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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shadowrun . . . alas, it fades

Posted by: Union Jane May 9 2006, 03:51 PM

So continues the gnashing of the teeth.

We're closing in one year since the sourebook's release date and still no GM screen to be had. The first adventure has yet to hit print. I don't really know what to say. I should think that FanPro would have had some kind of agenda for SR4, rather than hurrying to make last year's GenCon. A better plan would have been waiting until GenCon 2006 for a release, so that other products would be ready for publication immediately following. I expect such behaviour from my local D20 company, dodgy fellows that they are, but I have always held Shadowrun to a hire standard.

Perhaps that was my mistake.

Posted by: MYST1C May 9 2006, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Union Jane)

We're closing in one year since the sourebook's release date and still no GM screen to be had. The first adventure has yet to hit print.

I don't know about the rest of the world but here in Germany both On The Run and the GM Screen (German versions) are available in print.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 9 2006, 04:10 PM

Stiggysbaby in the US has what look like an Adventure.

Posted by: stevebugge May 9 2006, 04:18 PM

I picked up a copy of "On the Run" at Gary's Games in North Seattle last Thursday. It is available, though it may be selling fast.

Posted by: BookWyrm May 9 2006, 06:06 PM

O_O

I've got to check with my local supplier.

Posted by: Union Jane May 9 2006, 06:07 PM

Alrighty then, I stand corrected. The first product in support of SR4 was released 9-10 months after the rulebook.

Posted by: Casazil May 9 2006, 07:06 PM

well I have the first adventure and I understand the gm screen is coming soon.

As for time SR4 was released in Aug. 2005 so that makes it 8 months right? and in the next 3 months they have plans to drop what 2 or 3 books on the market?

Posted by: Synner May 9 2006, 07:15 PM

Actually due to various delays the printed version of SR4 only reached stores in late September/October 2005. So the first release was about 7-8 months (and three printings) after the core book (if you don't count the pdf release more than a month ago). People tend to forget that FanPro is a two guy outfit which runs two successful lines (SR and Battletech) and is developing a third (The Dark Eye). There's only so many projects that can be developed simultaneously.

Several of the core supplements are in advanced stages of development, but are being thoroughly checked and crosschecked for compatibility and streamlining to ensure minimal bloat and complete integration with the existing system. If they were less critical releases maybe FanPro would have already put them out the door, but these are the core books for the entire system and they need to be done right.

Posted by: stevebugge May 9 2006, 07:28 PM

QUOTE (Synner)

Actually due to various delays the printed version of SR4 only reached stores in late September/October 2005. So the first release was about 7-8 months (and three printings) after the core book (if you don't count the pdf release more than a month ago).

Several of the core supplements are in advanced stages of development, but are being thoroughly checked and crosschecked for compatibility and streamlining to ensure minimal bloat and complete integration with the existing system. If they were less critical releases maybe FanPro would have already put them out the door, but these are the core books for the entire system and they need to be done right.

And I can appreciate that reasoning. After some of the nearly game breaking and poorly thought out additions put out in SR 2 & 3 in the in depth focus books (see my comments about whirling in the martial arts thread for an example of what I mean) I fully support a slower release schedule if it means a better end product. Besides it's always easier to add something later than to include it right away and then discover it wasn't a good idea and remove it later. Hopefully the playtesters are pushing the envelope enough to find the problem rules before the books go to print.

Posted by: Ancient History May 9 2006, 08:18 PM

Hey, at least you can't complain that keeping current with SR4 puts a big dent in your wallet.

Posted by: frostPDP May 10 2006, 02:46 AM

Take your time. Give us good products.

I still play SR3 but with some SR4 mods (Wireless Matrix and the Contacts system) but make more stuff better Bad grammar, I know.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 10 2006, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

Hey, at least you can't complain that keeping current with SR4 puts a big dent in your wallet.

ssshhhh that was Snow Fox' big argument remember. say it too loudly and she will find something else to get grumpy about.

Posted by: Eldritch May 11 2006, 12:18 AM

QUOTE

People tend to forget that FanPro is a two guy outfit which runs two successful lines (SR and Battletech) and is developing a third (The Dark Eye). There's only so many projects that can be developed simultaneously.

Well then, why add a third line? Focus on what you have, develop it and get it out the door. Nothing kills a game quicker than a dodgey release schedule.

I mean if they are not having success with BT or SR, then drop one in favor of the new line.

If SR and BT are both successful, I would think they want to shore up their release schedule, keep a steady stream of books coming into their fans hands than try something new - and risky.

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 11 2006, 01:04 AM

It's worse than that. They abandoned 3rd ed. Those of us who won't switch are just going on with the stuff we have and no incentive to go to 4th ed. I mena really. I've got lots of books on magic, wheels, guns and tech ofr 3rd ed or just a basic book for 4th. hmmm, which gives me a richer world to play in?

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja @ May 10 2006, 10:10 AM)

QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 9 2006, 03:18 PM)

Hey, at least you can't complain that keeping current with SR4 puts a big dent in your wallet.

ssshhhh that was Snow Fox' big argument remember. say it too loudly and she will find something else to get grumpy about.

You are toast!

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 02:12 AM

There's no such thing as having a new edition without "abandoning" the old. Doing that would leave two Shadowrun lines competing with one another. The game has a hard enough time competing witht he rest of the world without a civil war int he print house.

Posted by: blakkie May 11 2006, 11:34 AM

... posted twice for double the fun ...

