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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Continues matrix icon repair.

Posted by: Edward May 14 2006, 06:16 AM

Continues matrix icon repair.

Page 218 SR4 accessing multiple nodes, when accessing multiple nodes with multiple icons engaging in combat damage applied to one counts for both.

It follows that a medic program applied to one would apply to both. Thus when going on a run where you expect your icon to take damage you also send your icon to a safe place where you load an agent with a medic program that will continually repair your icon.

This is a useful trick analogues to the old have a healing mage with a med kit watch your meat when you’re expecting to face black ice.

Edward

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 06:18 AM

That smacks too much of trying to cheese the system to me.

Posted by: Dranem May 14 2006, 06:28 AM

If you had Medic loaded on your Commlink, then it could repair your over all Persona - but I wouldn't allow an Agent to be able to fix ALL damage to your Icon - only the damage that you receive in the node it's loaded in..

Now I would allow you to transfer the agent from one node to another as an action (probably simple action to call an agent to you, being able to provide the function on your next IP), that would make more sense.

Posted by: The Jopp May 15 2006, 11:19 AM

You know, the more I read about it the more Im convinced it is wholly legit, albeit a bit powergaming. The risk with being in multiple nodes is that you can be attacked by IC and Hackers. IC is a program and so is the Attack program they use. If you can be affected by one type of program in multiple nodes it stands to reason that you would be affected by other kind of programs as well.

If damage can be dealt in multiple nodes then healing would be affecting the icon in multiple nodes as well. So you upload an Agent into your second commlink, access it with your icon and then you go hacking into a corporate node. When damage is taken you have the agent(s) in the second commlink initiating repairs rolling Pilot+Program which would be 8D6 X Agents.

One could rule that you would only be able to repair damage if the agent is in the node you have been attacked in but that would go straight against the rules written for multiple nodes.

Yes, it can be used to the extremes but remember, what you can do the GM can do worse.

Posted by: Serbitar May 15 2006, 12:56 PM

Fix it by just allowing to repair onself.

A persona being able to repair another sounds strange to me anyways.

Posted by: The Jopp May 15 2006, 01:42 PM

QUOTE (Serbitar)

Fix it by just allowing to repair onself.

A persona being able to repair another sounds strange to me anyways.

Well, its not the persona doing the repair, it's an agent repairing the personas icon. That would be like a team mate using first aid on someone. Or a Rigger having a medical robot that can use first aid on the rigger the moment his lifesigns are dropping.

Posted by: Serbitar May 15 2006, 02:18 PM

I know, but we are not talkin about real life persons or things, we are talking about code. And I think a Persona/Agent/IC should only be able to repair itself, not being able to be repaired by others.

Posted by: The Jopp May 15 2006, 02:23 PM

It would not be according to RAW but it stands to reason since it would be too easy to circumvent any kind of matrix damage.

Posted by: Protagonist May 15 2006, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (Serbitar)

That doesn't make any sense.

Everything is just code, repair and many programes manipulate that code. Saying you can't completely undermines what a hacker/technomancer (or even just a programmer) is.

Posted by: Serbitar May 15 2006, 03:36 PM

If you want a fluff answer: You would have to give the other Agent?IC/Persona full admin rights for everything in your persona to allow it to repair your code and it would have to use your processor power to do it, as it has to check your RAM and your HD. AND it fixes an exploit.

Which, in game terms, translates into: You have to run the programme to repair you, no other can run the programme to rapair you.

Posted by: mdynna May 15 2006, 04:32 PM

I think the easier answer is to say that the Medic program must be run from the Node where the damage originated. I don't have a problem with an Agent healing you then, at its vulnerable to attack.

Posted by: Edward May 15 2006, 05:10 PM

QUOTE (mdynna)

I think the easier answer is to say that the Medic program must be run from the Node where the damage originated. I don't have a problem with an Agent healing you then, at its vulnerable to attack.

You’re not the only one to suggest this.

I don’t think it makes sense. The ay the damage works reads almost like its the same icon in multiple places, what affects it in one location affects it in all. Repairing is really the same as damaging just making things right instead of making them wrong.

As to balance this will not make you immune to damage in the matrix, it just makes you highly resistant to one type of matrix damage, for the cost of the runtime for an agent that could alternatively be with you fighting to eliminate the attacking IC/hackers before they damage you in the first place. It provides no defense against black/gray or psychotropic attacks, trace programs or disconnection attempts.

