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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Comlink's Firewall and System ratings?
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 09:45 AM
I found the rules for having a Response and Signal rating above 4 at the end of the Wireless World, but where are the rules for upgrading your Firewall and System?
I really don't like the idea of going into cybercombat with a Firewall at rating 3 and System at rating 4, and that's the best O.S. listed - the Novatech Navi. I can't find the rules for upgrading them.
Posted by: Omer Joel Jun 7 2006, 09:59 AM
The prices are on the Program Costs and Availability table on p.228.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 10:08 AM
I...
Am a frigging moron. 
Posted by: Aaron Jun 7 2006, 12:37 PM
I started with a hacker with fives in all of the pertinent program and commlink ratings. My GM initially got annoyed at how I was able to walk over any system I cared to (this was before he figured out that this was The Way Things Are These Days), and put me up against a commlink that had a Rating 6 System and Firewall (along with some big programs). Once I broke in, I just copied the System and Firewall (along with the aforementioned big programs) and got it for free.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 01:11 PM
Aaron: Bwahahaaaaah! Nice one!
Posted by: Teulisch Jun 7 2006, 07:20 PM
heres an equipment list for a hacker who wants it all.
============
Commlink: ($5000)
response 5 ($4000), Signal 4 ($500), case ($100),
Hot Sim ($250+), skinlink ($50), Trodes($50), subvocal microphone ($50)
Programs: ($104,200)
System 6, Firewall 6 ($6000),
analyze 6, browse 6, command 6, edit 6, encrypt 6, reality filter 6, scan 6 ($4,200)
Armor 6, attack 6, biofeedback filter 6, decrypt 6, defuse 6, ECCM 6, exploit 6, medic 6, Sniffer 6, stealth 6, track 6, Spoof 6, blackout 6, data bomb 6 ($84,000)
Agent 4 ($10,000)
total: $109,200, or 22 build points. ($800 left over for games and music).
==============
If reality filter works, response raises to 6, allowing the system to operate at that level, and all programs as well. this is the primary reason to use hit sim, instead of wired reflexes and AR. test would be 10 dice vs targets system+response as an opposed test. so you can expect to walk all over a response 3 system with your effectively response 6 commlink.
the added bonus, is if you can upgrade your response to 6 later, then you can get an effective 7 response with 12 dice of your filter on the test.
you can run reality filter and 4 other programs without affecting your response.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 7 2006, 08:00 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| I started with a hacker with fives in all of the pertinent program and commlink ratings. My GM initially got annoyed at how I was able to walk over any system I cared to (this was before he figured out that this was The Way Things Are These Days), and put me up against a commlink that had a Rating 6 System and Firewall (along with some big programs). Once I broke in, I just copied the System and Firewall (along with the aforementioned big programs) and got it for free. |
You're GM let you copy software running on a target system? That seems off.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 7 2006, 08:11 PM
yes, there is something oddball about that...
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 7 2006, 09:01 PM
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| yes, there is something oddball about that... |
Ok so it didn't hit me at first but now I see what's odd about that: You don't run OS programs (Firewall/System) like you do other programs like Attack or Analyze. Programs can be copied or execute, but OS' would require installation. If (for some reason) the system had orginal copies of it's own System and/or Firewall software availble to be copied then maybe.
It would be like saying, "I just copied Windows XP off my friend computer and installed it on mine". Installed software <> Install package.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 7 2006, 09:28 PM
| QUOTE (Teulisch) |
| heres an equipment list for a hacker who wants it all. ============ Commlink: ($5000) response 5 ($4000), Signal 4 ($500), case ($100), Hot Sim ($250+), skinlink ($50), Trodes($50), subvocal microphone ($50) Programs: ($104,200) System 6, Firewall 6 ($6000), analyze 6, browse 6, command 6, edit 6, encrypt 6, reality filter 6, scan 6 ($4,200) Armor 6, attack 6, biofeedback filter 6, decrypt 6, defuse 6, ECCM 6, exploit 6, medic 6, Sniffer 6, stealth 6, track 6, Spoof 6, blackout 6, data bomb 6 ($84,000) Agent 4 ($10,000) total: $109,200, or 22 build points. ($800 left over for games and music). ============== If reality filter works, response raises to 6, allowing the system to operate at that level, and all programs as well. this is the primary reason to use hit sim, instead of wired reflexes and AR. test would be 10 dice vs targets system+response as an opposed test. so you can expect to walk all over a response 3 system with your effectively response 6 commlink. the added bonus, is if you can upgrade your response to 6 later, then you can get an effective 7 response with 12 dice of your filter on the test. you can run reality filter and 4 other programs without affecting your response. |
I thought Availability capped starting warez at Rating 5? Also, why not just by the cheapest commlink and upgrade it that to Max Available rating? It's cheaper.