Posted by: blakkie May 11 2006, 11:40 AM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ May 10 2006, 07:04 PM)

I'm not entirely convinced that R3 is better than no wheels book.

SR4 is definately going through printing runs briskly. Someone mentioned a few months back that the SR4 BBB is outpacing what SR3 BBB sales were. They didn't mention if that was in dollars or units, but even if just in dollars that seems much less a fade than a revitalization. I think that longterm both they and players are going to be better served by figuring out the secondary core books as a whole. The best of course is doing that before even the BBB hits the printers, but alas we live in a resource limited world.

EDIT: Longterm SR4 BBB sales might slump a bit over the SR3 BBB given that there hasn't been any word yet of the SR4 BBB bindings being prone to falling apart.

Posted by: Witness May 11 2006, 12:04 PM

Feels to me like having fewer sourcebooks means having more room to play with the setting using your own imagination. That's a bad thing?

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 May 11 2006, 12:21 PM

not everyone wants to go through all the hassle, or appreciate the ideas given to them as tools to work with. Besides, you can always go off canon, or just run your game in an area not covered by a sourcebook. But at least with the book in front of you (or on the shelf) you have the option to use it or not. Without it, your option is simply... not.

Posted by: blakkie May 11 2006, 12:51 PM

I would prefer the books in hand.

But not having them is working ok. Especially when you have none of them. The awkward part is to come when you have some but not all. Hopefully they'll be able to bring them out on a relatively fast schedule once they get them all squared with each other. Still though there is quite likely going to be a minimum full year between Street Magic and Unwired because marketing theory says you spread out your releases some so they don't compete with each other and don't up your costs by requiring a bigger delivery structure to handle near simultaneous product releases.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 11 2006, 12:57 PM

However that theory falls down wiith something like RPG books
especially if R&D costs are low due to being primarily an edition change

releasing all the "Fatsplats" simultaneously would mean higher sales in the first 3-6 months followed by a faster drop to the trickle level expected from them in the long term

this initial cash injection could be used to reinvest into the production of more adventure and storyline books

meaning a faster growth cycle

That was how WOTC turned D&D around from a money loser to a huge cash cow

Posted by: blakkie May 11 2006, 01:03 PM

I contend that WotC turned around D&D because they had the cash backing to spend comparatively enormous amounts on R&D, with the the freedom to playtest the living crap out of it to get it "right" according to a very well conceived marketing plan. Basically they had the size and the potential market size to make feasible a high quality product.....and then they made it.

D&D has traditionally been a 3 book to SR's 1 BBB, and effectively are one release. The 3e *books actually took a fair amount of time to come out.

Posted by: JongWK May 11 2006, 01:17 PM

IIRC, some of the basic splatbooks for D&D 3E (like Song & Silence) sourcebook) came out almost 2 years after the core books were released.

Posted by: blakkie May 11 2006, 01:44 PM

It was definately over a year but something less than 2. Was it GenCon 2000 that 3e came out at? S&S, i remember because i like my rogues, came out christmas 2001 and Masters of the Wild was after that in late winter/early spring 2002.

Posted by: SL James May 11 2006, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Witness)

Feels to me like having fewer sourcebooks means having more room to play with the setting using your own imagination. That's a bad thing?

You've never had your imagination co-opted by sourcebook retconning, have you?

Posted by: Witness May 11 2006, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (SL James)

You've never had your imagination co-opted by sourcebook retconning, have you?

I understand all the words in that question, without actually understanding what you're getting at!

Posted by: Witness May 11 2006, 04:39 PM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

Fair point. Personally I get a bit anal and want everything to fit together just so. So if a new book comes out and doesn't fit with what I've done before, it irritates me!
Is this what SL James was getting at?

Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 11 2006, 04:44 PM

QUOTE (SL James)

QUOTE (Witness @ May 11 2006, 06:04 AM)

Feels to me like having fewer sourcebooks means having more room to play with the setting using your own imagination. That's a bad thing?

You've never had your imagination co-opted by sourcebook retconning, have you?

...happened when the old TT sourcebook came out. Had a well detailed setting worked up for Portland, the Government wasn't run by a bunch of paranoid IEs & Spikers, and mercy me, there was no bleedin' GD involved at all.

Even had some interesting local flavour like a family of Dwarves that ran a chain of Brewpubs (the MacTarnahans), The MAX Tram (there is no subway never has been never will be - too much unstable sandy soil), The Boehmian Hawthorne District, and the Ritzy district was still Old Laurelhurst (where some michevious slot of a mage quickened confusion spells on a number of the intersections as a joke - mind you Laurelhurst has streeets that nearly go in circles on themselves).

...then someone got the TT book. Needless to say, the campaign ended very quickly after that, though it did give ma a decent plot device and a neat NPC (of my own concept) for a possible future arc but not set in the TT.

...Ohh yeah, and there was no "Berlin Wall" around Portland.

Posted by: Witness May 11 2006, 05:00 PM

Yeah that's a bummer. Can see it happening to my Vancouver setting. Of course it should just be nothing more than a minor bummer. Like fistandantilus3.0 said, you could ignore it. Wouldn't have thought it reason enough to end a game and dump a load of ideas that you love!

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 06:39 PM

Why couldn't you just continue playing in your version of TT? It's pretty easy to tell the person, "that's a great book, but it ain't how it works in this world."

Posted by: Shrike30 May 11 2006, 06:51 PM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

It's worse than that. They abandoned 3rd ed. Those of us who won't switch are just going on with the stuff we have and no incentive to go to 4th ed.

