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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ I run with an idiot

Posted by: warrior_allanon May 6 2006, 10:58 PM

Alright guys, i need a little advice. I have a player in the group i play with that is a complete moron. For instance, in the game today he took over an hour just to get to the arcology and purchace 2 drones and then tells a level 1 contact to pay the last 35000 and sign for the drones when they are delivered in the morning.

now in the kids defense he is still a rather new player and 3ed isnt the easiest game to learn. But, he takes stupidity to a new level. what do i do about him.

Posted by: Sharaloth May 6 2006, 11:02 PM

Talk to them about the SR world and 'realism'. Make him understand that people in the game will react more or less like people in real life, and that Level 1 contacts are not there to pay your bills, but to provide useful information pertaining to their particular specialty and/or other perks of 'knowing the right people'.

Also, direct him to the CLUE files so that he may learn from the failures of others. From the example you've given he just seems new to RPG in general, and not actually stupid. If he's actually stupid, this initial period of explanation may take a looooong time.

Posted by: Fire Hawk May 6 2006, 11:02 PM

Your only example reflects a person who doesn't seem to comprehend that usually, an acquaintance isn't going to shell 35k¥ just out of the kindness of his heart; you're going to have to provide more definitive proof of this players' supposed "idiocy".

Sure, this gross assumption of common social habits is rather dense, but it just isn't enough on its own for us to help out.

EDIT: Yes, the CLUE files are a good thing. Every potentially stupid/munchkin/rules-lawyer player should read them.

Posted by: Dog May 6 2006, 11:15 PM

Give him a few chances, maybe he'll turn out to be a good player, if you invest some time in him. If not, maybe just drop him. The nature of your relationship outside of gaming is pretty important. Can you tell us more about that?

Posted by: hyzmarca May 6 2006, 11:22 PM

Is the contact a lacky, a stooge, a minion or a cronie? If so, it might not be unreasonable.

Posted by: emo samurai May 6 2006, 11:28 PM

Anyone that indebted to him would have a much higher loyalty rating.

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 7 2006, 02:38 PM

Drown him like an unwanted puppy.

no?

Too much? Ok just work with him. a little work and he should handle it. maybe burn him just a little. Like his contact signs for the drones, and a few weeks later the drone contact calls about "when do I get paid?"
"I left the mnoey with the firend who too kthe drones"
"He said you'd pay us later"

did the contact pocket the money, or did the drone 'salesman' pocket it and figure the lack of closeness between the player and contact were there would be a problem with the communications.

No blood shed here but he's out more nuyen if he wants his drone salesman contact happy.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 7 2006, 09:24 PM

Just make him play Rainbow Six. I think everything will fall into place after that.

Posted by: eidolon May 7 2006, 09:32 PM

Here's a reminder: You were new to the game once too.

Here's an opinion: "Newb bashing" is lame. This includes any and all spiteful "burning" of the new player's character done just because he's new and doesn't play the game exactly like you do.

Here's some advice: First rule of gaming: don't be a jackass.
Be nice, play nice. Teach him the game (the best method of teaching is doing in the case of RPGs), let him read your books, suggest movies to him that you think get the feel across, and above all, just be patient with him. He'll pick it up.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 7 2006, 09:43 PM

QUOTE (eidolon)

Here's an opinion: "Newb bashing" is lame. This includes any and all spiteful "burning" of the new player's character done just because he's new and doesn't play the game exactly like you do.

Heh, I have a vaguely funny story about that.

Once upon a time a new guy came to my SR gaming group while I was GMing. This was many years ago. Anyway, I wanted to keep population levels up so I was being as nice as I could to the guy, yadda yadda yadda.

Then, I left the gaming group for the summer. When I came back at the end of the summer that new guy was gone. Apparently the other players had, like, driven him off with torches and pitchforks while I was gone. The others told me that the new guy was too much like "a retarded younger brother". I blinked and then life went on.

Come to think of it, I have played with people who were generally really awesome and kickass to play with but boy oh boy if some of them couldn't put the hating on people they didn't like in the game.

To tell the truth, though, I feel like I kind of went through an initiation of hate when I started playing SR and I think it made me a stronger player. The first SR GM I had was back in high school. I had read a couple of the really old SR novels and I was really digging the 80s ness. I forgot the title of the book because I honestly read it so long ago but it had an elf who had sensei flashbacks and who at one point wore a ukata with a Japanese beer company logo stamped on it. That's the 80s right there, and if I had to point to a single thing that got me playing SR it was probably the sensei-flashback elf with the beer yukata.

