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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ pc motivation

Posted by: fool May 15 2006, 08:26 PM

An issue that came up in my last session is what actually motivattes a character of shadowrunner caliber to be a runner. Anyone who is a shadowrunner could have a nice cushy job giving them at minimum middle lifestyle, all above board. A shadowunner could even start with a full legal sin meaning that he wouldn't have to worry about legal complications (in fact the rules mechanics rewards this condition albeit with drawbacks.)
So why would anyone wiht this high of skill level ever bother doing the dirty, dangerous and just downright unpleasant work of shadowrunning?

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 08:30 PM

Disillusionment at the corporate world, possibly spurred by betrayal.
living for the thrill
their wife was killed by a one-armed man and they were framed
shadowrunning may pay as much as a middle lifestyle, but you only work 3 days a month
alcohol or drug abuse makes a job hard to hold on to
Playing with the big guns means giving your loaytaly to someone besides yourself

Posted by: UndeadPoet May 15 2006, 08:38 PM

Loyalty to a person that can't escape the shadows.

Actually, few of my characters have a special motivation for running.
One knows that the only thing he is able to is taking life, and if he is paid for it, nice.
Another one is into the idea of breaking the limits of the human body by throwing himself into challenge after challenge.
Yet another one believes only in himself and his personal freedom and does not want a "real job".

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 15 2006, 09:01 PM

Random Angst Generator #12

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: FanGirl May 15 2006, 09:25 PM

What about simply not having a SIN? You can't get a legal job without one, so it stands to reason that SINless people are forced to take illegal jobs, such as "shadowrunner." In fact, a runner is practically expected to be SINless: having a SIN is officially a Negative Quality in SR4.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 15 2006, 09:34 PM

Well, lots and lots of people don't have a SIN, but the vast majority of them can never develope the skills needed to be elite runners. That said, I think SINless is part of Random Angst #1-9. ;)

Posted by: Backgammon May 15 2006, 10:07 PM

Actually, there are really very few plausible reasons why one would shadowrun. The highest being that you CANNOT hold a normal job. People raised in the ultra violence of the Barrens, or hell simply an abusing home, psychologically damaged so that normal work can't do, a path of violence and risk is all they can know.

Alternatively, people who were ok, and took the legal equivalents of Shadowrunning, such as military, corp sec, etc, but then were forced into the shadows by something that happened.

But in most cases, I think you don't chose to shadowrun. You're forced into it.

Posted by: Teulisch May 15 2006, 10:18 PM

lets consider what it REALLY means to be a runner. It means, your the guy who will say "if you pay me money, i will do illegal and immoral acts for you, putting my own life at risk." you carry illegal weapons and gear, to B&E, kidnap, steal, and murder.

If the above is true, and you have the right usefull skills, then your a shadowrunner. If you lack the skills, then your probably in a gang, or a member of organized crime, or just a petty thug. Shadowrunning is the glamourous high-risk high-pay end of things.

as to the why... a lot of times, a person will not understand the actual risk, compared to the payoff. look how much people spend on the lottery. they see a big $$$, they go for it.

we dont need a 'plausable' reason. we just need to know why character X is doing this instead of something else. maybe he saw the Karl combat mage movie, and decided it was the life for him?

just cause we here on dumpshock have working brains, dosent necesarily mean the characters we play have to.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 15 2006, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (Backgammon)

But in most cases, I think you don't chose to shadowrun. You're forced into it.

Crime pays - and people are greedy.

It's called the shadows because there is no black and white, no real border..
Shady business in the sixth world may start innocent, but in the end, it always comes down to the balance (or the lack thereof) of greed and ethics.

Posted by: FanGirl May 15 2006, 10:52 PM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

Well, lots and lots of people don't have a SIN, but the vast majority of them can never develope the skills needed to be elite runners. That said, I think SINless is part of Random Angst #1-9.

They don't have to be "elite" runners. Why do you think that so many people on these forums go on and on about the importance of a "street level" gaming experience?