Man, I was so pissed off when SR2 came out. They abandoned 1st ed! Those of us who wouldn't switch were just going on with the stuff we had and no incentive to switch over to 2nd ed...

Can you name another gaming company that's continued producing products for an older version of a game after they made a new version? Because I can't come up with any, off the top of my head.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 11 2006, 06:53 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Why couldn't you just continue playing in your version of TT? It's pretty easy to tell the person, "that's a great book, but it ain't how it works in this world."

Hey, the CZ around chicago stayed up for the longest time in my campaigns... i mean, years and years.

Well, maybe not. Chicago had always been swarmed by bugs "a few months ago." Not quite the same thing.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 07:09 PM

Sword and Fist: 01/2001
Defenders of the Faith: 05/2001
Tome and Blood: 07/2001
Song and Silence: 12/2001
Masters of the Wild: 02/2002

Now their sourcebooks are pouring out at one or more per month. Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).

Posted by: blakkie May 11 2006, 07:24 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 01:09 PM)

Sword and Fist: 01/2001
Defenders of the Faith: 05/2001
Tome and Blood: 07/2001
Song and Silence: 12/2001
Masters of the Wild: 02/2002

So 5 months till the first one, 18 months till the last one. Fanpro is most definately behind that schedule, it'll likely be at about 10 months or so that Street Magic comes out. If they then manage to get out the rest in 4-5 month intervals they'll wrap up at around 2 years. Probably would have been better if they had gotten Street Magic out earlier this year at around 8 months, or even earlier. *shrug* Not exactly the end of the world.

What was the spread for SR3?

QUOTE

Now their sourcebooks are pouring out at one or more per month. Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).

For one thing WotC is in some ways bringing out those books under multiple lines under the D&D umbrella. They are trying to keep them spread broad so they don't compete with themselves. SR has never seen that sort of production level. WW tried to pull that crap like that and were drowning themselves in dilution.

Oh, and I don't see myself dropping $120 over 4 months on just SR so I'm guessing there are quite a few people even here that would have a hard time just coming up with that money let alone rationalizing the expendature.

P.S. I think the actual breakdown is Magic, Gear/Guns/Vehicles, Cyber/Bio/Nano, and Matrix.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 07:38 PM

You don't need to have all the people spending money the instant the book hits the shelves, just a good portion of them. I know almost everyone in my group would buy them the instant they hit, at least the ones that fit their character(s).

Posted by: the_dunner May 11 2006, 08:50 PM

QUOTE (blakkie)

P.S. I think the actual breakdown is Magic, Gear/Guns/Vehicles, Cyber/Bio/Nano, and Matrix.

While Matrix isn't on the release schedule, that supposition is definitely consistent with what's listed in the 2006 http://www.fanprogames.com/fanpro/FPR2006Catalog.pdf

Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 11 2006, 08:55 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Why couldn't you just continue playing in your version of TT? It's pretty easy to tell the person, "that's a great book, but it ain't how it works in this world."

..it was dealing with the Canon junkies. Got tired of the debates on what is "correct" holding gaming sessions hostage.

In a spectacular finale, I had Prince Dugan abdicate from the Council, close her company, blow up her Laurelhurst Park estate (and take the PF installation at Hayden Island out as well just for kicks), move to the kingdom of Hawai'i, adopt her birthright and her true name ("Princess Kam" - her full name is rather long as most Hawai'ian names are). She has since re-established her innovative technology company (Aeon) and just loves pushing the envelope to some extremes that would have even Mr Spock from ST TOG call, "Fascinating".

The only writeups on the Island Kingdom are in Paradise Lost (now somewhat outdated) and a brief mention in SoA, so there is a lot of room left open compared to the TTSB.

Posted by: Synner May 11 2006, 08:58 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 07:09 PM)

Shadowrun will most likely never reach that level of production, but it could definitely support a one per month schedule for the first three or four books in SR4 (Guns and Gear, Magic, Matrix, and Vehicles).

LOL. Let's see:
WotC (before trim down this year and RPG only): 5 line developers, 6 full time editors, 4 art directors, 4 production managers, inhouse layout and outsourced art and writers.

Shadowrun: 1 line developer/editor/art director/production manager, everything outsourced.

Right. I can see where you would expect ever seeing the same sort of output level.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 11 2006, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

..it was dealing with the Canon junkies. Got tired of the debates on what is "correct" holding gaming sessions hostage.

... wow.

That's the kind of situation that'd have me telling players to take a walk. If you've got months or years of this setting already developed in a game, that's a hell of a lot of work and a hell of a lot of familiarity that's going to go straight down the drain if they're going to insist that the "book version" is correct.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 09:15 PM

Synner: I didn't say I expect it, nor that staffing levels would allow it. I said that the market for Shadowrun books could handle that release schedule, if only for the first three or four books that everybody will want.

Kyoto: A simple "shut the hell up, that book doesn't exist in this world" couldn't fix things? My sympathies. My general stance is that if I don't own the book the things in it don't exist. Generally I can borrow the book and then decide what exists, or we can drop certain things in (like new gear or spells).

Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 11 2006, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)

..it was dealing with the Canon junkies. Got tired of the debates on what is "correct" holding gaming sessions hostage.

...That's kinda what I did by pulling the plug. Got tired of trying to Crowbar my Canon into FASA'a Canon.

