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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ LoneStar Gear

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 6 2006, 08:46 AM

The gear listed for the LoneStar grunts on SR4 pp.275-276 seems a bit strange to me; I'll list my issues here, and then my suggestions.

Issues:

1) Why give rookie cops and sergeants different handguns? I'd give the 'Star in general one standard hangun; if a different weapon is needed by the cop's mission, she'll get a different class of weapon (shotgun for bad neighbourhoods, assault rifle for Barrens duty or SWAT).

2) Colt American L36? Why? In the world of armored and lethal gangers, I'd want to carry something with stopping power and some armor-penetration capabilities if I were a cop. A heavy pistol, for the very least, or a shotgun.

3) The Sergeant has a Browning Max Power listed for her, while this weapon isn't given in SR4, only in previous editions. I'd give all LS patrolmen the Colt Manhunter (or a Ruger Super Warhawk - this thing has stoping power glore AND penetration) and a Definace Ex Shocker, with a Remington 990 in the squad car to be used in emergencies.

4) The Defiance Ex Shocker is misnamed "Definace Super Shock" - probably not updated from 3ed.

5) I'd give each cop a CommLink (the 'Star has to stay with the times, after all, and it'll be very useful to access suspect databases at a cop's fingertips). I'd call it the LoneStar CyberCop™, give it Response 3, Signal 4 (with the squad car carrying a booster), System 3 and Firewall 5 (is Firewall limited by Response or System?). LoneStar computer-security specialists will use the LoneStar CyberCop Turbo™ CommLink with Response 5, Signal 4, System 5 and Firewall 5. A LoneStar subsidery assembles these CommLinks from components purchased cheap from another corp (Renraku?).

6) Similarly, I'd give each cop Glasses with Low-Light, Flare Compensation, Image Link and Smartlink, as well as a microphone and an earbud.

7) The equipment listing should add Restrains (I'd prefer the disposable plastic ones).

8) Each squad-car (Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-1) should probably carry a medkit or more, containment manacles, a strong transmitter-booster and more ammo and stun-baton recharge batteries.

9) For Barrens duty, I'd give the 'Star FN HARs, or, for the very least, give them Remington 990s as their standard weapon. Should they get Full-Body Armor as well for such duty?

10) Cyberware-wise, I'd give Plastic Bone Lacing to most cops; it cuts in medical bills for broken bones (a common result of brawls); this would be followed by an implanted Smartlink, Reaction Enhancers, and Muscle Replacement for cops who sign into various "cyber-mortgage" schemes set up by the corp.

Posted by: Serbitar Jun 6 2006, 10:47 AM

Firewall is constrained by System is constrained by Response.

The D20 like "Thug and officer" rules are as stupid as they wanna be.

Posted by: Ophis Jun 6 2006, 10:53 AM

Actually I've found no reference to firewall being limited, it's a rating in it's own right rather than a program, system is IIRC specifically refered to as being limited by responce and then in turn limiting programs, firewall is listed as a rating on the device seperate to progs. Plus published fanpro adventures (SR Missins 2 i recall) has firewalls shown well in excess of the system.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 6 2006, 12:27 PM

Remember that Lone Star may approve several pistols, so you might find LS Officers carrying slightly different weapons. The FN HAR probably is a bad idea. f the officers are trained with shotguns, this would be the longarm skill, while the FN HAR relies on the automatics skill. You would be better off issuing something like an M-1A... (something like 7P -1 (or -2) SA RC (1) Ammo 20 © Avail 4R 1200Y.

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 6 2006, 01:19 PM

Hmmm... By the way, what skill does an automatic shotgun (Such as the CMDT) rely on? Automatics or Longarms? And why does the CMDT have no slug-round stats, only Flechette ones?

If it uses the Longarms skill, I'd give it to 'Stars on Barrens duty.

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 6 2006, 01:27 PM

QUOTE (Serbitar)

The D20 like "Thug and officer" rules are as stupid as they wanna be.

The Grunt ("Thug") rules are pretty useful IMHO - they reduce paperwork done with rank-and-file expandable NPCs. The fact that higher-ups in the rank system have better skills is another matter, though.

I'd set the skills by the job of the NPC (i.e. patrol as opposed to SWAT as opposed to admin as opposed to Bomb Squad) and not by her rank, except for administrative and/or leadership skills for experienced officers.

Posted by: Kiedo Jun 6 2006, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (Omer Joel)

And why does the CMDT have no slug-round stats, only Flechette ones?

