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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ The Colloton Connection
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 1 2006, 08:23 AM
I keep reading on these forums that General Angela Colloton is a member of the New Revolution group; re-reading System Failure, I found nodirect reference for that, except for her using the same Jefferson quote ("tree of liberty") as the New Revolution operatives holding Haeffner.
So, I'd like to see any cannon reference to her involvement with the New Revolution.
In addition, did any sourcebook have any picture of her?
Posted by: Ophis Jun 1 2006, 10:37 AM
She may not be a Revolution memeber but she did order the death of the president, that could be taken as a a bit dodgy...
The "Tree of Liberty" quote used implies certain amount of removal of deadwood... maybe from the Revolution, I think there is a something in the fiction that implies she's an agent of the Rev.
Posted by: SL James Jun 1 2006, 11:00 AM
Jesus. Just kill me already.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 1 2006, 11:27 AM
It is as obvious that Colloton ordered Haeffner's death as it is obvious that Lyndon B. Johnson ordered Kenedy's death. No sane person would deny either but the actual evidence is lacking.
Posted by: NightHaunter Jun 1 2006, 01:40 PM
Wasn't she also in charge of the Arcology containment and cleanup?
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 1 2006, 01:48 PM
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) |
| Wasn't she also in charge of the Arcology containment and cleanup? |
Yes, she was; check Renraku Arcology: shutdown and System Failure for details.
Posted by: NightHaunter Jun 1 2006, 01:53 PM
Yeah got 'em both, just confirming so I can start to scheme.
Aren't Conspiracy "Theories" great!?
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 2 2006, 07:55 AM
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) |
| Yeah got 'em both, just confirming so I can start to scheme. Aren't Conspiracy "Theories" great!? |
Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Posted by: -X- Jun 3 2006, 12:24 AM
I was never quite clear who exactly it was who foiled the New Revolution coup but still killed the prez. A splinter of the New Revolution or someone else entirely?
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 3 2006, 07:29 AM
Colloton is the prime suspect; she has the motive (creating a power-vacuum for her to fill), she has the means (high rank in the UCAS army so she could get the SpecForce unit to kill Haeffner) and she has a solid alibi to cover her ass (she was speaking to the nation at that time, so eitherthe transmission was recorded or she could just get a collaborator to give the order). Murdering Haeffner doesn't automatically link her to the New Revolution; she could work for any other group (Alamos 20,000? Ares? Bugs? Who knows?) or just for herself (seeking personal power).
What I was looking for is a reference of her linked to the New revolution or any other group.
Posted by: SL James Jun 3 2006, 09:22 AM
Ask JongWK. He wrote The Tree of Liberty, and said as much.
There are... some discussions about this in the archive if you do a search for Colloton and Jong, or... me.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 3 2006, 10:33 AM
Oh, and by the way, SL James, http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9743&hl= is a great piece of fiction!
Posted by: SL James Jun 3 2006, 11:55 AM
Every good story needs a sympathetic villian, and every major investigation needs one star witness. Given the sheer number of connections my PC had to the various interests pre-SF, going back and tying them together to make her the coup's Ollie North was, well, inevitable.
At least, I assume that's what you're talking about.
Posted by: NightHaunter Jun 3 2006, 02:30 PM
| QUOTE (Omer Joel) | ||
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? |
I think I'm thinking what I think, I think you're thinking!
Posted by: mfb Jun 3 2006, 09:05 PM
| QUOTE (X) |
| I was never quite clear who exactly it was who foiled the New Revolution coup but still killed the prez. A splinter of the New Revolution or someone else entirely? |
the NR coup was not foiled. it went off almost exactly as it was planned. the NR didn't have the firepower to maintain a military hold on the UCAS, much less the CAS and the various NANs. so the upper echelons of the NR pulled the wool over everyone's eyes, including the rest of the NR. they set up a massive boogey man to scare everyone into thinking a military faction was taking over the US--and then the real NR pulled a countercoup in the name of the UCAS.
edit: for future reference, -X- is impossible to quote. his name gives the system fits when you try to use it as the author of a quote.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 3 2006, 09:46 PM
you cant put the name in double-quotes?
| QUOTE ("-X-") |
| testing testing |
hrmf, didnt turn out as expected...