Of course, as I alluded to in my original comment, it has left a very interesting situation that is leading to a new campaign arc entitled "Enemy of the Tir"

Unfortunately It won't be ready to run until Street Magic and the Hacker/Rigger supplement is out (need those bleedin' vehicle design rules).

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 12 2006, 02:48 AM

QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 07:09 PM)

Sleep, it's overrated!

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 12 2006, 02:52 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 10 2006, 09:12 PM)

I understand that, but my point is they ended the 3rd ed line, but the 4th ed line has not really been picked up. Like they laid down one sword without taking up a new one, but forgetting to quit the fight. Or Tarzan, swinging through the jungle lets go of the vine that falls behind him and kind of forgets to grab the one ahead of him. (Watch out for that TREE!)

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 12 2006, 03:04 AM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

Man, I was so pissed off when SR2 came out. They abandoned 1st ed! Those of us who wouldn't switch were just going on with the stuff we had and no incentive to switch over to 2nd ed...

I hated SR2 too. They should've stuck to SR1, it was perfect Shadowrun. The only reason I switched to SR3 is because all my SR1 stuff got stolen. SR3 was an attempted fix at a broken SR2. SR4 is (pardon my expression) dumbed down. That's why I don't play D&D 3.5 (whatever they're on), or WW.
So, that's what I'm doing with SR3, holding on to it until it falls apart (or gets stolen).
But anyway, I would like to see some back history books (2065-2070) and more current events (What is Karl Kombatmage up to in 2070?).

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 12 2006, 03:11 AM

QUOTE (Synner @ May 11 2006, 08:58 PM)

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 11 2006, 07:09 PM)

I'm failing to see why that's our problem? Hire more people and take our money!
Get all those stupid rules books out of the way (but wait, if SR4 is so perfect, why do you need more rule books, won't it just complicate things?), and get to making setting books.

Posted by: Dog May 12 2006, 03:49 AM

I've been taking my sweet time picking up SR4 looking it over, sharing and discussing with my buds, etc. I finally have formed an opinion.

I'm in the same camp as Rajaat99. I'll play SR3 until I can't play no more. If SR4 isn't impressing me by then, I'll probably have to look for something new. As it stands, there's just nothing in SR4 to make the change worthwhile. New rules does not a new edition make. It feels incomplete and skeletal, and lacks character.

Posted by: blakkie May 12 2006, 04:46 AM

QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 11 2006, 09:11 PM)

I'm failing to see why that's our problem? Hire more people and take our money!

I can just imagine the ruckus, not to mention lack of sales, that would be raised with an US$100 retail price on Street Magic.

QUOTE

Get all those stupid rules books out of the way (but wait, if SR4 is so perfect, why do you need more rule books, won't it just complicate things?), and get to making setting books.

I personally find SR4 very playable without the extra books, and would hate to see Fanpro take the attitude of "getting them out of the way". But then i don't play with canon junkies and am comfortable with converted stuff and stuff just made up, especially things NPC. Nor do we play a really high powered game, we started new 400BP characters with this edition.

P.S. Fanpro is already, i believe, in the editting process for the first setting book. Not to mention the numerous ones already out that are largely still relavent and are virtually edition independant.

Posted by: Synner May 12 2006, 11:58 AM

QUOTE (blakkie @ May 12 2006, 04:46 AM)

P.S. Fanpro is already, i believe, in the editting process for the first setting book. Not to mention the numerous ones already out that are largely still relavent and are virtually edition independant.

FanPro currently has no less than 6 books in various stages of production (with On the Run and the GM screen already out). Runner Havens , the first in a series of core setting books, will be the next up - it is in the very final stages of development. All the remaining releases for 2006 are also in development as well as a couple of surprises.

Posted by: Ophis May 12 2006, 12:01 PM

Any chance on a release date for runner havens?

Just wondering, I'm eager to see it.

Posted by: Adam May 12 2006, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

Sleep, it's overrated!

Having just worked about 18 hours straight through on one book, and then woken up at 6AM to work until I drop again ... sleep, sometimes, is quite nice.

Posted by: John Campbell May 12 2006, 01:03 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ May 10 2006, 05:04 PM)

It's worse than that. They abandoned 3rd ed. Those of us who won't switch are just going on with the stuff we have and no incentive to go to 4th ed.

Man, I was so pissed off when SR2 came out. They abandoned 1st ed! Those of us who wouldn't switch were just going on with the stuff we had and no incentive to switch over to 2nd ed...

SR2 and SR3 were incremental improvements on SR1. They're not fully back-compatible, but you can port stuff from one to the next with a reasonable degree of success, and the changes were small enough that it was only the few people whose particular sacred cow got gored (initiative and grounding are probably the most common ones for SR2->3) who wouldn't upgrade... and even then, many of them upgraded and just kept the old rule in place, because, as an incremental upgrade, you could do that.

SR4 is not incremental. Whether it's an improvement is a matter of opinion.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 12 2006, 09:36 PM

Jeez, people, my tongue was in my cheek the whole time. I wasn't serious.

And nobody answered my question... can anybody name another game publisher that made a new edition of a game, but kept putting out products for the old edition? I don't see a precedent here.

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 12 2006, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

The closest I can think of is ICE with HARP and RoleMaster.