That's simple, game balance. A full burst of EXEX would be: DV: 18P, AP: -3. And if you had the shotty equipped with a gyro mount and gas vent 3, along with smartlink you'd suffer no recoil AND get a +2 DP modifier. So say you've got an agility of 6 and a longarm skill of 6 with a specialization in shotguns, plus five levels of improved combat skill longarm(+5), plus a reflex recorder(+1) and imrpoved agility 2, you'd be rolling 22 dice, which almost garantees a successful hit(and kill, even against ultra mega troll).

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 6 2006, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (Kiedo @ Jun 6 2006, 05:00 PM)

QUOTE (Omer Joel @ Jun 6 2006, 08:19 AM)

And why does the CMDT have no slug-round stats, only Flechette ones?

I'd still like them to have something better than the Remington 990 to use in Barrens duty. The other alternative is to drop shotguns altogather and give them the Pistol and Automatic skills, and then put an SMG or two for backup in the squadcar and supply Barrens units with assault riles. But a shotgun fits their "feel" better IMHO.

Posted by: Gauvain Jun 6 2006, 05:40 PM

Shotguns are badass and cheap. Best BOOM for the buck.

Light pistols aren't anywhere near as bad as they used to be. As in they can do damage now.

All in all, other than the editing mistakes, the Star units seem OK.

Have to agree with the addition of optics and commlink, though. Couple more nuyen for a very large jump in effectiveness.

As an aside, if you're setting up your street cops with heavy pistols and glasses-based smartlinks, wouldn't a Predator 4 (knock off) be better due to its internal smartlink circuitry?

Ah...the days of the Thunderbolt...

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 6 2006, 05:40 PM

Give them a FN-HAR (or an M23, but those aren't in yet) without an autofire setting, and say it uses Longarms.

Plenty of cops today are issued semiautomatic .223 rifles as replacements or augmentations for the traditional squad car shotgun, especially in urban areas where the increased precision of the rifle over the shotgun can reduce collateral damage. Doing the same thing in 2070 makes sense.

Or you could have one cop trained on Longarms, and his partner trained on Automatics, and issue one shotgun, one assault rifle.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 6 2006, 06:47 PM

Even today there are cops who legally own assault rifles and are allowed to use them on duty.
Of course, today they are limited to the civilian/police (aka semiautomatic) variants of those rifles.

Posted by: Vasili Jun 6 2006, 06:57 PM

I'm going to go ahead and say patrolmen aren't geared out like that. Response teams, backup units etc? Sure.

Posted by: Protagonist Jun 6 2006, 07:42 PM

QUOTE (Omer Joel)

2) Colt American L36? Why? In the world of armored and lethal gangers, I'd want to carry something with stopping power and some armor-penetration capabilities if I were a cop. A heavy pistol, for the very least, or a shotgun.

In third, they had the Ruger Thunderbolt (I think that's the right name), didn't they? I can't quite remember.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 6 2006, 07:48 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

[...]in urban areas where the increased precision of the rifle over the shotgun can reduce collateral damage.

I was under the impression that the opposite was true: shotguns have a much lower likelihood of over-penetrating and hitting bystanders after going through walls, and they're brutally effective against unarmored opponents (which most civilians are...). I would think that the rifles would mostly be needed vs the armored bad-guys, and would only be held by the SWAT teams.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 6 2006, 08:04 PM

A shotgun's spread makes it effective at close ranges... with the right ammunition and choke combination, you might be able to effectively use it as far out as 40 yards, but that's generally considered to be about as long as a fighting shotgun can really reach. Often times, police shotguns and issue ammunition will not be one of these optimum configurations, meaning that their effective engagement range is even shorter.

The spread on a shotgun poses an issue in terms of collateral damage. They're fairly imprecise weapons, and it's not uncommon for pellets to get by a target even if he's struck by the better part of the pattern, presenting a danger to anybody in that direction even if you hit the intended target. 00 buckshot has enough momentum that it can still go through a few walls before it'll stop, and at closer ranges (a few yards, before the shot pattern really has a chance to spread) it'll go through a wall nearly as well as a slug.

A .223 carbine or rifle gives the officer a much more precise, much longer ranged weapon to work with, and some of the frangible rounds that are available for .223's have less penetration problems than some pistol-caliber hollowpoints. It's a bit of a shock until you think about it... the slug only weighs about 60 grains (compared to 150-250 for the more common LE handgun rounds), and it's going about 3000 feet per second... if it's designed to fragment when it hits something, it's got a lot of kinetic energy to tear itself apart with.

