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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Technomancer Questions

Posted by: coolgrafix May 11 2006, 07:01 PM

A guy in my group is working on a technomancer and has some questions. I haven't made a TM before so without some research I'm just as clueless. See below...

QUOTE

I’ve read over that stuff in the book several times, and there’s some stuff that just isn’t clear.

1) It makes it pretty clear that technomancers don’t use comlinks like regular hackers, that they just access the matrix with their minds. They also point out that if they want to save data, they have to transfer it to some kind of storage medium. The question becomes, what does the technomancer use to access the data chip…does he need some kind of device to read it, or can he just access the data stored on a data chip?

2) They are very sketchy on the drones and what it takes / or if you can upgrade different systems on them…ie, give them thermographic sensors, boost the signal…etc.

Any thoughts on these questions, or can you point me in a direction?

Any insight is appreciated.

Posted by: Glayvin34 May 11 2006, 07:25 PM

I played a TM for a few runs and got totally sick of him. They are so limited in their non-Matrix abilities, because they have to burn so much Karma and can't do 'ware. But that's my beef.

QUOTE (coolgrafix)

1) It makes it pretty clear that technomancers don’t use comlinks like regular hackers, that they just access the matrix with their minds. They also point out that if they want to save data, they have to transfer it to some kind of storage medium. The question becomes, what does the technomancer use to access the data chip…does he need some kind of device to read it, or can he just access the data stored on a data chip?

Datachips aren't wireless, but most other devices are. A signal 1 chip is only 10 nuyen, so I don't see why a TM couldn't have a wireless datachip. We decided in my game that TMs also have organic skinlinks, so you could have a skinlinked datachip adhered to the body somewhere. Or if the TM has ANY other wireless device like a drone, smartlinked gun or glasses, then data can be stored there.

QUOTE (coolgrafix)

2) They are very sketchy on the drones and what it takes / or if you can upgrade different systems on them…ie, give them thermographic sensors, boost the signal…etc.

As far as individual types of sensors go, a drone can hold a number dependent on its size, check the table on page 325. If one of those sensors is a camera, you can load appropriate visual mods on it, like Thermographics or Ultrasound or whatever.
What sucks is that you can't upgrade the base sensor rating of a Drone. So if you're rigging a vehicle, most of them have a 1 in sensor that you're stuck with.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 07:33 PM

Where does it say you can't upgrade the sensor rating on a drone?

Posted by: coolgrafix May 11 2006, 07:34 PM

As an addition to my initial question, here's the reference on not having headware storage:

QUOTE

SR4 page 233
Technomancers have no form of organic storage memory whatsoever, so if they want to download a file, they need to mentally transfer it to a physical storage device.

"Mentally transfer to a physical storage device" sounds a little spooky. =) Reminds me of the ghost in The Ring.

But presumably, this means that data in the TM's head can be transferred to a device connected to the Matrix, e.g. a commlink or other device. Taken to an extreme, it could probably be argued that the spooky freak, er I mean technomancer, could "mentally transfer" the data onto a CD or something. The term "physical storage device" is vague at best.

Posted by: Glayvin34 May 11 2006, 07:39 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Where does it say you can't upgrade the sensor rating on a drone?

Where are the rules for doing so?

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 07:46 PM

I don't have the book with me. Is sensor one of the things listed with costs in the wireless world section? If so, that's where the rules are. If not, then ignore me.

Posted by: Glayvin34 May 11 2006, 08:12 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

I don't have the book with me. Is sensor one of the things listed with costs in the wireless world section? If so, that's where the rules are. If not, then ignore me.

Just rules for upgrading Signal rating, not Sensor rating. I think leaving that out is a pretty silly omission. You could just duct tape an iBall to the roof of your Step-Van and use it for sensor tests given that the iBall has a better rating.
I'm going to convince my GM to let me disassemble a drone and put its sensors in my vehicle.

Posted by: DireRadiant May 11 2006, 08:16 PM

P 240 Hardware Upgrade Costs only shows the costs to raise response. Raising the base drone sensor attribute isn't addressed.

The only thing close is the Missile has + Sensor Rating X 500 cost which is what I would do if nothing else appears.

Posted by: Big D May 11 2006, 08:22 PM

As a TM, I'd carry around a pair commlinks anyways.

One would be my cover, as discussed in several threads.

The other would be my portable army--chock full of agents to supplement my sprites and run "normal" programs that I don't have CFs for.

That also takes care of your chip reading and writing needs.

Posted by: mdynna May 11 2006, 08:26 PM

Oh no not the "I've got an Agent army" strategy again. Take a look at my http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12007&hl=multi-commlink+hacking+rules before you get too excited.

Posted by: Big D May 11 2006, 08:39 PM

Err, the commlink wouldn't be hacked into the node--you'd just pull agents off of it, pass them through your persona, and plop them on the node. I guess I'm missing why that's so wrong, when a decker with a single commlink can do the same thing.

I'm not sure why the "agent army" is setting off so many bells for you--it's mostly a last-ditch measure, because there is pretty much no way that you're not going to set off security dropping a horde of agents onto the system (I do think there needs to be limits and restrictions clarified on how far this can be taken, though, because you're essentially stealing their own CPU to fight them).

And attracting attention is generally a bad thing.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 11 2006, 08:43 PM

Even if you don't set off the alarms, wouldn't the agents?

Posted by: mdynna May 11 2006, 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Big D)

...pass them through your persona, and plop them on the node

That's the part that I'm trying to limit. Your explanation is a little "hand wavey."