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 15 2006, 11:00 PM

QUOTE (FanGirl @ May 15 2006, 05:52 PM)

QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ May 15 2006, 04:34 PM)

Well, lots and lots of people don't have a SIN, but the vast majority of them can never develope the skills needed to be elite runners. That said, I think SINless is part of Random Angst #1-9. ;)

They don't have to be "elite" runners. Why do you think that so many people on these forums go on and on about the importance of a "street level" gaming experience?

It seems to me that the original poster was speaking about elite runners, not street level criminals.

Sure, in 2070 you're very existence without a SIN is a crime, so running drugs and robbery are obvious choices. But that doesn't bring many to shadowrunning caliber.

Posted by: mfb May 15 2006, 11:40 PM

i tend to assume that there's a glut of capable people willing to perform acts of questionable morality for money. i mean, consider how many large-scale conflicts there have been in the SR world--not just wars, but corporate takeovers involving illegal manuevering, entire sections of the countryside being cut off from all infrastructure and being forced to rely on smuggling to get basic commodities, stuff like that. the job market for guys with the skillset to be shadowrunners is going to be wide open--and the nature of the work means that the moment any political heat comes down, you're going to be out on the street, and you probably won't be hireable by any legitimate outfits.

Posted by: Edward May 16 2006, 03:28 AM

Sinless only works for people without highly marketable skills.

And magician of any tradition could work into any megacorp office and get a job with corporate sin provided. You will have to sign a long term contract with vicious non compliance penalties on your end and the corporation chooses your postings. You will only be provided low lifestyle and medical for the 3-6 months of your corporate indoctrination. Corporate indoctrination could mean many things, in aztechnologys case being used as a ritual sacrifice but for most corps nothing worse than being plugged into psychotropic sim sense.

And not having a sin is not a crime. You are a “probationary citizen” with almost no rights and the inability to deal with any government of financial institution.

Posted by: Ork4life May 16 2006, 03:52 AM

The man who said "give me liberty or give me death" is a man who would possibly be a shadowrunner if he lived in 2070.

Really, that quote summarizes why most shadowrunners do what they do (IMO).

I mean, let's say you are a very skilled gunman, mage, rigger, whatever. Here are your options:

-Corporate Work: Your job is probably boring and repative, but safe and comfortable. You don't have to sleep with one eye open and unless you are involved in shady dealings you don't really have to worry about someone betraying you or selling you out. You make good money and your job is perfectly legal. On the down-side, big brother isn't just watching.. he lives with you. You have no privacy at all and the corp owns you.

-Shadowrunning: Your on the wrong side of the law. You have an exciting job, but only if you consider ringing death's doorbell and running "exciting". Like corporate work, you make alot of money, but you can't really live the high life you may want to, because you don't want to draw attention to yourself. One wrong move may be your last, and in all likelihood you'll die violently and unexpectedly. On the bright side, your life is *yours*. No one can tell you who to talk to, what to do, or where to spend your free time. And you have privacy.

To pull an (admittedly extreme) example from my SR game, there was a female Mr. Johnson who we were working for who fell for me after some very lucky seduction checks (Can't really blame her though.. I mean, who can resist an ork?). Long story short; we went on a couple dates, her corp caught wind and didn't like her mingling with the 'hired help', and sent a couple thug "bodyguards" to keep me away. She's a social adept, and would probably be a welcome addition to any shadowrunning team as a face. The moral of this story? If she lived in the shadows she'd make the same kind of money, and might live in constant danger, but she'd be able to live her own life.

So the question is; is life really worth living if all you're doing is following instructions and guidelines like a drone?

If the answer is no, and you've got the skills, then shadowrunning may be for you. If it's yes, well... you might as well start typing up that resume.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid May 16 2006, 05:02 AM

QUOTE (FanGirl)

...This is KK4.1's dilemma. being the human child born to an elven family in Salem TT she ran away from home to Portland - and eventually to Seattle because of all the bigotry she was forced to endure from the other elven kids.

She was officially declared dead when the badly mauled remains of a human girl roughly her age were found in the woods north of Eugene. The genetic test was positive and her death was ruled as an accident (Critter attack).

...Of course dear old dad was a high level genetic research scientist at Willamette U.