As you pointed out, FMJ ammunition is another story.

I'm not sure what the duty load is like where you live, but my (limited) understanding of Seattle PD's loadout is that they're carrying Speer .40 caliber 165-grain Gold Dot; again, an effort to reduce danger to bystanders by loading hollowpoints. Here, at least, they've gotten over the whole "cops shouldn't use ammunition that's designed to kill people" phenomenon.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 6 2006, 11:07 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

My perspective is that, unless you're a SWAT reaction force, cops generally don't get a chance to engage at range anyway. They're always standing right there with the spouse-beating husband when the wife comes around the corner with a cleaver in her hand, or something like that. How often have you seen normal police [no SWAT around] in a city environment engaging at over 40 yards? When the police know ahead of time that the lead's going to fly, the SWAT team gets sent in to do the distance work. Normally the cops are up close when things go to shit, and if they were 50 yards away from a running target they wouldn't even try to shoot for fear of missing and causing 'collateral damage' .

Posted by: eidolon Jun 7 2006, 01:44 AM

QUOTE (Protagonist)

In third, they had the Ruger Thunderbolt (I think that's the right name), didn't they? I can't quite remember.

Yes.

Ruger Thunderbolt, Avail 14/12days, Cost: 1,000, St. Index 2.5
Conceal 4
Ammo 12©
Mode BF
Damage 12S
Weight 2.75

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 7 2006, 05:17 AM

[Edited out, because my reading comprehension sucks sometimes.]
As for penetration distance of .223 Rem or 5.56x45mm NATO deforming ammo, to reduce the shock of "thinking", http://stevespages.com/page8f223remington.html averaged 11" of penetration through water-filled jugs, whereas all the serious handgun defense ammunition tested by the same person penetrate between ~17" and 24". Even .308 Winchester deforming ammunition doesn't necessarily penetrate much further than handgun JHPs.

Likewise small caliber high-velocity deforming rifle ammunition will tend to retain their wounding ability much worse after penetrating certain rigid objects, like most walls, than defensive handgun ammunition or shotgun slugs.

Shotgun spread: with the kinds of shotguns (and chokes) employed by police departments, firing 00 buck at a perp at anything more than 10 yards runs a pretty high risk of some shot missing the target even on a center-mass hit. It's not just a problem beyond 40 yards. There are plenty more instances where missed shot has wounded bystanders than where rifles have -- though admittedly that may more to do with the prevalence of shotguns as the Police Big Gun.

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 7 2006, 07:43 AM

QUOTE (Vasili)

I'm going to go ahead and say patrolmen aren't geared out like that. Response teams, backup units etc? Sure.

Remember that the avarage criminal of 2070 is far more heavily armed, armored and trained than his 2006 predecessor. This is not to mention the fract that the Barrens are a whole third-world nation of their own, with gangs armed with AK-97s or Uzis and sometimes worse things. So the arms-race between cops and preps would probably get the avarage cop to carry a heavy pistol or a shotgun and be armored well in the "civilized" areas (security ratings D and abouve) and be ready to fight a full-flung ground war in the Barrens.

IRL, the Israeli police sometimes patrol with assault rifles (Galil SAR or MAR or an M16) or with SMGs (typically the smaller Uzi variants). This has to do with two things: first, the lines between "police" and "military" are somewhat blurred in Israel, and, second, the Israeli police is also tasked with routine anti-terrorist work (i.e. catching suicide-bombers before they reach their target). Body armor, ofcourse, is rarer as its much more expensive than IDF-surplus assault rifles (even the military has a shortage of ceramic vests). So, with go-gangers toting SMGs and AK-97s roaming the highways, I won't be surprised to see the 'Star carrying heavy firepower - atleast a good shotgun - in the more risky patrol routes.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 7 2006, 08:24 AM

And there's the simply fact that killing a big, bony troll requires deeper penetration and bigger wound cavities. With some descriptions of troll sizes and of their "dermal armor", the kinds of handgun loads police use to kill people with nowadays would be woefully inadequate. It'd be like shooting humans with BB guns. You'd want at least .45 ACP or 10mm Auto level handguns firing controlled expansion bullets at decent velocities, and even that would not really be enough so there would always be a shotgun and slug ammo riding in every patrol car.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 08:28 AM

The way I'd see it is that the stats in the book reflect your C and up (B, A, AA, and AAA) cops. The guys who are not likely to see a real lead-throwing engagement. The worse these guys are going to get into is a battered wife trying to bobbitize her husband.