Not really what you're asking for but HARP is kinda like a watered down basic set of RM.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite May 12 2006, 09:49 PM

Personally, I would have loved to see the SR4 core come out and then all the rules supplements (Street Magic, Unwired, etc.) come out within the year, at most. But there are logistics to consider that have been mentioned already. A good chunk of the freelancers were neck-deep in the writing/testing of SR4 Core and therefore wouldn't have been available to be writing the supplements at the same time. Most of the remaining freelancers who weren't writing SR4 Core (like myself) were writing System Failure at the time. Not to mention the Fourth Edition development was secret even to some of us, so we couldn't have been working on SR4 books (since we didn't know there'd be an SR4!). I started my System Failure writing completely unaware it would be the last SR3 book.

Street Magic is taking longer than I'd like as a fan. But I also know how much work we're putting into and how much playtesting is required for it to come out solid. Being privy to that, I feel it's worth it. The delay is better than half-assing a book like that, in my opinion.

Personally, I also think we need a bigger freelancer pool so we can be writing more material simultaneously. All I can recommend there is that people who are interested do stuff like get involved in the website fiction so you come to the notice of Rob and the assistant devs.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 12 2006, 09:50 PM

QUOTE

...Can anybody name another game publisher that made a new edition of a game, but kept putting out products for the old edition?

Well, we could argue Classic Battletech vs Mechwarrior, or Earthdawn and Earthdawn - but those are different publishers.

Posted by: emo samurai May 12 2006, 10:03 PM

How soon did Magic in the Shadows come after SR3 core?

Posted by: Adam May 12 2006, 10:05 PM

SR3 came out in August 1998; Magic in the Shadows was roughly March 1999. The last SR3 rulebook was Rigger 3, rushed out the door when FASA was closing in early 2001.

Posted by: blakkie May 12 2006, 10:13 PM

Ya, I remember that Rigger 3 took a long time to come out. Then got re-release a year or two later. Matrix took a couple years too, or at least year and a half don't remember what time of year it came out in 2000. Cannon Companion was in 2000 as well.

Was magic the first one out for SR3 too? Checking the copyrights at the front of the books Man & Machine, MitS, and SR Comp all came out the calendar year following the BBB.

Posted by: Adam May 12 2006, 10:18 PM

If I'm remembering things correctly, the SR3 Companion was first, then MitS, then Man & Machine, Matrix, Cannon Companion, Rigger 3. FASA's story was that they never intended to update the Companion to SR3, but changed their minds in the middle of '98 and fast-tracked it for a release early the next year.

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 13 2006, 03:41 AM

QUOTE (blakkie)

QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 11 2006, 09:11 PM)

I'm failing to see why that's our problem? Hire more people and take our money!

I can just imagine the ruckus, not to mention lack of sales, that would be raised with an US$100 retail price on Street Magic.

QUOTE

Get all those stupid rules books out of the way (but wait, if SR4 is so perfect, why do you need more rule books, won't it just complicate things?), and get to making setting books.

Lack of sales? What? Many of you freaks would kill for Street Magic. And why would it have to be $100.00? You make no sense.
Besides, like I said, not our problem. I don't care how many people work for Fan Pro, I want my books. If they can't release them fast enough, then I won't wait 4 years to get one, I'll do it myself and then they lose money.
I want them to "get them out of the way", because I'm not buying the rule books, I want to buy setting books.
And I didn't mention anything about the numerous ones already out, I have them, I've read them and I want more.
Where'd you find the info on the setting book that's in editting?

Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 13 2006, 04:31 AM

QUOTE (blakkie)

....I feel the same way about canon & CJs. After the aforementioned aborted TT campaign, I pretty much now stand by the Shadowrun world as I see it. Yeah I still get complaints from time to time (like when I introduced the "Sensitive" [Empath] archetype as an NPC in my last campaign). However, I find much of the fun of working up a campaign is personalising it to a degree. I have successfully ran several "single session" missions and was satisfied with how they went. I am currently working on a slightly longer scenario (3 - 4 session depending on what the characters do) but am not looking to do a major arc on the level of "Drivetime" (SR1 - 2) or "Rhapsody in Shadow" (SR3 - which by the way I would still like to get published) until some of the other supplements are released.

The only thng I still have difficulty with is when there is a much needed mechanic - such as vehicle design - that has not been re-introduced in SR4 yet. Extrapolating from, Rigger 3 really doesn't work very well since the basis for vehicle attributes and performance has been changed.

On the other hand, things, like new Adept Powers, Character Qualities, weapons & basic gear (or old ones that were not included in the base rules) are somewhat easier to work up by simply using the same framework from SR3 and adjusting for the SR4 mechanic (BPs, Power Points, DV etc.).

Posted by: SirBedevere May 13 2006, 10:32 AM

I can see why FanPro doesn't continue supporting SR3. SR4 is the way they intend to go. I don't like it which is why I have taken my gaming dollars (or pounds in my case) elsewhere.

Posted by: John Campbell May 13 2006, 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ May 12 2006, 04:36 PM)

Jeez, people, my tongue was in my cheek the whole time. I wasn't serious.

The irony was apparent, but it wasn't obvious which direction you were going with it.

QUOTE

And nobody answered my question... can anybody name another game publisher that made a new edition of a game, but kept putting out products for the old edition? I don't see a precedent here.

TSR ran the D&D and AD&D lines in parallel for quite some years. (Though I don't think I've ever actually met anyone who played D&D much after AD&D came out... but someone must have been, or they wouldn't have kept producing stuff for it.)

Battletech and MW:DA (does anyone play Clickywarrior anymore?) might qualify, too, though that's a rather more extreme case than even a radically altered new edition.

I seem to recall that one of the old games that switched to d20 has dual stat sets in its sourcebooks, for d20 and the older system, but I don't remember which it was...