Posted by: -X- Jun 4 2006, 12:40 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
the NR coup was not foiled. it went off almost exactly as it was planned. the NR didn't have the firepower to maintain a military hold on the UCAS, much less the CAS and the various NANs. so the upper echelons of the NR pulled the wool over everyone's eyes, including the rest of the NR. they set up a massive boogey man to scare everyone into thinking a military faction was taking over the US--and then the real NR pulled a countercoup in the name of the UCAS. edit: for future reference, -X- is impossible to quote. his name gives the system fits when you try to use it as the author of a quote. |
So the tippy top of the NR doesn't care about reuniting the old US? Or rather that isn't their point in existing. They created the NR just to gather enough support to take out the existing UCAS government and then take over?
As for the name..., well I would have just been plain 'X' but the system didn't allow it, hence the additional '-'s to get the nick up to three characters without being XXX or something. Not sure what I can do about it now but it is certainly lame that I can't be quoted easily.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 4 2006, 01:01 AM
more that the forum code for some reason does not support "'s around the nick. alltho i think it uses it for timestamps...
Posted by: -X- Jun 4 2006, 01:10 AM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| more that the forum code for some reason does not support "'s around the nick. alltho i think it uses it for timestamps... |
I meant just
X
but the forum rules called for at least three characters. So the dashes are just filler really.
Posted by: SL James Jun 4 2006, 02:30 AM
Eff.
Posted by: mfb Jun 4 2006, 03:34 AM
| QUOTE (X) |
| So the tippy top of the NR doesn't care about reuniting the old US? Or rather that isn't their point in existing. They created the NR just to gather enough support to take out the existing UCAS government and then take over? |
they simply knew there'd be no way to reunite the old US through military might. trying to put together an army and smashing all the other nations until they submit would grind the entire continent to dust--civil war is not, generally speaking, an event that makes a nation stronger. note that there were revolutions and upheavals in Tsimshian and the Tir. the Tsimshian revolt is especially interesting: just like in the UCAS, revolutionaries rose up, took over the offices of the nation's governments, and then were taken down a short time later--but not before the head of state (and god knows how many others in the power structure) were killed. i'm willing to bet that similar events occured all over North America.
this isn't the culmination of the NR's plan, it's just the first step. they got their people into power in at least two nations, possibly three (who the hell knows who's on whose payroll in the Tir?), possibly more.
Posted by: warrior_allanon Jun 4 2006, 04:10 AM
| QUOTE (NightHaunter) | ||||
I think I'm thinking what I think, I think you're thinking! |
i know what your both thinking and no we cannot turn this into a drop bear thread, and no the drop bear army is not ready to strike that deep into a seat of government.
Posted by: SL James Jun 4 2006, 04:23 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
they simply knew there'd be no way to reunite the old US through military might. trying to put together an army and smashing all the other nations until they submit would grind the entire continent to dust--civil war is not, generally speaking, an event that makes a nation stronger. note that there were revolutions and upheavals in Tsimshian and the Tir. |
*ahem*
Ute. Look what happened to them. They're now a part of the third-largest country in non-Aztlan North America, which probably has a considerable amount of influence over the rest of the CFS.
Also, according to Missions 02-003(?) ("The Grab," whichever that is) there was a concerted campaign mounted by UCAS Special Forces and most likely the rest of SOCOM and any intelligence agency paramilitary operatives to assassinate several remaining New Revolution leaders in hiding. In 2068.
I wonder what else happened in 2068.
Posted by: Grinder Jun 4 2006, 09:21 AM
| QUOTE (warrior_allanon) | ||||||
i know what your both thinking and no we cannot turn this into a drop bear thread, and no the drop bear army is not ready to strike that deep into a seat of government. |
If you think so...
Posted by: The ubbergeek Jun 4 2006, 03:14 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
they simply knew there'd be no way to reunite the old US through military might. trying to put together an army and smashing all the other nations until they submit would grind the entire continent to dust--civil war is not, generally speaking, an event that makes a nation stronger. note that there were revolutions and upheavals in Tsimshian and the Tir. the Tsimshian revolt is especially interesting: just like in the UCAS, revolutionaries rose up, took over the offices of the nation's governments, and then were taken down a short time later--but not before the head of state (and god knows how many others in the power structure) were killed. i'm willing to bet that similar events occured all over North America. this isn't the culmination of the NR's plan, it's just the first step. they got their people into power in at least two nations, possibly three (who the hell knows who's on whose payroll in the Tir?), possibly more. |
You know, I really like that idea. It's sinister.
What about the Canada bit? Would they want to take the bits of ex-Canada in it, like Québec, Algokin-Manitou and the Arthabasca?