For the riskier areas (D zones), shotguns or a sporting rifle would not be unheard of, and the carry pistols get heavier as a general rule. Think Predator IV, and he's got either an SGL system in his eyes, or SGL glasses.

There's no such thing as a "regular" cop going into the barrens, and the actual borders of the barrens would really be more akin to a border checkpoint in Iraq. Think 6-meter-tall reinforced armored walls manned by guards carrying LMGs with bipods (or, alternatively, the walls have pintle mounts every few feet, and the guards' LMGs have pintle pegs), with a gaggle of drones on-hand, likely the good old reliable Strato-9, and probably an armored vehicle not dissimilar to today's Stryker.

As for going into the barrens?.... You're on your own. HTR is about the lighest force that would do something that fucktastically retarded.

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 7 2006, 08:45 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 7 2006, 10:28 AM)

As for going into the barrens?.... You're on your own. HTR is about the lighest force that would do something that fucktastically retarded.

The 'Star would go to the Barrens only in major raids (which are rare, organized crime is usually not stupid enough to give the 'Star excuses to do so - most raids would be against the crazier major gangs or terrorists such as Sons of Sauron), and then they'll be equipped similarly to an Israeli infantry incursion to Gaza proper - at minimum we're talking about serious body armor, assault rifles, underbarrel grenade launchers, APCs with HMGs (or more), attack choppers on call for the case of emergency...

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 09:01 AM

Like I said - a High Threat Response team.

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 7 2006, 09:24 AM

QUOTE (eidolon @ Jun 7 2006, 03:44 AM)

QUOTE (Protagonist @ Jun 6 2006, 02:42 PM)

In third, they had the Ruger Thunderbolt (I think that's the right name), didn't they? I can't quite remember.

Yes.

Ruger Thunderbolt, Avail 14/12days, Cost: 1,000, St. Index 2.5
Conceal 4
Ammo 12©
Mode BF
Damage 12S
Weight 2.75

So, in SR4 terms, It'll be something like:

Ruger Thunderbolt, Avail 12R, Cost: 1,000Y
Concealed as Machine Pistol
Ammo 12 (C )
Mode BF [why not SA as well?]
Damage 7P (Slug) or 9P (Flechette)
AP -1 (Slug) or +2 (Flechette)
Heavy Pistol Ranges; uses the Pistols skill; uses Shotgun spread

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 7 2006, 12:00 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

You could say that's what most police officers in the modern US are mostly faced with now, and they still carry handguns and ammunition specifically designed to kill the potential perpetrators (in this case humans) as effectively as possible. AFAIK, shotguns in patrol cars are quite common right now in the US.

In the 2060s and 70s they're still going to use weaponry designed to kill the potential perps, only now that includes 2.5+ meters tall bone-plated monstrosities. Hence more powerful firearms will be more common, including ordinary cops who don't go anywhere near places like the Barrens.

That might not mean they are going to carry .44 Magnum equivalents everywhere, but their sidearms will certainly rate somewhere well above 9x19mm (those are giving way to .40 S&Ws, .45 ACPs, etc. even now, with only humans to worry about), and they will have shotguns with slugs, or similar heavy weaponry, nearby at all times, unless there simply aren't any trolls anywhere near the area they cover.

That's from a RL logic perspective, of course. From the "realism of the game world" PoV, it doesn't matter what guns they have, all you need is basic training, smartgoggles and EX-Ex, and trolls start dropping like flies.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 12:19 PM

[sarcasm]Oooooh, that's a good idea. Let's give every police officer a Ruger Super Warhawk with EX-EX as a carry piece. [/sarcasm]

[edit]Added for the benefit of the sarcasm-impaired.

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 7 2006, 01:16 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 7 2006, 02:19 PM)

Oooooh, that's a good idea. Let's give every police officer a Ruger Super Warhawk with EX-EX as a carry piece.

Now THAT will put some manners into trigger-happy homicidical PCs!

Posted by: Grinder Jun 7 2006, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

[sarcasm]Oooooh, that's a good idea. Let's give every police officer a Ruger Super Warhawk with EX-EX as a carry piece.

No longer warning shots...