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 13 2006, 06:07 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

Bite your tounge!

D&D Rules Cyclopedia - basically the basic, companion, expert, master, and immortal sets combined into one hardback. Great for running one shot games when you didn't want to break out the countless 1e books.

Posted by: mfb May 13 2006, 06:41 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

I seem to recall that one of the old games that switched to d20 has dual stat sets in its sourcebooks, for d20 and the older system, but I don't remember which it was...

at least two that i know of--Deadlands and L5R. L5R has stopped doing so, since WotC basically bent them over the table. i don't believe Deadlands does it anymore either, as they're switching over to Savage Worlds.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 13 2006, 06:57 PM

Fading suns for the trifecta

Posted by: James McMurray May 13 2006, 11:46 PM

QUOTE (Smilin_Jack)

I once had my d20 group hurled backwards through time. I simulated it by converting the characters to the D&D Cyclopedia and running Sabre River (the campaign was just barely in the epic range, so it worked out pretty well). By the end of it they were begging to get back tot he world they knew.

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 14 2006, 01:10 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Heh.

Introducing d20 players to the mechanics of basic/1e d&d is just cruel.

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 04:22 AM

It turned out to be pretty fun. Sabre River is a pretty neat adventure if you don't mind having to do a little railroading. I never did, because they knew their only route home lay in solving the mystery, but a GM without that built in motivator might have to.

Posted by: blakkie May 14 2006, 01:00 PM

QUOTE (Smilin_Jack @ May 13 2006, 07:10 PM)

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 13 2006, 06:46 PM)

Heh.

Introducing d20 players to the mechanics of basic/1e d&d is just cruel.

I would have quit playing. Just glacing in those old books, which i have around, brings back too much rules pain.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 14 2006, 03:53 PM

You know, near where is live there is a river than legend says holds the rotting corpse of a GM who tried tht on his players

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 14 2006, 05:27 PM

Guardians of order have a Tri-Stat system and a D20 system for many of their games. The Tri-Stat system was first, so D20 was another edition, per se. Thy still support both.

Posted by: Adam May 14 2006, 06:37 PM

With the exception of Silver Age Sentinels [and the deluxe A Game of Thrones RPG], GoO didn't dual-stat any game lines; almost all their properties that had both d20 and Tri-Stat versions had distinct products, even if they carried the same name.

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 08:37 PM

Eh, we had fun. Besides, if it would have made blakkie quit my game I'd have done it the first time he sat at the table.

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 15 2006, 02:17 AM

I understand it makes no sense to keep 3rd Ed going when you've borught out 4th ed. I understand completely. BUT My point was they ended 3rd ed. Brought out 4th Ed's core book and then....well? Runners Havens does have my interest but none of the other stuff.

My complaint was that they know they needed to do core books- magic, matrix, cyberware, wheels, weapons, but didn't. they didn't have them on the lnie and not releasing them. Just convert the wheel and weapons books the way they converted almost unchanged the "companion" between 2nd and 3rd ed's. Yes long time posters will remember I was pissed at that but there are poeplew who are playing 4th ed and want the back up. Drawing it out like this is losing the market they might have otherwise capitalized. I predict people will get tired of waiting, drift back to 3rd ed with the bits they liked from 4, like the matrix which seems to be the best thing, and use the 3rd ed rules since htose are well developed.

Anyone suprised to learn I haven't bought 4th ed yet and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. anyone? anyone at all?

Adam, sleep. That's an order. Or else i shall torment you over every flaw the editor misses.

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 15 2006, 02:31 AM

QUOTE (Adam @ May 14 2006, 06:37 PM)

BESM has a tri-stat and a D20 also. I don't know about how different they are, I only play tri-stat.
So, they're different "editions" then, huh?

Posted by: blakkie May 15 2006, 02:51 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 14 2006, 02:37 PM)

Eh, we had fun. Besides, if it would have made blakkie quit my game I'd have done it the first time he sat at the table.

You'd have to have beer on tap and free hookers (and quality ones; none of those cheap $20 trash, or your sister) to get me to sit at any table you were at. You'd then have to cut your tongue out to get me to stay.

At that point you could decide to use whatever rules you wanted, I'd just drink, "socialize", and generally ignore both you and the game.

Posted by: blakkie May 15 2006, 03:08 AM

QUOTE (Rajaat99)

Lack of sales? What? Many of you freaks would kill for Street Magic. And why would it have to be $100.00? You make no sense.

You suggest staffing up. Where do you expect the money to come from? If you think that FanPro would see two or three times the sales by bringing out all the books at once (faster than D&D 3e) instead of over a range of time similar to SR3 then you are seriously delusional. You might get an initial surge somewhat higher than just releasing one book, but you'll see trailing off. Meanwhile you now have 2 or 3 times the payroll to feed. So you what? Turf these guys you just hired on and got up to speed?

Posted by: Adam May 15 2006, 03:09 AM

Snow Fox: I'm getting at least 4 hours a day, I promise. I'm actually crunching hard to finish the new Classic BattleTech core book, as it's being printed overseas, so it needs to go to press before the end of the month.

QUOTE (Rajaat99)

BESM has a tri-stat and a D20 also. I don't know about how different they are, I only play tri-stat.
So, they're different "editions" then, huh?

Yes. There are only two books that are available for both BESM Tri-Stat [second edition] and BESM d20, and those are Centauri Knights and Uresia, both setting books with minimal game mechanics content. In terms of original content, the BESM Second Edition line was more or less stagnant by the time BESM d20 came out ... I think the only non-licensed BESM Tri-Stat book that came out after BESM d20 was BESM Space Fantasy.

