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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ RFID tags and you
Posted by: Geekkake May 8 2006, 08:28 PM
I haven't used RFID tags very much in SR4, aside from reminding my players rather sternly that the tags are located in just about everything they purchase/acquire, and to bring their tag erasers. Aside from that, it just didn't seem that relevant to my game.
I've recently decided to have a 12mm x 2mm EM4102 glass RFID tag implanted into my hand. Obviously since my decision and attendant research, this issue has become a lot more, shall we say, thought-consuming.
I'm curious about how other GMs are using RFID tags, since I have no doubt that the presence of one in my body will cause them to appear more in the game.
I'm also curious if anyone else on the forum has already had this procedure done, and if we could discuss their experience via PM.
Posted by: FanGirl May 8 2006, 09:08 PM
During FanGirl's first run, we had the chance to loot a runner mall that had been invaded by invae (see my diary thread for more details). She took a tag eraser to everything she picked up, but the group had to leave their stuff behind in order to leave the building via a quarantine thingy. KE had to bring the gear to the group a little later, and there's a possibility that the officers figured out that FanGirl's things had been detagged and replaced them with tagged items. Therefore, none of the items should be considered safe--not even the tag eraser itself--so I'll have her ditch the old tag eraser and take a new one to her loot, just to be safe.
Posted by: maikeru May 8 2006, 10:35 PM
| QUOTE |
| 've recently decided to have a 12mm x 2mm EM4102 glass RFID tag implanted into my hand. Obviously since my decision and attendant research, this issue has become a lot more, shall we say, thought-consuming. |
In RL what for?
Posted by: Voran May 8 2006, 10:45 PM
Heh, for some reason this thought crossed my mind:
Someday soon someone might be able to report back to you, "Excuse me Mr. <x>, we've noted that your RFID tag in your hand seems to be centered around your crotch regularly from 7pm to 7:04 pm. Please remember to wash up."
Posted by: Nasrudith May 9 2006, 02:39 AM
In my humble opinion about RFID chipping.
Getting something implanted into you doesn't sound too smart. The fact you'l need surgery when you get laid off, the growth of technology making it obsolote, the health effects not yet known, RFID hacking that coulld change your RFID from chaning it to "NAME PASSWORD ID" to "Arrest me" but it's your choice.
Posted by: Kiedo May 9 2006, 03:16 AM
| QUOTE (Nasrudith) |
In my humble opinion about RFID chipping. Getting something implanted into you doesn't sound too smart. The fact you'l need surgery when you get laid off, the growth of technology making it obsolote, the health effects not yet known, RFID hacking that coulld change your RFID from chaning it to "NAME PASSWORD ID" to "Arrest me" but it's your choice. |
the scary part is how easily that is done, it's impractical at this juncture (from what I understand) to encrypt RFID tags, to were they are at least hacker resistant, let alone safe. I was looking through an electronic's catalogue, and say they were selling RFID chip programers and readers, so anybody willing to fork out fifty bucks will be able to copy your tag, imprint it onto thier own (which they also sold) and get into what ever you have it for. But I don't think tag readers and scanners are that common place yet, so there is nothing to worry about, but as soon as the first nuclear weapons development facility switches from passwords to RFID tags you can bet your ass they'll be alot more people with em.
But that's just my two cents
Posted by: hobgoblin May 9 2006, 04:51 PM
the surgery is at best local, and skin deep. something a doctor can do with some local anastetic and a scalpel (or for that matter a troll with a hammer and a rusty fork).
and encrypting the RFID will not help much if the content of it isnt connected to that specific RFID. a string of data is a string of data, and can be copyed. so unless said encrypted string of data contains the serial number of the RFID is stored on, you got yourself no better security then without the encryption.
Posted by: Geekkake May 9 2006, 08:37 PM
To address some of the questions/comments:
| QUOTE (maikeru) |
| In RL what for? |
My primary interest is philosophical curiosity and a fervent desire to embrace transhuman technology. This seems like a small, first step in that direction. A close second is my ability to introduce further convenience into my home (keyless entry, personal customization, etc.). Third, I'm deeply interested in the technical side, and starting projects around my home incoporating the technology.
| QUOTE (Nasrudith) |
| The fact you'l need surgery when you get laid off, the growth of technology making it obsolote, the health effects not yet known, RFID hacking that coulld change your RFID from chaning it to "NAME PASSWORD ID" to "Arrest me" but it's your choice. |
The surgery's a simple incision, outpatient and quick. Obsolescence can be overcome as easily as cutting open the skin above the tag, which is lying just under, and removing the old tag. Once the small cut heals over, a new one can be implanted without worrying about it falling out. Regarding changing the tag, my first implant (I plan for two, in the future) will be a read-only, unencrypted tag, which can be scanned and cloned, but not altered in any way.