Posted by: Tarantula Jun 7 2006, 02:20 PM

Well, for all those who don't know, the ruger thunderbolt was a three barrelled pistol chambered to fire shotgun slugs in a burst only. By burst, it means all three barrels fired at once. Check page 19 of cannon companion for a description. The biggest key phrase in that is "it is the chosen weapon of Lone Star, officers of that organization can recognize the sound of a Thunderbolt being fired from a considerable distance, and will harass and/or detain any non-Lone Star person carrying one."

It is the sidearm of choice in SR3, and I see little reason why that would have changed (beyond it probably showing up in Arsensal). Till then, super warhawks probably make the best substitute, except the fact that they're SS, and the thunderbolt fire twice each pass.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 7 2006, 02:41 PM

Just look at (paramilitary) police forces like the Gendarmerie Nationale (France), Guardia Civil (Spain), Carabinieri (Italy).

Since their founding in the 18th and early 19th centuries, they are equipped with military grade weapons, and continue to use them. (The word carabinieri is derived from the carbine).

Of course, traditionally those police units where (and still are) mostly stationed in rural areas, where reinforcements might take a while to arrive.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 7 2006, 02:51 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

[sarcasm]Oooooh, that's a good idea. Let's give every police officer a Ruger Super Warhawk with EX-EX as a carry piece.

[/sarcasm]

Other than the issues of practical RoF and the stupid We Go Off At Random thing with the ammo, why not give average police officers Ruger Super Warhawks and EX-Ex?

QUOTE (Tarantula)

Well, for all those who don't know, the ruger thunderbolt was a three barrelled pistol chambered to fire shotgun slugs in a burst only.

Is this description from SR2 or earlier? I seem to remember something about a "90,000rpm cyclic rate of fire", too. The Cannon Companion makes no mention of the amount of barrels or rate of fire (other than it being Burst Fire only), and in SR3 it fires generic Heavy Pistol ammunition (not shotgun slugs).

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 7 2006, 03:07 PM

Shotgun slugs? Three barrels? If you're going to quote the description of the weapon, quote that stuff as well.
IIRC it looks like a regular pistol, fired regular pistol ammo (9M), and that damage code of 12S is just factoring in the BF, since it has no SA mode.

Posted by: Edward Jun 7 2006, 03:19 PM

Dam, missed out.

I was going to point out the lack of evidence for the warhawk having 3 barrels or firing shotgun rounds in canon companion.

Posted by: Gauvain Jun 7 2006, 06:17 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

I was going to ask where this shotgun stuff came from. It is a heavy pistol, with one burst recoil-less, the second burst with recoil doubled. And a nasty tendency to bring lots of cops at a run.

The old Lone Star book calls it the same way.

Posted by: Glorian Jun 7 2006, 06:57 PM

QUOTE (Tarantula)

Well, for all those who don't know, the ruger thunderbolt was a three barrelled pistol chambered to fire shotgun slugs in a burst only.

Uh, nothing written seems to indicate that the Ruger Thunderbolt fires flechette or shotgun rounds only, nor that it has three barrels. Instead, it fires the first burst so fast, that recoil isn't instantly felt. Think of the burst mode on the H&K G11.

From Cannon Compendium, p.19:

QUOTE

The Thunderbolt fires only in burst fire mode (already incorporated into the Damage Code), but incurs no recoil penalty on the first burst fired in a Combat Phase. The second burst suffers a special +4 recoil penalty.

From Lone Star Sourcebook, p. 116:

QUOTE

The Thunderbolt heavy pistol has only one setting, which is burst-fire: one squeeze of the trigger fires three rounds. What makes the Thunderbolt unique is the incredibly high cyclical rate of fire: over 1,500 rounds per second! This means that the entire three-round burst is out of the barrel in two one-thousandths of a second, well before the muzzle begins to rise. This eliminates the recoil disadvantage of burst-fire and ensures all three bullets hit the target.

The picture on the same page is of a normal-looking pistol. No triple barrels.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 7 2006, 07:02 PM

That must mean that the thunderbolt is a metal storm weapon .

edit: Meaning, something like the sakura fubuki.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 7 2006, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Apathy @ Jun 6 2006, 03:07 PM)

You're missing out on the point I was trying to make. The *maximum* distance that an *optimized* shotgun, loading the *optimal* shot round for *that particular shotgun* is usually seen as being usable at is 40 yards. This does not mean the range at which you can keep the entire pattern on the target, this means the maximum distance at which you can get enough of the pattern to hit the target to make it worthwhile trying to use a shotgun at all.