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 4 2006, 04:33 PM
First they'll take over the UCAS and Tsimshian, then start off a chain of quasi-military procations that will justify a military buildup; and THEN they'll have the forces for an invasion of the NAN.
Also, the new Californian government, with heavy Ares involvement, might also be (partially?) controlled by the NR.
Posted by: SL James Jun 5 2006, 12:33 AM
Ares would be more likely to counteract them than anything else. It hurts the bottom line to lose the revenue from the UCAS-Sioux cold war.
Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Jun 5 2006, 04:09 AM
Wasn't Tsimshian annexed by the Salish Sidhe Council?
Posted by: The ubbergeek Jun 5 2006, 04:37 AM
| QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys) |
| Wasn't Tsimshian annexed by the Salish Sidhe Council? |
Yeah, a sort of protectorate methink.
I wonder if they want to make some sort of Uberanglostaneer...
Posted by: SL James Jun 5 2006, 05:18 AM
Yes, it is a protectorate of the Salish-Shidhe Council.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 5 2006, 07:44 AM
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Ares would be more likely to counteract them than anything else. It hurts the bottom line to lose the revenue from the UCAS-Sioux cold war. |
Yes, but think of the HUGE military buildup that the NR would probably start, especially with an exclusive contract... It'll probably be more profitable than the current UCAS-Sioux Cold war. Wars, after all, are very profitable for the arms industry.
Posted by: SL James Jun 5 2006, 08:01 AM
Well, the problem is that the NR has gone about subverting a lot of the general positions Ares has taken within North America. Aside from that, the intent behind the NR is fundamentally contrary to perpetual war (Though it is quite American) at least within the confines of its own borders. What does Ares have to gain, short of stirring up a war with Aztlan?
Aside from that, the NR was written in the same vein as Winternight. They use corps to their ends, and are not beholden to them. Leaving a corp stooge (and most likely a feeble, easily-manipulated one at that) as the most senior survivor to oversee the executive produced just the kind of backlash against the corps that was needed in order to put a candidate into the White House whose very reputation was built on commanding military forces quite literally fighting against corporate power run amok.
It's been mentioned by someone else, and I didn't feel like mentioning it because I prefer to keep my cards close to my chest - especially since all of this is a major factor in my campaign - but my key players already know about it (one in particular has been my chief sounding board). Long story short, the machinations behind the NR have ties that go back to the Treaty of Denver, and their propaganda is not based on the reality of the United States (especially in those first two decades of the 21st century), but on an ideal which almost transcends reason. Of all the Players who've had the means, motives, and opportunities to further something along as pervasively as the NR was to do what it did, the only Player with the desire and willingness to pursue this dream was Dunkelzahn. And once he was gone, within seven years the wheels had been set in motion to effect major policy actions by the only person who could have continued this legacy, and who, coincidentally enough, fell off the face of the Earth - something which is almost impossible to do in Shadowrun, especially for a person as high-profile as Nadja Daviar.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 5 2006, 08:43 AM
| QUOTE (SL James @ Jun 5 2006, 10:01 AM) |
| Well, the problem is that the NR has gone about subverting a lot of the general positions Ares has taken within North America. Aside from that, the intent behind the NR is fundamentally contrary to perpetual war (Though it is quite American) at least within the confines of its own borders. What does Ares have to gain, short of stirring up a war with Aztlan? Aside from that, the NR was written in the same vein as Winternight. They use corps to their ends, and are not beholden to them. Leaving a corp stooge (and most likely a feeble, easily-manipulated one at that) as the most senior survivor to oversee the executive produced just the kind of backlash against the corps that was needed in order to put a candidate into the White House whose very reputation was built on commanding military forces quite literally fighting against corporate power run amok. |
Remember that while the NR might think of a quick unification, too many factions are going to resist this - forcibly - and their war of unification is going to be quite long, especially against such powers as the Tir, Sioux and Aztlan. Several long years of extreme warfare, not to mention the need for a massive police buildup to keep the NR in power, are going to be VERY profitable, if not to Ares, then to another corp (Saeder-Krupp?). Plus, one central USA government with a cold-war-era mentality is going to be a very good client for Ares - big weapons and a big military are profitable.