That the health risks aren't known and could be substantial is a point of concern for me, but is overshadowed by my excitement and curiosity. That's a reckless viewpoint, I understand, but a trip to the emergency room seems worth the entire experience to me.
My personal activities and viewpoints aside, I'm still curious as to how other GMs are handling RFID tags in general, aside from a way to taunt and/or punish careless players.
Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 10:11 PM
I'd be okay with it as far as opening my door is concerned, but is there any way to make it so I'm not tracked?
Posted by: Geekkake May 9 2006, 10:27 PM
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| I'd be okay with it as far as opening my door is concerned, but is there any way to make it so I'm not tracked? |
RFID tags aren't a tracking technology, they're an identification technology, like the magnetic strip in your driver's license or a barcode. The response range of the chip that will be implanted in my hand (hopefully next week) is 1.5 inches perpendicular, or .5 inches parallel. With the location of the implant, I'll basically have to place my hand on a reader, or extremely close to it, for the chip to respond to the reader's RF signal and emit the identification code.
An implanted RFID tag can't be tracked by satellite, GPS, or readers outside the tag's emission range (of 1.5 inches, tops). I have to voluntarily scan my hand.
Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 11:50 PM
Any essence costs?
Posted by: Shrike30 May 9 2006, 11:51 PM
I put RFID's everywhere in my game. Anything that people own that's at all important? Tagged. All of your employees? Tagged (and the sec personnell are usually biomonitored, too). Anything a company has in it's inventory? Tagged. Anything you might put down and forget... pet, newspaper, soft drink, lipstick, car key? Tagged.
The one that's got my players really paranoid would be the use of stealth and security tags... it's so amazingly inexpensive to bug something in SR4 that I've taken a phrase from Inherit the Earth... "it's more expensive to not bug something these days."
They've come across bugging and tracking RFID's in people, in clothing, in their food, in the seat of their taxi, in gear they've just bought on the cheap, on walls, floors, and ceilings, slipped under doors, tucked into envelopes, stuck to things to pass messages, built into thumbtacks holding posters to walls... and they're aware that they don't find or don't know about at least half of what they encounter. The tag eraser our hacker carries is (houserule) amped up enough that it can fry a security bug, but in the process it turns the bug into a boiling, white-hot bubble of silicon (not the happiest thing to have under your skin or in your clothes), and it's not a precise device... it cooks pretty much any RFID in a cone within a few feet in front of the emitter, including ones you might not want to cook. All the more entertaining when you start thinking about sweeping everything (and everyone) you meet with one.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 9 2006, 11:54 PM
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Any essence costs? |
No more than, say, a nanotattoo (that is, 0).
Posted by: emo samurai May 9 2006, 11:58 PM
What kind of radiation does it give off? If it's radio waves, then I have no problem.
Posted by: James McMurray May 10 2006, 12:02 AM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) | ||
No more than, say, a nanotattoo (that is, 0). |
He says that now. But wait until he gets two of them and finds out that the tech is so new right now the essence cost is 5.4 each.
Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 12:04 AM
It better boost our reflexes and strength too if it does cost that much.
Posted by: James McMurray May 10 2006, 12:07 AM
Why? Early tech sucks. The first version of Wired Reflexes 1 probably had an essence cost of 10 before they perfected the design and surgery procedure. 5.4 is waaay too much, but 0.00 might be too little.
We should bump this thread in a couple months to see if he's suffering from any cyberpsychosis. 
Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 12:08 AM
Dude, I think he's ALWAYS suffered from cyberpsychosis, ever since I killed his dog with my character thread.
Posted by: Geekkake May 10 2006, 12:32 AM
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Dude, I think he's ALWAYS suffered from cyberpsychosis, ever since I killed his dog with my character thread. |
You ridiculous idea killed my father, and now it's after me.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| What kind of radiation does it give off? If it's radio waves, then I have no problem. |
Just radio waves. Harmless. The radio waves also only emit when powered by a reader, too, as stated previously.
Also, since the RFID implant just rests under the skin, I'm gonna say Essence cost of 0. I can't believe I'm dignifying the concept with a ruling...
Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 12:45 AM
This is Dumpshock. We ALWAYS need a ruling, usually multiple ones.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 10 2006, 01:04 AM
OK, let's put it this way:
Your wage-mage is a serious investment. Therefore, you chip him.
If chipping him was a massive impairment to his magical ability, do you think we'd do it?
RFID implantation would have about as much impact on essense as getting your ear pierced, or getting a bad splinter.
Posted by: Geekkake May 10 2006, 02:20 AM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| OK, let's put it this way: Your wage-mage is a serious investment. Therefore, you chip him. If chipping him was a massive impairment to his magical ability, do you think we'd do it? RFID implantation would have about as much impact on essense as getting your ear pierced, or getting a bad splinter. |
While I agree with the Essence cost, your argument wasn't compelling. You could always give him a titanium, unlockable wristband with RFID.
Posted by: Nikoli May 10 2006, 02:43 AM
But then he could break his hand and slip out of it, setting a hand without comprimising ones magical talents should be relatively easy.
Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 02:44 AM
Or he could shape earth it off his hand. I'm sure lots of people would love to teach their mages that.
Or he could have an earth elemental break it.
Posted by: Nikoli May 10 2006, 02:48 AM
Or expand it and then shrink it around the neck of a barghest while it sleeps...
Posted by: Kiedo May 10 2006, 02:51 AM
| QUOTE (Geekkake) | ||
While I agree with the Essence cost, your argument wasn't compelling. You could always give him a titanium, unlockable wristband with RFID. |
or better yet, chip his most powerful focus, you watch him get rid of that.
As a GM I use tags for everything, sometimes Johnsons will give runners tags to monitor progress, other times they placed in food, fed to the runners, which provides about a day and a half of tracking, which is good for short runs (you just have to be careful in that reguard that they don't scan everything they eat, and make sure the food is cooked very well). When I play, I wipe all the chips in my gear, and put fresh security tags and hidden tags, into each piece of gear (as far down, depending on the GM, as each bullet), just in case it gets stolen or I don't quite kill the drek that keyed my bike.
RFID tags IRL, are not as safe as you'd thing, concerning range. A passive tag, which is what I assume your having implanted (else you'd have to have surgery every month to change the batteries, lol), has been proven to respond wih little signal distortion, up to a distance of 67 feet (which is the current world record, set at Defcon 13, intheshadows.tv, box 6). Also it is very possible to jam an RFID tag, with a relatively simple electronic device, I found the schematics online (also covered by intheshadows.tv box 6), and have every intention of building one, and testing it the next time I'm at Walmart. Theoretically you could severly hamper the progress of a distrobution center that has switched to RFID enabled barcodes by simply turning a device such as that on, and leaving it near the facility.
Posted by: Geekkake May 10 2006, 02:51 AM
Of course, it wouldn't work after that.
Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 02:59 AM
What's wrong with having an earth elemental doing it? It's under his control. He is a fucking mage, after all.
Posted by: Geekkake May 10 2006, 03:11 AM
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| What's wrong with having an earth elemental doing it? It's under his control. He is a fucking mage, after all. |
That means less than you seem to think.
Posted by: emo samurai May 10 2006, 05:38 AM
You mean he has less control over the elemental than I think?
Posted by: hobgoblin May 10 2006, 06:04 AM
| QUOTE |
| RFID tags IRL, are not as safe as you'd thing, concerning range. A passive tag, which is what I assume your having implanted (else you'd have to have surgery every month to change the batteries, lol), has been proven to respond wih little signal distortion, up to a distance of 67 feet (which is the current world record, set at Defcon 13, intheshadows.tv, box 6). Also it is very possible to jam an RFID tag, with a relatively simple electronic device, I found the schematics online (also covered by intheshadows.tv box 6), and have every intention of building one, and testing it the next time I'm at Walmart. Theoretically you could severly hamper the progress of a distrobution center that has switched to RFID enabled barcodes by simply turning a device such as that on, and leaving it near the facility. |
ah, directional antennas and all that. i kinda recall a thread or 10 about that when it was anounced that SR4 would have a wireless matrix.
Posted by: Red May 10 2006, 04:34 PM
Keep in mind that RFID tags only have a range of 3 meters. This is less than desirable for "tracking" runners who run through all sorts of matrix dead zones, or zones with less than desirable coverage. Frankly, RFID tags shouldn't even have a range that large. An RFID tag costs 1/20 of a nuyen. Even a security tag costs only 5 nuyen. Less than a half-eaten soyburger. That doesn't buy you very much. Look at the costs for other signal rated devices.