Edward

Posted by: Serbitar May 15 2006, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (Edward @ May 15 2006, 12:10 PM)

As to balance this will not make you immune to damage in the matrix, it just makes you highly resistant to one type of matrix damage, for the cost of the runtime for an agent that could alternatively be with you fighting to eliminate the attacking IC/hackers before they damage you in the first place. It provides no defense against black/gray or psychotropic attacks, trace programs or disconnection attempts.

Edward

Agents are not things. It does not cost you anything to load them up to 5 nodes, access them and let them constantly heal you AND have them with you on your hacking run. There is no "cost" in runtime.
Your post makes me think that you do not understand the concept of that.

This exploit makes matrix damage senseless. If you want that, ok. If not, then house rule it. The rule wasdefinately not designed to be used that way.

Btw: Everybody knows, that matrix damage is only that, matrix damage. The hint about disconnect, trace and psych IC is totally out of place.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 06:13 PM

My response would be that it says damage inflicted to one icon is inflicted to all icons. It doesn't say that healing is also distributed. The one might seem to follow the other, but it doesn't have to.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 15 2006, 07:08 PM

I'm okay with James' reading of the rule.

Posted by: Edward May 16 2006, 04:16 AM

@ Serbitar An agent is a program and needs to be running on a comlink, you can only run a limited number of programs at a given time. Say you have the recourses to run 2 agents and your other programs on your comlink you could have both of them with you fighting or you could leave one some wear safe with your duplicate icon to repair it.

Thus with my trick you have lost an agent working beside you. The maximum number of agents you can have operating is determined buy the number and power of comlinks you poses.

And my point about disconnection, trace and psych ic (as well as killer and blackout) was to indicate that you are not immune to harm in the matrix because you do this, you are only relatively immune to one type of damage you can sustain in the matrix. It provides no protection at all from those other types of attack.

Posted by: Serbitar May 16 2006, 08:15 AM

Negative: You can upload agents to hosts, so that they do not count towards your response. That is what I am talking about. Just go to any friendly host, upload your agent there, stay there, and let it repair you. Do this for a couple of instances (say 5) and then go to you matrix run.

Posted by: Dranem May 16 2006, 08:24 AM

And how is this agent - that you've placed on another node and is only a bookmark in your subscription list, suppose to know when you're persona gets damaged? Agents aren't directly connected to their programmer, they do not have the connection Sprites have with their Technomancer.

If you want to run an agent that directly benefits you, you'd have to be in the node with the agent.

Posted by: Edward May 16 2006, 08:38 AM

I didn’t realize you could cut an agent free like that, makes it a bit more powerful I guess,

As to how the agent will know your damaged, ether buy performing regular analyze icon actions and healing when it detects damage. Or using the somewhat more munchkin tequnike it performs the repair icon action every initiative pass regardless of weather you actually need it or not.

Posted by: Kremlin KOA May 16 2006, 08:40 AM

this should work

the "Same node" arguement means that if you take matrix damage and flee the node you were attacked in YOUR COMLINK CAN NEVER BE REPAIRED, new comm time.

Sadly Hacking is all about finding the right combination of exploits, always has been, always will be.

Posted by: Edward May 16 2006, 08:48 AM

Well hacking in character is about finding exploits, should it not be the same out of character.

[ducks]

Edward

Posted by: Ryu May 16 2006, 09:15 AM

I don´t see the problem here. As long as damage is distributed to all your icons, the remote repair should also be possible. I would like a system where both things don´t happen better, but thats not RAW.

The required 2nd comlink (for running the agent) is also no problem IMO. Think of it as a dual-processor-system.

The real fix would be upgraded options for defending a node by encryption and stealth. Cyber combat should be decided within few turns anyway, a medic program won´t do you good if you where dumped from the site.

Posted by: Serbitar May 16 2006, 09:17 AM

Thats why I say:

Only programmes run by your persona can repair your persona.

Simple fix. Easy, fast, understandable.

@Ryu: There is no requirement for a 2nd comlink.

Posted by: Butterblume May 16 2006, 09:47 AM

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

the "Same node" arguement means that if you take matrix damage and flee the node you were attacked in YOUR COMLINK CAN NEVER BE REPAIRED, new comm time.

Medic doesn't repair commlinks. It repairs icons. (Hm, sloppy rulewriting ... after all, I could just change my icon with an undamaged one using a free action

.)
So medic repairs the programms/data the icon represents.