And the NR, like many similar nationalistic military dictators in the past (Napoleon, Musolinni, Franco, Peron, Pinocet, the Tsimshian government, Saito), would probably cause some damage to the interests of big money but will, in the big picture, preserve big money in power. And, from a corp prespective, while an NR government is going to be uncomfortable, it'll be a good tool to crush their opposition - especially the more radical Metahuman movements - for them. When the very existance of the Corp system is at risk, some uncomfortability is preferrable (from their POV) than a collapse and/or a real revolution and/or serious reformers. Remember how Saito was profitable for the Japanacorps by keeping the huge Metahuman workforce opressed? Or how the Tsimshian government repressed the large national minorities and crushed any ecological resistance and thus made that state very profitable for MCT investment?
Sure, the NR has people inside Ares, but who says that Ares doesn't have people inside the NR too? Not to mention the way that Ares could utilize the NR to "americanize" foriegn corps right into the "patriotic" hands of Ares.
Posted by: SL James Jun 5 2006, 10:31 AM
Think the end of The Prince, not the beginning.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 5 2006, 11:13 AM
Superpowers do not serve Megacorp interests in the long run. Saito's little fiefdom wasn't a superpower. It was practically impotent..
The problem with reuniting the USA is that doing so would create a military power that is even greater than the Corporate Court. A unified North American state could practically dictate terms to the megacorps and roll over many of them with superior military might.
Posted by: Grinder Jun 5 2006, 11:23 AM
How could the new-founded USA attack SK? Granted, US troops could attack the corps facilities in north america, but anything else? No chance.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 5 2006, 07:15 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 5 2006, 01:13 PM) |
| Superpowers do not serve Megacorp interests in the long run. Saito's little fiefdom wasn't a superpower. It was practically impotent.. |
SR Japan served the Japanacorps until the mid-2060's and probably still serves most of their interests even with its new emperor. Was it impotent?
The military-industrial complex (present in all major industrialized countries) is, after all, the alliance of government with big busineses, aimed at creating a comfortable atmosphere (to say the least) for both government and big business to operate in.
| QUOTE |
| The problem with reuniting the USA is that doing so would create a military power that is even greater than the Corporate Court. A unified North American state could practically dictate terms to the megacorps and roll over many of them with superior military might. |
And there are many ways to dictate a policy to a superpower that dn't involve outgunning it. Economical ways. A narrow ruling junta such as the NR would have troubles countering such ways - it has a very narrow powerbase, and will need alot of economical assistance in order to consolidate its position. Big money and fascists are always on the same side - the Big Money provides the cred, the fascists provide the muscle, and togather they could further each other's interests (i.e. trade-union-crushing and empire-building). So, for the very least, an alliance between the NR and one or more corps is very paulsible.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 5 2006, 08:12 PM
The Military-Industrial Complex is a grand concept but it really doesn't pan out when applied to the Shadowrun economy.
The biggest bsticle is financing. How exactly is this new superpower going to pay for all this military buildup? Corporations usually don't give milti-billion dollar products to people who can't pay for those products. It isn't like they can rely on tax dollars. In the Sixth World the vast majority of income is untaxable due to corporate extraterritoriality.
There is also a matter of exclusivity to consider. Today, if I were a defense contractor and I decides to sell a SOTA jet fighter that I spend billions developing to Iran I would be arrested. This is violates the principal of the free market ut is tollerated because it serves nationalistic military interests. The Megacorps would not stand for such restrictions. War is most profitable if you can arm both sides. Very few countries would invest billions of dollars in weapons tha tthey knew would be used against them eventually.
What really hurts the Megas is the ability of such a superpower to impose continent-wise economic regulations. Sure, such restrictions could hurt the ecenomy of the Superpower but it would also damage the Megas. In the end, the choice between submiting and losing 1/6 of the world market would be a difficult one. Balkanization is far better since it limits the potential reach of any regulations.
In fact, if the NR does succeed it will have to impose realitivly draconian regulations to reign in the megacorps even at the risk of the the new USA's economic stability. It wasn't the NAN that dstroyed the old USA, that was just a symptom. The Shiawase decision was what destroyed the old USA. The only way for the NR to gain any longterm stability would be to reverse the effects of that decision by bringing the Megacorps firmly under government control once again. The ability to regulate and tax commerce is necessary to the survival of any powerfull government.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 5 2006, 08:30 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| What really hurts the Megas is the ability of such a superpower to impose continent-wise economic regulations. Sure, such restrictions could hurt the ecenomy of the Superpower but it would also damage the Megas. In the end, the choice between submiting and losing 1/6 of the world market would be a difficult one. Balkanization is far better since it limits the potential reach of any regulations. |
Historically speaking, the interests of commerce were actually in the unification of small principalities and micro-countries into larger nation-states (Germany and Italy, for example), since more nations means more borders (and thus, more import/export tariffs) when transporting merchandise from point A to point B, more local taxes, more annoying rulers to deal with and more bureaucrats and politicians to bribe.
however, I agree with you that under normal circumstances most corps will not support the NR; but under the chaos of the Crash 2.0 they might especially if they'll fear that other, more radical forces would take over.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 5 2006, 08:49 PM
True historically, but tariffs are rendered moot when your store is its own country.