Anyway, my first GM was a textbook killer GM. I was often his only player because when other people joined in he'd usually pick on them, make their characters do stupid things by taking every statement literally, and he'd kill us off all the time. He would run modules (the one with Bichu in Amazonia) and I remember we tried it twice but everyone got killed off each time. Heh, he even would do things to make your character look dumb. Like in the Amazonia module I had this shaman who asked the Johnson, "what kinds of awakened creatures can we expect," and he had the Johnson retort, "That's YOUR area of expertise, right?".

The thing is that after rolling up new characters every other game for several years I am at the point when pdeath dosen't bother me. I can now seek real challenges in gaming and apply myself to the challenge presented by the module and at the same time not get all bent out of shape just because my guy dies. In fact, with future GMs, I would often make weak characters so I could maintain the same level of challenge.

My killer GM from high school was kind of like the Wheel of Pain from Conan the Barbarian. By pushing the wheel endlessly in a circle during my formative years I've built myself into a RPG player who can feel proud of himself today. I can say that I feel like I'm a matured challenge-seeker but I got the mental training for that by spending years with a killer GM and going through countless new characters.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 7 2006, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Anyone that indebted to him would have a much higher loyalty rating.

SR3 doesn't have loyalty ratings. Instead the rating of a contact is determined by the character's relationship with that contact. A Level 1 contact is an "aquaintance". A hired stooge with low self-esteem can easily fit into that mold. Level 2 contact is a Buddy and in an evil organization that is pushing dangerously close to being your Number 2.

Posted by: James McMurray May 8 2006, 02:06 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Like in the Amazonia module I had this shaman who asked the Johnson, "what kinds of awakened creatures can we expect," and he had the Johnson retort, "That's YOUR area of expertise, right?".

That may have been a valid reply. If the Johnson has no knowledge of paranormal critters he would probably assume that the group's mage did. I know I've used replies like taht in the past.

Posted by: Voran May 8 2006, 02:12 AM

New guys I don't mind. Any type of player, new or old, who intentionally acts the idiot, I don't like in the group In this case, since he's new, it seems he's got a different sorta viewset on what is 'reality' of the sr world. You can also use real world examples.

Look, a Level 1 contact is like the gamestore clerk/owner you chat with alot when you go to buy your SR gamebooks, the guy you've bought stuff from for years. You know him through that store, but you don't hang out with him. You guys talk about gamestuff, maybe new comics due out, and lament about the BS comic/game companies put the customer through.

Now. Are you going to ask him for 35000 dollars?

Posted by: Voran May 8 2006, 02:21 AM

On something of a side note, I'm reading the clue files and in some cases I'm noting its not so much the chars being idiots, but gm being kinda lordish. I'm just thinking in some cases there should be a 'common sense or character sense' kinda roll you can make. I'm a normal dude with no shadowrunner experience, but my char who's an experienced runner should be able to make some sorta roll to see if he remembers or notices he's going to need a particular item for a particular mission before the mission starts.

My char forgetting to bring a rope or a flashlight or something because me the player didn't remember to write it down isn't really fair. But that's just me. The alternate I see to that ends up with chars who write everything down just in case. "Is that Tankbot on my requisition form going to be useful today?"

Edit: In fact, the more I read stuff, the more I wonder why the GM didn't halt half the stuff in the middle to see what the hell the player was doing. You wanna be an idiot on your own time, fine, but when you're purposefully screwing over other players and their chars, that's a GM fault.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 8 2006, 02:24 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 7 2006, 04:43 PM)

Like in the Amazonia module I had this shaman who asked the Johnson, "what kinds of awakened creatures can we expect," and he had the Johnson retort, "That's YOUR area of expertise, right?".

That may have been a valid reply. If the Johnson has no knowledge of paranormal critters he would probably assume that the group's mage did. I know I've used replies like taht in the past.

The truth is I forgot the details of that module and why the PCs were being hired, so I can't really comment anymore on how knowledgable the Johnson should have been. Nevertheless, though, in the context of this particular GM I think he was just trying to wiggle out of giving me any information.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 May 8 2006, 01:01 PM

QUOTE (Voran)

Sadly all-too-common.

About 1/2 of the CLUE file material/ idiot player stories are the players being disconnected with the way the DM sees the "reality", a further 1/4th is the DM being a jackass, and the remaining 1/4th is the players being retarded.

Not knowing that the world of Shadowrun is not so dystopian and miserable that the cops won't give up on you if you throw some egg in their face, throw some bullets at them, and then escape the car chase? That's the players being out of touch with how the DM sees the game world.

Forgetting to write down flashlights and then finding themselves stuck in a sewer by a trash truck whose wheels just happened to park on the manhole cover? That's the DM being a jackass.

Deciding to fly a plane (with no piloting experiance) full of explosives into a crowded stadium to kill one person, and then using a rubber life-raft, some directed exploseves and a piece of metal as an improved safety device? That's the players being retarded.

