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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Armor & Encumberence

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 11:00 AM

Where the heck did this come from?

In SR4, only one layer of armor counts, no matter if you're wearing ten sets of armored clothing under your lined duster, and even your first item of armor can count against you for encumerance?

So despite the fact that it's an ultralight catsuit, without a body of 3 you can't wear it without slowing down? And somehow, adding a helmet also slows you down?

Who came up with this? I'm seriously gonna havta ask me DM to re-import the SR3 rules here. >_<

This pretty much makes a high body a REQUIREMENT, no matter WHO you are!

Posted by: Squinky Jun 7 2006, 02:01 PM

Yeah, I personally dig it. A person in my group gave his shaman a body of 2, and was hopeing to wear an armored jacket. Now not only do we make fun of the fact that almost every attack against him will knock him down, but he has to wear armored clothing. Makes sense to me, really. If you are that concerned, give your character a body of three.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 02:04 PM

Not really. You have to be really stupid to wear a non-incredible armor poorly.

Full medieval platemail? Yeah, I can see screwing that up. A jacket that's as heavy and bulky as the leather trenchcoat you own, but just happens to be made of 6/4 kevlar suddenly topples you over and stumbles you around?

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 7 2006, 02:12 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

So despite the fact that it's an ultralight catsuit, without a body of 3 you can't wear it without slowing down? And somehow, adding a helmet also slows you down?

The helmet doesn't count towards encumbrance, as is explicitly mentioned in the rules.

Also, you can wear your ultralight catsuit, at body 2, without slowing down if it's armor rating doesn't exceed 4/4.
One could argue, if it's 6/6 it isn't ultralight anymore...

And, after all, body 3 is kind of average. My Char has body 3, so no standard camouflage suit for him.

Posted by: ornot Jun 7 2006, 02:17 PM

I got the impression from the description of the lined coat in both SR3 and SR4 that it has ballistic plates in it. The weight those would add would be significant.

Take your leather trenchcoat and fill the pockets with cans of beans, run around a bit and see how winded you feel. ^^

Aso note that 2 is considered a below average stat, with anyone who works out at all likely to have 3 or more Body. A lot of the armour has ratings around 6, so that works out alright.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 02:20 PM

QUOTE (ornot)

Take your leather trenchcoat and fill the pockets with cans of beans, run around a bit and see how winded you feel. ^^

I've done that, as a matter of fact. (Don't ask why.)

I didn't feel any more winded than a similar rate of excercize in my leather trenchcoat without beans, nor did it encumber my movement any. And I'd really consider myself to have a Body start of 2 or 1, and probably the Infirm negative quality as well.

Posted by: ornot Jun 7 2006, 02:26 PM

I'd hazard a guess you're underestimating your own staying power ^^ After all, leather trench coats are pretty damned heavy, and I imagine you wear it a lot. For comparison see how much less encumbered you feel when not wearing it and running around (please note, I am not encouraging anyone to run around naked, with the possible exception of ShadowDragon, as that would be funny)

I'm very curious as to why you filled you trenchcoat pockets with cans of beans and ran around in the first place! Please, I must know!

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 02:33 PM

I woulden't call it running around, and trust me as big as I am? If anything a 2 in Bod is generous.

As to why I was running around with cans of beans... >_<

It was a family barbeque, and there was much food going around. My idiot of a cousin had taken about 12 huge cans of baked beans outside to the grill, not realizing you don't cook baked beans on a grill. So I went outside to take them back in to my uncle who was manning the stove. >_<

Posted by: Tarantula Jun 7 2006, 02:38 PM

Somehow, I wouldn't consider taking 12 cans of baked bins 'round back "running around" with them. Even if you ran the whole way, its hardly any distance at all.

Posted by: ornot Jun 7 2006, 03:54 PM

Awwww... leave the little guy alone!

I think encumberance rules are something that just has to be governed at GM discretion.