Due to the Siawase decision whereever Ares chooses to set up shop is part of the nation of Ares and only Ares taxes have to be paid. The same is true for every other Megacorp. The only restrictions are on where the Megacorp can set up shop and what the Megacorp's customers are allowed to possess when they leave.
Ares Weaponsworld could sell nuclear bombs with no waiting period or background check and it would be perfectly legal. The problem is that the second you take your nuclear bomb out of the store you are under the jurisdiction of a country that probably doesn't let you possess nuclear bombs. If Ares did sell nuclear bombs there would be cops sitting outside to arest customers as they leave and that is bad for business. Thus, Megacorps is limited only indirectly by local laws. Their vast economic power allows them to dictate terms to weaker nations, for the most part. It is costly to do so but it is far safer than having a superpower that could potantially stonewall any negoiation attempt. At least, if smaller states don't concede to their demands they have other markets to fall back on. People who can aford nuclear bombs can afford a trip to Switzerland, anyway.
As for fears surrounding the Crash, I always saw Megacorps as being rather megalomanical. I'd think that most would support destabilization when they could potentially take more power as a result and would move in that direction.
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 5 2006, 09:07 PM
Sure there is a way around this. It's called a use tax, the same as a sales tax but applied to the transport of new (that is less than six months from original purchase) in to the jurisdiction. Washington State already has one to keep people from going to Portland Oregon and buying a big ticket item for use in their Washington residence and avoiding the 9% sales tax a retailer in Washington would have to pay. Of course it's very laxly enforced but to a capital starved nation like what the NR would be they could easily apply a use tax. Of course many of the megas probably wouldn't care about a sales tax because they can pass it straight through to their customers.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 6 2006, 07:44 AM
| QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jun 5 2006, 11:07 PM) |
| Sure there is a way around this. It's called a use tax, the same as a sales tax but applied to the transport of new (that is less than six months from original purchase) in to the jurisdiction. Washington State already has one to keep people from going to Portland Oregon and buying a big ticket item for use in their Washington residence and avoiding the 9% sales tax a retailer in Washington would have to pay. Of course it's very laxly enforced but to a capital starved nation like what the NR would be they could easily apply a use tax. Of course many of the megas probably wouldn't care about a sales tax because they can pass it straight through to their customers. |
Yeah, but how would it prevent the corps from simply pulling out part or all of their investments and moving them to more lucrative markets? A tax will work well as long as the corps are around; if they leave, the only way around is mass nationalization, and it just doesn't seem to me to be in the bag of NR, atleast not in this scale.
On the other hand, the corps would be happy to pay such a tax if the NR will be better than the alternative (chaos or a radical revolution).
Generally speaking, why do corps pay taxes to governments IRL? Because the government expands most of it on things that, among other things, benefit the corporations and other big businesses as a whole:
1) Infrastructure (heavily usded by the corps).
2) Law Enforcement (keeps the have-nots out of the haves' way, protects corp property, and usually cheaper than corp-sec and far easier to conceal as the "public good" if they apply excess force)
3) Military (useful to apply pressure on resisting "investment targets" out of country and to prevent foriegn corps from taking the corps' property by force; in times of crisis, it also keeps the masses in line).
4) A very little bit of welfare and healthcare, i.e. "bread and circuses" to stave back a little bit of the masses' dissatisfaction with the system.
5) A legal system (both to referee disputes between corps and to protect their interests in a general way, such as property laws, intellectual property laws and so on).
Better yet, the middle class (if any) pays taxes, too, and far greater percentage of tax per dollar of income than the corps; so the corps get their interests served AND they get the middle-class pay for it, or, better yet, deduce it from their employees' salary (i.e. income tax) without the employees blaming the corp.
In SR, things are a bit different, as corps have extraterritoriality, nearly 100% of anything is privatised, and the middle class is small, but the avarage SR government looks like a "joint resource allocation committee" of the corps in general - they decide which corps get to run each needed utility (firefighting, law enforcement, power generation etc) for the benefit of all the corps. Plus, who will the masses be more loyal to - to, say, Ares Macrotechnology Inc., or to the "democratic" (yeah right, with most politicians in pay of the corps and/or the Mfia and/or the Yakuza) UCAS? People trust nations better than they do corps.