Posted by: blakkie May 8 2006, 01:12 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ May 8 2006, 07:01 AM)

Forgetting to write down flashlights and then finding themselves stuck in a sewer by a trash truck whose wheels just happened to park on the manhole cover? That's the DM being a jackass.

Welcome to the age-old drilled in D&D bean counting mentality of if the "[ubiquitous] item isn't written on the character sheet the character doesn't have it". The player didn't take the time to write down boots? Your character is walking barefoot! Nevermind that the character would have noticed when walking out the front door that they were in their socks.

P.S. A hint to try counter such stupid from a GM is to write a couple vague items on the inventory list with names in the form "Xxxx Kit".

The Survival Kit is a great example where the list of it's contents includes the catchall "and more". Not complete protection against a Dungeonmaster In Complete Kontrol, but for any D.I.C.K. it doesn't innoculate you against you really have to wonder why you are at their table.

Posted by: Oracle May 8 2006, 01:15 PM

Thank <select-random-divine-entity> that my players and me are close friends and we all want to enjoy a nice friday evening when playing. ^^

Posted by: nezumi May 8 2006, 02:09 PM

QUOTE (blakkie)

The player didn't take the time to write down boots? Your character is walking barefoot! Nevermind that the character would have noticed when walking out the front door that they were in their socks.

No, most likely he'd be naked except for his armor. I still remember the day I arrested half the group because they walked outside wearing nothing but armored jackets! Boy, the guy in the trenchcoat felt pretty lucky that day. Short campaign though. Hmm...

Seriously though, WR's story is a neat example of how a single player grew to meet the challenge. But how many prospective players dropped out? At this point, with Shadowrun taking up such a small market share and with SR3 disappearing, I would prefer to have more players of lesser caliber than a few like WR, since I'm more likely to enjoy a game with the paltry players here in MD than a game with WR in Micronesia (it would be a killer commute).

Be gentle. All newbies should have the 'common sense' flaw for free. All PCs starting with a new GM should have 'common sense' for the first two runs, until everything is sorted out. Unless you explain what you're expecting and what they're doing wrong, they'll never have a chance to correct it. But while you should be gentle, don't be TOO gentle. If the guy is simply going off on hair-brained schemes, enforce the rules.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 8 2006, 02:27 PM

Everyone that doesn't have Licking Electrical Outlets as an artistic knowledge skill for Centering should get Common Sense for free.

Posted by: Fix-it May 8 2006, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Everyone that doesn't have Licking Electrical Outlets as an artistic knowledge skill for Centering should get Common Sense for free.

That's defninitely going on my next character sheet...

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 8 2006, 04:22 PM

I prefer "Licking Plasma Screens"

Then ya actually do so for the GM

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 8 2006, 11:13 PM

QUOTE (blakkie)

Welcome to the age-old drilled in D&D bean counting mentality of if the "[ubiquitous] item isn't written on the character sheet the character doesn't have it".

Actually, I try to enforce that to create more of a challenge and problem solving type game. It makes the players take the time to think about items they might need in common situations (a lighter, for example, or a claw hammer) and go through the trouble to bring them. If the players want to make a D.I.C.K. list of items they always bring that's perfectly acceptable. But I think that it detracts from the game if the PCs are able to conjure a hacksaw or a lighter just because they need it even though they obviously weren't thinking about these things before they left their base.

Besides, if you start to allow wiggle room then you have difficulty drawing a firm line. If it's OK for a character to magically have a lighter or a flashlight just because she needs one maybe it's OK to suddenly have a maglite in her hand when she's attacked in melee so she can magically roll clubs 6 (12) instead of unarmed combat 3. If it's OK for the covert ops specialist to magically have a lockpicking kit for a non-maglocked door alongside the set of maglock passkeys that were noted on his character sheet how can I say that he dosen't have a concealed set of lockpicks under his wristwatch which he can use to pick his handcuffs when he gets captured?

If I want to emphasize challenges and puzzles that the characters must overcome one thing we must be perfectly clear about is the helpful equipment they have and do not have. I think it's better to have the PCs mess up one day and then make a D.I.C.K. list than it is for them to just be sprouting the right item at the right time as though they were a team of Swiss Army knives on legs.

Posted by: Voran May 9 2006, 01:00 AM

I think there needs to be a balance tho. You can set up an environment to encourage the players themselves to think ahead, but in the context of the fictional characters they portray. When it stops being fun, and becomes bean-counting, there should be changes.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 9 2006, 01:27 AM

Well, that's why kits are useful. One can assume that the tool kit in the trunk of your car contains a maglight. One can assume that the tool kit in the trunk of your car contains several inexpensive items that are quite useless in combat.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 02:05 AM

QUOTE (Voran)

2 points.