As for armour, if they didn't have any restrictions every character would run around being nigh bullet proof. I recall an incident when I was playing SR3 when we had a bullet proof troll. Body fitted armour + lined coat + magical armour spell = damage resistant TNs of 2 vs pretty much any weapon you care to mention. He stood there, bullets pinging off of him, hacking an electronic door while 2 guards shot at him with SMGs on full auto.

With the number of dice added by most armour, layering in SR4 would have a similar effect.

I do like the new system whereby armour converts damage that does not exceed it to stun. Cuts down on lengthy recuperation times.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 7 2006, 03:59 PM

I agree with limiting armor by body, to a degree. But it does seem a little extreme. I mean, with body 1 there is no armor that you can wear without encumbrance? That seems a little strict.

Posted by: ornot Jun 7 2006, 04:00 PM

A Body 1 runner can wear a leather jacket with no penalty. For all the good it'd do

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 7 2006, 04:02 PM

I stand corrected.

Posted by: SuperSpy Jun 7 2006, 04:03 PM

The only penalty to armor encumberance is to Agility and Reaction, right? So its not a matter of people feeling winded, it's a matter of bulky armor reducing one's finesse. When you watch a gymnast doing their routine, do they wear thick jeans and a heavy jacket? No. Could they do a lot of thier moves while wearing those? Probably. But they don't wear those becuase it's easier to do such things while wearing a leotard instead.

Now most female gymnasts probably have a Body of 1 or 2 I would guestimate. If you're a bigger person (i.e. more Body) and you also have high agility and reaction then you have trained your body to be still be flexible even with all that extra bulk - therefore it's not as big of deal when you add a bit of extra bulk on.

Hense, the encumberance rules make perfect sense to me.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 04:22 PM

Except they make it impossible to play a Shadowrunner properly. Because it impacts your reaction and shooting and dodging ability. I agree that layering should impose penalties, but not one set, for goodness sakes!

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 7 2006, 04:31 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

As much as it pains me, I concur. I ignore the armor encumberence rule unless they're relevant, such as layered armor. Otherwise, I assume armor is largely designed for normal range of motion.

However, if the guy in heavy armor is trying to somersault around...

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 04:35 PM

I don't need heavy armor, just a catsuit that will let me survive a round or two without becoming the splatzor.

Posted by: Lebo77 Jun 7 2006, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 7 2006, 11:22 AM)

Except they make it impossible to play a Shadowrunner properly. Because it impacts your reaction and shooting and dodging ability.

Impossible? Hardly.

Play a Hacker/Rigger or a mage comanding spirits, or a face doing the social thing and wear whatever armor you want. (Yes, the penilty applies to reacton, and therefore driving tests. This rule is stupid for people who are driving in full VR. Use Intuition instead.) So what if you are a little slower on the draw or worse at getting out of the way? The penilty only applies to things you are lousy at anyway. In a gunfight, go find some cover and put enough lead in the air to make them keep thier heads down. Leave the killing to the gunbummies.

[edit] Heck mages have the Armor spell. That does not require a specific body to use.

Posted by: Squinky Jun 7 2006, 04:37 PM

It does hit folk below the average 3 stat pretty hard, but orks and trolls are loving it, heh. I stand by liking the rule, but it does kind of make a bad situation worse, leaving you with pretty much no damage mitigation ability. Really though, if you are planning to be physical at all, you need a body of 3 at least. Body isn't just how tough you are, it's a measure of your physical fitness (A gymnast in my mind would need a body of 3-4 at least to stand up to all the training). A person with a body of 2 would in my mind have difficultys in armor designed for the average person.

Posted by: SuperSpy Jun 7 2006, 04:39 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

I don't need heavy armor, just a catsuit that will let me survive a round or two without becoming the splatzor.

I don't have my book in front of me. Is there currently any stats for such a suit in SR4?

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 7 2006, 04:50 PM

No.

I would probably give such a suit of armor 4 ballistic and 2 points of impact armor, but that's just me .

