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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ How much for an unreasonable amount of memory.
Posted by: Edward May 14 2006, 05:41 AM
How much for an unreasonable amount of memory.
And a truly ludicrous quantity of data analysis
The rules for memory capacity state that any device will store any reasonable amount of information. And that it should be rare that a player should not have enough storage space.
I am about to start playing a character called data miner, one of his traits is a desire to collect information so he can cross-reference it and discover patterns, discrepancies and indications of interesting things happening. To this end when in a corporate host he is likely to copy such records as the employ database, the financial database, the inventory database, the security records and anything else of interest.
This is not what I would consider a reasonable amount of data so how much would it cost (and how heavy would it be) to have a couple of optical chips that can store an unreasonable amount of data and a computer that can run searches on truly ludicrous quantities of data (cross-referencing data from several hundred corporate divisions) (that doesn’t need to be portable).
Edward
Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 05:45 AM
Up until you start hitting a database that stores files you can have millions of records without reaching anywhere near "reasonable." If the database stores files though (like camera info for a security database) then it would depend on the company's size and how long they've been in operation.
I have absoultely no basis for it other than "it feels good," but I'd say that perhaps 500 camera-days worth of information would be reasonable. That's 720,000 minutes of storage.
I'd adjust that number based on the size of the storage device as well. If your commlink is your sunglasses you'll be storing less data then the guy whose commlink is a 1980s cell phone sized box hanging from his belt.
Posted by: Kiedo May 14 2006, 06:23 AM
I know IRL, that databases usually have thier own server, with some employee record DBs consuming a terabyte of space of more. And with giant corps like Ares and NeoNet, I couldn't see feasably even a single one fitting on a commlink, let alone the sheer amount of time it would take for a transfer.
I know as computers get better the hard drive space expands, but just look at something like windows. 3.1 fit on a single floppy (if I'm not mistaken) 95 fit on 6 floppies, and fast forward to XP, and I just right clicked on my WINDOWS folder and it reported back 2.28GBs of data (that's with service pack 2, and every update they release, not to mention all the things that the various programs add), Half-life 2 takes up an obscene amount of space.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that as technology gets bigger and better, so do the programs that run it, so if a corporate Database involving payroll that goes back ten years takes up 1 TB, I could imagine a database like that on an Ares computer system taking up something closer to 100 times that, which even using the expirimental technologies of today (like light storage), even at thier projected maxes (since light storage is only a theory right now), you'd have to have a device the size of a regular desktop computer to hold a database like that.
My suggestion would be to use common sense.
Because if you could store an Account database from Sauder-Krupp on your commlink, then all they'd need would be a commlink and a chair for thier datacenter.
but that's just my .02 
Posted by: Kanada Ten May 14 2006, 06:29 AM
I'm thinking 750¥ for the hardware to read that much data in a reasonable amount of time - this would be in addition to the commlink. Then 45¥ per reasonable corporate databank of information stored. That's about what they claim the 100 terabyte 3.5" disks will cost.
[e] I just realized what makes hacking impossible. Nodes only cost a tiny fraction of the data's value. They can afford hundreds of them: hundreds of decoy databanks, security traps, active tracking agents, even perfect simulations. Just accessing such a node would indicate a crime.
Posted by: Edward May 14 2006, 06:51 AM
I wasn’t thinking of an entire megacorp (well one day I hope to have them all but its not likely to happen) but then Ares corporate dose not hold the entire corporate database on one place. I was thinking that it would be buy division, for example Aries news media Seattle and azteche Seattle management, somebody is mentioned in both, he is a corporate spy.
Posted by: Kiedo May 14 2006, 11:28 AM
Well with corps, like governments, the best records kept directly involve money. I figured somewhere there would be a linked database that various smaller ones pulled thier information from (which is how I'd design the system if I had my way), each subsidiary would have an access code and an employee number database, but any further records would be kept in a central location, for administrative purposes and security (you'd only have to go to one place, to back up and one place for your no doubt numerous spiders to plug in).
Each off chute company would have permissions for thier employee's data only, and only a few people or groups (like board members and things) would have total administrative rights.
Now something you could do is simply download the information the subsidiary is permissioned for, and slowly over many years (I'd imagine) piece together the full database.
Come quarterly profit analysis (or something mundane like that) it would be a nightmare to check 40 different databases for errors and nuyen in/nuyen out margins.
But maybe I'm thinking too logistically.
Another option you could consider is creating a dedicated storage device (other than datachips), similar to a wifi enabled USB drive.
Something like:
But that's just one option and I slapped my own (fictional) conpanie's name on it, but your welcome to show that to you GM and change things to suit your needs.
It's also a little more (well a lot more) expensive than kanada Ten's suggestion, but it explains away (or at least tries to) why there aren't thousands of commlinks acting as dummy servers to store the FAR more valuable information.
Posted by: Kiedo May 14 2006, 11:48 AM
I guess you'd need some custom rules for the workstation too wouldn't you.
let me know if I missed anything, and I hope that helps.
Posted by: Edward May 14 2006, 08:01 PM
Kiedo./ remember the subsidiaries are usually run as separate corporations, you do the profit loss statements for each small corp, check them individually and then pas those up the chain. A company usually would not care about the minor details of employees of a company it owns. SK being an exception, the dragon likes to know all the little details.
I do like your suggested system however, I will attempt to convince my GM to let me use it.
Edward
Posted by: mfb May 14 2006, 09:10 PM
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| [e] I just realized what makes hacking impossible. Nodes only cost a tiny fraction of the data's value. They can afford hundreds of them: hundreds of decoy databanks, security traps, active tracking agents, even perfect simulations. Just accessing such a node would indicate a crime. |
the problem is keeping track of that massive load of false data. how do you keep your own people from accessing the false data instead of the real data? any means you'd use to clarify matters for your people would be easily discovered and used by hackers.