1.) I kinda feel like chargen is already bean counting. A lot of times I take low Resources because otherwise I'll end up spending about 20 minutes making my physad and maybe an hour spending each last starting nuyen on equipment scattered throughout the sourcebooks. In other words I think the biggest source of beancounting is really the large amount of resources you get at chargen and not so much people forgetting to bring a cigarette lighter.

2.) If the players are serious about having Batman levels of preparedness there only needs to be bean counting once. As soon as they put together their D.I.C.K. list nobody really needs to think about it anymore besides for adding the occasional useful item.

Posted by: eidolon May 9 2006, 02:19 AM

QUOTE (blakkie)

Yes, because that's a D&D phenomenon, not a "jackass GM" phenomenon.

A good balance between "the character would know/have/think of that" and the "magically have anything you need" isn't all that hard to strike. I tend to go with the notion that if it's pretty common, or related to the character in some way, they have it (and I'm talking fairly trivial things here, like a lighter in the case of "common" and lockpicks in the case of a "thief"). If it's something that requires a fairly good expenditure, I have them deduct that total from their monies. No big deal.

However, I won't just grant, in the case of a D&D party, free healing potions because they didn't buy any in town even though I mentioned that there was an apothecary. Or in SR, a HMG on the notion that "their characters would have been carrying one".

It's harder to describe in writing than it actually ends up being during games.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 02:57 AM

QUOTE (eidolon)

However, I won't just grant, in the case of a D&D party, free healing potions because they didn't buy any in town even though I mentioned that there was an apothecary. Or in SR, a HMG on the notion that "their characters would have been carrying one".

"But my character is a healing-dedicated cleric! Of *course* he has some of those 1st edition herbal healing droughts that cure 1d3 damage per day when you drink one!"

"But my character is a healing-dedicated cleric! Of *course* he has sterile bandages and isopropyl rubbing alcohol so there's no way that anyone will get complications off of their wounds!"

"But my character is a healing-dedicated cleric! Of *course* he knows how to make potions out of mushrooms that will totally cure the fighter of the poison before he dies!"

That's what I'd be afraid of.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 9 2006, 03:18 AM

my responses

1: we're playing 3.5 not first ed

2: fair enough

3: make a heal check

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 May 9 2006, 03:59 AM

1d3 damage and bandages? I woulden't begrudge him those.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 04:23 AM

This thread is making me chuckle because I had put up those three examples as annoying bullshit, but then 2 GMs log on and are like, "Hmm, most of those are reasonable."

I guess I'm just a bigger, "it must be noted on your character sheet" purist than most GMs. Well, that's good to know; I wouldn't have guessed it otherwise.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 9 2006, 04:44 AM

I don't play D&D3.5. My first reaction to the mention of a Dragon with 40 AC was that that dragon must be a wingless quadrapalegic with a hide like wet toilet paper to be so easy to injure.

However, I'd certainly let a cleric carry an item called a "first aid kit" which may contain bandages, alcohol, and maybe even a 0d6 damage scalpel.

Posted by: PoorHobo May 9 2006, 04:46 AM

All the GM's I've played with have gone by that rule (if you didn't write it down, you don't have it) In DnD you start with a pari of clothes (which includes boots in the decription) and said clothes do not count against oyur weight total. So for all intenets and purposes everycharacter has clothes all the time.

Shadowrun GMs usually give out a set of free clothes. Smelly tshirt. Faded jeans and some second hand combat boots. I don't really agree with that, and I like DnD's approach ot it. If yo want something special besides day to day street clothes, suits tuxedos etc... then yeah. those cost extra.

But everything else had better be written down.. Add to the fact that shadowrun is situational. load out will change everytime you walk out the door. From getting munchies, to infiltrating the corps christmas party, to robbing banks and data steals you are not always going to have a toolkit and an assault rifle, a flashlight and field biological kit. Sometimes its just a pistol, two hairpins, and some chewing gum.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 9 2006, 04:58 AM

There is always the good old seperate availability rolls for a toothbrush and a tube of toothpaste. There comes a point where the little things are just too small to worry about. Which is why the kit idea for small items that should be grouped together is not a bad idea. The electronics tool kit contains every tool you'll need when working on electronics. The medkit contains every tool you'll need for basic first aid. The personal hygiene kit contains every tool your need to keep yourself clean and hygienic. Ect.

Posted by: warrior_allanon May 9 2006, 05:00 AM

Alright i have listened to what you all have said, and while yes with some time this person might learn, but a lot of his "stupidity" is due to childishness and being a sheltered teenager. He is our "Bean counter" when it comes to pillaging the bodies of the fallen for better or saleable gear. He's the person that will suggest trying to bunjee jump to get to an objective when there is no way to get above the objective short of a helo and that cant be used due to obvious surface to air emplacements.