Posted by: Jaid Jun 7 2006, 10:00 PM
also, why not sattelite link? cheapest upgrade of them all really?
(and as far as program ratings and availability, i seem to recall their being no difference in availability for hacking programs based on rating... it's just one set availability. which is ridiculous of course, but whatever). in fact, that seems so weird i'm going to actually go check *elevator music* ....
no, that's accurate. all hacking programs are availability 12R. go figure.
the limitation is on response (which is limited to 5) which limits your (effective) system to 5, which limits your programs... that is, a rating 6 program on a commlink with system 5 acts as a rating 5 program.
also, it isn't cheaper to buy a low rating commlink and upgrade. you just pay the cost for the highest rating you are getting (ie, you don't pay for rating 1 + rating 2 + rating 3 if you want rating 3). and incidentally, the lowest rating commlink is in fact 100 
anyways... which is the cost he listed for the case (and is, i assume, where the cost of the case was derived from).
however, as far as price goes, you are correct... it is certainly cheaper to buy prepackaged commlinks than it is to build from scratch. only if you need something with higher than prepackaged ratings should you build one from scratch.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 7 2006, 10:20 PM
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) | ||
Ok so it didn't hit me at first but now I see what's odd about that: You don't run OS programs (Firewall/System) like you do other programs like Attack or Analyze. Programs can be copied or execute, but OS' would require installation. If (for some reason) the system had orginal copies of it's own System and/or Firewall software availble to be copied then maybe. It would be like saying, "I just copied Windows XP off my friend computer and installed it on mine". Installed software <> Install package. |
heh, funny thing is that you can do that. as long as you manage to get the boot going...
(not to hard on win95 tho, not so sure about NT-based ones).
and on linux most distro are moving towards a livecd like install. where you boot from cd into a fully working os. then you use a tool to config and copy over a version of said os. basicly its just a case of setting up the needed filesystems and put the bootloader in place, drop the kernel and so on onto the filesystem and your good to go.
same deal with a software based firewall as its basicly just strings of code that have deep connection into the networking stuff, and a ui for managing it.
but in the world of SR, i dont feel its right to rip system and firewall like that...
i guess it have to do with my take on the spirit of the rules...
Posted by: Aaron Jun 8 2006, 02:39 PM
| QUOTE (GrinderDaTroll) |
| You're GM let you copy software running on a target system? That seems off. |
Why not? It's true that some operating systems don't allow you to read, copy, or even access system files, but don't forget that you've got a second processor and OS: the commlink.
Now, as it happened, I had admin access at the time. If I'd been the GM, I wouldn't have let me do it unless I'd had admin access, and I would probably have made me use the copy protection cracking procedure on page 228 of your hymnal before I did it, but it's quite doable.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Aaron: Bwahahaaaaah! Nice one! |
Yeah, I was grinning until I realized that it didn't do me any good until I ponied up for the Response increase. *sigh*
I'm seeing if you can copy system files from XP over SSH while XP is running, I'll let you know what I find.
EDIT: Never mind; that would violate the DMCA.
Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 8 2006, 02:51 PM
try it with linux or a BSD, they are not coverd by that pesky DMCA...
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 8 2006, 05:53 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron) | ||||
Why not? It's true that some operating systems don't allow you to read, copy, or even access system files, but don't forget that you've got a second processor and OS: the commlink. Now, as it happened, I had admin access at the time. If I'd been the GM, I wouldn't have let me do it unless I'd had admin access, and I would probably have made me use the copy protection cracking procedure on page 228 of your hymnal before I did it, but it's quite doable.
Yeah, I was grinning until I realized that it didn't do me any good until I ponied up for the Response increase. *sigh* I'm seeing if you can copy system files from XP over SSH while XP is running, I'll let you know what I find. EDIT: Never mind; that would violate the DMCA. |
SR4 doesn't say either ways about OS (or IC for that matter) so it's really a GM call and considering your GM is already having a problem with Rating-5 at chargen, I am suprised he let you just download the OS and run it.
Personally I'd only allow distro copies to be downloaded and installed, not a running OS and even then I'd make them break the anti-piracy first.
Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 15 2006, 08:15 PM
There is also the fact that several GMs out there know little of real OS operations. If you say it can be done, they might believe you. And sometimes it can be done. And sometimes it can be done after you crack and play.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 15 2006, 08:28 PM
Regardless, it seems like it should have taken you tons of time to break the copy protection for that OS and Firewall. Doing that takes 1 hours intervals
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 15 2006, 08:30 PM
| QUOTE (Shadowmeet) |
| There is also the fact that several GMs out there know little of real OS operations. |
Not that real OS operations have ANYTHING to do with SR. Bear in mind, the first crash allowed computer technology to start over completely fresh, without any of the old legacy mistakes that constantly cripple modern computing. It started over with a fundamentally different architecture, and built out of fundamentally different technologies. It's sort of the technological equivalent of predicting modern warfare based on two chimps throwing their own poop at each other.
Posted by: Geekkake Jun 15 2006, 08:31 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| It's sort of the technological equivalent of predicting modern warfare based on two chimps throwing their own poop at each other. |
You mean there's no difference? I always thought it was essentially just gas-propelled, lead poop.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 15 2006, 08:34 PM
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| Regardless, it seems like it should have taken you tons of time to break the copy protection for that OS and Firewall. Doing that takes 1 hours intervals |
Unless you're in a time-crunch, breaking the software isn't a problem. When you're not running, 100 hours breaking software aint nothing, although you can probably break a Rating 6 in under 12 hours.
Actually copying the software from the node in the first place is what I am arguing against.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 15 2006, 08:34 PM
| QUOTE (Geekkake) | ||
You mean there's no difference? I always thought it was essentially just gas-propelled, lead poop. |
Well that much is true. But there are now infinitely more creative ways of deploying said poop, as well as psychological poop-warface, chemical poop weapons, and political poop flinging that all play a role in modern combat.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 15 2006, 08:43 PM
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Jun 15 2006, 03:34 PM) | ||
Unless you're in a time-crunch, breaking the software isn't a problem. When you're not running, 100 hours breaking software aint nothing, although you can probably break a Rating 6 in under 12 hours. Actually copying the software from the node in the first place is what I am arguing against. |
I was under the impression the hacker did this in a time-constrained situation where it was possible he'd get caught...
Plus he copied some "big programs" along with the OS/Firewall. But yeah I understand where you're coming from.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 15 2006, 09:46 PM
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) | ||||
I was under the impression the hacker did this in a time-constrained situation where it was possible he'd get caught... Plus he copied some "big programs" along with the OS/Firewall. But yeah I understand where you're coming from. |
"Copy Protection" is a bit a of a misnomer as we use it in 2006, you can copy software easily it's getting past the anti-piracy measures that's tricky. Generally speaking, you don't have to break the anti-piracy protection to copy it, just to use it without being the intended owner.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 15 2006, 09:51 PM
that's makes things very open to abuse. grab those utilities and crack them you're safe and waarm at home. It's almost stupid that's there's a check for something so easy to by pass.
Posted by: Teulisch Jun 15 2006, 10:09 PM
I dont think 'safe at home' is really true. some copy protection will include grey IC, tar baby and virus and data bombs that can do evil things to your system and data, worms that will shout your pirating position to the corp next time you get online...
If you fail your check, something bad may happen to your computer. If you glitch, then you got a big problem. crital glitch and you need to re-install your OS and drivers.
and even if you crack it? im betting those stealth programs dont work at all on the mainframe that created them. If you grab some Renraku programs, and try to hack a renraku system, you are SOL.
In the end, you are better off with warez designed by shadow hackers, and sold by deckmeisters, or stuff you program yourself. because anything else is just asking the GM to be 'creative'.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 15 2006, 10:17 PM
| QUOTE (Samaels Ghost) |
| that's makes things very open to abuse. grab those utilities and crack them you're safe and waarm at home. It's almost stupid that's there's a check for something so easy to by pass. |
SR4 does say that piracy is the rule rather than the exception. I'd expect most of any "respectable" hackers tools are homemade or "borrowed for evaluation purposes".
Really though, with Rating capped at 6 and you starting at 5, that's not a huge gap for exploitation. And I won't allow hackers to download running programs.
Upcoming SOTA rules will be interesting, I'd imagine every few months your nova-hot warez will become less so.
Posted by: Geekkake Jun 15 2006, 10:19 PM
Mmmmm... SOTA...
Which book had the old SOTA rules, with the tables and the what-not? I feel like robbing my players of some cash...
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