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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Religion in Shadowrun.

Posted by: emo samurai May 8 2006, 06:41 PM

How does it work in Shadowrun society? I remember in Transmetropolitan there being lots of churches, one being born every minute, being set up to take money from the stupid and the tired. They would set up on street corners and conventions and preach.

Is it much the same in Shadowrun? I would think that with both science and magic coming back into the world, not very much outside of shamanic traditions and other magic-oriented traditions would do very well. After all, most of the religions in America disavow any sort of magic, deeming it "the devils work" or some shit like that. I would think that God would seem rather irrelevent after the goblinization, UGE, fireballs, AI's, etc. Is Seattle spirituality dominated by said shamanic and hermetic traditions, and how do religions recruit in the Barrens? I would think if they did the "street shrine" thing from Transmet, they would get mugged and shot after they'd collected a few hundred nuyen from the credulous.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 8 2006, 06:45 PM

There is a lot of stuff in different books. Islam is getting more unified. Most Christians are under Rome. hinduism, NAN and Shinto are just fine because their beliefs are now really clicking.

Posted by: emo samurai May 8 2006, 06:46 PM

Yeah, those last religions are okay with the idea of spirits and magic and stuff. I'd imagine Islam getting more unified because of its constant, obvious threat from S-K and the other megacorps. Is it getting more tolerant, or fearful?

And is religion really there in the sprawl, or is it limited to individual gangs?

Posted by: Platinum May 8 2006, 06:51 PM

Which society?

Religion is still present in the sixth world. Each religion has decided to embrace magic but explain it in different ways.

If you are looking for recruitment methods, read universal brotherhood.

Religion has not been a major focus in NA I guess because it is a touchy subject. In south america, the old mayan rites have surfaced, and in Europe druidic magic is stronger because of sites like Stone Henge.

Read the chapter on magic in whatever BBB you are using. It gives you some insight into how society deals with magic.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 8 2006, 06:56 PM

islam is in mid schism right now
the Islamic Unity Movement
vs the New Islamic Jyhad

The first wasFounded by Ib Eisa
the second b the master Shedim that possessed the Late Ibn Eisa

Posted by: WhiteRabbit May 8 2006, 07:00 PM

There is a bit of a write up of this in MiTS, mostly dealing with how various religions deal with magic. I don't have it in front of me, but from what I recall most major religions eventualy decided that magic is part of God's creation and can be practiced within certain guidelines appropriate to each religion. SoE also goes more into religion and (European) society, with the Catholic church being very important in Spain, France and Italy, and Druidic orders being important in the British Isles.

Posted by: Findar May 8 2006, 07:10 PM

I don't agree that goblinization, etc that came with the return of magic is making religion obsolete. What does religion give people in return for their money? It must give something of value. There are just to many people practicing religions of many kinds for them all to be worthless to their practicioners. Remember the most religious countries around are poor countries. Religion gives people hope. The peope who need more hope the most are the poor. What you have to decide for your game is whether a god like the god of the Hebrews, Moslems and Christians exists in your game? Was the universe created by a god or did the universe come in to being by accident? Is this same god known by many names? Maybe the Great Spirit is actually a manifestation of the god of the Hebrews, Moslems and Christians. My character is a Catholic priest. Not a parish priest but a member of an order that deals with magical threats and problems. The order provides next to no resources so my character has to be self supporting hence the occasional nonaltruistic run.

Posted by: emo samurai May 8 2006, 07:11 PM

I heard the Pope said that spellcasting was okay, as long as you used only the favored weapon of your deity. (D&D joke) Spirits were touchy, since it was pretty much somebody creating a sentient being out of fire and water.

I won't be having a god in my game; life in general for my game is something that springs up sponatenously when the conditions are right. Religions for me are either ways for people to band together for spiritual health or spiritual protection rackets threatening violence on people's very souls if they don't convert. Note that these two are not in any way mutually exclusive.

In my game, mostly the religions that can deal with the idea of imperfect spiritual beings and people themselves having spiritual power are the ones gaining in prominence, and the ones that don't are either brought closer together through oppression or being slowly phased out.

Are there any street preachers who aren't shamans that can torch a mugger with his hands? Like, just crazy schizophrenic people with a placard, a can for money and a few feathers to give him credibility?

Posted by: FanGirl May 8 2006, 07:22 PM

Pope John XXV released an encyclical called "http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/In_Imago_Dei" in 2024 that established the Catholic doctrine on metahumanity and magic. There's also a link on that page that leads to the Sixth World Wiki entry on the Order of St. Sylvester, which is devoted to "investigat[ing] magical phenomena."