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 7 2006, 04:52 PM

Actually, I do have a lot of gun-bunnying mixed in with my hacking. 500 BP + solo-player campaign will do that. And for said catsuit, I was using the Chameleon Suit + helmet.

Posted by: SuperSpy Jun 7 2006, 04:57 PM

I wouldn't say that a chameleon suit is necessarily a catsuit. If it has kevlar plates in it then its not going to be completely flexable.

Remember that in Cannon Companion (3rd Ed.), the form fitting body armor had special rules when it came to armor stacking, so if a similar item is made available in Arsenal, it might have special rules as well.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 7 2006, 05:19 PM

Just for the record from personal experience.

In college I had a rainjacket/parka that could hold a 12 pack of beer in the pockets. After walking 6 blocks from campus to a house party I was definitely a little winded and ready to crack one open. Mind you in college when I tried this I was in pretty good shape (ah the good old days) I was still training pretty hard for both Hoops and Rowing which would under this sytem probably translate to a 2-3 body.

Posted by: Brahm Jun 7 2006, 05:30 PM

I hear you ShadowDragon8685, although I don't agree with all your issues on armor.

I've proposed to my GM a similar character, who is incidentally an NPC military pilot of an aircraft we hijacked. I don't know what the GM had written down for armor, we haven't had to shoot the pilot. Yet. It looks like me might actually show some compasion and just cut him loose since he can't really go back to his former employer now. Which is why I'm considering taking him over as a PC.

I initially had the character at a Body 2, although in the end I think I bumped it up to a 3. What I have currently requested is that he be wearing a jungle print/green Nomex flight suit (Fire 3, no Balistic or Impact armor) overtop of Half-Body Formfitting Armor. That's a CC item that covers torso, hips, and thights. Not in SR4 yet but I'll be very surprised if it doesn't show up in Arsenal in some form. Since armor layering doesn't work like it did I'm guessing that any item intended to allow multiple armor pieces will be statted like helmets and shields. So what I did was just use the Half-Body Formfitting Armor numbers converted to that format. Balistic/Impact of +3/+1. Although arguably it likely should get dropped to +2/+1 since the old layering effectively halved armor when you layered it.

Maybe they'll not allow layering of it and just leave it at a normal 3/1, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the custom tailored fit underoos where it becomes like second skin. Orthoskin and dermal sheathing still stacks after all. In any case for the Body 2 wimps right now there is Armor Clothing at B/I 4/0. Obviously not a lot of help in a fist fight, but it'll give you something to try keep your inards in when the bullets fly.

Unfortunately my situation is somewhat complicated by the fact that the GM apparently did up at least some of the stats for him already. So retconning would be a requirement, but not really that much since all the pilot has really rolled of import so far was Willpower to resist a spell. I find out by Saturday what he'll ok and what he won't, and what the options are. He did already do a bit of a veto on my idea for the sidearm. Well it was more like it was already selected but it hadn't been mentioned in-game yet. But it was definately along the lines of what I was thinking, a very compact SMG.

I personally would allow a custom chameleon suit with lesser armor or no armor at all. Expensive and not off the rack, but doable. But like you said you are now at the whim of the GM. Hope you chose well when selecting the people you play with.

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 7 2006, 05:36 PM

lets look at the options for various characters.

Body 1: leather jacket (2/2)
Body 2: Armor clothing (4/0)
Body 3: Armor vest, actioneer business clothes, cameleon suit, lined coat, urban explorer (this is the average consumer)
Body 4: Armor jacket, Camoflage suit
Body 5: Armor jacket+helmet, or full body armor.
Body 6: full body armor + helmet (12/10)
Body 7: armor jacket + Balistic Sheild (14/10, -1 all physical tests from sheild)
Body 8: armor jacket + helmet + balistic sheild (15/12), or FBA + Sheild.