There were also a couple licensed anime books [Hellsing and Trigun] that shared the same source material, but had rules/stats for each system, and a series of licensed anime books [Slayers] that had Tri-Stat and d20 versions that were entirely different, even the source material.

[I worked for Guardians of Order full-time for about two years, from late 2002 to late 2004, which is why I can remember all this stuff just like I was there -- because I was.

]

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 03:13 AM

QUOTE (blakkie)

Woo hoo! There's no chance blakkie will ever come to one of my gaming sessions! Scratch that one off the nightmares list. Whew!

Out of curiosity, what's so wrong with you that you'd have to get high priced hookers drunk to get some? I mean apart from your social and intellectual autism? -zing!-

Posted by: blakkie May 15 2006, 03:22 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 14 2006, 09:13 PM)

QUOTE (blakkie)

Woo hoo! There's no chance blakkie will ever come to one of my gaming sessions! Scratch that one off the nightmares list. Whew!

Out of curiosity, what's so wrong with you that you'd have to get high priced hookers drunk to get some? I mean apart from your social and intellectual autism? -zing!-

"Zing"? :/

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 03:30 AM

Sorry, I suppose that flew over your intellectual radar.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=zing

Look at the third block, first definition. If you need any of the bigger words explained I'l be happy to help.

Posted by: Adam May 15 2006, 03:33 AM

Admin post: Both of you will be zinging and zanging while I'm banning if this continues.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 03:45 AM

Sorry, it was all meant in fun (hence the smileys).

Back on topic: It would be great if FP could hire a few temporary folks to push the product out the door. I know my group would snatch them up as quick as possible. And as long as the people hired knew it was a temporary contrctual gig there'd be no concerns of unfair practices or anything like that. But I'm from the software world, where about 1/3 of any given business can be short term contractors. I'm not sure if freelance writing works the same or not.

Posted by: emo samurai May 15 2006, 03:46 AM

I'm sure that if it did, there'd be 300% more problems with canon.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 03:55 AM

Not as long as the final product was put through a rigorous approval process by the bigwigs in charge. Heck, even just a "this is how to convert stuff" and a "here are your 4 chapters" could speed the process up greatly by putting the tedious conversion process into other hands while the primary differences between the editions (major rules changes and unwired for example) were left in more canon-capable hands.

I know it won't happen though. It's just a dream of mine to be able to stroll into my FLGS and grab every Shadowrun book on the to be released list.

Posted by: Adam May 15 2006, 03:58 AM

FanPro does use freelancers for many tasks, just like most gaming companies do. That's what I am; I have no salary, no benefits, nobody buying me a new office chair when it breaks [which sucks, because I'd really like a new chair]. There are, however, only so many people that are willing to work for game industry rates that also possess the necessary understanding/skills in order to do the work.

You can't just add people and expect stuff to magically get done faster. As I'm sure you've seen in your field, sometimes adding people can actually make the process slower and lower quality, and some processes simply can't be sped up all that much [I'm thinking specifically of writing, which, if you speed up by adding multiple people, requires more time to edit/develop into a more cohesive whole, and playtesting, which, no matter how many playtest groups you have, will still take a certain number of weeks to do -- and the more playtesters you have, the more work it is to take the feedback and integrate it...]

Posted by: Laser May 15 2006, 04:21 AM

Brooks' law: adding more people to a late software project will only make it later. (Paraphrased: nine women cannot make one baby in one month). That applies to other kinds of projects, of course...

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 15 2006, 05:48 AM

QUOTE (blakkie @ May 15 2006, 03:08 AM)

QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 12 2006, 09:41 PM)

Lack of sales? What? Many of you freaks would kill for Street Magic. And why would it have to be $100.00? You make no sense.

Oh, you think SR has a low fan base. I see. I disagree, but then again, maybe I'm just "delusional".
If they produced books faster, they would make profit faster. Get it?
If you produced books and then stopped, you'd be correct. I'm talking about making books contantly, not stopping.
Stopping production stops profits. Slow production = slow profits. Fast production = fast profits. That makes more sense.
And besides, I've said it 3 times now, not my problem, I want my books now.

Posted by: Synner May 15 2006, 08:25 AM

QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 15 2006, 05:48 AM)

Oh, you think SR has a low fan base. I see. I disagree, but then again, maybe I'm just "delusional".

Shadowrun does have a small fanbase, comparatively. There's a reason why, even with SR4, FanPro only climbed to 3rd in industry share last year (at least according to pundits). Compared to WotC and WW (together about 80% of the market), FanPro's SR market is small and print runs are planned accordingly.

Furthermore your analysis is incorrect because it fails to take into account elements like distribution, store presence, or the target audience's acquisition rate and a number of other realities of the speciality publisher's market and the current state of the RPG industry.

Releasing 1 book a month does not equate to 1 book on the shelves per month. Nor does it guarantee that "fast profits" since a) there is a time lapse between release and it showing up at the FLGS which is out of the publishers hands for the most part, and b) the fact that the book is on sale does not equate to immediate sales or even guaranteed sales. Having 2-3 books out in short order means you've got a significant amount of operational capital tied up in each which might or might not see fast returns.

Ideally, FanPro would like to release 4-6 books a year, and that's what they'll be going for as soon as they get over the initial core book hump.

