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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Technomancer Rigger confusion
Posted by: mrcatman May 18 2006, 05:20 AM
Our group keeps reading the sections on vehicles, drones, rigging, gear and technomancer, and we're still confused. This might have been covered, but I couldn't find it.
We're trying to figure out how a TM might be "present" with the team in the field, be able to participate in combat somehow, yet remain as safe as possible. His physical attributes are average or low, and he's concerned he'll be taken out with a single shot from people with bad aim.
The idea he came up with, was to keep his meat body elsewhere (perhaps in a car a few buildings away), while he "jumped in" to a non-combat micro bug drone. He would try to be sneaky, and hopefully never have that drone be a target, thus avoiding damage & dumpshock. Then, he could compile a machine sprite, and have it control a combat drone to do the fighting & take the damage. Would the sprite's pilot rating come into play here? Would the sprite be able to use its targeting autosoft complex form to fire a drone's mounted LMG?
Finally, a third non-combat drone (fly-spy, or perhaps a few of them) would be floating around at key points keeping an eye on things, and relaying it to the TM if necessary (spot an incoming ambush coming in the back door and such).
Is this even doable?
We're trying to figure out what skills the TM would need. If the TM is jumped-in to the micro bug drone most of the time, and wants to be stealthy, it seems he needs Infiltration (vehicle specialization) himself. And while he is jumped-in and sneaking around, he rolls his own Agil + Infil. Correct?
Does the TM also need Pilot Anthro to make sure he can navigate with the bug, or is it assumed that since he and the drone are "one" when he jumps in, that he can move around without tests? After all, one doesn't need a skill to simply walk. If he is truly meshed with the drone, it seems like movement would be natural.
For a moment when reading the rules, it seemed like the TM could get away without having any pilot skills, and just jump-in or let his sprites pilot.
And the biggest question of all... does the TM even need to do all this? It seems like he doesn't need to jump into anything at all, and his various drones (and data feeds from his teammate's contacts/cybereyes&ears) could let him interact with what they are doing. Then he could simply issue remote commands to his drones and/or sprites hoping in drones.
And what impact does his persona's signal have? If everything is wireless, and his brain is always connected, couldn't he be across the world doing all this? Or must he be within his persona's signal range to issue comands to drones & make spritis do things without it being a remote service?
He also wants to be able to use negotiation, leadership & other interactive skills with NPCs. He is concerned that it will be harder to do if his meat body is elsewhere, and he is doing it remotely. And how would he do that anyway? I figured this world was use to that kind of remote communcation, and it was not as "cold" as we view emails vs. in-person stuff today. Dunno.
Sorry for the rambling. We're just eager to understand. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
Posted by: FanGirl May 18 2006, 05:23 AM
Drones are pretty confusing to me as well, but I know this much: Command is your friend.
Posted by: Serbitar May 18 2006, 09:08 AM
| QUOTE |
The idea he came up with, was to keep his meat body elsewhere (perhaps in a car a few buildings away), while he "jumped in" to a non-combat micro bug drone. |
Perfectly acceptable. But be sure that there is always a full two way connection between Technomancer and drone (signal wise). You can use nearby matrix access points (which should be everywhere) to relay your signal, but in a corp security area, those might noght be open for everyone.
| QUOTE |
He would try to be sneaky, and hopefully never have that drone be a target, thus avoiding damage & dumpshock. Then, he could compile a machine sprite, and have it control a combat drone to do the fighting & take the damage. Would the sprite's pilot rating come into play here? |
Yes, when the sprites pilot rating is higher than the drones, you can use the sprites rating instead, as it would be "jumped in" into the drone. But you could do it without a sprite. The sprite just makes the drone better.
| QUOTE |
Would the sprite be able to use its targeting autosoft complex form to fire a drone's mounted LMG? |
Yes, thats what it is for.
| QUOTE |
Finally, a third non-combat drone (fly-spy, or perhaps a few of them) would be floating around at key points keeping an eye on things, and relaying it to the TM if necessary (spot an incoming ambush coming in the back door and such). Is this even doable? |
Sure, no problem.
| QUOTE |
We're trying to figure out what skills the TM would need. If the TM is jumped-in to the micro bug drone most of the time, and wants to be stealthy, it seems he needs Infiltration (vehicle specialization) himself. And while he is jumped-in and sneaking around, he rolls his own Agil + Infil. Correct? |
Per RAW, maybe. I would use Intuition for every vehicle test, as it has nothing to do with your meat body.