The rules are pretty clear on running Agents on the Commlink you are currently controlling, but I don't want things to get out of hand for Agents running on other Commlinks. My rules say that if the Agent is running on a Commlink, then the Persona for that Commlink must be present in the node when the Agents get loaded.

Posted by: Divine Virus May 11 2006, 09:16 PM

What I do to get around signal rating is attach a portable satalite to my rigged vehicles. Also, I tend to have a renraku Stormcloud with a Portable sattalight and a enhanced system. I then daisychain my drones so that none have much in the way of dimished response, then save the ringleader drones to the stormcloud, then suscribe to the stormcloud. Have the stormcloud as high up as possible, and then just float around relaying commands.

Posted by: Glayvin34 May 11 2006, 09:58 PM

QUOTE (Divine Virus)

I guess that helps signal rating, but then you have all your Eggs in One Stormcloud. All someone needs is a successful Matrix Perception test to start Spoofing to all your Drones at once and telling them to take your comm off their subscription list. Then your Stromcloud will probably fly away, never to be seen again.

I have a separate droneComm that isn't connected directly to the Matrix so it can't have a successful Matrix Perception test on it done very easily. The drones have high signal ratings and are only subscribed to the droneComm. Spoofing is more or less out of the question, but an enemy could use Sniffer and edit the packets being sent to and fro, either giving the droneComm faulty sensor data or telling the drone itself to attack comrades. So I minimize wireless traffic to avoid such a problem, usually only subscribing to scout drones. In active combat they are generally instructed to not accept wireless Commands. Yes, I have to go physically plug my commlink into each one after combat to Command them to obey wireless instructions again.

Posted by: Divine Virus May 12 2006, 04:19 AM

Thing is that the character is a TM, so I put a Machine sprite in it (so I guess forget what I said about highted system, don't know what I was talking about there. Must have gottten confused. I am so tired right now). Anyway, only resonace things can spoof it, and those tend to be few. Enough that for me to put all ends in one basket. plus I have a backup stormcloud.

Posted by: Glayvin34 May 12 2006, 04:57 AM

Hm. Good point, there you have it. I guess that's why TMs think Hackers do things bass-ackwards and vice versa.

Posted by: Cain May 12 2006, 07:38 AM

QUOTE (mdynna)

Oh no not the "I've got an Agent army" strategy again. Take a look at my http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12007&hl=multi-commlink+hacking+rules before you get too excited.

The problem really isn't the Agent Army trick. The problem is that Teamwork tests need work, and are easily abused in the RAW. Rather than slapping patches on every time a rule gets broken, I think it'd be better to fix the rule. In this case, I'd find a sensible way of limiting the number of people who can participate in a teamwork test.

Posted by: Dranem May 12 2006, 07:59 AM

Why would a TM even bother with programs and agents? They would seem crude and difficult to handle. Although a Complexe Form behaves 'simular' to a program, the code and interaction is completely different.
While a hacker loads programs, a TM simply uses the proper form to do the task, threading the process if they haven't already learned that particular form yet.

A TM doesn't actually code or program like your every day computer user, they weave and form the processes they seek to use, much like an artist molds clay to make a sculpture.

My technomancers usually keep at least a fly-spy drone as a means of storing data, if not, then an off-line commlink (read personal computer) as a data storage device.

As for boosting your drone: a drone sensor pod can add on to the drone's usualy assortment of sensors (if you don't mind the added components) - though you could probably only do this for Medium size drones or larger.

Posted by: wavydavy May 12 2006, 01:23 PM

QUOTE (Dranem)

Why would a TM even bother with programs and agents? They would seem crude and difficult to handle. Although a Complexe Form behaves 'simular' to a program, the code and interaction is completely different.
[snip]
A TM doesn't actually code or program like your every day computer user, they weave and form the processes they seek to use, much like an artist molds clay to make a sculpture.

Indeed, and according the rules, it would be expensive to do both the TM way and the Hacker way

QUOTE (SR4 @ p233)

Aside from the Resonance skills that technomancers
use to handle sprites (see p. 119), technomancers use the
same skills common to hackers—Computer, Cybercombat,
Data Search, Electronic Warfare, Hacking, Hardware, and
Soft ware. The way technomancers use these skills, however, is
vastly diff erent from the way non-technomancers use them.
Technomancers, aft er all, exercise these skills through mental
gymnastics and an intuitive feel for the functioning of the machine
world—they don’t learn to use electronics so much as
they learn to make devices do what they want.

This means that the technomancer versions of these skills
are fundamentally different from the standard versions. In game
terms, technomancers may never teach these skills to non-technomancers,
nor are the technomancer skill versions available
as skillsofts. Technomancers may learn the normal versions of
these skills separately (or use normal skillsofts), but they inevitably
find the normal way of doing things to be hopelessly
clumsy and backward.

So the agent army idea for a TM would cost a lot, having to but seperate TM/Hacker skills.

Posted by: Big D May 12 2006, 02:28 PM

Except that there doesn't seem to be a skill required to run agents.

I'm not talking about zerging nodes with agents, for starters, that's noisy, and noisy is dead. My thinking is to keep a commlink full of agents as a last-ditch backup when things get noisy and you need to buy time; or to use a single agent with a program (you can't run the program, but the agent can) to fill in gaps that you don't have CFs for.

Why not use a sprite instead? Simple, you can have as many agents as you want (in storage, not running around making noise), and they're very expendable. That saves your sprites for helping you with key hacking tests, running drone armies, etc.