Posted by: nezumi May 8 2006, 07:36 PM

Canon doesn't have a lot on religion because, like curse words and sex, it's a taboo subject. That said, there is absolutely no reason religion should have died off. Those religions that are directly contradicted by the observable facts of the day will have to reinvent themselves or disappear (see also: Seventh Day Adventists), and those that choose to scorn or avoid these new things will survive, but may suffer for their decision and will largely disappear from sight (see also: Amish). In the face of such tremendous signs, many new religions will form up to explain things. Some of these will be very dangerous (see also: Heaven's Gate), and they will come and go, but others will simply linger and make headlines (see also: Raelians). But ultimately the big old religions will continue to do there thing, and there will likely be a strong religious revival towards these older religions (see also: any major crisis in history). The older religions may decide to change somewhat to adapt to the times (although they may be very slow about this, depending on their culture and complexity), and their speed will have major effects on their image and number of followers (see also: Vatican II).

So yes Virginia, there is religion. It is very real and very alive, even though it has necessarily been skipped over. The need for religion will only have grown as the rate of weird sh*t goes up and education levels go down, as life becomes more dangerous and people have more concerns about the possibility of imminent death. I expect you'll still regularly see churches, crucifixes and all the normal signs of religion. The simple question is which religions will be more popular with which demographics.

Posted by: Dale May 8 2006, 08:00 PM

All religion is a Shadowrun context would be weak and pointless without any obvious Power to back it up. I'd think many people would end up worshipping Idols and Totems.

Posted by: emo samurai May 8 2006, 08:08 PM

ALL HAIL DRAGON MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!!

Like I said, after centuries of empty posturing from the mainstream religions, along comes totems and spirits and older, more repressed traditions that actually have physical proof of their existence and end up telling people things about themselves.

Like Terry Pratchett himself said, priests hate witches and wizards because they focus on making life good while you live it rather than after.

Posted by: Synner May 8 2006, 08:39 PM

Recommended reading on Religions in SR :
Target: Smuggler Havens (Voodoo)
Threats 2 (from what I've seen the Templars are right up Emo's alley)
Sprawl Survival Guide (religion and everyday life)
Shadows of Europe (Christianity, the Catholic Schism, Neo-Paganism, Islam and Orthodox Christianity mentioned in passing)
SOTA64 (as relates to how certain religions and magic traditions are related)
Loose Alliances (Religious-aligned organizations and their agendas: Vigilia Evangelica, IUM and NIJ)
Shadows of Asia (lots of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Islamic shamanism, and other oddities)

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 8 2006, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (Findar @ May 8 2006, 02:10 PM)

I don't agree that goblinization, etc that came with the return of magic is making religion obsolete.

I think it actually helped religion. See the priest actually heal the sick. Whether you are Christian, Muslim or Shinto it is hard to deny a special power when you see that.

Think how more obnouxious Tom Cruise or Madonna would be if their group could actually perform "miracles."

Posted by: stevebugge May 8 2006, 08:44 PM

QUOTE (Synner)

Religions in SR reading guide:
Threats 2 (from what I've seen the Templars are right up Emo's alley)
Sprawl Survival Guide (religion and everyday life)
Shadows of Europe (Christianity, the Catholic Schism, Neo-Paganism, Islam and Orthodox Christianity mentioned in passing)
SOTA64 (as relates to some Euromagic traditions)
Loose Alliances (Religious alligned organizations and their agendas: Vigilia Evangelica, IUM and NIJ)
Shadows of Asia (Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, Islamic shamanism, and other oddities)

Couple to add to the list:
Survival of the Fittests and Dragons of the Sixth World in reference to some of the newer Religions/Cults (Children of the Dragon) out there.

Posted by: maneius May 8 2006, 08:46 PM

Yes, but they wouldn't be 'miracles' if you see it every day on the trid, and the atheist thaumaturgy professor can do the same thing.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 8 2006, 08:49 PM

Most of the copy says magic is not that common. In fact it does not show up on Trid. They have to use F/X for that.

Posted by: FanGirl May 8 2006, 08:50 PM

And people are unlikely to come into contact with the atheist thamaturgy professor unless they themselves are mages, who, again, are rare.
EDIT: By contrast, most mundanes are much more likely to come into contact with the friendly neighborhood Awakened priest.

Posted by: The ubbergeek May 8 2006, 09:01 PM

Emo, also, there is the personal interpretation.

Religions can be rebelious, liberating, empowering and all.

Posted by: blakkie May 8 2006, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (The ubbergeek)

Emo, also, there is the personal interpretation.

Religions can be rebelious, liberating, empowering and all.