You can always reboot, so your persona will be undamaged again.

Just mentioning: Repair Icon is an extended test (1 combat turn)...

Posted by: James McMurray May 16 2006, 10:00 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

I would like a system where both things don´t happen better, but thats not RAW.

It's the idea that healing transfers across all icons that isn't RAW. RAW only states that damage taken transfers. People are using that to infer that damage removed also transfers, but the two aren't necessarily linked like that.

Posted by: Edward May 17 2006, 10:34 AM

Hear is a metagame reason why repairing should pass on everywhere damage dose.

SR 4 is supposed to be simple.

If healing dose not affect your icon in all locations then you will need to have separate damage tracks for each icon. But damage dose apply to all so when you take damage you need to apply it to your icon in all locations. Considering you have up to 12 locations this is going to get annoying.

There are also problems such as what happens when your icon is crashed in one of its locations (and probably not the one your fighting in)

Edward

Posted by: Moon-Hawk May 17 2006, 02:30 PM

This is slightly off-topic, and I don't mean to derail, but it could be relevant.
Speaking of personas and their multiple instances, it occurs to me that these multiple instances could possibly be in the same node. Damage is still shared by all, and you can only control one at a time while the others hang idle (or working on some ongoing task like a massive download). So it occurs to me that this is possible, but I can't really think of a single reason to. Can anyone?

Posted by: Aaron May 17 2006, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

Speaking of personas and their multiple instances, it occurs to me that these multiple instances could possibly be in the same node. [...] So it occurs to me that this is possible, but I can't really think of a single reason to. Can anyone?

Style over substance, omae. Style over substance.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 17 2006, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (Edward)

If healing dose not affect your icon in all locations then you will need to have separate damage tracks for each icon. But damage dose apply to all so when you take damage you need to apply it to your icon in all locations. Considering you have up to 12 locations this is going to get annoying.

Actually, that's the most solid arguement I've seen in this topic. While having your medic sitting in another node is a little bizarre (and possibly munchy, but that's really a relative term), the sheer scale of the bizareness and GM-decision-making that arises the moment you decide it does not work that way vastly outdoes the initial oddity. I'm going to let my players (and NPCs) do this.

Posted by: Big D May 17 2006, 08:17 PM

Heck yeah, it's munchy... but I can't see a reason it's not legal.

Hmmm. Could you essentially do the same thing for a TM by strapping on a medkit and leaving it on auto while you deck?

On second thought, a medkit on auto would have a hard time doing anything for a TM, so maybe that won't help.

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 09:15 PM

Simple does not equal good. It's simple to take away opposed tests for firearms and just deal the gun's damage. It's simple to get rid of damage tracks sltogether and just have the GM ecide when you fall over.

Big D: The reason you can't do it is because the rules don't work that way.

It's a good house rule though, for people that want their cybercombats to last forever. Remember, and opposing security hackers will be doing the exact same thing, so unless you an drop someone completely in one attack you'll never be able to fully drop them because fo the various agents with delayed actions ready to fix your icon as soon as you drop.

As it stands now your hacker or security hacker has about 10 damage boxes you have to go through in order to drop them. If each one has 3 agents rolling 9 die each then they are healing on average 9 points of damage each combat phase. I personally wouldn't want to run a 2 hour long cyber combat, although it would never really last that long because you'll have multiple security hackers on the PC hacker. If they're smart they'll track you to your other nodes and go there to attack so you don't even get defense rolls there. Meanwhile the PC hacker is stuck at one action per phase and unable to drop any of the opposition.

On second thought, the Evil GM in me wants it to work this way. (not really, I still wouldn't allow it because of how long and dice-rolley it makes the combats)

Posted by: Butterblume May 17 2006, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

If each one has 3 agents rolling 9 die each then they are healing on average 9 points of damage each combat phase.

Like I mentioned before, Repair Icon is an extended Test with 1 Combat Turn base time.

I would also rule that only one Repair Icon action can be taken on one icon at the same time. I am not sure if i should allow teamwork tests for Agents.

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 10:17 PM

Ah, then the guy just needs to go full defense while they get healed. After all, he doesn't have to stop you, just keep you occupied while more and more reinforcements arrive. It'll still make combat take longer if you allow multiple heals at one time.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 17 2006, 11:07 PM

I think that's the kind of situation that would count as an assist, if you allowed them for Agents.