Posted by: Kiedo May 15 2006, 12:28 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
the problem is keeping track of that massive load of false data. how do you keep your own people from accessing the false data instead of the real data? any means you'd use to clarify matters for your people would be easily discovered and used by hackers. |
not nessicarily, if you had each entry coded, with say a case sensitive 32 digit alpha numeric string, and hard coded into the search software to ignore all entries who's 13th letter is not a capital "R", then unless your hacker decomplied your program, or got hold of the source code there would be no way for him/her to tell what was real and what was not. esecially if the entries for other documents were formatted identically and cross refrenceable.
Edward, I could debate the database issue with you for the next week, but really all it boils down to would be your GM, and how he chooses to distribute the data. I am glad, however that I could be of some help with the data storage system, I had a similar character(except he targeted just anything involving the draco foundation) in an SR3 run I did years ago, and made that stuff for him. At first he had a couple storage units on a desk in his apartment, then the team rigger got a van, and he moved them into the van, and got a few more, then towards when he retired he had so many that he bought a lifestyle, just to store the units in, and had almost an exact copy of the draco foundation's computer system. We even made a magazine style system for his deck that allowed for the small storage units to be swapped out quickly, so he could store pieces of a massive file system (such as payroll) on the devices and not have to make multiple trips.
The street sam also started buying them for his bugeoning adult literature collection, which was funny because he kept them at the decker's place, linked up to the rest of the draco data. Actually I had a short story arch involving a strange cross refrence that came up between the corporate data and the porn.
Posted by: Edward May 15 2006, 09:41 AM
Well all I intended to get out of this was a bit of RP, a compulsion flaw (grab all the data) and give the GM an additional way to give plot hooks.
Edward
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll May 15 2006, 04:49 PM
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| How much for an unreasonable amount of memory. And a truly ludicrous quantity of data analysis The rules for memory capacity state that any device will store any reasonable amount of information. And that it should be rare that a player should not have enough storage space. I am about to start playing a character called data miner, one of his traits is a desire to collect information so he can cross-reference it and discover patterns, discrepancies and indications of interesting things happening. To this end when in a corporate host he is likely to copy such records as the employ database, the financial database, the inventory database, the security records and anything else of interest. This is not what I would consider a reasonable amount of data so how much would it cost (and how heavy would it be) to have a couple of optical chips that can store an unreasonable amount of data and a computer that can run searches on truly ludicrous quantities of data (cross-referencing data from several hundred corporate divisions) (that doesn’t need to be portable). Edward |
From another angle, once you get a static copy of all your data it would become obsolete quickly unless you spent *a lot* of time constantly updating your sources. Use the Matrix for what it is a constantly changing data source.
Although offline analysis is useful for modeling scenarios, to keep with the feel of 2070 you'd be plugged in to the Matrix more than an offline system.
To answer your actual question, I wouldn't charge for memory costs unless you wanted to start selling the results of your analysis and that would be an entirely different set of questions.
~GTT
Posted by: Edward May 15 2006, 05:01 PM
I am aware of the issues of obsolete data, but much of the data will remain relevant and the data I was going to store on this system would not be assessable to a direct matrix search. This database is primarily for information that is never public domain. And many of its conclusions will be out of date buy the time I get them.
For example. I pull down financial records for various companies, on 14/3/70 I get the Aries arms Seattle inventory history and accounting databases. On 28/9/70 I bet the aztechnolagy Seattle financial records. cross-referencing shows a number of transactions from Aztec to Aries from 19/4/68 to 2/2/69 with no shipping orders. I wonder what thay where up to.
That is the kind of useless and out of date information I would expect to find.
Once the database reaches critical mass, it will give insight into inter corporate behavior in the past, the amount of useful information found (identifying corporate spies for example) will be small and because the evidence will be old the corporations may well have found and eliminated them before I can blackmail them.
This is not a power play, its something fun.
Edward
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll May 15 2006, 05:47 PM
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| This is not a power play, its something fun. |
I wouldn't sweat the cost then.
Posted by: mfb May 15 2006, 07:01 PM
| QUOTE (Kiedo) |
| not nessicarily, if you had each entry coded, with say a case sensitive 32 digit alpha numeric string, and hard coded into the search software to ignore all entries who's 13th letter is not a capital "R", then unless your hacker decomplied your program, or got hold of the source code there would be no way for him/her to tell what was real and what was not. esecially if the entries for other documents were formatted identically and cross refrenceable |
all he'd have to do is steal a copy of a legitimate user's search program.
Posted by: Kanada Ten May 15 2006, 07:36 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
all he'd have to do is steal a copy of a legitimate user's search program. |
And hope that persona isn't a "troll", as well.
But I agree that an experienced hacker will find ways around it, which is a good thing.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 15 2006, 07:39 PM
If a player wants to cough up 10k and have a device the size of a paperback book in his pocket/backpack, I'd let him hold onto pretty much anything in the "unreasonable" range. Transfer time would become the issue, then.
If you want to get into the "ludicrous" range, I'm going to require something that fits into a large computer tower, or one of those hugeass reinforced Pelican cases.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll May 15 2006, 08:48 PM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| If a player wants to cough up 10k and have a device the size of a paperback book in his pocket/backpack, I'd let him hold onto pretty much anything in the "unreasonable" range. Transfer time would become the issue, then. If you want to get into the "ludicrous" range, I'm going to require something that fits into a large computer tower, or one of those hugeass reinforced Pelican cases. |
Oh-my-God sir, they've gone plaid!!
Posted by: Shrike30 May 15 2006, 10:27 PM
Bwahahahaa!
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