Typically people carry away from religion very similar things to what the brought coming in. People that act like jerks in the name of religion are in many ways jerks first and foremost. Religion just happened to be the vehicle they chose when they went shopping around for the Jerk-mobile.

Posted by: Voran May 8 2006, 10:50 PM

Sota64 I think has a section that mentions Wicca is the 4th largest religion. Though it's not as unified within itself, as there are a buncha different sects(?)

Posted by: Synner May 8 2006, 10:52 PM

QUOTE (Voran)

Sota64 I think has a section that mentions Wicca is the 4th largest religion.

4th largest in Europe.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 8 2006, 11:28 PM

I'd think that religion in general would lose a lot of credibility because of how magic can conform to any number of religious traditions based on the beliefs of the caster. Right away that is suggesting to me that magic is powered by the subconscious mind rather than actual dieties.

Eh, then again, I guess a lot of people will always have the psychological need to believe in a religion. I think religion would always be there but that there would be even more skeptics than there are today.

Posted by: Platinum May 9 2006, 12:04 AM

QUOTE (WhiteRabbit)

That was some poorly researched stuff by Kenson. He should have asked someone that practices the religion about it. I found the section on Christanity was completely off base and pretty much put me off anything Kenson writes. I think he is too immersed in Wicca to see anything else objectively.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 12:06 AM

What'd he say about Christianity?

And you haven't removed that sig by now? Are you eager for a petty-ass sig war or something?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 12:11 AM

QUOTE (Platinum)

QUOTE (WhiteRabbit @ May 8 2006, 03:00 PM)

No, see, you're not allowed to think that Nisarg is funny and sometimes partially correct.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 12:13 AM

I'm so confused.

Posted by: FanGirl May 9 2006, 12:19 AM

Yeah, will you please explain? The power of Christ compels you!

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 12:22 AM

Nisarg is a guy with a blog (www.xanga.com/rpgpundit) who occasionally accuses Steve Kenson of being too ideologically driven in his game writing.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 12:27 AM

"Theory-Swine?" That describes, like, a lot of people here before the purge. That might describe a lot of people now. I love it, but I hate D20.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 12:33 AM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

"Theory-Swine?" That describes, like, a lot of people here before the purge. That might describe a lot of people now. I love it, but I hate D20.

Well, let me put it this way. Very few people would agree with everything he says but he's damn entertaining.

Plus he gets bonus points for continually annoying the RPGnet people.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 12:54 AM

What does he do? I don't know the RPGnet people.

Posted by: FlakJacket May 9 2006, 01:07 AM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

Most Christians are under Rome.

Okay, well this one definately caught my eye. I don't remember reading anything about this but its been a while so I was wondering which books gave you this impression? Certain factions have been getting a lot more political and seizing temporal power I'll give you that. But I'm fairly sure groups like the CoE and the Reformed and Lutheran denominations in places like Germany and the Scandinavian countries aren't just going to roll over for the Catholic Church.

Posted by: Platinum May 9 2006, 01:07 AM

just hop over there and read. He bashes companies and people. Everyday he posts a huge rant on whoever gets in his crosshairs.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 01:27 AM

Who are these Lawn-Crappers he talks about? I remember one kid from my first game of D&D who would always go "IWANNAKNOCKDOWNTHATDOORLETMELETMELETMELETMEI'MTHEFIGHTERIWANNAKNOCKDOWNTHAT DOOR!" and for the longest time I could not think about the game because I wanted to punch him in the face so much. Is he a Lawn-Crapper? Am I?

Posted by: SL James May 9 2006, 01:56 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Nisarg is a guy with a blog (www.xanga.com/rpgpundit) who occasionally accuses Steve Kenson of being too ideologically driven in his game writing.

When the end times come, he will be given a quick death.

Posted by: eidolon May 9 2006, 02:10 AM

QUOTE (Dale)

All religion in a Shadowrun context would be weak and pointless without any obvious Power to back it up.

That hasn't stopped it thus far, so what reason do you have to suspect that this would change?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 02:22 AM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

A Lawn Crapper is someone who engages in socially unacceptable behavior, so that kid throwing an inappropriate tantrum could be seen as a Lawn Crapper. Another example of a Lawn Crapper would be a guy who inappropriately hits on the females in his gaming group and makes them feel uncomfortable.

The term Lawn Crapper comes from an example about pooping on your front lawn. Normally, pooping on your front lawn is socially unacceptable and everyone in the neighborhood would hate you. But if a lot of people who poop on their front lawn moved into a neighborhood they would take over the neighborhood and all the people who didn't like them would move out.