Another advantage of a big of a signle big government Less politicians to bribe to get your interests tended to.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 6 2006, 07:48 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| True historically, but tariffs are rendered moot when your store is its own country. |
Yes, but is the road from your store to your factory on Ares territory? Or that border crossing point between the UCAS and the CAS that your trucks have to pass through?
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 6 2006, 08:24 PM
| QUOTE (Omer Joel) | ||
Yes, but is the road from your store to your factory on Ares territory? Or that border crossing point between the UCAS and the CAS that your trucks have to pass through? |
It is covered in canon that transports have extraterritorality by corporate contract and are immune to laws in a similar manner. See Queen Euphoria and Corporate Shadowfiles. Also note that long haul trucks are a rare form of transportation in canon (Rigger 3).
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 8 2006, 07:42 AM
I've had a second thought.
Which corps would want a big, strong USA? The ones who get trampled by the Megas. That is, the double-A and single-A corps, with no extraterritoriality. A strong USA with a protectionist trade policy and an agressive foriegn policy would make a very comfortable climate for these loacl corps to flourish. The small corps will deal with the economical side of things (just think how profitable it will be to many of them if the government will split Ares the way it did Bell), and will provide the conspiracy with an economical powerbase.
So you could see the NR as a united-front of smaller corps bent on getting their economical life far easier. Plus, several double-As are quite fitting in spirit to this conspiracy (LoneStar and Brakhaven Investments come to mind).
Posted by: SL James Jun 8 2006, 11:13 AM
I'm sure Lone Star would fair quite well in a country which sought to take back total control of its own security and law enforcement.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 8 2006, 06:22 PM
| QUOTE (SL James @ Jun 8 2006, 01:13 PM) |
| I'm sure Lone Star would fair quite well in a country which sought to take back total control of its own security and law enforcement. |
Who says that it will take back control of Law Eenforcement? Remember that LoneStar's predecessors date as far back as the Pinkertons and other law-enforcement and legbreaking agencies for hire that thrived under the big, all-powerful USA superpower. The USA always had alot of rent-a-cops even when the "normal" PDs weren't privatized yet. Plus, the NR might keep the LS contracts as they are an "american" police-corp, they aren't extraterritorial (IIRC; and thus pay taxes). If they play their cards right they could get exclusive security contracts all over the restored nation PLUS get Knight Errant, Eagle Security and Hard Corps off their tail. Or, they might officially "lose" their main law-enforcement contracts but stay the main contractor for privatized prisons and the main supplier of law enforcement equipment in practice, not to mention being the most major player in the private security field and becoming part of the new military-industrial complex.
Being pro-unification doesn't mean being anti-business or even anti-privatization or pro-real-competition; quite to the contrary IMHO. Just anti-foriegn-megacorp and anti-extraterritoriality.
Posted by: Ophis Jun 9 2006, 08:20 AM
IIRC according to the Lonestar source book they are extraterritorial andpushed hard enough to get it that it suggests they really wanted it.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 9 2006, 09:01 AM
| QUOTE (Ophis) |
| IIRC according to the Lonestar source book they are extraterritorial andpushed hard enough to get it that it suggests they really wanted it. |
Thanks for pointing this out.
So anyway, there ARE non-extraterritorial double-A and single-A corps that would benefit from a strong USA with protectionist trade policies and with just the right amount of anti-trust laws to keep the Megas off their backs, yet enough pro-(loacl)-market policies to keep these little corps comfortable. So the NR could end up being a united-front of liliputians banding togather to bind down the megacorp Gullyver.
Posted by: SL James Jun 9 2006, 11:10 AM
hehehe
I will direct you towards Machiavelli's writings concerning mercenaries. When one of the defining characteristics of the state is the monopoly on force, the use of mercenaries for such essential services as law enforcement (And between Lone Star, KE, and others this is about 60% of municipal policing in the UCAS) would be well-cautioned against.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 9 2006, 12:47 PM
AAs are soverign. THey simply lck a seat on the Corporate Court.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 9 2006, 01:51 PM
This leaves us with the Single-As and the non-A corps; wouldn't they benefit from a strong USA with a pronounced protectionist economical policy and with the splitting up of local double-A and triple-A corp assets among the smaller corps (think Bell)?