When you're talking about an 18" cruiser gun with the stock choke and whatever the load of choice for that department is, the maximum effective range is going to be a lot less than 40 meters. You may wound the target, but the odds of doing significant damage are not good. You know all those pictures you see of cops hanging out behind the engine blocks of their car, pointing shotguns at some yahoo 50 yards down the highway from them who's wandering around outside of his car with a handgun? That's always said to me "these guys need more training, if they think that's going to do any good."

In urban areas, you can't assume that the distance you're going to engage a target at is always going to be short, because there's a lot of places where you can get some pretty good distance. Some Seattle "blocks" are actually 2-3 blocks long (go north from 50th on 7th ave, the next turn will be at 53rd, over 100m away). There's hard cover (cars, brick buildings, concrete) all over the place. There's also people living all over the place. Any shotshell fired at more than about 10 yards runs pretty good odds of having at least some of the pellets miss... if there's a building behind the guy (good odds on that), the people inside are in danger. Having SWAT show up to every call that might involve a shot more than 25 long steps away from an officer is a waste of resources, and impractical.

A lot of US police departments are rethinking their shotguns for exactly this reason. It's easier to train someone to use a carbine, they're lighter, usually shorter, semiautomatic (as opposed to usually being pump-action), hold 5x as much ammunition in a detatchable (rather than tubular) magazine, don't have scatter/pattern problems, can easily and accurately engage a point target out to any range the officer is going to find himself shooting at, don't recoil as much, allow faster follow-up shots, and at close ranges with the proper ammunition they don't have the overpenetration problems of a shotgun.

Check out other police forces in other parts of the world. The choice of shotguns as a patrolman's long gun is mostly an American phenomenon.

Posted by: Voran Jun 7 2006, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

[sarcasm]Oooooh, that's a good idea. Let's give every police officer a Ruger Super Warhawk with EX-EX as a carry piece.

[/sarcasm]

[edit]Added for the benefit of the sarcasm-impaired.

Hehe, in some games I know, giving LS officers that load out would almost ensure they would be ambushed by playerchars for the 'free' Ex-Ex ammo.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 7 2006, 11:10 PM

Back when the Ares Predator with Firepower ammo was new, my brother's game had them restricted as hell. The only people who could get the gun or the ammo were members of Lone Star's anti-cyborg unit. I've taken EX-EX out of my game entirely... maybe I should have it be something these units hand-make?

Posted by: eidolon Jun 8 2006, 02:20 AM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jun 7 2006, 10:07 AM)

I was going to throw the bullshit card down, but several people beat me to it.

Short answer: I didn't include that because it isn't there.

@Omer: As far as SR4 stats, I have no idea. I'm the wrong person to ask.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 8 2006, 06:07 AM

SR4 stats shouldn't be that hard.

5/-1, 12©, BF, heavy pistol ranges. Integral laser sight or smartlink.
No recoil on first burst, -4 recoil on second burst.

I don't remember it having any other mods than this... i just remember pretending the damn thing didn't exist

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 12 2006, 09:50 AM

So here are my current SR4 LoneStar stats:

LoneStar Patrol Officer (Professional Rating 2)
Race: Human

CODE

B A R S C I L W ESS Init IP CM
3(4) 3 3 3 2 3 2 3 5.5 7 1 10

Skills: Clubs 1 (Batons +2), Perception 2, Pistols 3, Lonagrms 1 (Shotguns +2), Unarmed Combat 1 (Subdual Combat +2), Etiquette 2 (Street +2), Intimidation 2 (Interrogation +2), Negotiation 1, Pilot Ground Vehicle 1 (Wheeled +2), Athletics Skill Group 1, First Aid 1.
Knowledge Skills: Law (Professional Knowledge) 1, Police Procedures (Professional Knowledge) 3.
Cyberware: Plastic Bone Lacing.
Gear: Colt Manhunter (w/Smartlink and 3 additional clips), Defiance EX Shocker (w/Smartlink and 8 additional darts), Stun Baton, Armor Jacket [8/6], Glasses (w/Image Link, Smartlink, Low-Light and Thermographic), LoneStar CyberCop™ CommLink [Response 3, System 3, Signal 3, Firewall 5), Wireless Earbuds, Disposable Plasteel Restrains.