(the whole thing is a long involved story - 60+ pages)

This makes her truly SINless

Posted by: mfb May 16 2006, 05:07 AM

QUOTE (Edward)

Sinless only works for people without highly marketable skills.

not true at all. a SIN makes you easier to find, and everyone has enemies. if nothing else, there's the chance that prospective employer might decided to turn a quick buck by handing you over to those enemies.

basically, the SR universe is chock-full of reasons why someone with highly-marketable skills might choose to not take a 'cushy' corporate job. it is your job, as a player, to find one (or two, or ten) for your character. if you make a character and you can't figure out why he runs the shadows instead of getting a SIN and working for a corp, you probably ought to head back to the drawing board.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 16 2006, 05:13 AM

QUOTE

And not having a sin is not a crime. You are a “probationary citizen” with almost no rights and the inability to deal with any government of financial institution.

Not any more. SR4 page 38: "Technically, everyone is supposed to have a SIN (it's illegal not to), but in reality, many people don't."

Basically, they've downgraded the status from probationary status to illgeal alien.

Posted by: Edward May 16 2006, 05:58 AM

Mfb. True, but that isn’t running the shadows because you are sinless, that is running the shadows because you have enemies you need to hide from.

Kanada Ten, bumber.
In SR3 a magician with good ennui social skills (like 3) and enough money for a bribe could actually get a sin without selling out to a corp, and make mid lifestyle easily.

You would walk into the equivalent of the social security office and apply for full citizenship. You would need to prove you will be a worthy member of society and you can do this with a simple business plan, you wish to run your own small business setting security wards for paranoid middleclass workers. Slip the worker a thousand nuyen to grease the wheals and your legally in business for yourself.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 16 2006, 07:10 AM

If you are personally an Insect Magician, Ares will hire you, but only as a deniable asset. They won't take the PR hit for putting you on salary.

-Frank

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 16 2006, 07:13 AM

QUOTE

In SR3 a magician with good ennui social skills (like 3) and enough money for a bribe could actually get a sin without selling out to a corp, and make mid lifestyle easily.

I think that's still possible for many characters. The trick is to apply for refugee status from the Matrix, grease all the wheels from cyberspace, have a few important people sign a petition, and then appear in the immigration office for your hearing - once you've insured it's a go.

And there's lots of nations that would bend over backwards to register highly skilled IT or Magical persons. The UCAS just isn't politically one of them at the moment.

QUOTE

They won't take the PR hit for putting you on salary.

@,@ These are not the Insect Shamans you are looking for.

Posted by: Edward May 16 2006, 07:46 AM

When did the UN declaration of rights of the child get repealed

I was bord at work and it was up on the wall (translated so children could understand it) one of the rights was the right to belong to a country. This would mean a child would hav a rite to a SIN.

Edward

Posted by: Edward May 16 2006, 07:49 AM

Aries has insect shamans on payroll.

See threats 2

Edward

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 16 2006, 08:17 AM

QUOTE (Edward)

I think the question you are looking for is, "When did anyone actually follow the UN declaration of rights?"

Posted by: Ophis May 16 2006, 08:31 AM

QUOTE (Edward)

When did the UN declaration of rights of the child get repealed

When the UN collapsed in the 2030's. No UN no declaration. The UN that is about in SR4 is a rebuild using the old name.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 16 2006, 11:04 PM

QUOTE (Edward)

This would mean a child would hav a rite to a SIN.

When a child is born in an official hospital, a SIN is assigned automatically.
The number of SINless has decreased after the 2nd crash, too... everyone who wanted could get one.

Posted by: cx2 May 17 2006, 07:46 AM

Unless they couldn't get to an office to get a sin.

Sinless with the skills to be runners become runners, similar sinless people who can't get the skills become gangers as far as I can see. Plus not all runners are willing to do wetwork (+1 notoriety for doing it). There's a big difference between burglary and assassination, with the former you only kill in self defence if it goes wrong.

Posted by: Voran May 17 2006, 08:55 AM

I pretty much side with the camp that feels SRs are SRs cause they lack the skills/mindset to be anything other than SRs. Being in a non-SR position for some reason doesn't give you the psychological satisfaction that SR things do. You may be fully aware you've chosen a deadly, difficult path but for whatever reason, it works for you.