The idea is that if enough socially unacceptable people enter RPG gaming they will drive all the well adjusted polite people from RPG gaming. Then the hobby will suffer as everyone will see it as a bastion only for total losers and not something that normal people can play without feeling ashamed.

Nisarg says that people with extremely poor hygiene, odious social habits, and abberrant behavior are currently welcomed into RPG circles and the problem with this is that it will marginalize RPGs. His example is furries. He claims that at one time there were some artists who specialized in drawing anthropomorphized animals and that was fine. It was just a certain artistic theme. (See Bugs Bunny, for example.) But the furry field got overrun with the sexual fetish furries of today and it's come to the point where any normal person would be deeply ashamed of having anything to do with drawing furry style artwork.

He claims that in order for RPGs to become more mainstream it needs to look like a wholesome hobby that parents don't have to warn their kids off of. He claims that this won't happen if RPGs accomidate socially unacceptable people and that instead this will make RPGs go the way of the furry subculture.

So that's his basic idea of Lawn Crappers.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 02:26 AM

Is a person who takes his model-painting WAY too seriously a lawn-crapper, too? And does this include excessive, glibly treated violence in your games? ("The flesh-form explodes and a few drops of insect-fluid and blood land on your face. It burns.") If so, I am a lawn diarrheaist.

Posted by: FanGirl May 9 2006, 02:30 AM

Emo, you're not a lawn-crapper because you don't hit on me. Sure, you've shown that you can do a good Creepy Stalker Whisper, but that's only when you're playing your NPCs, and not when speaking to my PC.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 9 2006, 03:04 AM

I think FG has caught t3h correct regarding Nisarg's ideology.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 9 2006, 03:14 AM

QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (Voran @ May 8 2006, 10:50 PM)

Sota64 I think has a section that mentions Wicca is the 4th largest religion.

4th largest in Europe.

Don't ya hate it when somebody misreads ya work?

Oh and simply because I shouldgive kudos when due

Mucho Kudos on Orxploitation

Playing an ork in a new game andOrxploitation may feature prominently

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 05:14 AM

Nor do I smell bad. I hope.

Posted by: Glyph May 9 2006, 06:08 AM

Magic could be either a boost or a hindrance to a religion. On the one hand, you can claim to be doing "real" miracles. On the other hand, people can point out that so can an agnostic hermetic mage, and that your holy minion from the spirit world just got its ass kicked by the aforementioned hermetic mage's fire elemental.

Also, the traditional religions won't be the only ones doing some soul searching on whether awakened people are really performing religious miracles, or just people with a genetic gift. Think about how it could affect a true believer in wicca, if that obnoxious, crystal-waving, brain-dead wiccan poser can suddenly start astrally projecting, summoning spirits, and healing people, while he can't do anything, despite being a much more spiritually mature person, with a much better understanding of wicca.

Christianity, even if you accept that a lot of denominations have gone back to the Catholic Church (which, in my opinion, is very implausible), consists of many different sects, and the awakening will probably bring about more - from armageddon cults to resurgences of things like gnosticism. You will have a mix of charismatic and cultlike churches with a shamanic approach (spirits looking like angels, spells being "miracles", etc.), and more mainstream denominations with a hermetic approach, where magical ability may be seen as a divine gift, but only in the same way that being good at sports is a gift. And there could be a lot of tension between the two.

It's your campaign, Emo, but if I were to make one suggestion, it would be this - don't impose your own views too strongly, but instead, make it like politics. A million people with a million different positions, and some of them may be more right or reasoned than others, but the trick is hearing them over the background noise of everyone else. If you just stick it into one category, you miss all of the complexity, and all of the ways it adds nice juicy complications to a campaign.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 9 2006, 06:32 AM

Well, some Christian philosophers feel that belief in miracles is sort of missing the point. Some even take this to the extreme that belief in the divinity of Christ is not required to be a Christian and that such belief mmay be detrimental to one's faith.

Literalist interpertations of the bible are easily disproven and miracles are easily explained so faith that relies on the truth of these things is really fragile and can't actually be called faith at all. Instead one should accept the philosophy while taking all of the flat-eath crap in the context that it was written and understanding that it is mostly metaphor and sometimes mistake.

A person can accept Christianity while understanding that Jesus wasn't actually the King of the Jews but just the enlightened kid of a girl who got knowcked up and needed a creative excuse to tell her fiance just as a person can accept Rock & Roll while understanding that Elvis was not literally a monarch.

Posted by: eidolon May 9 2006, 07:26 AM

This Nisarg sounds like a buffoon. Granted I haven't read anything he has done, but if WR's post is indicative of his entire body of work, I should say that it isn't necessary. If I wanted silly generalizations about RPGers, I would read Jack Chick.