So, if you have a body 1 or 2 guy, its clear that you cant take many hits in combat. body 3 has a lot of options, as thats the majority of the consumer base. the guys at body 5+ dont really have to worry about it unless they want to go out of their way to get a ton of armor.

generaly, your gun-bunnies will have a variety of options for armor. you need high-protection, or discrete style, or concealment, you go with a different option.

The average character in shadowrun will have body 3 and 6 balistic armor. thats 9 soak, for 3 hits on average. add in the average 3 reaction (which most players will have closer to 6), and you have damage mitigation at 4 boxes per hit. average attacker will have 8 dice less penalties, for 2 average hits, 1 after defenders reaction. so on average, a weapon will do DV -3 damage per shot to the mythical 'average' runner. and that is where combat is going to balance.

Body 1 will have 3 dice for soak with that jacket, meaning he takes DV -1 per hit. Body 2 will have 6, meaning DV -2 per hit. This translates into (DV-body) damge per average hit, with the system being skewed at the high-body end due to a lack of stronger armors for orks/trolls.

body 1 or 2 will drop in 3 pistol shots (even light pistol shots).
body 3 can take 5 shots from a heavy pistol.
body 4 can take about 10 hits from a heavy pistol.
body 5+, with enough armor, can shrug off heavy pistol shots from mooks.

We are working in a system, where any character who wants to can focus on defense, can be tough enough that most low-end mooks cant hurt them in combat. this allows for us to portray a bad-ass who can walk calmy through gunfire, while killing enemies with percise shots that always hit. some people want that. same person will either take cover or die quickly the moment an MG opens up with a full burst- thats realism sticking in its ugly head.

What the current encumberace rules do, is say that you can get an average soak equal to your body, or higher if you want a penalty greater than 1 per soak gained (-3/2 soak average). this creates a damage-mitigation mechanic for body, and it also says that higher body takes stun from stronger DV. this is an equipment-based mechanic, which means you need to keep up with SOTA.

a reaction penalty makes you easier to hit- -3 reaction for a +2 soak is a good deal in terms of mitigation, as you take less damage overall. the agility penalty meakes it harder for you to hit them, and a -3 there means one less hit, and one less damage to the enemy. so the two together means the fight takes a lot longer.

Posted by: Cang Jun 7 2006, 06:13 PM

Dropping in my 2, I was in the military, and wearing a kevlar vest all day got really heavy and uncomforable. I cant imagine a long jacket made of that stuff. I hope you have a personal cooling system inside your undies.. beacuse it is gonna get hot.

Posted by: coolgrafix Jun 7 2006, 07:04 PM

I'm curious as to how these rules are actually supposed to be read in the first place. How does the zeitgeist interpret the armor/encumbrance penalty rules? Read on for two differing interpretations.

SR4 page 149, under Armor and Encumbrance
-----------------------------------------
"Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of a character's armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modiier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that his Body is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body."

Consider the following two example characters from SR4...

=========
EXAMPLE 1
=========
Covert Ops Specialist (rules as written)
---------------------
Body: 2
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

Her Armor Jacket exceeds her Body x 2. We then determine how many points her Body is exceeded by...

Armor - Body = Exceeded Amount
8 - 2 = 6

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
6 / 2 = 3

Drone Rigger (rules as written)
------------
Body: 3
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

His Armor Jacket exceeds his Body x 2. We then determine how many points his Body is exceeded by...

Armor - Body = Exceeded Amount
8 - 3 = 5

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
5 / 2 = 3

Should this be interpreted as...

"If either of a character's armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modiier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that his Body x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body x 2."

Consider the same two example characters again...

=========
EXAMPLE 2
=========

Covert Ops Specialist (rules as meant?)
---------------------
Body: 2
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

Her Armor Jacket exceeds her Body x 2. We then determine how many points her Body x 2 is exceeded by...

Armor - (Body x 2) = Exceeded Amount
8 - 4 = 4

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
4 / 2 = 2

Drone Rigger (rules as meant?)
------------
Body: 3
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

His Armor Jacket exceeds his Body x 2. We then determine how many points his Body is exceeded by...