Many of the same 'reasons' to explain why there are criminals fit the why there are SRs question too. Environment. You had to take to a life of crime to survive, and you happened to have a knack at it, which allowed you to fall into SR type work. Kinda like Hatchetman's background, piddly ganger, ganger with some cyber, Yak 'runner', down the path to helping out a corp VP chick then that VP eventually pointing a corp Johnson at Hatchet which then got him more or less into the biz. (Paraphrased from that cybertech book where he gets turned into a cyberzombie).

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 May 17 2006, 09:29 AM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

The number of SINless has decreased after the 2nd crash, too... everyone who wanted could get one.

Source? I mean, if that's true , wouldn't that basically invalidate that whole fiction section about all the people who's identities were erased during the crash, that the goverment refused to acknowledge? THey'd just be able to re-register. But instead, they basically pretended that they didn't exist. Did that change somwhere?

Posted by: FanGirl May 17 2006, 01:44 PM

QUOTE

The Crash of ’64 destroyed thousands if not millions of identity records, creating a surge in the SINless population. In response, many governments staged "SIN amnesty programs" and allowed the SINless to (re-)register, no questions asked—which many took advantage of to start new lives. Others, however, preferred that their pasts were gone, and took the opportunity to stay in the shadows. The truth is, many people have valid concerns (and not so rational paranoia) about how SINs are used and how their lives are monitored and tracked by governments and megacorps, and so prefer to stay outside of the system—or at least to use a false ID whenever possible.
It is possible to register with the UCAS government and obtain a SIN, but to do so one must prove that they are a solid, upstanding citizen and that the UCAS has something to gain by admitting them. For most SINless members of the sprawl, this is not a viable option.
The Bible, p. 259

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 05:29 PM

You can still get a job if you're SINless. Thousands of illegal mexican immigrants get jobs every day in Fort Worth TX alone. Some of those are long term under the table jobs while others are day labor.

Posted by: Aaron May 17 2006, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray @ May 17 2006, 12:29 PM)

True, but the pay is drek, if you get paid at all. There are many reports of employers who hire illegals and then turn them in at the end of the project, rather than pay them. Many such workers understand the risk of not getting paid for a day's work.

In the 2070, it'd be even easier to turn them in. You could do it while you were talking to them. All in all, not a good alternative to shadowrunning if you've got the skills.

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 05:35 PM

I didn't say they were great jobs. I just wanted to clarify that not al SINless have to become runners or gangers.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 17 2006, 05:37 PM

QUOTE

It is possible to register with the UCAS government and obtain a SIN, but to do so one must prove that they are a solid, upstanding citizen and that the UCAS has something to gain by admitting them.

This is actually quite funny. If you apply and are denied, they slap you with a criminal SIN - which is worse than SINless in most cases. Or, worse, "We're sorry, but you don't meet our requirements. However, you have been accepted by Absurdastan and granted full citizenship. Please make your way down the hall to their embassy, where I understand a transport is waiting. Don't worry, they only require four years of military service, and I've heard the inflight training sim is really good."

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 05:41 PM

A criminal SIN isn't gauranteed. It's more likely that they'd deport you.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 17 2006, 05:43 PM

Where? Every nation requires a SIN... Plus, deporting you means you were given illegal alien status, so where ever they do send you, you now have a criminal record with the UCAS (essentially a criminal SIN).

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 05:53 PM

Who cares where? You're no longer their problem. Illegal immigrants in America don't necessarily get a criminal record, why would UCAS differ?

Posted by: FanGirl May 17 2006, 07:18 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Yes, but they are not legally holding those jobs. They cannot expect the same rights and protections (such as a consistent salary paid at regular intervals, Social Security, etc.) that legal jobholders can, because their jobs are not protected by U.S. law. That difference is what makes a crappy illegal job much less desirable (from a worker's perspective) than a crappy legal job.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 17 2006, 07:21 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Who cares where? You're no longer their problem. Illegal immigrants in America don't necessarily get a criminal record, why would UCAS differ?

Actually they do. Deported illegal immigrants are processed and filed, photographed, and IIRC fingerprinted in the US. It does matter where you deport them to because the government is paying for the gas... You'd end up with the New York garbage barge situation until Asmando graciously agreed to accept them.