The contact was his landlord of his only doss, and he was trying to fence stolen drones through the Renraku arcology to buy his new ones. Really and truly he is sometimes worse than the 8 year old son of the GM who plays when the GM is running his D&D game.

I would point him to the Clue files except that he is to dense and thinks to highly of himself to think that they apply to him. As for drowning him like an unwanted puppy, dont tempt me, several times we have tried to kill his character and even more have i wanted to put an end to his life IRL due to the stupid frustration he has caused. In DNA/DOA we left him knocked out by DMSO Narcojet capsule rounds in a room where there was also a sleeping beast who had been put out with DMSO Gamma scopalamine. Maria Murcurial we sent him in through the bottom door and he pulled hand of god. Queen Euphoria he didnt even play, thank the gods.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 9 2006, 05:40 AM

next run, when you get a reason (excuse) shoot him if ya aren't the GM... he has already used his HoG

Posted by: hyzmarca May 9 2006, 05:53 AM

Don't be passive aggressive. Be honest with the player.

Posted by: blakkie May 9 2006, 06:13 AM

QUOTE (eidolon @ May 8 2006, 08:19 PM)

Yes, because that's a D&D phenomenon, not a "jackass GM" phenomenon.

There is at least one specific "if it's not on the sheet they don't have it" quote somewhere in the AD&D text. It might even be in 3e somewhere, i couldn't say. So it isn't limited to D&D, but there are very deep roots there.

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

1.) I kinda feel like chargen is already bean counting. A lot of times I take low Resources because otherwise I'll end up spending about 20 minutes making my physad and maybe an hour spending each last starting nuyen on equipment scattered throughout the sourcebooks. In other words I think the biggest source of beancounting is really the large amount of resources you get at chargen and not so much people forgetting to bring a cigarette lighter.

The big chunks? Maybe a bit in SR3, but that definately not in SR4 where they got rid of the non-linear steps in the chargen Resource progression and replaced it with 1BP = 5K increments. The big parts get straightened away quickly. It's the last 2K that chews up the time.

But in both another culprit is the spend it or loose it rule helping out the "if it's not on the list you don't have it" mentality. They helped a bit in SR4 with allowing the use of the last 1200

(in multiples of 100) to convert to solid cash with the higher Lifestyles, but with the lower lifestyles it is effectively back to use it or lose it. Really, what is the harm of just letting someone keep as cash whatever falls under 5K?

In fact what the hell is really the harm of letting anyone that wants something mundane and under 100

just freaking have it. If you feel you must track cash track it in the 100's of

. Or 500's or higher for that matter if it suits the level your characters are at. Really, if someone is shelling out several K a month for a Lifestyle, and more for contact upkeep, do they really need to track dropping 10

for a bowl of ramen noodles or 50

for a box of bandages?

You are interested in encouraging them to think their way through a puzzle? Why not let them worry about the puzzle senario itself when it comes up instead of trying to guess ahead of time what might be out there and having a freaking list the length of an arm.

They come up against some obstacle they free think about what they could try to over come that. Then either look at their character and fairly judge whether they'd have something like that or not. Flashlight? No-fucking-brainer; yes. Charles & Di Commemerative China Plate? Not so much. Wad of chewing gum or a zippo? I don't think i would if they were in their vehicle, and especially if they weren't at home. Hey, why not...but go ahead and roll for it if you like.

Ya, you heard me. You can't judge if someone would have a freaking piece of gum or a lighter then let the dice decide for you. After all it is the character that is suppose to know to get this stuff, NOT the player.

Or if they are somewhere where they can buy the stuff have them go over to the vending machine and get it....and don't even worry about them knocking the cash of their bean counting total!

QUOTE

2.) If the players are serious about having Batman levels of preparedness there only needs to be bean counting once. As soon as they put together their D.I.C.K. list nobody really needs to think about it anymore besides for adding the occasional useful item.

Why bother with it at all? It is taking the focus OFF the solution of the puzzle senario of the moment, and dampening creativity.

EDIT: Ya, that's a bit on the RANT side of things.

Please try not to take it too personally WR, it isn't really you. It's my pet opinion of the month.

Posted by: James McMurray May 9 2006, 06:53 AM

QUOTE

if someone is shelling out several K a month for a Lifestyle, and more for contact upkeep, do they really need to track dropping 10 for a bowl of ramen noodles or 50 for a box of bandages?

Stuff like that is included in a lifestyle. Taking it out of the house with you on a run is not.

I'm definitely a "if it ain't written it don't exist" GM most of the time. If something is relatively minor and doesn't appear on the equipment charts, but is something the chracter would have (a lighter for a smoker) then sure. But if it's something they could buy just by thumbing through the charts then no way.