Posted by: Glyph May 9 2006, 07:38 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

So how would a postmodern thinker such as you describe react to the awakening? Would he take a hermetic view of magic? Although I am curious why someone who doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus would even profess Christianity. That sounds more like an agnostic to me.

Posted by: SL James May 9 2006, 07:47 AM

QUOTE (eidolon @ May 9 2006, 01:26 AM)

He's also much funnier. However, I can't disagree with the comments he made in his rants about Kenson's lack of objectivity given my reading of almost all (or all, I can't tell offhand right now) his SR work and knowing what I know of his personal life/background. However, I quite vehemently disagree with the idea that he produces good rules.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 9 2006, 07:49 AM

I suspect that such an individual would accept the hermetic view. The point of such a philosophical standpoint is to strengthen the Chrisitian faith in the face of science by accepting that there may not be any tangible difference between the miraculous and the mundane instead of taking the fundamentalist aproach and sticking one's fingers in one's ears and screaming "la-la-la" while hoping that science will go away and at the same time preventing interfaith discourse and recruitment from turning into a God's-penis-measuring contest.

Posted by: Synner May 9 2006, 07:54 AM

Note that most organized religions in the Sixth World distinguish between magic (one of the natural forces of the universe) and miracle (divine). For instance, the Catholic Church (and much of Christianity) does not view magic as inherently good or evil, but rather as a neutral force of nature. Where exactly they draw the line varies, but it does solve a number of issues that have been brought up here. A Catholic priest using magic is not performing miracles (and he's in for big trouble if he says he is because that's the territory of sainthood) - this is why the Sylvestrines are charged with investigating situations which might be instances of magic or miracle.

Oriental religions have a slight edge when it comes to accepting the Awakening because magic is already integral to their worldviews (sort of like Wicca) and part of their cosmologies.

Posted by: Witness May 9 2006, 10:37 AM

Lot of talk about organised religion here. But what about the mix-your-own beliefs of the average wageslave? IMO the Awakening has probably increased the number of people who would say that they believe in 'some sort of God', but that doesn't necessarily mean they're into any organised religion in any serious way.

If this was realistic, then it seems to me that Science / rationalism would take the biggest hit in terms of the beliefs of your everyday joe. In a world where dragons, elves, magic etc have become real and just about anything is possible then rationalism (and skepticism) hardly has a leg to cling to. The fact that science has achieved anything since the Awakening is probably only thanks to the tech-hungry corps.

And I say this, as a fervent rationalist, with a tear in my eye!

Posted by: nezumi May 9 2006, 01:53 PM

A major corporation will likely have support for several mainstream religions. I'm sure the arcology has a few different chapels/temples where people can worship and be mentored by Renraku hired ministers on the virtue of hard work and loyalty. I suspect that hierarchical religions like Catholicism will not be as popular as denominations with a flatter political structure, because having someone above the Renraku hired minister means the company is giving up control. So we can expect something like a Renraku 'version' of Catholicism, that perhaps is not officially recognized by the Vatican, but does hire ex-Catholic ministers and keeps the same traditions, so most people don't really mind so much.

Religions like Shintoism and philosophies of Confuscianism will be more popular, since they encourage people to give up their own self for the greater good of their community. Simultaneously, individualistic religions like unadulterated wicca will be distinctly unpopular. So I'm sure they'll have special off-shoots of wicca (or whatever individualistic religion is popular in the arcology) that is intentionally more communal based.

Over all, religion is a very useful tool that no corporation wants to simply lose. They'd prefer that the company is the central point of the religion, but I'd doubt they'd want to be quite so overt about it, so just keep religion as a useful tool to encourage productivity, passivity, loyalty, honesty and strength.

Posted by: FanGirl May 9 2006, 02:22 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

It's your campaign, Emo, but if I were to make one suggestion, it would be this - don't impose your own views too strongly, but instead, make it like politics. A million people with a million different positions, and some of them may be more right or reasoned than others, but the trick is hearing them over the background noise of everyone else. If you just stick it into one category, you miss all of the complexity, and all of the ways it adds nice juicy complications to a campaign.

Yeah! The power of Christ com. . . .aw, forget it.

I know that I already disagree with you about whaling on Humanis members just because they're Humanis members (Emo's for it because he feels that they're the no-holds-barred punching bags of SR, I'm against it because I feel that you need a more tangible reason to whale on people--for example, "Hey! They're ganging up on that guy!") So pretty please try to keep the blasphemy to a minimum?

