Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ 3rd Ed Stealth.

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 15 2006, 05:53 PM

My players have high stealth and they can sneak past alot. Besides perception, what other ways do people have of detecting sneaky people? I've used high sensor rating drones against them too. There's probably something obvious I'm not seeing, so I'm asking for help.

Posted by: mfb May 15 2006, 06:35 PM

use security measures. pressure pads can't be snuck past, unless you're an adept with traceless walk. laser tripwires are hard to detect, as are capitance wires and pheremone sniffers.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 07:02 PM

Changing stealth vs. perception to an opposed test with a base target number of 4 might also help. It definitely helps make results more predictable insteadof wondering if the guy with one skill is going to get lucky and be harder to see then the guy with 4 skill.

Posted by: mfb May 15 2006, 07:08 PM

i think, in this situation, that would actually make things worse, though i would normally agree that open tests are the devil. the PCs have high stealth skills, probably higher than most guards' intelligence scores, which means that making the outcome more consistent will make it even harder for the guards to detect the PCs.

Posted by: Backgammon May 15 2006, 07:19 PM

Guards can use their Stealth skill as Complementary dice, so you get a boost right there.

Otherwise, security setups consisting of good lighting, open Zero Zone terrain, electronic surveillance such as thermal or ultrasound, guard animals or guard spirits, etc. All this forces the players to come up with a stealthing scheme more detailed than "we go by here and roll high on our stealth".

Posted by: mfb May 15 2006, 07:31 PM

yeah. try imposing terrain modifiers to the stealth roll--sneaking through hip-high grass is a lot easier than sneaking across a well-lit, empty concrete lot.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 07:43 PM

The Corporate Security Handbook had a lot of good ideas in it. I think I remember seeing it at one of the online stores as a pdf.

Posted by: SL James May 15 2006, 08:52 PM

*cough* SOTA63 *cough*

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 15 2006, 11:01 PM

Alright, I'll quit being lazy and go read. Terrain modifers? Duh. I don't know what I was thinking. Maybe, I wasn't.
SOTA: 2063, I'll go check it out.
Corporate Security Handbook. I'll see if I can hunt it down.
Thanks all.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 16 2006, 12:10 AM

Stealth is really unrealiable. The key is to make the PCs just keep making stealth checks until one of them gets a bad roll. At the same time put a lot of average guards around the compound so that each one gets to roll 3 dice to detect intruders. Even if the PCs have great stealth one of them will screw up eventually and one of the many guards will see him and open fire, alerting everyone.

I really can't believe that there's difficulty with this because stealth has always been simultaneously an important skill but also kind of a universal weak link.

Posted by: Backgammon May 16 2006, 02:03 AM

QUOTE (Rajaat99)

SOTA 2063 has most of what was in the Corp Sec Handbook, so you only need one of the two, really.

Posted by: SL James May 16 2006, 02:12 AM

Plus some neat stuff it didn't have - like rules for hotwiring a maglock (which occasionally can come in hand) and all sorts of other stuff. Not that CSH lacks them - it's just... more well-arranged.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 16 2006, 02:15 AM

Plus, Corporate Security has a lot of material not applicable for SR3.

Posted by: SL James May 16 2006, 02:25 AM

BTW, I really like Extended Missile Parry and wish they kept it in MitS.

Posted by: blakkie May 16 2006, 02:52 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 15 2006, 06:10 PM)

The key is to make the PCs just keep making stealth checks until one of them gets a bad roll.

Any excellent example of how the GM can "munchkin" the system.

Doesn't cherry picking unlimited rerolls feel even remotely like "cheating" to you?

Posted by: James McMurray May 16 2006, 03:12 AM

Nooooo! I agree with blakkie again!!!! Aieeee!

Posted by: mfb May 16 2006, 05:02 AM

while cherry-picking rolls is not a method i would personally use, i don't think it's 'cheating' to make the players roll more often. after all, they're the ones wanting to use the skill so frequently.

Posted by: Sharaloth May 16 2006, 05:08 AM

I agree with Blakkie as well.