As for essense, the RFID section states that security tag implantation takes no essense.
Posted by: Kanada Ten May 10 2006, 06:36 PM
| QUOTE |
| Frankly, RFID tags shouldn't even have a range that large. |
I think this is more attesting to the 2070's ability to sort out RF noise from data using q-physics.
Posted by: Geekkake May 10 2006, 08:46 PM
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||
I think this is more attesting to the 2070's ability to sort out RF noise from data using q-physics. |
Keep in mind, passive tags are powered only by the radio waves from the reader. That's not much power for emission. Hence, ranges should be smaller.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 10 2006, 08:47 PM
Where do they max out? That is, if your reader was pushing out a *lot* of power, would the range get noticeably larger?
Posted by: Kanada Ten May 10 2006, 08:56 PM
Read Kiedo and Hobgoblin's statments about directional anntenna: 67 feet with signal distortion is the record for passive.
Posted by: Butterblume May 10 2006, 09:12 PM
Actually, I can't believe 67 feet is right. sounds a little weak ... when I have time, I will look into it, somehow I think it is much more than that.
Posted by: Geekkake May 10 2006, 09:23 PM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| Where do they max out? That is, if your reader was pushing out a *lot* of power, would the range get noticeably larger? |
It may affect the range, somewhat, but the size of the tag is also a factor. For instance, the 12mm x 2mm passive chip has an effective range of between 0.75" and 1.5", depending on angle, pretty much regardless of the volume the reader's throwing at it. The 8mm x 2mm have even less. So a super-reader charging the chip as much as possible may increase the range by .01 or .02 inches.
Posted by: kigmatzomat May 10 2006, 10:57 PM
Standard readers aren't designed to pick up the response except at close range but if I fire up a 50,000W RF emitter on the RFID frequency, there will be trillions of those little buggers chirping like mad. The trick is having an antenna in the right location that is sensitive enough to hear the responses. Angle of incidence & antenna sensitivity is probably the big limiter on the effective range b/c building an RF emitter is almost trivial.
Your RFID's security is essentially reliant upon the laziness and disinterest of the rest of the world. I'm positive that if RFID chips in the hand become even vaguely common, someone will build an RFID scanner into a glove, watch and/or ring.
Posted by: hobgoblin May 10 2006, 11:06 PM
hmm, did i link to a wired article where someone had basicly palmed the external antenna of a rfid reader and put the rest of said reader up his sleeve?
and why bother to build an antenna into a piece of clothing? your carrying around a rfid reader in your comlink...
Posted by: Geekkake May 11 2006, 04:00 PM
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| Your RFID's security is essentially reliant upon the laziness and disinterest of the rest of the world. |
Well, that about makes it perfectly secure.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 11 2006, 05:35 PM
Yep, just like credit card information.
Posted by: Geekkake May 11 2006, 08:40 PM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| Yep, just like credit card information. |
This is an unfair comparison. I'm using my RFID tag for stuff like keyless entry, some limited home automation, and logging into my PC. I can't imagine anyone going through all the trouble of finding and stashing a compatible reader, clandestinely scanning my hand, cloning a tag, and then using it when they could just kick in the door when I'm at work.
I don't own anything anyone willing and able to hack my tag's code would want.
Consequently, for the time being, I am pretty much completely secure.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 11 2006, 08:49 PM
*shrug* You're about as secure as people who leave their doors unlocked because they live in a good neighborhood. All it takes is some yahoo realizing that the doors in that neighborhood are unlocked, and in he'll go.
| QUOTE |
| Consequently, for the time being, I am pretty much completely secure. |
Fair enough. It's more the future I'm looking towards. If the only things your RFID is linked to are stuff like opening the door to your house, then there's easier ways of stealing anything that you've got than trying to rip it off using your RFID. It's the SR scenario, where your RFID and commlink are pretty much the same as your signature and thumbprint on everything from doors into buildings to accessing your bank account, that you'll find criminals developing an interest in snatching RFID info secretly.
Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 09:09 PM
I've just recently discovered the Discovery Channel show "It Takes a Thief." The things that make you think you're secure aren't really all that helpful. On yesterday's episode the guy climbed through the front window of a house on a busy New York street and nobody saw or cared.
Posted by: hobgoblin May 11 2006, 09:13 PM
see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil...
Posted by: Big D May 12 2006, 04:45 AM
That's the nice thing about telecommuting... you're your own security guard.
Just need a pistol under the desk.
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