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 02:22 PM

My Sprawl will have a mish-mash of religions; apocalypse cults, Wicca sects, street churches that do good, shamans with groupies, and crazy people.

And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it.

Posted by: FanGirl May 9 2006, 02:25 PM

Okay, fair enough.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 02:26 PM

Oh, and prominent Humanis members with random prices on their heads. You can kill those.

I mean, even if you were the happy suburban type of Humanis member, if you're banding together with other people because you're part of the master race, you're a douchebag. A douchebag with two cars, 2.2 kids, and a Golden Retriever, but still a douchebag. So kill all the members you want; I'm sure that even if he takes his kids to the park, he still wants to rip the ears off of elves.

Posted by: SL James May 9 2006, 02:59 PM

QUOTE (nezumi)

So we can expect something like a Renraku 'version' of Catholicism, that perhaps is not officially recognized by the Vatican, but does hire ex-Catholic ministers and keeps the same traditions, so most people don't really mind so much.

So Renraku is, in effect, Red China?

Does that mean there would be an underground RCC backed by the Vatican? And given their existence, would the Templars and New Jesuits be waging a war against Renraku in their own arcs to protect and liberate "real" Catholics?

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 9 2006, 03:44 PM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Only with people who think their way is the ONLY way. I am shinto, my best friend is a Wiccan. We have no problems.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 03:56 PM

Which is probably why those two religions are gaining tons of support in Shadowrun. The ones that gain power in SR are either those that thrive on diversity, or those that thrive on oppression.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 9 2006, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai @ May 9 2006, 09:26 AM)

Not at all. He's only concerned about the wellfare of his chldren. By the time his children are old enough to enter the workforce there will be 50 year-old elves with 30 years of experience doing the jobs that they would get otherwise and being paid three of four times as much for it because of their experience. While a 50-year-old human would be nearing retirement and a 50-year-old ork or troll would already be dead a 50-year-old elf is still practically a teenager physically.

---------------
As for SR Religion:

Catholic priests - called nuns - revere the saints. Nuns are traditionally, but not always, female.

-Blatently and shamelessly stolen from http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9660&

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 9 2006, 04:08 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Which is probably why those two religions are gaining tons of support in Shadowrun. The ones that gain power in SR are either those that thrive on diversity, or those that thrive on oppression.

I meant in RL, but yeah. It makes sense.

Posted by: stevebugge May 9 2006, 04:22 PM

QUOTE (SL James)

QUOTE (nezumi @ May 9 2006, 07:53 AM)

That could be a fun sub-plot for a game, and an interesting way to portray Renraku. I might use this.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 05:01 PM

Or you could smuggle a bunch of them out of Aztlan. Aztlan sucks.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 9 2006, 05:25 PM

Um Humanis is endorsed and Protected By the UCAS constitution

many metasaren't

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 05:26 PM

That doesn't matter to runners who are well-paid or pissed off enough.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 9 2006, 05:32 PM

you miss my point

if Lone Star catch a Humanis member Murdering a Sinless meta, he gets off with a fine for littering

If Lone star catch a Sinless meta murdering a Humanis member.. the penalty is death (less paperwork)

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 05:34 PM

Yeah, Humanis is a punching bag in my campaign. How does everyone else treat it?

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 9 2006, 05:40 PM

The way it is written up

Runers may hit them often but don;t get caught doing so, they have powerful friends in government.

Lone Star has like 30%+ of its officers as card Carrying Humanis members (which is why orks almost never make detective)

Posted by: nezumi May 9 2006, 05:44 PM

And keep in mind, as has been pointed out, many (in fact, I daresay most) people of the humanis mindset don't feel violence towards metas. In fact they would very much like to live in peace with metas, but let the metas have their country and humans have their own. The elves seem to understand that for the most part, since they stole California, but some just want to take jobs us normal people really can't hope to compete with.

So no, most humanis members won't go to the park and think of pulling ears off. They'll just feel envious when they watch that elven kid get picked up in a beamer they can't hope to afford, and realize that same kid is getting breaks at the expense of everyone else, including good, hard working human kids.

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 05:45 PM

But they still have the Ku Klux Klan masks, too, right?

And are elves favored in employment or something? That doesn't seem logical...

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 9 2006, 05:49 PM

Think about it on the elves thing
a 59 year old elf (the oldest NON IE non sin topike baby)2070has the body of a 20 year old and 31 years experience in work, if he followed a single career he could be well on his way to the top, with no sign of slowing down any tme soon

Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 05:55 PM

He'd outlive the CEO and live to see the company grow giganticer than it already is.

Posted by: SL James May 9 2006, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Yeah, Humanis is a punching bag in my campaign. How does everyone else treat it?