I also tend to ask "what are you bringing with you" whenever the general situation changes (social to run time to subterfuge time etc.). That's their cue to take a quick mental inventory and decide what they want. If it turns out they want something they don't have written down that wouldn't be covered by lifestyle and/or is on the charts, they'd better swing by the Motts 5 and 10 to pick one up on the way.

If that's being a D.I.C.K. then almost every GM I've ever played with is one. GMs that use the touchy-feely "you can have what you want" crap are P.U.S.S.Y.s (I'll try and figure a meaning for that acronym later

Posted by: BnF95 May 9 2006, 12:52 PM

Hmmm ... as a long-time GM I tend to be a bit more lax to newer players, but when you have some rules-lawyers around, sometimes you just have to start bean-counting. As an example, I have this player who refuses to write anything on the equipment section of his character sheet. At the start of a run, Imago, he claims to have not brought anything illegal on the semi-ballistic to Scotland, then during the first fight scene, he claimed that he would never leave home without at least 4 pistols and a SMG on his person. Which gave the other PCs (and co-GMs) the reason to vote for the "if it ain't on your sheet, you ain't got it" houserule.

Posted by: nezumi May 9 2006, 01:32 PM

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

next run, when you get a reason (excuse) shoot him if ya aren't the GM... he has already used his HoG

I agree. Kick down his sand castle then throw dirt in his eyes. That'll teach him to be immature.

Posted by: James McMurray May 9 2006, 02:59 PM

Sigged!

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 10 2006, 01:33 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

After reading this whole page carefully I would just like to point out that carrying a first aid kit if you want bandages, scissors, antiseptics, a thermal blanket, athletic tape, popsicle sticks, and a CPR barrier is a perfectly acceptable solution. It's possible to think ahead and bring a basic first aid kit (for example) if you don't necessarily want to get stuck in writing each and every last item including the popsicle sticks down.

Posted by: eidolon May 10 2006, 01:47 AM

Pssh. I've got a partially stocked CLS bag with more than that in it.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 10 2006, 02:13 AM

If you wanted to get detailed you could always go and look up the contents of either basic or advanced first aid kits on google and then just tell the GM, "my character carries one of those around."

Posted by: Voran May 10 2006, 05:41 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

DOn't be passive agressive. Be honest with the player.

THEN smack him.

Posted by: Dog May 11 2006, 01:07 AM

If you want to save chargen and purchase time, you can create your own kits. Like an "urban explorer" kit with flashlight, multitool, stuff like that. Or maybe a "barhopping" kit with level 1 fake ID, hold-out pistol, low-light contacts, etc.

It's not really something you'd get shrink-wrapped at the store, but it'd represent a bunch of boring shopping time.

Posted by: ronin3338 May 11 2006, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ May 9 2006, 12:40 AM)

next run, when you get a reason (excuse) shoot him if ya aren't the GM... he has already used his HoG

Unfortunately, we've used this option in our game

We had a player who would do stupid, silly stuff. He was a physad, and would run across a firefight so he could "death-touch" somebody. He often made rash decisions that would put the rest of the team, and the objective in jeopardy.

He was underground, following the rigger's recon drone (unarmed stealth rotor). they were looking for a "nest" of vampires to save a kid. He discovered the nest, and despite my "are you sure you want to do that?" and the fact that the rest of the team was above ground, over 6 blocks away, he went charging in.
1 physad + MMG + no sense - 5 vampires = dead character.
He got upset and left. He came back the week after with the character's brother as his new PC. We gave him another chance.

On a mission to infiltrate a small island, they were sneaking up to a sentry post in a Zodiac, no lights, under cover of night, when at about 10 yards from shore he decides to go Normandy, jump out the boat and charge the beach. The sniper, who had been patiently waiting for his shot on a guard, simply pulled the trigger as the Dimwit 2.0 crossed his line of fire.

Sometimes you have to smoke'em. It's a last resort, but everybody breathed a sigh of relief when he didn't come back.

Posted by: Telion May 16 2006, 09:50 PM

Over 90% of my games involved a team kill, at some point certain people in our group would have a six pack of characters. it became a past time for awhile, but it completely removed the mission from the equation, after about the first 30 minutes of each mission the character was killed and nothing was left to do in the mission since everything was fubar.

its no wonder we made the clue files, though this one can't be the worst of our tales.
check sig for the clue file story.

Posted by: Witness May 16 2006, 10:09 PM

When it comes to those 'did you think to bring that item' situations, I've found asking for 'foresight' rolls seems to work well. Intuition+Logic with the GM deciding mods as appropriate.

Posted by: Calvin Hobbes May 16 2006, 10:17 PM

Our group charges a point of good karma for item teleportation.