Posted by: mfb Jun 9 2006, 03:28 PM
some North American single-As might. on the other hand, a nascent USA is unlikely to survive if they put nationalization of AA and AAA assets very high on their to-do list. maybe if they wait until the USA is cohesive and strong, it would work--basically, until it's too late for the support of A corps to matter, one way or the other.
Posted by: Geekkake Jun 9 2006, 03:36 PM
| QUOTE (Omer Joel) |
| This leaves us with the Single-As and the non-A corps; wouldn't they benefit from a strong USA with a pronounced protectionist economical policy and with the splitting up of local double-A and triple-A corp assets among the smaller corps (think Bell)? |
Not necessarily. A-class and even some B-class corporations are still multi-national, they just don't have extraterritoriality. They may not benefit from strong national policy.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 9 2006, 03:56 PM
| QUOTE (Geekkake) |
| A-class and even some B-class corporations are still multi-national, they just don't have extraterritoriality. They may not benefit from strong national policy. |
Multinational, yes, but whith the right amount of influence over the USA government (and if they'll be its economical powerbase, they WILL have significant influence) they could get a government with a foriegn policy that will serve their international interests well... A strong semi-superpower government is a powerful tool, after all.
Remember, something as big and as detached from the masses as the New Revolution needs lots of money to operate even in the conspirational stage - SOMEONE is paying their bills, and no sane corporate will invest in something it will not have a prospect of reaping later profits and/or market advantages from.
Posted by: mfb Jun 9 2006, 04:55 PM
if the NR is looking for financing, pissing off the Corporate Court is probably a bad idea. it also doesn't seem to fit with the NR's MO. their biggest moves, thus far, have been made by other people. the one big move they made turned out to basically be a feint--they sacrificed what i have to believe was the vast majority of their military assets by setting them up to be the bad guys. the defeated, incarcerated bad guys.
inciting some kind of A corp rebellion wouldn't fit very will with their wheels-within-wheels methodology. the NR seems smart enough to understand that any really large conflict--be it national, corporate, criminal, or whatever--will simply destroy what it is they're trying to build.
as for funding... i'm still of the opinion that Dunk started the NR.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 9 2006, 05:07 PM
I don't think that the NR is actually very big. It seems to me that it is just a few nutjobs with plenty of contacts.
It seems the government is paying heir bills for he most part. The New Revolution appears to be comprised mostly of elected and appointed government officials who would have heir own expense accounts. They have little need for facilities, they can use government facilities. They have little need for equipment. They can use government equipment. In the tree Tree of Liberty it is implied that most of their military power comes from UCAS troops who happen to be loyal to someone who is loyal to the cause.
In fact, the NR faction that took the fall for the coup didn't seem to have many resources outside of military loyalities and members purses. If they did have decent backing they wouldn't have chosen such craptastic security measures for the safehouse where they kept Haefner.
Of course, there are other things to consider, as well. Most obvious is the apparent mutal backscratching and infighting between UCAS political factions, various terrorist groups, and other shadow interests. I doubt there is a single politition in the UCAS government who has not, at one time, conspired with criminal elements to advance a political agenda. Alamos 20k has strong ties to both the New Revolution and Humanis. Likewise, Winternight is responsible for most of the work on Crash Day. I do not believe that the timing of the coup was a coincidence. Even if the New Revolution wasn't directly involved in Winternight's plans they certain knew about them in advance. With their government ties they could certainly have paid for terrorist cooperation with intelligence and counterintelligence rather than money.
According to Threats 2 using terrorists like this is one of the NR's MOs.
Edit-
One thing I just noticed points to Colloton's involvment in the New Revolution. She doesn't mention the NR at all during her speach. She doesn't mention a conspiricy to reunite the US. In fact, she lays all the blame on Alamos 20k. She may have had bad intel and she may have been trying to proect the people but it also may be that she wanted the remaining members of the conspiricy to be safe and secure.
Posted by: boskop-albatros Jun 13 2006, 06:46 AM
ok ok I didn't even read much of the posts but if the NR are the bad guys who what to reunite North America What about if they come up Agaist the Good Guys I've thought up who Want to reunite North America?
THE MITILA-ITES!!!!!
AND THEY'VE GOT MAGIC TOO!! AND THEY ACCEPT ALL RACES AND META TYPES!!! (EVEN LESHIES, SASQUATCHES, and even Earthdawn TYPES!!!)
Remember the martyrs DAVID KORESH AND JETBLACK!!!!!!!