As a GM I only make PC's reroll stealth if the situation changes. For instance, if a PC is hiding out ouside a protected compound and uber-rolls a 32 on the stealth test, all the guards in the compound are very unlikely to notice him, so long as he doesn't leave that oh-so-perfect cover he's managed to find. I'm not going to make him roll a new stealth roll for each guard that comes by, that's just stupid and obviously the GM trying to screw over the player. If the PC decides to leave that hiding spot and sneak towards the building, that's a new stealth roll there, and a new possibility for discovery. Once he's inside, he's got to contend with more stuff, and will generally require a new stealth roll every time he crosses into an entirely new section of the building (a new floor, a more secured area, the guard's breakroom, etc).

Posted by: nezumi May 16 2006, 01:20 PM

Thought of trying closed doors? Just set a little beeper so it rings when someone goes in (most stores have those). Also motion detectors, and always apply appropriate modifiers for terrain (make them up if they aren't listed, I don't recollect the list being as complete as I'd like). Walking through an empty parking lot at high noon should probably impose a -8 to the stealth roll. So it's possible, but very, very difficult. Also don't forget to apply modifiers based on the speed the person is moving. A person moving at a crawl will hide better than someone walking at normal speed.

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 16 2006, 04:57 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Nooooo! I agree with blakkie again!!!! Aieeee!

I know how you feel. It's like a heart attack when you agree.
My players have Stealth at 6, 7, and 8, so a guard with intelligence 3 is unlikely to notice them, even with constant rerolls. Plus my players always use Karma.
I'm going to go with terrian modifiers and non-visual forms of detection. Like beeping doors, laser trip wires, and pressure plates. Maybe, even gas chambers, triggered by a laser trip wire.
SLAM!
Ebony, "That door just slammed behind us."
SLAM!
Stain, "And the door in front of us."
Static, "What's that smell?"
All togeather, "Uh-oh."

Posted by: mfb May 16 2006, 06:15 PM

keep in mind that in the SR3 rules, using karma on an open test just gives you one extra die per iteration. eg you get one die for 1 kp, two dice for 3kp, three dice for 6kp, and so on.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 16 2006, 11:17 PM

Well, obviously I don't just sit there and keep telling the PCs to reroll until they get a satisfactorily poor roll. That would just piss everyone off and derail the game.

No, no, no. This is how you do it.

You have a lot of average security guards with Int 3. The PCs are hiding somewhere or sneaking somewhere and they roll between 6 and 8 dice, let's say. They often roll at least ~8 on their stealth test and can also get results of around 15 or so without too much problem.

So, yes, if I just roll 3 dice I'm probably not going to beat 8, 15, or the occasional 20+. But the thing is that each guard gets the chance to notice each PC. So I roll 5 times for the Int 3 guard if there's a hiding party of 5. Furthermore, if there are a lot of guards I roll for each guard. So 10 average guards rolling Int 3 five times to detect a party of 5 would result in my rolling a total of 150 dice.

I don't see how you can construe that as cheating. I think that's actually following the rules pretty literally. And with 150 rolls it dosen't matter if we give the guards +6 TN penalties for cover and concealment or whatever. You're still probably going to get at least one really excellent roll. And, as far as I can tell, I think I'm just following the rules.

Posted by: Taran May 16 2006, 11:47 PM

Heh. I've actually done that, albeit at a slightly smaller scale. But I had a computer with a Lisp interpreter do all the heavy lifting for me.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 16 2006, 11:52 PM

Agreed. Electronic dice rollers help a great deal. I actually mostly used computer programs for rolling as a GM. Using physical dice was rare for me. Personally, I think that since technology is there we should use it to run a better game. An efficient computer program > lots of dice and counting.

Posted by: mfb May 17 2006, 12:01 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

But the thing is that each guard gets the chance to notice each PC.

not in SR3. groups, in SR3, roll the highest Int +1 die per each member of the group.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 17 2006, 12:06 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

But the thing is that each guard gets the chance to notice each PC.

not in SR3. groups, in SR3, roll the highest Int +1 die per each member of the group.

You mean 4, right?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 17 2006, 12:14 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

But the thing is that each guard gets the chance to notice each PC.

not in SR3. groups, in SR3, roll the highest Int +1 die per each member of the group.

I don't ever remember reading anything that said that. Can you give me a BBB page reference? I don't have my sourcebooks with me but I can send an email to some people I know in the US who could then confirm that for me.