Posted by: James McMurray May 17 2006, 09:01 PM

I stand corrected on the criminal record thing. I should have googled before I typed. So they dump them at the closest border. This isn't a people loving democracy any more (not like we've really got one of those now).

FanGirl: true, but that doesn't mean they have to become a ganger or runner. Tehre are other options, which is all I was trying to say.

Posted by: Nasrudith May 18 2006, 01:01 AM

One motivation for sinners could be they lost their job doing something stupid but not illegal. For example pissing off their boss. They're still on record and thus still a sinner.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 18 2006, 01:13 AM

QUOTE

So they dump them at the closest border. This isn't a people loving democracy any more (not like we've really got one of those now).

That doesn't make sense; none of the neighboring nations is likely to accept a truck of SINless anymore than the UCAS would. You're back to the barge scenario. Most likely, they give you a probationary citizen criminal SIN that has few rights, but allows them to collect taxes and track you. If Lone Star is the one issuing the criminal SIN (say they arrested a group of SINless protestors), then they scan for any crimes they can ring on you before dumping you back in the streets with a brand new RFID tag latched to your intestine. In both cases you're prohibited from entering secure areas.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 01:17 AM

So dump them on a barge and toss them out to sea.

My view on illegal immigration is admittedly very harsh. I live in Texas where illegal immigrants eat up a comparatively large portion of jobs and health care tax dollars. Anything that keeps them out of my state is a good thing IMO.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 18 2006, 01:23 AM

These aren't actual illegal aliens, you <insult>, they're disenfranchised people - they're given illegal status to play to people like you. Children born from families that can't afford health care and those ex-Americans expelled from the NAN who were never allowed to intergrade into a closed society.

If they were worth removing then the Barrens would be empty.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 01:56 AM

If they can prove they were citizens before the crash then great. If not, screw 'em. Did you used to work in weapons design at Ares? Bring in a couple of people who have already proven themselves to work there and have them vouch for you. It isn't foolproof, but if you make the penalty for falsifying the information harsh enough you'll dissuade casual frauds.

If you're a legal citizen, then a chain of data can be traced back to a job, a doctor that remembers you, or something. Just because your SIN got erased doesn't mean that everyone's memories are also gone, so you rely on eyewitness data. Set a number of SINned witnesses that have to sign for you and then make the penalties for fraudulently signing for someone be very harsh.

Give a time limit as well. If you don't get your claim in within 6 months you're screwed unless you were somehow medically unable to get the claim in (probably because you were in a crash induced coma).

Posted by: hyzmarca May 18 2006, 02:33 AM

But it is impossible to prove that you are who you say you are even if you have someone who can vouch for you. You could have killed a real SINer and had some plastic surgery. You could have paid these people. Witnesses mean nothing. Only records matter.

Besides, the point of the SIN was never to differientiate legals from illegals or to track people's movement. Those were just benefits. The original and true point of a SIN is to stratify society so that individuals will have a harder time seeing the government corruption around them.

As for motives, consider that any runner who has become elite knows enough dirt about enough important entities that someone would certainly kill him if he came out of the cold. The best he would hope for is a realitvly safe job as someone's pet secret agent like the members of Assets Inc.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 03:19 AM

QUOTE

You could have killed a real SINer and had some plastic surgery.

Yeah, because the people you hang out with and work with only know your face and voice. They don't have any shared memories you can be questioned about.

QUOTE

You could have paid these people.

That's why I said make the penalties stiff. It won't get rid of all violations but wold make them a lot less common. And of course there's the magical and technological lie detectors that you have to fool.

QUOTE

The original and true point of a SIN is to stratify society so that individuals will have a harder time seeing the government corruption around them.

Got a source for that?

Posted by: FanGirl May 18 2006, 03:37 AM

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 17 2006, 09:33 PM)

But it is impossible to prove that you are who you say you are even if you have someone who can vouce for you. You could have killed a real SINer and had some plastic surgery. You could have paid these people.