Armor - (Body x 2) = Exceeded Amount
8 - 6 = 2

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
2 / 2 = 1

Typical Armors (just for reference)
--------------
Armor Clothing: 4/0
Actioneer Business Clothes: 5/3
Armor Vest: 6/4
Armor Jacket: 8/6
Camouflage Suit: 8/6

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 7 2006, 07:09 PM

I am not sure what you are aiming at .

Posted by: Squinky Jun 7 2006, 07:16 PM

QUOTE (Cang)

Dropping in my

2, I was in the military, and wearing a kevlar vest all day got really heavy and uncomforable. I cant imagine a long jacket made of that stuff. I hope you have a personal cooling system inside your undies.. beacuse it is gonna get hot.

I've had to spend way to much time in bullet proof vests and stab vest also. Most of the time it was the damned stab vest, I had to wear that thing everywhere. It really was nothing compared to a "real" vest (it was a cloth and velcro outer with a flexible insert that was probably about a 1/4 inch thick), but it did restrict my movements, I could never really sit comfortably, and well, it just sucked. If I had to be a total nerd I would give stab vests a 0/3 armor rating (made to stab shanks really, they said it could stop knives, but ha ha, who are they fooling), or somewhere in there, so I could imagine how irratating an armor jacket would be....

Posted by: Brahm Jun 7 2006, 07:22 PM

@coolgrafix

Just don't exceed the limit, mm'kay?

It seems pretty clear that as written it is the former. Which is really nasty. Especially to high Body characters that exceed Body*2 by only a little bit. Maybe that is why they put it in that way? The later certainly does make it a lot tamer. A Body 2 character wearing an Armored Vest gains those extra 2 dice for soaking at the price of only 1 Reaction die.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 7 2006, 08:01 PM

I imagine armored jackets as being like modern military combat armor (in a jacket rather than a vest) with extra ballistic cloth covering the arms. There's some allowance for style, but the book describes them as being obviously armor. Once you figure in trauma plates, the combat armor of today usually weighs upwards of 25 pounds, without protecting the arms. I really don't have a problem with that slowing the "average" person down to the tune of one less die on Agility and Reaction.

The last time I wore a bulletproof vest, I was noticeably smaller. These days, I'm about 6'1", 215 lbs, and while not a total gym-monkey, I'm fairly fit... Body 4 would be a reasonable SR translation. The last time I threw on a chainmail shirt (which weighs about 30 pounds, pretty much the same as modern combat armor, and is much more flexible), I was definitely noticing how the added weight affected my movement. The fact that someone of "average" body will net a -1 from wearing an armored jacket seems pretty reasonable to me, especially once you figure in that it triples the number of dice they resist with using Impact, and nearly quadruples the number of dice they resist with using Ballistic.

Posted by: -X- Jun 7 2006, 10:09 PM

Warning, house rule alert!

I tend to run slightly more cinematic games than most, but I use the armor rules as written with one tiny (huge) alteration. For armor encumbrance purposes only I treat everyone as being body+1. It still puts a significant penalty on folks with low body, makes those with high body even more insane, but overall seems to make things a little smoother and a little less brutal for all the Body 2 pedestrians/grunts (There has to be plenty since Body 3 is just the average).

Posted by: Voran Jun 7 2006, 10:29 PM

QUOTE (SuperSpy)

Let's pause for a moment to marvel at the wonders of female gymnasts.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 7 2006, 11:11 PM

Seriously, I don't see the problem here. Take someone with body 2, stick them in an armored long coat or a vest, and they get a -1 to Agility and Reaction. What's so problematic or unbelievable about that? Body armor isn't exactly comfortable or light.