Like pretty much everything else in SR - the opposite of what most people in the books, think.

Posted by: nezumi May 9 2006, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

He'd outlive the CEO and live to see the company grow giganticer than it already is.

He's more likely to BECOME the CEO, and even if he has n o aspirations for greatness, his medical costs are far, far lower, plus he's more charismatic so he's more likely to get little bennies.

The only question is, will a job pay for an elf's pension after the standard amount of time (which means a company is paying far, far more for an elf than for a human, and sufficient elves may drive the company bankrupt), or do they require the elf to work indefinitely before getting that pension, which means the elf is almost guaranteed to eventually make his way to the top echelons in a large corp.

Posted by: Calvin Hobbes May 9 2006, 10:44 PM

I think it's funny that you assume pensions still exist in Shadowrun.

Posted by: Glyph May 10 2006, 03:00 AM

I think pensions will probably be completely gone in favor of 401k's, or the equivalent. But yeah, elves have a big potential advantage, in that their extended lifespan gives them far more productive working years. I say potential, because that same extended lifespan might also affect that elf's motivation to slave away for 20-30 years and build up for retirement. If they aren't going to grow old for another two centuries, they might just live a more bohemian lifestyle and only do work if it interests them. After all, they have decades before they need to start worrying about their future.

As for humanis, they are punching bags according to their stats in the main book. But you could do like SLJames suggested in another thread, and base some of them off of the nastier members of groups like the Aryan Nations. You could also look at so-called militias and other domestic terrorists for inspiration. I mean, if they are going to be the bad guys, you need to make some of them tough.

Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 03:04 AM

By punching bags I meant you could kill them without conscience. Duh.

I think I'll do that. Killing people without conscience, like setting them on fire, is awesome.

Posted by: FanGirl May 10 2006, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

Killing people without conscience, like setting them on fire, is awesome.

No it's not!

QUOTE (emo samurai)

And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it.

Perhaps a Sylvestrine who has a severe psychotic episode and becomes convinced that he has to destroy the unclean in order to bring about the Second Coming? Make sure that you read up about psychosis before you do this one!

Posted by: The ubbergeek May 10 2006, 04:53 AM

QUOTE (emo samurai)

And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it.

You know, Christianity is not there to disapear in Shadowrun. It just evolved, like other believes. This a bit hard and ridiculous to wave Christianity off (unless the game is in a non-christian tradition country(ies)). Kind of suspension of disbelief (AH!).

"What? No baptists in CAS? No catholics in Italia?'

The mode is national churches, more Protestant denominations and syncretism.

Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 04:55 AM

Then a demonologist will summon a demon and the demon will fight with the angel and the angel will win but it'll be by going "Let's merge" and the demon going "okay" and then the demon/angel will get really super pissed and kill everybody.

Posted by: The ubbergeek May 10 2006, 04:58 AM

Hum....

Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 05:15 AM

You're new here, aren't you? *holds out hand* I'm emo samurai, resident psychopath.

Posted by: SL James May 10 2006, 07:46 AM

QUOTE (Glyph)

As for humanis, they are punching bags according to their stats in the main book. But you could do like SLJames suggested in another thread, and base some of them off of the nastier members of groups like the Aryan Nations. You could also look at so-called militias and other domestic terrorists for inspiration. I mean, if they are going to be the bad guys, you need to make some of them tough.

Or as the good guys... Whichever.

Posted by: Laser May 10 2006, 10:04 AM

QUOTE (The ubbergeek @ May 9 2006, 11:53 PM)

QUOTE (emo samurai @ May 9 2006, 09:22 AM)

And I won't even have Christianity in my campaign, unless there's a crazy priest-mage who summons a fucking angel of death. Then I'd have it.

Not being in the campaign doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist, it just means that it doesn't play a role. That's pretty much true of religion in general, actually -- unless a character's religion plays a big part in their actions, behaviors, and dialogue, it's not going to come up. This is true of PCs as well as NPCs.

That being said, a street preacher a la Johnny Mnemonic would be cool. It's Jesus time!

Posted by: nezumi May 10 2006, 02:37 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

I think pensions will probably be completely gone in favor of 401k's, or the equivalent.

You're right, my fault. But that still means that a smart elf can acquire two or three retirement funds and just live off the system for the rest of time without ever having to work.

If *I* were an elf, I'd work my tail off for 20 years, retire for 10, work for 20, then just do whatever my pointy eared heart desired. But regardless, unlike a human, I don't believe in only death and taxes. After all, death is half a millenium away and taxes I can avoid by carefully investing my money in funds that come out of post-tax income (not tax deferred, I forget what the term is).