Occam's Razor, my friend. If I claim to be, say, Jane Smith of Detroit, Michigan, and I can point to other respectable people who also claim that I am Jane Smith of Detroit, Michigan, and you don't have records of any women matching Jane Smith's description that were recently reported missing or found dead, what would lead you to assume that I killed Jane and stole her identity? If you're like most people, you'll simply accept that I am the person I claim to be and give me a SIN, instead of resorting to bizarre conspiracy theories.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 18 2006, 04:20 AM

Since when has the government been reasonable? Modern representative government is a twisted labyranth of bureaucracy designed by the paranoid with the assumption that everyone is corrupt and any tiny loophole, leeway, or discression will be fully and completely abused.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 04:34 AM

And yet we still allow eye witness testimony in courts of law, despite the chance that you've paid the people off.

Posted by: FanGirl May 18 2006, 04:49 AM

And you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed a crime before you can charge them with it!

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 18 2006, 04:56 AM

QUOTE (FanGirl)

And you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone committed a crime before you can charge them with it!

Only if they have a SIN. SINless don't get full due process, they get a hearing - perhaps a few years after they've been thrown on an island in another country.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 05:27 AM

No, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they did it before you convict them. You can charge them with only a little suspciion, but you might screw yourself if you charge too soon.

One eyewitness can be enough to convict "beyond reasonable doubt," even if the witness is later impeached. http://www.nacdl.org/CHAMPION/ARTICLES/98jan01.htm

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 18 2006, 05:44 AM

Guantanamo Bay.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 05:56 AM

Are you saying that there would be an extraterritorial spot to dump SINless noncitizens or something else altogether? Two words in what looks like it's supposed to be a sentence but doesn't have a verb don't really express your thoughts well.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 18 2006, 06:48 AM

I believe that he is saying that you need to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to be imprisioned for a crime but only a suspicion is necessary for the government to hoold you indefinantly without charges.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 06:54 AM

Ah, but that's (currently) only gfor very specific crimes. With other crimes arresting someone too soon starts the due process clock and means you may have to release them before you've got enough evidence to be able to ask the judge for no bail.

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 18 2006, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (The Bible @ page 259)

It's not uncommon for the SINless to be horribly abused, locked away, or "dissappeared," as they have no rights to speak of and no datatrial to even prove they exist.

Basically, being SINless in SR is an assumed crime. You get a hearing to contest the SINless status if you convince the Lone Star officer you deserve it (or if you went to the UCAS to specifically say that). But their is no real trial with a jury where they need to disprove your citizenship. Most often you are simply issued a criminal SIN and then released if no active crimes match your DNA, fingerprint or face match.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 18 2006, 06:28 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Ah, but that's (currently) only for very specific crimes.

Uh... what crimes would those be? If these folks are being held for very specific crimes, why aren't they being charged with any of those very specific crimes?

Last time I checked, most of the people at Gitmo were being held there (without charges) for being "enemy combatants," which is not a crime, it's a fact of war. They're being treated as POWs. Except, of course, the US doesn't recognize them as specifically belonging to any nation (because they're fighting for a terrorist group, not under a flag), which means that they don't have any advocates, since the US doesn't recognize them as soldiers of whatever nation they have citizenship in... they're terrorists.

So, sitting on a military base without charges being pressed, without the rights of a citizen of this nation or their own, and being held under the auspice of being a prisoner of a war against "terrorism," an abstract concept rather than a concrete nation or border to be secured, meaning that the war can go on indefinitely... yeah, it sounds an awful lot like being SINless is supposed to be, if you end up in jail.

Posted by: James McMurray May 18 2006, 07:19 PM

They're being held on suspicion of crimes. I don't know why they're not being charged. I know what the media tells me is the reason, but since the different news channels can't seem to agree I ignore them all rather than try and guess which one, if any, has the actual truth.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 18 2006, 09:28 PM

Sure, the work of The Ministry of Love would be much easier if The Ministry of Truth would be more efficient.

Posted by: stevebugge May 18 2006, 09:40 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

That's not entirely accurate either. A number are being held because they were captured during military actions on battlefields, mostly in Afghanistan. Some were processed, released, and recaptured on other battlefields. Basically they can't be released because they will rejoin combat, the countries they were born in have disowned them, and the country they were captured in doesn't want to deal with them, and the country that captured them really doesn't have legal jurisdiction over them just an treaty obligation to treat Prisoners of War in a certain fashion.