Posted by: blakkie May 15 2006, 11:39 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 14 2006, 09:30 PM)

Sorry, I suppose that flew over your intellectual radar.

I am aware of the word. I was just dismayed by you thinking that YOUR inability to read constituted a "zing". I don't know, maybe your post would have more traction if i didn't personally know autistic kids that are still too young for grade school that would give your reading comprehension a run for it's money inspite of their difficulties with some literary devices.

Anyway, back to topic......

QUOTE (Rajaat99)

Stopping production stops profits. Slow production = slow profits. Fast production = fast profits. That makes more sense. And besides, I've said it 3 times now, not my problem, I want my books now.

You wanting their books now is indeed your problem.

Your simplistic model of everyone that normally buys SR books will buy whatever they put on the shelf. 12+ SR books per year @ $20-$30 a pop for an extended period? I don't spend $300/year on P&P in total, and certainly wouldn't. There might be a few "gotta catch them all" folks that might, but even among them a lot would become entirely disgusted by what they'd see as them being milked and step off the train entirely.

I'm with you that i'd like to have seen Street Magic early. Probably by about 2 months ago. But i'm partially consoled to hear that at least part of the reason is that they are delayed is they are attempting to have all those *books work with each other before releasing the first one.

Posted by: Adam May 15 2006, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Synner)

Ideally, FanPro would like to release 4-6 books a year, and that's what they'll be going for as soon as they get over the initial core book hump.

4-6 Shadowrun titles, of course. Certainly more than 6 books on the overall FanPro schedule this year...

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 15 2006, 03:32 PM

I know where I work when they rush in new people I seem to spend most of my day correcting their problems. I think the complaint about the speed on the 4th ed is that they have planned the release poorly. That there are books they knew about needing. Books they could have had partially done when 4th ed came out, but did not.

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 15 2006, 05:49 PM

QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 15 2006, 05:48 AM)

Oh, you think SR has a low fan base. I see. I disagree, but then again, maybe I'm just "delusional".

Well, if I have to wait this long for every book, maybe SR's fanbase will shirnk a little smaller.

QUOTE (blakkie @ May 15 2006, 11:39 AM)

I easily spend $300 a year on RPG stuff, maybe I'm just hardcore. I know a few "gotta catch them all" folks, I certainly was 1 with 3rd Ed. And I was disgusted with all the good stuff coming out, then the switch to 4th. I didn't really see it as being milked though, oh well.
Alright then, you guys win. I'll make up my own stuff and not wait around for Fan Pro to put out canon material. That way I know the setting won't suck and I'll have more money!

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 06:52 PM

QUOTE (blakkie)

YOUR inability to read

This from a guy who apparently couldnt' read Adam's post.

QUOTE

Brooks' law: adding more people to a late software project will only make it later. (Paraphrased: nine women cannot make one baby in one month). That applies to other kinds of projects, of course...

Too true. I've seen it happen. What's really funny (or tragic, depending on your perspective) is when they add several new people without clearances to a cleared project, when that project is using a new tool that none of the new people have experience with. Then they start having a meeting every day to try and figure out why schedule keeps slipping.

I'm not sure where the cutoff line is for sourcebook creation, but a template [plus conversion standards might speed the process some, putting the editing of those sections more into a "check for spelling and grammar." But like I said, my experience with writing RPGs is practically nil. It's more of a "want more now!" then a "this is what I know would work."

Posted by: Eldritch May 15 2006, 07:18 PM

QUOTE

Well, if I have to wait this long for every book, maybe SR's fanbase will shirnk a little smaller.

Truth there.

Gamer shows up to store with money, looks for newest SR product and doesn't find it. Most gamers I've seen, will look for something else - either in a another line they play, or will shop around for something new - Gamers can't hold onto money long, when they get it they want to buy something.

They go back a month later with more money, and still no New SR materiel. But look, theres something else in some other line they play. Pretty soon, the SR materiel drops down a few notches due to inactivity, and it won't be the first thing they look for anymore.

Or they could be buying other companys products to add into their existing SR Game; d20 cyber this, Gurps that, someone elses magic supplement, then shoe horn it into their game.

Pretty soon, they aren't even looking for SR because it does not seem that the company is supporting it anymore.

It seems a little insane that this two person show is adding another line, when they cannot seem to keep up with what they have.

Posted by: Adam May 15 2006, 07:50 PM

The Degenesis line is being managed by someone who was not currently doing much work for FanPro -- Davidson Cole, who used to work for FASA.

Posted by: blakkie May 15 2006, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE (blakkie @ May 15 2006, 06:39 AM)

YOUR inability to read

This from a guy who apparently couldnt' read Adam's post.

Woooott!!!!!! Way to STFU!!!!

Bye.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 08:48 PM

LOL

What's the Degenesis line? I couldn't find a readily available link to it on fanpro.com.

Posted by: Adam May 15 2006, 08:50 PM

FanPro.com is FanPro GmbH's site; FanProGames.com is FanPro LLC's site for English-language products.

http://www.fanprogames.com/?p=32 for the Degenesis press release.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 09:02 PM

Thanks! It looks pretty cool. Is there more info available or is that it for now?

Posted by: Adam May 15 2006, 09:11 PM

There's one page about it in the 2006 catalog, which is also linked on a recent post on fanprogames.com, but nothing beyond that. We're working on getting the website translated and built -- there's some good stuff on the german site, including the full corebook in PDF format. It's in German, obviously, but you'll get a great idea of the visual style of the game by looking at it. Degenesis.de for the German site.