Posted by: Shadow Jun 8 2006, 12:28 AM

Even "light" body armor, like a Level I Kevlar vest is encumbering. I am not sure how much it weighs, but it is stiff and riggid. It makes hard just to sit down. The key here though is that you should make a character with 3 body, or suck up the penalty. Don't wine about not being physically fit enough to use body armor. Shadowrunning is hard, and only the fit survive.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 8 2006, 11:42 AM

QUOTE (Shadow)

Even "light" body armor, like a Level I Kevlar vest is encumbering. I am not sure how much it weighs, but it is stiff and riggid. It makes hard just to sit down.

If NIJ ballistic level I vests were made of modern materials (they aren't, as a rule, made at all these days), they would be very flexible and extremely light. The old level II (approx) vest I wore in the military had magazine pouches and very heavy camoflage covering, making it far stiffer, heavier and larger than modern concealable level III-A vests, but even I (MAX Body 2) could carry that without any real problems.

It may have slightly reduced my mobility beyond what simply carrying the ~3-3.5kg extra would have, but the difference wasn't particularly great. Had it been cut for concealability, I would hardly have noticed having it on unless I was doing gymnastics, or under extended physical stress where body heat would have been an issue.

When you get to the heavier forms of armor and those with greater coverage, though, I have no problems with even a "single layer" of those causing serious losses in mobility for those of below average fitness. Rigid armor is a pain in the ass, as is any armor covering the limbs. I also have no problem with Body being very important for everyone who expects to engage in lethal combat on a regular basis -- in fact I would quite gladly have it be the central physicall attribute for all such characters.

QUOTE (Voran)

Let's pause for a moment to marvel at the wonders of female gymnasts.

Since Body describes a character's general physical fitness, I'd say several female gymnasts are at least BOD 4. The really tiny ones from Eastern Europe and Asia who apparently have no bones might be 1s and 2s, though.

Posted by: SuperSpy Jun 8 2006, 12:50 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Since Body describes a character's general physical fitness, I'd say several female gymnasts are at least BOD 4.

Fair enough. And yet you still don't see them doing cartwheels and backflips in kevlar vests.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 8 2006, 01:19 PM

You would, if the audience taking potshots at you with handguns were a common occurrence in gymnastics. It would reduce their mobility slightly, even making some of the more outlandish maneuvers impossible (because it would reduce their ability to bend their torsos), but a 2kg flexible vest would absolutely not stop a person in that good a physical condition from performing something as simple as a cartwheel or backflip.

Posted by: Lebo77 Jun 8 2006, 02:07 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

And a Shadowrunner with an agility of 5, athletics of 5 and a specilization in gymnastics would be VERY capable of performing these relatively simple maneuvers (2 successes.. MAX for a backflip) with a 1, 2, 3, or even 4 die penalty.

Hell, I am 6 ft. tall and damn near 300 lbs. I get winded if I walk too fast up a flight of stairs and I can do a cartwheel or a round-off. I sometimes do cartwheels wearing a backpack with a waist strap. (backflips remain beyond me however).

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 8 2006, 02:09 PM

No disagreement there. I just felt SuperSpy's message overestimated the negative effect of light body armor on a person's mobility.

Posted by: coolgrafix Jun 8 2006, 02:20 PM

The issue for me isn't whether armor in real life slows people down. Sure it does. And it's fucking hot and uncomfortable.

The issue is how the rule is meant to be interpreted. Actually, the deeper issue is why the armor encumbrance rules still exist at all in SR4 since the whole point of the edition is to streamline obtuse rules. In all areas of the game reality simulation was sacrificed in order to streamline the rules... something I eventually agreed with in concept and now applaud. That this section of the rules didn't get trimmed is in my mind an oversight.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 8 2006, 02:29 PM

Body armor makes backflips more difficult. Fine. I'll agree with that. I mean, I don't know, but it sounds pretty darn reasonable.
But isn't this penalty applied to all agility tests? Does an armor vest make it more difficult to shoot a pistol? That seems like more of a strech to me.

Posted by: SuperSpy Jun 8 2006, 02:38 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

No disagreement there. I just felt SuperSpy's message overestimated the negative effect of light body armor on a person's mobility.