Being SINless in SR really is the same case except you have it one step worse, officially you don't even exist so there aren't even self proclaimed human rights groups looking for you or looking after your interests. SO if joe SINless Shadowmage gets caught on Renraku Property there is absolutely nothing to even make Renraku worry about making sure he gets three meals a day (like a POW) or even to prevent Renraku from making an attempt to infuse another person a mage by making serum from his tissue or using him as Hellhound chow.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 19 2006, 06:58 AM

QUOTE (stevebugge)

A number are being held because they were captured during military actions on battlefields, mostly in Afghanistan.

And a number is held and tortured because of social network analysis gone wrong...

QUOTE (stevebugge)

Some were processed, released, and recaptured on other battlefields. Basically they can't be released because they will rejoin combat, the countries they were born in have disowned them, and the country they were captured in doesn't want to deal with them, and the country that captured them really doesn't have legal jurisdiction over them just an treaty obligation to treat Prisoners of War in a certain fashion.

..which creates the problem itself, as before, you had someone who didn't care much, and hated with passion afterwards.

QUOTE (stevebugge)

Being SINless in SR really is the same case except you have it one step worse, officially you don't even exist so there aren't even self proclaimed human rights groups looking for you or looking after your interests.

For Human rights, your legal status is irrelevant - that's the idea with human rights.

The problem is, in the sixth world, such voices carry less influence and organizations don't really care about human rights.

QUOTE (stevebugge)

SO if joe SINless Shadowmage gets caught on Renraku Property there is absolutely nothing to even make Renraku worry about making sure he gets three meals a day (like a POW) or even to prevent Renraku from making an attempt to infuse another person a mage by making serum from his tissue or using him as Hellhound chow.

Renraku doesn't even have to worry if it does the same thing to it's own citizens - and will only worry doing it to citizens of other entities because those entities might speak up... not so much for the sake of the citizen itself, though, but mostly because of their image. If it's all nice and covered up... noone will care.

BTW, the code of conduct towards PoW constitutes a bit more than mere subsistence.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 19 2006, 07:59 AM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

For Human rights, your legal status is irrelevant - that's the idea with human rights.

The problem is, in the sixth world, such voices carry less influence and organizations don't really care about human rights.

Human rights only applies to (meta)humans, hence the name. There are plenty of SINless who aren't metahuman and the burden of proof is on the SINless.

If a dog walked into a social security office today and demanded a SSN he wouldn't get very far.

Posted by: Grinder May 19 2006, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

For Human rights, your legal status is irrelevant - that's the idea with human rights.

If you're SINless you don't exist. Someone not existing (for the system) can't demand anything.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 19 2006, 09:36 AM

QUOTE (Grinder)

If you're SINless you don't exist. Someone not existing (for the system) can't demand anything.

People without SIN aren't even classed as stateless, but as citizens on probation.
Even if you are stateless, human rights apply... and as they are citizens, they even got civil rights, though to a lesser extent.

If SINless disappear, it won't (usually) raise questions as it isn't easily noticed, but that doesn't make it legal.
The point is that legality means not much anymore, and having a SIN isn't a real protection, too.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Human rights only applies to (meta)humans, hence the name.

IIRC, that was extended to sentinent beings like sasquatches, too... but for the sake of simplicity, the discussion was about (meta)humans, anyway.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

There are plenty of SINless who aren't metahuman and the burden of proof is on the SINless.

There are very few, in fact, and the idea is a reverse.
Thus, the burden of proof lies for the one that wants to deny such rights...

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

If a dog walked into a social security office today and demanded a SSN he wouldn't get very far.

That would be a civil right...

Posted by: Shrike30 May 19 2006, 06:06 PM

Last I checked, dogs weren't considered part of civil society... how can they have civil rights?

Posted by: James McMurray May 19 2006, 06:15 PM

They supposedly have "animal rights," which differ depending on who you talk to.

Posted by: Shrike30 May 19 2006, 06:32 PM

I want to meet someone who feels dogs should get SSNs.

