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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Riggers, Drones and SR4

Posted by: Kiedo May 7 2006, 02:26 AM

I searched but admittedly my google-fu is weak.

I was reading up on drones, because I wanted to make a hacker character who dabbled in rigging under SR4, and noticed that when I read the paragraph discussing Jumping in to drones it says:

QUOTE (SR4 book pg.239)

Riggers may also take a Complex Action and "jump into" a drone via full-VR.

But in the list of Rigger actions right below it it says:

QUOTE (SR4 book pg.239)

Jump into/leave a drone (simple)
A rigger takes direct control of one drone in full-VR mode, or leaves it.

The action table(on pg. 349) also cites it as a simple action, so I guess my question is, how have you or your GM's been handling it, my opinion is that since there are two places that say it's a simple and one claiming it's a complex action, my first thought is to go with simple action. But I'd like to know what you think.

Also the errata as of version 1.3 (the latest I found on srrpg.com) it was not included as an error.

Posted by: Aaron May 7 2006, 04:38 AM

Looks to me like one vote for complex and two for simple.

I'd go with simple.

Posted by: hobgoblin May 7 2006, 04:30 PM

hmm, in older versions i think it was a simple action to jump in, and another to leave. so to switch drone you had to use two simple...

Posted by: blakkie May 7 2006, 11:05 PM

I can't find it using Search either, but i seem to recall a thread way back in which it was suggested that it was Complex action to initiall jump in but only a Simple action to switch away to another active "window" or switch back to the "window" you are jumped in using.

Basically the longer Complex action is sort of a intial setup, and the Simple action is to reestablish somethig you have already set up. Not sure how well that jives with the rules text, but then again there are a few places where the vehicle rules don't even really jive with themselves.

Posted by: Kiedo May 8 2006, 02:27 AM

that actually sounds pretty reasonable to me. I think I might go with that until it's fixed by errata, or at least clarified.

Posted by: CrimsonHawk May 8 2006, 06:33 AM

well so far playing a drone rigger, I have been kicked out of my drones 5 times because of stun dropping from armor damage causing me to dumpshock out with 6 physical since i'm hotsim which is the only way to control drones from what I have read and been told (mainly I use a lynx) and have a couple of doverman's firing support for it. I'm still trying to figure out the term (swarm droner) what drones do they use since at the beginning it costs (30 to 40k:nuyen: per combat drone) to have a decent serviceable killing machine.

recently my lynx got nailed by a panther xxl gun in a drone balloon a mile up in the sky that shot every other turn since it had to move back into position and aim / reaquire target (all 3 of my drones had IWN's witch max range is 800m =( ) I had to wait for the technomancer to run through the nodes and get to it that was meanwhile I got dumpshocked again while I was working wounded with 5 physical wounds and was on death bead again taking 6 phyiscal from dump. so I cam to the conclusion I have the wrong drones for this type of work (what do you sugest?)

Thx Crimsonhawk

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 8 2006, 07:59 AM

a new GM

Posted by: Thanee May 8 2006, 08:09 AM

Yeah, your GM system is clearly malfunctioning.

Drone balloons with panther assault cannons... riiight!

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Oracle May 8 2006, 10:28 AM

I go with Kremlin's suggestion.

Posted by: Grinder May 8 2006, 10:40 AM

#4 here

did you talk to your GM?

Posted by: James McMurray May 8 2006, 03:32 PM

I'm curious about the price for your "decent servicable killing machine." 30K is about 15 times the book price for a doberman, and 6+ times the book price for a Steel Lynx. Upgrading their autosifts is necessary, but you can make copies of those programs so they're just a one time expenditure. Where is the rest of the money going?

Posted by: Jaid May 8 2006, 03:50 PM

other than that, i've never heard that you must be using hot sim to rig a vehicle.

also, wouldn't a biofeedback filter help with that?

and perhaps you should consider taking more drones, but less impressive.

for example, for under 5k nuyen, you can have a doberman with an alpha built in, iirc. sure, it's only rolling 6 dice on the attack... but considering you can have *8* of them for the price of your one really good drone, i think the investment is a better one =P

furthermore, there is absolutely nothing that says drones cannot use a smartlink... and a link can be built into your drone's sensor package for something like 500 nuyen iirc.

furthermore, with clearsight 3 and sensor 3, and by subscribing your drones to one another, you can share sensor information between them... meaning, on average, if they all (8 of them) attempt to gain sensor lock as their first action, that's should average out to 6 dice base + 2 dice per assisting drone for a total of 20 dice.

furthermore, having all those drones makes it a lot harder to tell which one is being actively rigged (if any) which makes it a lot harder to know which one to shoot =P

anyways, other than that, i have a few suggestions:

1) get yourself at least 1 flying drone. get it a weapon mount, and you may even want to choose your gun based on range (for example, a hunting rifle is fairly respectable if you load it up with ex-ex)

2) consider the implications of a gun, mounted on a drone, with a smart firing platform. the drone can take care of sensor checks and driving, while the platform does all the shooting. this may require that you put a scope on the gun to use the smartgun trick though. naturally, this costs a sizeable chunk more, though. it also most likely requires convincing your GM it's ok, even though it sounds perfectly reasonable to me (you just have a separate drone pilot controlling the gun, really. automated turrets don't suddenly become unrealistic or anything just because you mount them on a drone, IMO).