Posted by: mfb May 17 2006, 12:25 AM

oops, it's the average +1 per member. SR3 pg 231, 3rd para under Perception. i dunno how it works in SR4.

that said, it's optional. it says "if the GM wants to make one test for the entire team..."[/i] so, actually, WR's roll-lots-of-dice thing is perfectly legit.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 17 2006, 02:47 AM

Yay! I have still caught t3h correct. And I also showed the original poster how he can make high stealth skills alone inadequete.

See, the thing is that for Stealth to be really effective you need a strong Stealth score *and* you usually want to send only one guy because that reduces the number of rolls that the opposition gets to make. It balances out Stealth because while you can potentially do some scouting or possibly snipe out one key NPC you usually are best off sending only one party member which makes the scouting party relatively weak.

Posted by: Dog May 17 2006, 03:24 AM

Glad to see we're talking about how to make the stealth more challenging and interesting, rather than just how to thwart it. Really, I was expecting to see a lot of suggestions to screw the players. Instead, there are some good ideas for making the sneaking part non-routine.

Don't forget to reward the characters for their high stealth too. If they've invested a lot in that skill, they deserve a break now and then.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 17 2006, 03:34 AM

QUOTE (Dog)

Really, I was expecting to see a lot of suggestions to screw the players.

Alas, you wound me!

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 17 2006, 04:37 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

keep in mind that in the SR3 rules, using karma on an open test just gives you one extra die per iteration. eg you get one die for 1 kp, two dice for 3kp, three dice for 6kp, and so on.

Yeah, but with a Karma pool of 40, that doesn't matter a whole lot.
No way I'm rolling 150 dice (I don't use electronic die rollers, for me, as in my opinion, it takes away from the gaming experience). I'm not sure they're as random as real dice. Besides, mice are like my children.
I'll use the average +1 for every member of the group, that seems logical, if not realistic.
I don't screw my players, in fact, sometimes I think I'm too nice. If I wanted to screw them, they'd have died 2 years ago.

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 04:59 AM

WR, it was this comment that made people assume you forced constant rerolling on the players.

QUOTE

The key is to make the PCs just keep making stealth checks until one of them gets a bad roll.

Your example given later doesn't use that method at all. I used a similar method in SR3, but usually only made one roll for each gaurd and then compared it to each runner's stealth check.

In SR4 you use the cooperative tests rules, which means you use the highest perception rating (usually 6). Each other person makes a test, with each hit adding to the primary roller's die pool. So on average 3 sec gaurds with 6 perception dice will end up rolling 10 dice on the final perception test, which should be enough to see at least one character in the group.

Posted by: Dog May 17 2006, 10:33 PM

QUOTE (Rajaat99)

Besides, mice are like my children.

Huh?

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 18 2006, 12:06 AM

QUOTE (Dog)

QUOTE (Rajaat99 @ May 17 2006, 04:37 AM)

Besides, mice are like my children.

Huh?

Mice = My Dice, sorry.

Posted by: Taran May 19 2006, 03:39 AM

QUOTE (Rajaat99)

I'm not sure they're as random as real dice.

If anything, they're more random. But there's something about the rattling sound that my laptop can't quite fake.

Posted by: Laser May 19 2006, 07:24 AM

My group disallows random number generators, on the twin principles of "dice are cool", and "pseudorandom numbers aren't as good as rolling the real thing". Plus we have the usual set of superstitions regarding how to roll better.

Posted by: Rajaat99 May 19 2006, 02:26 PM

QUOTE (Laser)

Ditto. My dice must bounce off my GM screen, otherwise I roll bad.
One of my players only rolls on his character sheet.
Another player rolls so bad, a random generator might help her. Although she loves her sparkly dice.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin May 22 2006, 12:01 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

WR, it was this comment that made people assume you forced constant rerolling on the players.

QUOTE

The key is to make the PCs just keep making stealth checks until one of them gets a bad roll.

Your example given later doesn't use that method at all. I used a similar method in SR3, but usually only made one roll for each gaurd and then compared it to each runner's stealth check.

It's true that my "method" of there being a lot of security guards isn't the same thing as having the PCs reroll stealth a lot.

That being said, I *also* would point out that if the PCs keep using stealth they will eventually get a bad roll. If the whole party tries to hide outside a place, sneak towards it, sneak across it, etc. the odds of at least one party member getting a bad roll also go up.

In other words the example I gave later wasn't necessarily intended of a contradiction of the idea that if the PCs use stealth a lot as a group they will become increasingly likely to fail badly.