How about that, breeder? Now I'm fifty years old but I look twenty, I'm making $40k a year doing absolutely nothing, I have the free time to pursue all the hobbies I ever wanted, I can marry a dozen human women before I die and give them elfy kids, I can apply for any job in my field I want and am automatically more likely to get it than you are, I reek of sexual appeal and I'm all around just better than you are. Boy, I hope you have such a pleasant outlook when you're fifty.

Yeah, I'd be pretty mad too. If I lived in that situation, I would feel very cheated by elves and dwarves. As an employer, I might feel competition from my elf underlings, since they have a reputation for double dealing, for sneakiness and an undying desire for power and money (and I can name plenty of examples of rich and powerful elves to back it up). Trolls and orks I could live with since they're even worse off than me, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't look down on them. I can imagine having the same style marches about illegal immigrants and all the normal, SINned humans have images of these poor, stupid, SINless orks making a fuss because it's illegal to work illegally.

Don't think I'd be humanis, but I can certainly understand why so many people would be racist. Remember emo, as a GM, you are expected to play out and sympathise with EVERY NPC. You need to see the world from their viewpoints and understand why they do the things they do, or you're just putting two dimensional cardboard cut-outs in your world.

Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 02:54 PM

And that's why we kill them.

I think I did that alright with my mantis shaman and spirit, even if he was really, really, creepy. I think I'll do that with EVERY villain, even the ones we assassinate!

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 10 2006, 02:55 PM

In 2006 pensions are gone in favor of 401k's and SEP IRA's. BUT with extraterritoriality in 2065 they might come back as a way to keep employees. 40 years with Renraku and you get a beach front condo in the corp retirnement village in North Carolina. Jump ship to go tothat other corp and you lose that.

Posted by: Glyph May 11 2006, 03:14 AM

Good point. But they could probably do the same thing with a 401K with the company - with extraterritoriality, leaving the company could mean losing your retirement fund, your condo, your company car... everything.

And I don't know about Humanis as "good guys", but they can be run with the same shades of grey as everyone else.

Like, maybe one of them could be a mercenary who kills orks at every opportunity, because his son got tortured and murdered by the Sons of Sauron for being a "breeder". And maybe they will help the Sons of Sauron against this "evil racist", only at the end, the gang leader gloats to the guy about what he did to his son, and the players realize that they've been helping someone who's an even worse racist.

Maybe one of them could be a really messed-up elven physad with the human-looking Edge. His parents were Humanis types who took him to the surgeon to get him "cured" when he developed those demon ears. He's not an elf, damnit... he's a human! They cured him! And he's not awakened... magic is evil! He's no adept, he's just, just... naturally athletic! Yeah!

Posted by: maikeru May 11 2006, 03:25 AM

Kinda on topic but off at the same time. I think playing a shintoist shaman would be kinda cool. Might have to roll on up.

Posted by: Glyph May 11 2006, 03:30 AM

Yeah. On the other hand, trying to play a wiccan combat mage could kind of suck.

GM: "Okay, your manabolt does 6S damage. Now resist 6S damage, 6S damage, and 6S damage."

Player: "You know, I really hate the 'three-fold rule'."

Posted by: maikeru May 11 2006, 03:35 AM

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 11 2006, 04:11 AM

QUOTE (Laser)

That being said, a street preacher a la Johnny Mnemonic would be cool. It's Jesus time!

Clear out of the way, marine...god's will must be done...!

-The Preacher from Damage Incorporated

Posted by: thefather May 11 2006, 05:23 AM

kinda new here, first post but ive been surfin the sight for some time. acctualy my first shadorun charicter was an excimunicated bishop, some wierd cult killed his whole congrogation, got a little pissed to say the least so he had some one built him two of the huge revolvers like hellboy had, called them the Saint and the Martyer. holy rounds all that good stuff ended up going on some crazy crusade and geting imolated by his own sword good stuff, but our Gm played it perfectly had normal stuff for every one and every now and then throw in something evil/ supernaturl/ demonic for me to beat on it was preaty cool.......other wise greetings all

Posted by: WyldKarde May 11 2006, 06:23 AM

I once ran a defrocked priest myself, although in this case it was more his taste for earthly pleasures, such as simsense porno involving nuns. He did have his moments though...

"Now, this here gun's loaded with APDS ammo. That's frightfully expensive and sure I'd hate to see it wasted on a miserable little sinner such as yourself, so tell me what I want to know and I won't SMITE YOU DOWN WITH THE THUNDEROUS WRATH OF OUR LORD!"

That was worth -1TN to an intimidation roll.