Posted by: Teulisch May 16 2006, 11:44 PM

I know a couple idiots. they come in different flavors.

the first kind, is the 'class clown'. he has chaotic-neutral daffy duck behavior, and does whatever he thinks of at the time with no regard for consequences or the impact on the rest of the group. he just wants to be the center of attention, and thinks he can do anything. If you identify one of these in your group, and your not playing Toon, kick them out at once.

then you get the bastards. they know better, but they want to greif the other players for some reason. their the ones who break the game when they start to get bored, and may bully the other characters. they will kill another guys character, just because they can. they fall into the 'drow assasin' stereotype. Best way to deal with this, is to simply disallow deliberate greifing, and kick them from the group if they insist on repeating the behavior excessively.

then theres the ADD gamer. atention deficit, they will go off to watch tv or play cards mid-game. they will not come back when its their turn. you may as well forget to tell them when the next game is, its not like their going to play anyway.

The Lazy Slacker will just sit there, and only respond to direct questions. they need help creating a character, and then cant recall what they can or cannot do. they have not read anything about the setting, and are probably either confused or uninterested. They are playing because their freinds talked them into playing.

the honest noob is actualy not a bad thing. they just need you to explain some things to them. you have the chance to teach them how to game, and avoid the many problems some people create.

Posted by: Voran May 17 2006, 12:20 AM

Ugh, my sympathies for those who deal with the CN 'chaotic retard' player char. I'd prefer to run in a group with half a dozen true noobs than 1 chaoticstupid type.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 17 2006, 06:11 PM

One solution I've found to the whole "of COURSE I have this on me" question is to ask players to draw up 3 lists. The first list is what I'd find on them if I bumped into them on the street when they're not working. The second list is what I'd find on them if they were trying to sneak into some place and feeling paranoid. The third list is what I'd find if they were assaulting some place and feeling aggressive.

Any player who says "But my character would always have that on him!" when I ask about some particular piece of gear he seems to have forgotten is usually allowed to have that piece of gear... and gets a little note under his chunk of my GM binder that says "character always carries his X." Occasionally, that statement comes back to haunt them.

Posted by: Witness May 17 2006, 10:24 PM

Yup. Like that.

Posted by: Dog May 17 2006, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (Calvin Hobbes)

Our group charges a point of good karma for item teleportation.

Brilliant! I'm stealing that!

Posted by: Unrest May 18 2006, 01:46 AM

I'm one of the biggest player's rights lawyers you will deal with and even I agree that if its not on the sheet they don't have it. Though I won't go so far as to make them list every little item. I'm with the previously mentioned kit idea. Several of my past shadow run players would visit hardware stores before jobs and make a quick purchase. The item on their sheet was called "General hardware supplies" and consisted of any hammers, flashlights and most minor stuff like that. Like always keep it simple if you can.

Posted by: FanGirl May 18 2006, 03:46 AM

Actually, item teleportation happened to me in my last session, but it was the GM who did it.

[flashback]
Me: No cameras in the room? Hmm, how can I see inside...
Emo: You can use your Fly-By drone.
Me: I have a Fly-By drone?
Emo: Yeah, you looted it last time. (Note: I put everything I wanted to loot in my gear listing. Drones were not listed among the loot.)
Me (laughing): Okay! I send it in!
[/flashback]

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 03:47 AM

LOL!

Posted by: Voran May 18 2006, 04:58 AM

As I consider it more, I think this should be one of the things that you cover in your initial getting to know each other session of an RPG campaign. Players asking DM's what the expectations are, DM's asking players what their expectations are.

A "Dude, so do we have to put EVERYTHING down on paper, or what's the balance we're using" would go a long way to avoiding mid game problems. A "And are you pretty consistent with that view" kinda question is also important. Cause I've had GMs that like to change things up midstream without telling us. A midstream change isn't always bad in itself, sometimes its a logical progression from a particular instance, but that still needs to be given to the players before it gets 'enforced'.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 May 18 2006, 05:48 AM

our team generally has a couple differently packed courier bags or backpacks w/ combat webbing for appropriate occasions. They'd put a strip of different colored duct tape on each bag, and hav e it pre-packed . Red bag for demolitions run, blue for stealth, green for every day, that sort of thing. THen each character has one sheet of paper with a list of what they have in every bag, plus individual differences listed.

This came up after the team was screwed over by a specter using telekinesis. The guy had been tortured on a barbwire rack, so he used that pn the palyers. After two PC's ended up tied down w/ Barbed wire to the rack, they all went out and got wire clippers, and started the bag deal.