A better option (and perheps the right choice of skills) would be to use the Vehicle skill (Pilot Anthroform, Infiltration specialization) with Reaction (or with Intuition as a house rule, as there is no meat body involved).
| QUOTE |
Does the TM also need Pilot Anthro to make sure he can navigate with the bug, or is it assumed that since he and the drone are "one" when he jumps in, that he can move around without tests? After all, one doesn't need a skill to simply walk. If he is truly meshed with the drone, it seems like movement would be natural. |
You do not need a skill for simply driving, or walking, arround. But it comes in handy for those "climbing up the wall" tests.
| QUOTE |
For a moment when reading the rules, it seemed to like the TM could get away without having any pilot skills, and just jump-in or let his sprites pilot. |
Sure, you do not need a skill to drive a car, either. But when "something" more challenging happens, you are toast without a skill.
| QUOTE |
And the biggest question of all... does the TM even need to do all this? It seems like he doesn't need to jump into anything at all, and his various drones (and data feeds from his teammate's contacts/cybereyes&ears) could let him interact with what they are doing. Then he could simply issue remote commands to his drones and/or sprites hoping in drones. |
Sure, he then has to rely on the Pilot rating of his drones. (And they cannat use edge, either)
| QUOTE |
And what impact does his persona's signal have? If everything is wireless, and his brain is always connected, couldn't he be across the world doing all this? |
He can, you just need a wireless access point somewhere arround the TM and arround the drone. Which should almost allways be the case, except in very low tech reagions. There, you will have to rely on your signal ratings.
| QUOTE |
Or must he be within his persona's signal range to issue comands to drones & make spritis do things without it being a remote service? |
Only if there are no matrix relays.
| QUOTE |
He also wants to be able to use negotiation, leadership & other interactive skills with NPCs. He is concerned that it will be harder to do if his meat body is elsewhere, and he is doing it remotely. And how would he do that anyway? I figured this world was use to that kind of remote communcation, and it was not as "cold" as we view emails vs. in-person stuff today. Dunno. |
Depending on the "kind" of connection (vidlink, voice only, text only) I would take away some dice from the fest, as a GM.
Posted by: Serbitar May 18 2006, 09:14 AM
| QUOTE (FanGirl @ May 18 2006, 12:23 AM) |
| Drones are pretty confusing to me as well, but I know this much: Command is your friend. |
The command programme has 2 uses:
1st: You MUST have it running if you want to command drones, that are subscribed to you. (And I see no reason why you shouldnt have to have it on to command agents, that are on remote service)
2nd: To give orders to a drone that you have just hacked into, with an account that does not have the appropriate rights to give commands. (Hacking+Command vs Firewall+System)
I think my next example in "hacking my way" will deal with hacking into drone networks.
Posted by: mdynna May 18 2006, 02:59 PM
Keep in mind that your TM cannot directly "jump into" a drone without a Vehicle Control Rig implanted.
Posted by: mrcatman May 18 2006, 03:56 PM
| QUOTE (mdynna @ May 18 2006, 09:59 AM) |
| Keep in mind that your TM cannot directly "jump into" a drone without a Vehicle Control Rig implanted. |
Is that really true? Where does it say that?
All I saw was pg.239... Riggers may also take a Complex Action and "jump into" a drone via full-VR. Doesn't say anything about vehical control rig. And pg.331 description of control rig said it merely provided you extra dice pool when you were jumped in. It didn't say anything about requiring the rig to jump into the vehicle in the first place.
I assumed since TM uses his brain to go full-VR, he didn't need the rig.
Posted by: Serbitar May 18 2006, 03:57 PM
| QUOTE (mdynna @ May 18 2006, 09:59 AM) |
| Keep in mind that your TM cannot directly "jump into" a drone without a Vehicle Control Rig implanted. |
he can. you do not need a Control rig to jump into a vehicle, you need only full VR.
Posted by: mrcatman May 18 2006, 04:07 PM
Serbitar - thank you SO much for taking all that time to provide all those answers. It is extremely helpful. Quick follow up questions, if that is ok.
Assuming the TM's Resonance was a 6, it seems like his persona's signal is a 3, making his signal range 400 m. If a TM was in a corp security zone where matrix access points were not open, the TM could no longer communicate with his sprites/drones beyond the 400 m without hacking or something?
If the TM wanted to jump into a fly-spy, would he be using Pilot Aircraft for those tests now?
If the TM wanted to jump into a doberman and actually fight, would he be using Intuition + Gunnery to fire (per your house rule of not using his meat body's Agil for infiltration)?
Posted by: mdynna May 18 2006, 06:01 PM
| QUOTE (Serbitar) | ||
he can. you do not need a Control rig to jump into a vehicle, you need only full VR. |
Well this all runs smack into the huge hole that is Riggers in SR4. Here's the entry for Vehicle Control Rig:
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 331) |
| Control Rig: This implant harnesses the raw data-coordinating and synchronization power of the middle brain for the express purpose of directly manipulating rigged vehicles/ drones. The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix. |
Now, here's another important piece of text:
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 239) |
| Jumping Into Drones Riggers may also take a Complex Action and “jump into” a drone via full-VR. In this case, the rigger essentially “becomes” the drone, perceiving through its sensors and operating it as if it were his own body... |
| QUOTE (SR4 pg. 341) |
| Rigger Adaptation: When added to a vehicle, this “black box” allows a character with a control rig (see p. 331) to rig the vehicle (see Rigging and Drones, p. 238), either through a direct fiberoptic cable or wireless link. |
So, a direct reading of the rules seems to say that anyone capable of Full-VR can "jump into" a vehicle. However, with the addition of a Vehcile Control Rig and Rigger Adaptation to the vehicle, you get an extra 2 dice. Personally, I don't like these rules. I would rather go back to the "spirit" of the original Rigging rules and say that a only Vehcile Control Rig equipped character with a "Rigged" (rigger adapted) Vehicle can be "jumped into."