3) consider making other vehicles into drones. with their relatively low body, drones can be very fragile. perhaps a GMC bulldog would be a better choice to rig directly, as well as being able to actually store some of that drone swarm not to mention you can put a lot of weapon mounts on it. when combined with idea 2 up there, it should make your drones a lot more survivable.

Posted by: Aaron May 8 2006, 04:07 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

I don't have the book or the numbers in front of me, but in order to up the Autosofts and Pilot from 3 to 6, you also have to up the drone's System and Response from 3 (the default device rating for vehicles and drones) to 6. That can be pricey.

Posted by: James McMurray May 8 2006, 04:25 PM

Upping system and response to 5 (6 is a waste of money and not even available at chargen) is pretty cheap if you do it yourself. I also don't have the book handy, so can't give exact figures. I do know that a single Doberman + Ares Alpha combo for my rigger didn't cost over 10K, not including the programs. You're firing a wide long burst with 10 dice (12 if you spring for the smartlink, which i haven't). They may dodge the first couple, but fi you've got three of thsoe doing it, and the rest of the group also firing, they're in serious trouble. The underbarrel grenade launcher on the alpha is just icing on the cake.

Posted by: Butterblume May 8 2006, 05:11 PM

QUOTE (Aaron)

in order to up the Autosofts and Pilot from 3 to 6, you also have to up the drone's System and Response from 3 (the default device rating for vehicles and drones) to 6. That can be pricey.

Actually, the pilot program is the system program for a drone.

QUOTE (p.213)

Pilot programs represent a special type of OS—a system with specialized functions featuring semi-autonomous decision-making algorithms.
[...]
Pilot is used in place of System for vehicles, drones, and agents, but otherwise has the same function as System.

Posted by: Aaron May 8 2006, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (butterblume)

Actually, the pilot program is the system program for a drone.

Duly noted. Make that you have to buy the Response alone up to 6.

Posted by: kigmatzomat May 8 2006, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (CrimsonHawk)

I have been kicked out of my drones 5 ....since i'm hotsim which is the only way to control drones from what I have read and been told

Lies. You have 3 options:

1) use AR/display and your standard initiative to control the drone the same way you'd drive a car in a video game today. Use your normal initiatives. Alternately, you can Issue Commands (p221) which they obeys autonomously without any direct intervention by you.

2) Use (cold) VR to "jump in" the drone. Response+Intuition and 2 passes. -1 to all Vehicle Test thresholds.

3) use hot sim VR to "jump in" the drone. Response+Intuition+1 and 3 passes -1 to all Vehicle Test thresholds.

QUOTE

what drones do they use since at the beginning it costs (30 to 40k:nuyen: per combat drone) to have a decent serviceable killing machine.

I think everyone in your game has gone a little gonzo and the reason is:

QUOTE

recently my lynx got nailed by a panther xxl gun in a drone balloon a mile up in the sky that shot every other turn since it had to move back into position and aim / reaquire target (all 3 of my drones had IWN's witch max range is 800m =( )

Some people will say a blimp drone can't mount an autocannon but since blimps in WW2 toyed with launching airplanes, they can definitely be built to handle the recoil. BUT the expense would be horrible. It would need to weigh several hundred pounds to absorb the recoil, plus the bag would have to be reinforced so the shock didn't start tearing the fabric. Way, way, wayy too expensive for most any situation. Much easier to buy two much lighter armed blimp drones; one with a sniper rifle and one with a grenade launcher. Between those two weapons you can drop most anything you could with an assault cannon.

Drones in SR3 were mini-tanks that cost like the dickens. SR4 logic is that drones are cheap plastic devices that are dang near disposable. So instead of two 30,000Y maxed-out steroidal dobermans you'd have six 5,000Y dobermans. I'd imagine two "dog packs" of 3 stock dobermans would do as much or more damage as 1 Doberus Maximus.

Posted by: Nasrudith May 9 2006, 05:27 PM

Wait drones can't have an autocannon, the mounts limited to LMG and lighter. I think a HUGE panther canon counts as bigger then LMG.
The GM must have a vendeta aginst riggers or think you've become overpowered.

Posted by: kigmatzomat May 9 2006, 07:33 PM

It could be rigged vehicle. You can't tell me that a rigged Banshee can't have an autocannon.

But again, it's such a huge amount of overkill as to be ludicrous.