Posted by: Tarantula May 18 2006, 06:53 AM

See, with the sewer thing, as long as they said they were going to bring a flashlight from home/their car, I'd let it fly, the first time. Thats covered under lifestyle/vehicle upkeep costs. Reoccuring basis? Spend the ¥50 on the flashlight and write it down.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 18 2006, 07:15 AM

GM: (looking at character sheet) This is all you're carrying to the meet?
Player: Yeah.
GM: Are you sure you don't want any other gear?
Player: I'm good. I don't think it is wise to carry my heavy weapons into a fancy nightclub.

Later

GM: You get out of your car in front of the nightclub. (roll perception) You notice several people staring at you and gawking. Others are running away from you. An ork mother covers her young child's eyes.

Player: I walk into the club

GM: The bouncer stops you. "Sir, we have a dress code here"

Player: "A dress code? Do you know how much this coat costs? It is a Mortimer of London Ulysses. It cost 4000 nuyen I bet that's more than you make in a month. " (Rolls fast talk)

GM: The bouncer is not phased. "It isn't appropriate"

Player: "Fine." I get back in my car and drive away.

GM: As you are walking to your car a Lone Star officier stops you. "Get down on the ground and put your hands behind your head." His weapon is drawn.

Player: I draw my SMG and give him a two bursts. (Rolls initiative) (Rolls skill with all combar pool)

GM: He goes down.

Player: I rush to my car and haul ass.

Later

Trisha Takanawa: One of Lone Star's finest, officier Michael Hunt, was guned down today when he tried to arrest a suspect for indecent exposire. The murder attempted to enter this posh Seatle nightclub wearing nothing but an open duster, frightening small children and causing distress to elderly widows. You are about to see grusome survailance footage of the killing. Take a close look at the perpertrator, especially the unsual birthmark on his penis. If you know this man or his penis plase call your local police agency or crimestoppers. You don't have to identify yourself but there is a 40,000 nuyen reward for any information leading to his capture.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 07:18 AM

I'd slap a GM that tried to tell me I was walking around naked. Ok, I wouldn't slap him. I don't resort to violence that easily. But I would be really pissed and would either have some words for him or just wouldn't play any more.

Posted by: Tarantula May 18 2006, 07:41 AM

Even at the least, it'd be buttoned up. Plus, a ulysses coat adds 50% concealability to anything under it. Considering I'd say its probably no bigger than an average light pistol (unless he was a troll), it'd be anywhere from a 7-10 TN to spot it. Frankly, they'd probably see the SMG first.

Posted by: SL James May 18 2006, 08:33 AM

Maybe he's John Holmes' stunt dick in a previous life.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 18 2006, 10:46 AM

You see, he forgot to turn his Mr. Studd off form the last time he made a seduction test.
If everything has to be written down and they don't write down clothes then they must be naked.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 05:24 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

If everything has to be written down and they don't write down clothes then they must be naked.

No, it just means that they won't have any fancy or armored clothes. They'll be wearing whatever their lifestyle dictates.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 18 2006, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 18 2006, 12:24 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 18 2006, 05:46 AM)

If everything has to be written down and they don't write down clothes then they must be naked.

No, it just means that they won't have any fancy or armored clothes. They'll be wearing whatever their lifestyle dictates.

The automatic wearing of clothes brings up other problems, like when the character should be or intends to be nude.

The proper GM response to a player neglecting to include clothes would be to point out the mistake and suggest that it be corrected. As I said before, if the character doesn't stick his tongue in electrical outlets he should have Common Sense.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 05:41 PM

If he's supposed to be naked or intends to be naked he should say so. Telling them to wear clothes works just fine, telling them they've gone to the meet naked doesn't..

Posted by: Cang May 18 2006, 08:00 PM

one thing that helps me as a gm and friend of a .... special case.... i made him take a positive quality called "common sense". With this, everytime he does something boneheaded, the gm will tell something that will nudge against it or might just tell him that is a completly bad idea. It helps alot, makes him learn the ropes, and helps the game move along.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 18 2006, 09:59 PM

I usually assume that things head towards their default state if people haven't said otherwise. This means that guns are holstered, runners are clothed, and 20 pounds of C-12 are still at home unless you've told me otherwise.

Posted by: Telion May 18 2006, 10:05 PM

QUOTE

I've also used this strategy, works good for characters getting used to the system, even the not so special cases find this helpful to avoid lapses into stupidity. typically I implement this as an edge, depending on the difficulty of the person in need I change the price of the edge. not all players have the same experience so I find adding something like this can bring some players up to the veterens level. Just avoid using this a means to railroad an adventure.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 18 2006, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

That's the sort of thing my first SR GM would sometimes pull, although that particular gag was more common when we played D&D. In any case, I feel it was my role playing Wheel of Pain because in the end it made me able to deal with all sorts of PC calamity and still have fun.