Posted by: kigmatzomat May 18 2006, 06:12 PM
A smart TM-rigger will get a Comm with a high signal rating to use as a range extender and as an external firewall, possibly with an Agent or Sprite loaded to provide some cover if the TM needs to flee the net.
The skill to drive a fly is........hmmm. Yes, it probably would be Pilot Aircraft.
I expect the Pilot:Anthroform will get remade into "pilot:biomorphic drone" which will have specializations like biped, winged, quadruped, hexapod, etc.
Posted by: Jaid May 18 2006, 10:07 PM
two words to solve all your signal-based problems: sattelite link.
500 
for absurdly long range communication, and it's certainly cheap enough you can afford to drop it onto two or three drones. if you are feeling exceptionally cheap though, you can just carry one on the technomancer's person, and install one into one "command drone" and that should be long enough range for just about any need you may have.
Posted by: Serbitar May 18 2006, 10:31 PM
| QUOTE (mrcatman @ May 18 2006, 11:07 AM) |
| Serbitar - thank you SO much for taking all that time to provide all those answers. It is extremely helpful. Quick follow up questions, if that is ok. |
Sure, anytime.
| QUOTE |
Assuming the TM's Resonance was a 6, it seems like his persona's signal is a 3, making his signal range 400 m. If a TM was in a corp security zone where matrix access points were not open, the TM could no longer communicate with his sprites/drones beyond the 400 m without hacking or something? |
Yes.
| QUOTE |
If the TM wanted to jump into a fly-spy, would he be using Pilot Aircraft for those tests now? |
Yes.
| QUOTE |
If the TM wanted to jump into a doberman and actually fight, would he be using Intuition + Gunnery to fire (per your house rule of not using his meat body's Agil for infiltration)? |
Per RAW he would use Agility+Gunnery. But as he is in full VR and jumped in, where meat body stats are meaningless, I would use Intuition+Gunnery as a house rule.
Posted by: Shrike30 May 19 2006, 12:05 AM
My houserule was to allow players to choose between either the standard Stat + Skill combo, or to replace the stat with the "corresponding" mental stat. Keeps everyone happy.
Posted by: CrimsonHawk May 19 2006, 03:11 AM
Ok heres a twist how would a normal drone rigger stop a TM from taking over his drone? if I was dived in for instance and the TM droped a lvl 10 sprite on me?
I had a TM take over my rig kicked me out (dumpshocked) and he sent his sprite down the line to makesure of the job
Posted by: Jaid May 19 2006, 03:26 AM
when a TM drops a rating 10 sprite on you, there is only one solution: nuke whatever he dropped it into, and disconnect everything else from the matrix.
you can't do squat against a rating 10 sprite really, so don't even try. just pack your bags and go home. this is the (theoretical) advantage of technomancers... eventually they can just get downright scary, if you dump enough karma into them (and by enough karma i mean a whole heck of a lot).
of course, that being said... what kind of sprite kicked you out? it shouldn't be able to get in without exploit (crack sprite) and shouldn't be able to control the device without command (machine sprite) if i'm not mistaken. unless, i suppose, you allow all sprites to rig (they just wouldn't have appropriate skills i guess). in any event, even if you allow the sprite to control the drone, it couldn't do much more than move around... without proper autosofts, it can't shoot.
Posted by: CrimsonHawk May 19 2006, 03:49 AM
some sprites do get autosofts I found out but he has a crack come in and give me an enema while he took control of the drone since I got knockedout and a sprite came down the line found out where I was doing biz and made sure I didn't wake up again..
now we have a TM in our group and I see him running around with 8's and 9's all the time I even saw him summon a level 19 crack sprite ( nick named the HULK) it loved taking out firewalls in a blink of an eye.. it did nearly kill him summoning it but man I have a serous inferiority complex with those things now ( I technically died but the GM said there was a mage next door hearing my death scream came over to see what he could do (GM kindness no to kill the players off to fast))
Posted by: Aaron May 19 2006, 04:05 AM
| QUOTE (CrimsonHawk) |
| now we have a TM in our group and I see him running around with 8's and 9's all the time I even saw him summon a level 19 crack sprite |
You guys already have a TM with a Resonance of 10? Geez, and I thought a game a week was fast ...
Posted by: Edward May 19 2006, 12:00 PM
We have seen a hacker do something similar, being a rigger hacker he jumps in and out of drones more than a technomanser would but the key to presence was to keep a copy of his icon in team members comlinks (using the being in multiple places at once rules). He could talk to us ether collectively or individually using our pan linked ear buds, and see threw our vision enhancements, and was able to use our comlinks to piggy back his signal to access any locks or other security devises that needed to be hacked.
Edward
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