THE CORPS SERVE SATAN!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: SL James Jun 13 2006, 07:24 AM
To cut to the chase... Indeed.
There are enough representative factions and loose ties that could fuel an ongoing insurgency/counterinsurgency across the continent for at least a decade or two. But I said that when SF was released. And what did we get instead?
A general misquoting Jefferson.
Pthbbbbbt. No thanks.
Having just seen Domino, I find it amusing that someone actually got it. Because to game the system in DeeCee is to do that same thing the bondsman does in the movie - get sassy black women on your side. They run Washington. The politicians just think they do.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 13 2006, 07:30 AM
Yes, the SR-era equivalents of the ultra-right-wing Militias are definitely linked to the NR - and to Alamos 20,000 too, probably - but they're far more likely to be pawns of the conspiracy rather than its powerbase. Pulling off something such as the cannonical NR requires alot of money - so I'd look towards the kind of small (single-A or less) businessmen with conservative mindsets and a militia-style concept of patriotism.
Ofcourse, if the coup will succeed, the right-wing Militias will be very useful for it as "stormtroops" to trample any opposition.
Posted by: boskop-albatros Jun 13 2006, 07:32 AM
Yo Yo!!!! SL James.
What about my ideas?
post back please....will there ever be a militia-ite pan racial pan meta USAONIAN! MAGICAL!! Revolution to reunite North America
Remember Koresh!! Seventh Day Sabbath! is the key to Heaven!!!
MLK and Daniel Howling COYOTE were Prophets!!!
Posted by: boskop-albatros Jun 13 2006, 07:40 AM
to HELL WITH HUMANIS HUMAN ONLY BIGOTS!!!!!
GOD MADE ALL META TYPES IN HIS OWN IMAGE!!!!!
HUMANIS WITH BE PUT ON RESERVATIONS WITH THE NATZI PW 8ater SCUM and SKULL Fraggin Elitist Liberalist Conservitist Coprporatist Inernationalist Criminal Scum.....
The Libratarianist Revolution Will COME FOR ALL METATYPES FOR THE BENIFIT OF ALL META TYPES
GOD IS THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 13 2006, 07:43 AM
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| There are enough representative factions and loose ties that could fuel an ongoing insurgency/counterinsurgency across the continent for at least a decade or two. But I said that when SF was released. And what did we get instead? |
Exactly. A continent-wide civil war would be an interesting setting to run - just think of all the plots, run possibilities, and player involvement you could have.
Posted by: boskop-albatros Jun 13 2006, 08:12 AM
I know!!!!!!!!!!
SO WHAT HAPPENS IF SOME METIS(CANAIDIAN OR AMERICAN!!) MAGE DECIDES TO HIT ANY ACADEMIC TARGET OF THE ELITE OK!!!!!!
I TAKE SHADOWRUN DEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
REVOLUTION 
Posted by: Witness Jun 13 2006, 08:44 AM
EDIT: nevermind.
Posted by: boskop-albatros Jun 13 2006, 08:55 AM
I won't go any farther then
Please respond carefully
though
I'm gonna catch some george noory though
good night
have a day 1986
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 13 2006, 09:31 AM
| QUOTE (boskop-albatros) |
| I know!!!!!!!!!! SO WHAT HAPPENS IF SOME METIS(CANAIDIAN OR AMERICAN!!) MAGE DECIDES TO HIT ANY ACADEMIC TARGET OF THE ELITE OK!!!!!! I TAKE SHADOWRUN DEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REVOLUTION |
Ever played the first Deus Ex computer game? The NSF faction from there is quite similar to what you have in mind.
Posted by: boskop-albatros Jun 13 2006, 10:05 AM
Thank you
so who is the NSF faction Then? Omer Joel?
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 13 2006, 11:13 AM
The NSF are a faction in the Deus Ex computer game which is first presented as a "terrorist" group with militia mentality but is then revealed to be a libertarian resistance group fighting against Corporate world domination (Deus Ex's plot is, in a nutshell, about a corporate mogul's attempt to achieve global dominatin; the player has to stop him and thus eventually works with NSF).
Get Deus Ex if you can, its a very good computer game with a Shadowrun feel.
Posted by: Voran Jun 13 2006, 12:27 PM
I'd recommend avoiding Deus Ex 2 (invisible war) tho. Its a dumbed down console port version that doesn't support the mod community that extended the life of the original Deus Ex
And the protagonist was exceptionally annoying.
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