The Squad Car (Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-1, SR4 p.342) carries two Remington 990's (w/Smartgun and a large number of shells), two gas Masks, a Sattelite Uplink (capable of relaying the CommLinks' transmissions), several restrains, more ammo for the Colt Manhunters and the Defiance EX Shockers, and a fully-stocked MedKit.

On Riot Duty, add Helmets, Gas Masks, Riot Shields and a Remington 990 loaded with Gel Rounds instead of the Defiance EX Shocker; one riot-cop per 10 will carry an ares Antioch-2 grenade launcher with CS/Tear Gas grenades.

LoneStar Veteran Patrol Officer (Professional Rating 3)
Race: Human

CODE

B A R S C I L W ESS Init IP CM
3(4) 3(4) 3(4) 3(4) 3 3 3 3 3.1 8 1 10

Skills: Clubs 2 (Batons +2), Perception 3, Pistols 3, Lonagrms 1 (Shotguns +2), Unarmed Combat 1 (Subdual Combat +2), Etiquette 3 (Street +2), Intimidation 3 (Interrogation +2), Negotiation 2, Pilot Ground Vehicle 1 (Wheeled +2), Athletics Skill Group 1, First Aid 1.
Knowledge Skills: Law (Professional Knowledge) 2, Police Procedures (Professional Knowledge) 4, Seattle Gangs (Street Knowledge) 2.
Cyberware: Plastic Bone Lacing, Reaction Enhancement 1, Muscle Replacement 1, Smartlink.
Gear: Colt Manhunter (w/Smartlink and 3 additional clips), Defiance EX Shocker (w/Smartlink and 8 additional darts), Stun Baton, Armor Jacket [8/6], Glasses (w/Image Link, Smartlink, Low-Light and Thermographic), LoneStar CyberCop™ CommLink [Response 3, System 3, Signal 3, Firewall 5), Wireless Earbuds, Disposable Plasteel Restrains.

The main difference between the regular (relatively inexperienced) Patrol Officer and a Veteranone is the time spent on the Beat serving the 'Star; experience is coupeled with long-term cyber-mortgage programs (you need several years on the porogram to save up for serious cyber), making the Veteran cop into the avarage prep's nightmare.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 12 2006, 10:14 AM

No athletic related skills? How about running and jumping.
A cop with next to no social skills?

Also, the 190 points in stas is over the top, that is runner level stas for an ordinary street cop.

Also, I think your weapon skills are quite inflated, especially when it's 4 different weapon skills. Assuming that cops are built with karma, I would expect the training program to take advantage of the relative cheapness of specializations:

something like:

Stats: average of 3, 2 random stats at 4

pistols 2 (semi-auto)
longarms 1 (rifles) (most cops don't train extensively with long arms)
(see discussion elsewhere about how a rifle or carbine is probably a better idea than a shotgun)
Unarmed 1 (or 2?)
clubs 2 (stun baton?)

eqiquette 2 (street)
con 1 (fast talk)?
intimidation 1 (interrogation)?
negotiation 2 (sense motive)?

running 2 (or 1)
climbing 1
gymnastics 1
perception 2

pilot ground vehicle 1 (cars)
first aid 1

KS: police procedures 3
KS: Law 1

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 12 2006, 10:25 AM

Thanks for your excellent suggestions. Correction made.

Posted by: Red Jun 12 2006, 12:13 PM

Given the relative power of non-lethal firearms in 4th edition, I'm surprised that stick-n-shock, and gel rounds haven't played a greater role in this discussion. Consider the fact that a stick-n-shock round has the same power regardless of the firearm, and it is extremely capable at putting down any metahuman subspecies with a simple double tap. It has no overpenetration issues to speak of, and even if the enemy is wearing armor that armor is highly unlikely to make any significant difference unless they've invested in non-conductive modifications. Even if a round goes wild they are significantly less likely to cause a bystander significant injury or death, thus reducing the liability for officers firing in a chaotic environment. Finally, stick-n-shock rounds are the only ammunition that enables a common beat cop to have any kind of chance against powerful spirits. Consider a single net hit on a stick-n-shock allows a mere beat cop to beat the immunity to normal weapons of a Force 7 spirit. The only real disadvantage to stick-n-shock is the relatively high price, and the fact that it can't (or shouldn't, the rules are not explicit here) penetrate even the lightest cover.