I'm all for it as long as the dogs are willing to pay into social security

Posted by: James McMurray May 19 2006, 06:36 PM

I'm sure they would if they had paying jobs. More likely it'd just be another drain on the coffers by a jobless group of citizens.

Posted by: fool May 19 2006, 07:02 PM

I don't think my dog should have an ssn, but I think she's certainly smarter and more valuable than the vast majority of people.
She's less of a drain on society than the rich people sucking money out of the treasury and labor out of the poor.
In case you can't figure it out, in SR terms I'd be in the ABC camp

Posted by: James McMurray May 19 2006, 07:17 PM

Already Been Chewed? Ewww and ouch

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 19 2006, 07:34 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

Last I checked, dogs weren't considered part of civil society... how can they have civil rights?

Good question... that pops up every time as soon as some eccentric millionaire bequeaths his entire fortune to his loyal pets.

Posted by: fool May 19 2006, 09:32 PM

Anarchist Black Cross, sorry I shoulda used the plus sign like they do in LA (loose alliances not Los Angeles.) I try to keep my references within game.
When yuou're rich, often your animal friends are usually more loyal (and often smarter) than your your human ones.
In SR terms though, sentience does not gaurantee an offer of a sin, it just means that they might consider you. It took an act of congress before the UCAS granted Dunky a sin. And there are very many creatures with sentinence that many nations would never consider granting sins- ghouls, vampires, naga, merrow, shapeshifters (granted the write up on the last two hasn't been printed yet.)

Posted by: Kanada Ten May 19 2006, 09:47 PM

As an aside, vampires in Germany legal entities requiring only a permit and a voluntary donation source. Obviously they are forbidden from making more vampires. Also, ghouls can have SINs - your ID is not revoked for becoming infected, and there was at one time a discussion about third generation ghouls and their ability to appear fully human with only a small amount of cosmetic accouterments..

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig May 19 2006, 09:55 PM

IIRC, infection with HMVV is subject to registration, too.

Posted by: fool May 19 2006, 09:59 PM

yeah I got this disease that makes me have to eat metahuman flesh. I'm gonna go tright down to the local authorities and tell em all about it ..... tommorrow.

Posted by: kigmatzomat May 19 2006, 10:10 PM

Back to the original question about how SINless can be competent runners:

First off, SR4 runners aren't nearly the experts they were in earlier editions. Oh, they are quite competent but only the hyperspecialized are at the top of their game. A lot of these characters have skill levels I wouldn't be surprised to see on particularly bright college students.

Second, I don't think people realize how much can be learned when you are a) motivated by the need to eat/survive, b) aren't restricted to the pace of formal learning and c) have access to an internet chock full of data and VR training from birth. One exception individual I know was a high level unix admin, a nationally ranked fencer, and an excellent shot with rifle and pistol at age 20. His major in college? Poetry. (He never finished his degree, btw)

His dad was quite the paranoid schizo when he went off his meds (hence a significant arsenal of weapons and my friend's skill with them). Had the world been rougher and the paranoia more justifiable (and less obviously insanity) I could see my friend in the SINless shadows.

Home life and mental illness can both promote a life in the shadows.

So can plausible deniability. Think Dirty Harry and the wide range of "good cops gone vigilante" out to uphold the spirit of the law while breaking the letter one leg at a time.

Awakening is another good justification. "Hey, cool! I can do magic! Watch me levitate a pencil!" "Get out of my mind, Benejezerit witch!" Mages and Technomancers both have the risk of being dissected by the corps or forced into a new "career" not of their choosing. If you are forced to a life of violence, do you want it to be on your terms or those set by the VP of Expedient Affairs?

Going SINless is a kind of renegade "witness protection" service as well. Bad guys of all ilk can use the SIN system to locate you. Getting away from an abusive spouse or a particularly vindictive bureaucrat can be worth dropping off the edge of the world.

Then you've got the people who were skirting the shadows when the Crash2 happened. One of my characters was a DEA trainee who was kidnapped the day before the Crash. The agency basically forgot he existed in chaos and he had to take the "long way" home. Once he got there....he decided he wasn't ready to go back. PTSD, y'know. Happens when you're tortured, walk across a desert and spend 8 months at sea on a tramp steamer.