I'm not saying that wearing armor stops you cold. I said in my original post that a gymnast would still be capable of performing much of her routine in armor. It's just that armor, even if flexible (hell, even just bulky clothing), is going to provide some level of hinderance or added difficulty. Hense the encumberance penalty.

And I don't expect the mechanic to model real life perfectly, but the rule approximates the situation close enough that I can suspend my disbelief or whatever.

I think one of the big reasons that the encumberance is designed this way is so that Body doesn't turn into a dump stat. Look how few skills are based off of Body. And unless you're a troll or an ork, it's a lot easier to bulk up on armor than it is on Body. If we didn't have the encumerance mechanic as written, there wouldn't be nearly as much reason to buy a Body score of 3 or more.

Posted by: SuperSpy Jun 8 2006, 02:43 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

Does an armor vest make it more difficult to shoot a pistol?

This is the one part of the encumberance penalty that doesn't make as much sense to me. Personally, if I were designing the game I would strongly consider making firearms Intuition based rather than Agility based.

On the other hand, keep in mind that in Shadowrun combat (especially if you envision it cinematically), you're not just standing still and firing at a still target. You're entire body is constantly moving, swinging around to follow targets or acquiring new ones.

Posted by: Squinky Jun 8 2006, 04:11 PM

Hey, you can have an intuition based gunslinger....Just make them blind, heh.

When doing firearm drills (crouching, laying on my gut, shooting around cover) with my old Glock in my vest, I would have preffered to not have it on. I could see it translating to a -1 die or so in a game.

Posted by: 6thDragon Jun 8 2006, 04:35 PM

I have spent a significant amount of time wearing body armor in Iraq and for an additional 5 years before that, and I can tell you the heavier stuff can severely hinder your ability to move around. That being said, it was always those with greater physical strength who were affected less. In my games my group has always houseruled that armor limits are linked to strength instead of body. We did the same in SR3 and were sad to see that even with changing it in SR4 they didn't get it right. Just my 2 In SR3 it made no sense why an orc or troll (lower quickness but higher strength) would be effected more than an elf (higher quickness but lower strength). I still don't see why someones endurance and fitness would have a greater impact on their ability to remain mobil in heavy armor than someones overall physical strength. I can understand over time someone with higher body would not become tired as quickly, but I still think strength is the better choice.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 8 2006, 04:39 PM

Maybe instead of comparing armor to Bodyx2 it should be compared to Body+Strength. How's that for a house rule?

Posted by: Brahm Jun 8 2006, 05:01 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jun 8 2006, 11:39 AM)

Maybe instead of comparing armor to Bodyx2 it should be compared to Body+Strength. How's that for a house rule?

That I could get all over. Not just for "realism", but Str is likely the least represented Attribute at this point. Not quite to dump stat status, because I don't think SR4 really has one of those, but pretty close. Having your armor limit based on it is a significant boost to it's importance.

@coolgrafix I think the text is quite clear on how you calculate the penalty, and like I mentioned before I understand why they do it that way.

As for why there is a penalty at all, the encumberance calculation isn't done that often. If it was based on your injury status, or something that changed round to round, or changed over time or something I'd definately take issue with it.

As it is it seems pretty straight forward for Balistic and Impact armor. However it is very unclear how the armor enhancements are suppose to figure into it. I know that has been discussed here before, and there was no clear concensus on exactly how or if they are suppose to be taken into account.

Posted by: SuperSpy Jun 8 2006, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

Maybe instead of comparing armor to Bodyx2 it should be compared to Body+Strength. How's that for a house rule?

Yeah, as much as I try not to house rule, I might just steal that.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 8 2006, 05:31 PM

Strong people usually have endurance, and people with good endurance are usually strong. My impression of the basing of armor maxes off Bodyx2 has always been that it's not a case of "can you lift 30 pounds easily," it's a case of "can you carry 30 pounds for 8 hours and not care?"

Basing it off Str + Body seems just as good of a way of judging overall physical condition.