Posted by: James McMurray May 9 2006, 07:37 PM

It could be completely reasonable depending on where it happened. If you're raiding a Panther Assault Cannon manufacturing plant you can probably expect to see a few panthers. Likewise when going against the military you can expect heavier ordinance. If they were just hitting Joe's Bar and Grill (and Joe isn't an ex-panther manufacturing solder) then it's ove the top.

Posted by: kigmatzomat May 9 2006, 10:30 PM

Unless they are attacking Zepplin Inc, an autocannon toting inflatable drone is insane.

Posted by: James McMurray May 9 2006, 11:29 PM

Zeppelins have a signature so low you'll never see them. I don't have any books handy to know if they are large enough for a weapon mount or not. The recoil on a panther assault cannon is a hell of a lot less than on a full auto weapon, and can be completely negated with very little effort.

Typical? No. Logical? Not really, except in extremely odd circumstances. Insane? Nah. For that you need a mechashiva catgirl zeppelin who autocannon fires little high force spirits armed with weapon foci.

Posted by: mdynna May 10 2006, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (kigmatzomat)

It could be rigged vehicle. You can't tell me that a rigged Banshee can't have an autocannon.

According to SR4 RAW, no vehicle can ever have a weapon "larger" than an LMG. There is only one kind of weapon mount now, and it can handle an LMG at best. The only thing a larger vehicle does is allow you to get more weapon mounts. Yes this sucks, I'm converting Rigger3 rules.

Posted by: kigmatzomat May 10 2006, 08:19 PM

Bah. They just have a single class of retro-fit mount listed in the SR4. The gear book will have a heavier mount. There's never been any indication that the SR4 BBB was intended to be the comprehensive equipment inventory and I personally would prefer that it focus on general mechanics rather than device specifics.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 10 2006, 08:46 PM

Where were you that a drone a mile above you was able to continue engaging the group? Most urban skylines are so busy by 2070 that simply ducking under an awning or around a corner is enough to get you cover from anything that far up, and when it's that far above you, the distance it has to move to change it's angle of engagement is pretty long...

I mean, out in the desert somewhere, I can see continually engaging a target a mile away. In a city, once you started popping off rounds, everyone vaguely near the target is going to try and find some cover... and with a mile between you and the other guy, it's not hard to find something to get in the way.

Posted by: mdynna May 10 2006, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (kigmatzomat)

I understand and agree. However, any weapon larger than an LMG mounted on any sort of vehicle is right now a violation of the rules as presented in SR4. As long as the group is told, and agrees, that you are going to override those rules, fine. However, I do know some players who would protest (loudly) if such rules violations were taken without prior consensus ("It can't have a Panter Cannon, read the rules!")

Posted by: CrimsonHawk May 11 2006, 12:34 AM

well it was a sr2 run converted somewhat for the 4th edition we had a team of 4 mooks (that parashooted down) in full combat armor 2 with ak's old style with grenade launcher one with a missile launcher and the 4th was a mage I believe (my lynx mince meated it first action) the drone (with the cannon) took out our parked bulldog van so I remote piloted the lynx out the back at the same moment and our street sam started with the ones with the ak's I riped into one of them and he got the other but the drone in the sky picked off my lynx like nothing so I was out of the picture most of the fight from then on since only my lynx or 2 dovermans could fit in the back of the bulldog since (supsolily my lynx weight is 1200lbs the max of the bulldog?) this was a bar either on a lake view or a little inland from there I forget the name. also I thought was strange was there was a drone that attached to the bottom of my bulldog van and could destroy it and the lynx inside earlier if a certain outcome happened ( I guess the guy figured out there was something inside from the weight on the van?)

now at this bar is where we were going to meet up with our johnson and collect, but someone had other ideas and wanted all the info (not our johnson)

Posted by: Shrike30 May 11 2006, 06:08 AM

Somewhere in there, i'm sure there was a sentence.

I'll be honest, it sounds like your GM is digging a bit much into the Deepweed stash.

Posted by: CrimsonHawk May 12 2006, 04:22 AM

/Shrug I was asked what place the run was so I just described it not wairing about sentience structure.

I guess TM are the best riggers now, so I should just kill off this toon and play a adept hacker or something.

Posted by: mdynna May 12 2006, 03:44 PM

TM's are not necessarily the best riggers. They are a huge Karma sink. They always start off less powerful than they're "technology equivalents"

Posted by: Big D May 12 2006, 04:08 PM

That goes for awakened in general, now that they have to buy their power up.

Awakened (with notable exceptions)* should start less powerful *or* less diversified than an equivalent chromed character and build up with initiation to a higher potential level. This is particularly true for TMs, who can't do many things that their chrome counterparts can't emulate.

However, as was pointed out, machine sprites have a few really useful features such as being immune to conventional spoofing.

*martial artist, face adept, mage *other* than a combat-only build, etc.