Posted by: Tetsuyama Jun 12 2006, 02:24 PM

Why a Signal 6 radio rather than a Satellite Link in the car? And a possibly more loony question: anyone want to try statting out the car's node? You *know* the PCs are going to hack in to try to cut the Stars off from backup.

Posted by: Red Jun 12 2006, 04:39 PM

Be careful there. If you stat the commlinks inside a LoneStar patrol car too well, then they become bait for theft. 10,000+ nuyen worth of computers inside? Delicious. Besides, in order to make a solid matrix defense you require at least two decently statted commlinks. (One chokepoint, the second being the workplace)

Posted by: Stan Dard Jun 12 2006, 05:12 PM

QUOTE (Red)

Consider a single net hit on a stick-n-shock allows a mere beat cop to beat the immunity to normal weapons of a Force 7 spirit.

Red, although I agree with you in most of what you wrote, this sounds to be either a house rule or misunderstanding.

Quoting from p.288:
"The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to twice its Magic against that damage."
"Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical."

Posted by: Red Jun 12 2006, 10:26 PM

It was based off the idea that elemental attacks half armor. So one could call it a gray zone in 4th ed. But it was explicitly valid in 3rd.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 12 2006, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Red)

It was based off the idea that elemental attacks half armor. So one could call it a gray zone in 4th ed. But it was explicitly valid in 3rd.

No grey area for you, you munch bastard! Don't even try that on Friday!

Posted by: Squinky Jun 12 2006, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Red)

Fencing Lonestar goods more than a few times will buy you a ticket to a bad place I am sure. I think they should have decent stuff, if the runners steal it, so be it. Make a habit of it, and they will pay.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 12 2006, 10:34 PM

QUOTE (Squinky)

QUOTE (Red @ Jun 12 2006, 11:39 AM)

Agreed. After a few times, you'll get a reputation for stealing and fencing LS goods. I doubt any fence with a sense of self-preservation will touch you after that. Not to mention that the cops will definitely be asking around.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 12 2006, 10:38 PM

Unless of course they just want to steal it for themselves.

Posted by: eidolon Jun 13 2006, 03:00 AM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

SR4 stats shouldn't be that hard. <snip>

QUOTE (My signature)

!SR4

I'm the wrong person to ask.

Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 13 2006, 07:23 AM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (Squinky @ Jun 12 2006, 05:30 PM)

QUOTE (Red @ Jun 12 2006, 11:39 AM)

Stealing from the 'Star is BAD - their gear probably has several nasty tracking devices hidden in it, and even if the players will remove them, being a target of a theft is very bad to a Cop Corp's reputation; they'll go after the thieves in force simply to keep their reputation.

On the other hand, that CommLink is a good reason to be on the good side of your Lone Star contact - it will probably cost you a *major* favor, but there ARE ways to get one without the tracking devices and without alerting the corp by means of connections and corruption. Not easy, but rewarding.

And yes, I've changed the car's radio to a Sattelite Uplink. Thabks for that piece of advice

Posted by: Red Jun 13 2006, 01:04 PM

If the cheese is good enough, the mice will find a way to take it. LoneStar has thousands of patrol cars around the metroplex. One of them is going to go into a matrix deadzone at some point. Whether it is a strong jammer, or driving into an inclosed structure, or whatever. It is a car, and it isn't nailed to the ground. Toss it into a "box" with enough shielding and all those tracking devices don't mean a thing. Given sufficient skill and tools, runners or chopshoppers can disassemble the parts and take exactly what they want and no more.

It is highly unlikely that anybody would do this sort of thing on a large scale. They are simply easier ways to steal commlinks. But I don't buy the idea that just because there are tracking devices, and they have LS logos stamped on them that players should never consider it. Both of those can be circumvented provided there is sufficient reason, like 15,000 nuyen worth of computers (completely arbitrary number). They do far worse, and far more dangerous things in their line of work. The only real protection the GM can offer a patrol car is to simply point out that; 1. There are bigger fruit out there, and 2. Some of that fruit is easier to get.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 16 2006, 07:36 PM

I stumbled about that http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/f/fd/Polizei.jpg with regular german policemen carrying MP5 in front of a german army hospital in hamburg (in 2004, I think).
In the background you can see a http://www.polizeiautos.de/show_one.php?id=1920, which is basically a civil APC but based on the Unimog (a truck, rather than a military vehicle).

[The Sonderwagen 4 was built by the Thyssen Maschinenbau, which was bought in 1997 and renamed to ThyssenKrupp...]