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Posted by: Witness Jun 8 2006, 12:06 PM

So I was chatting with a friend the other day (yes, there was alcohol involved) and the idea of post-2070 world war came up.

We didn't think it through all that much, beyond the fact that various megacorps might perhaps make a fortune off the arms race and that it might make for an interesting campaign setting, with shadowrunners doing all sorts of covert ops that contribute to such a war starting or ending, or help to forge or disrupt alliances. I guess it would the proper nation states that go at it, with some megas taking sides but others sitting in the middle like arms-dealing Switzerlands.

So I thought I'd throw the question up here for your ideas.

It's fairly easy to think of reasons why such a war could never happen (and I'm sure lots of people will post them), but... supposing it could and did- what might trigger it, what might the sides look like, what would a post-2070 world war look like, and what might happen?

Posted by: Ancient History Jun 8 2006, 12:11 PM

Lofwyr burps and incinerates the Pope, blames it on Aden and starts Euro Wars 2.0.

Posted by: Witness Jun 8 2006, 12:24 PM

It's always hard to tell if you're being serious!

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 8 2006, 12:49 PM

Well, the problem is that in SR, national governements are too weak to start big wars, except for a handful only. The strongest political entity is the Corporate Courts, followed by the Magas, then nations.

So since all the megas are basically on the same team, get struck down hard if they start too much trouble (an Omega Order can really ruin your day), and, most importantly, care only about profit, a starting a global war seems unlikely.

That being said, lets look at the exceptions:

Amazonia, Aztlan-Aztechnology.

Amazonia is currently (IMO) the world's strongest governement, in terms of unity. It could technically, forcing a bit the imagination here, call on some allies such as other Awakened nations like the Tirs.

Aztlan-Aztechnology very narrowly almost did cause a world war, since they are evil bastards and their first concern isn't profitability.


Soooo, if a world war started, these two would have something to do with it. Maybe Amazonia, Aztlan's eternal rival, gets wind of a serious Horror importing scheme the Azzies plan on undertaking with the notion of fuck subtility. They then run a pre-emptive strike. Massive destruction ensues. People are forced to take sides as the thing spirals out of control. And while at it, of course, old vendettas get settled under the excuse of 'helping out' their chosen allies.

Either that or a rogue AI launches all of the UCAS's nukes at various people, causing retaliation. Oh wait, that's Fallout.

Posted by: Cang Jun 8 2006, 01:01 PM

Its easy to start a world war. Country 1 claims land from country 2 (1 my be lead by a crazy leader or not).. Country 3 supports country 2 in its defence (kinda like kuwait). Now country 4 supports country one in their claim of country 2s land. Then its a big ol' buddy country supporting the other, thinking of how they are going to split up their enemies land among themselves. A perfect thing would be like japan claiming back that meta indonesian island (the name escapes me) or Russia goes after their lost lands, UCAS goes after CAS or the NAN. Also remember that war can start with the silliest thing. Remember when President Fox of Mexico made that remark that mexicans are at least willing to work, unlike blacks. Well the US got really mad... with the right incentive and provocation, that could of been a war.

Posted by: Witness Jun 8 2006, 01:27 PM

Yeah I like your thinking Backgammon. I agree that would be the perfect 'seed' for a World War, and could easily spiral out of control as Cang suggests, though I struggle to think who would side with Aztlan.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 8 2006, 01:31 PM

You just hire a Bosnian shadowrunner to kill an Austrian Prince.

Posted by: booklord Jun 8 2006, 03:13 PM

The American Conflict
------------------------
Aztechnology launches several nukes into Amazonia. ( The nuclear attack was launched when unknown subversives seized control of the missile silos ) Amazonia launches a full invasion of Aztlan led by the Great Dragon Sirrurg. Chile, Argentina and the rest of South AMerica become involved in the conflict as Amazonia forces march across national borders to attack Aztechnology facilities throughout South America.

Japanese Imperial Marines return to Peru to defend the nation against Amazonia. Though Amazonia does not invade Peru, border conflicts are common and a number of paranormal-beasts wreak havok across the countryside.

Meanwhile the Pueblo nation having recently revoked Aztechnology's license to business there ( again ) moves to have NAN declare the nation and its corp as banned throughout NAN. Things are made worse when anti-Aztechnology protesters are massacred by outside an Aztechnology facility in Algonkian Manitoo as well as multiple terrorist attacks in Denver which are linked to the pro-Aztlan movement there. The other NAN nations are skeptical but agree to the ban due by considerable cash gifts from Pueblo. Aztechnology resists and NAN military forces forcibly evict the corp from NAN territory. This results severe border tension between Pueblo and Aztlan.

With Aztlan already reeling from its conflict with Amazonia, CAS moves to retake the parts of Texas which it lost. Peblo follows suit by "liberating" San Deigo. In a surprise move Pueblo offers to help Tir Tairngire with its financial problems if it should ally itself with Pueblo. Tir Tairngire joins the conflict.

President Colloton begins her mission to rescue Calfree by occupying San Franscio and Central Valley ( the above ground parts ) with UCAS Troops backed by Ares. ( and covertly by Aztechnology ) The troops are met with much enthusiasm by a public wracked by fear of the new Pueblo-Tir Tairngire alliance. An anti-occupation movement begins in Los Angellos and San Deigo against the Pueblo.


The European Conflict
--------------------------

The railroad link connecting Russia to Vladistock is destroyed at several key locations forcing Russia to commit to move large numbers of military assets to counter the Yakut. Oddly enough the Yakut weren't responsible for the railroad's destruction. But the awakened nation is quick to take advantage.

A islamic radical movement explodes across the middle east following multiple assassinations. ( including the Caliph of Arabia ) Following a series of terrorist attacks ( and a tip that a major terrorist group is about to launch a biological weapon attack ) Israel invades Beirut. The radical islamic movement becomes a full jihad.

The anti-Lowfyr alliance in Europe score their first major economic victory against Saeder Krupp stealing away one of its subsidiaries. Tensions run high in the shadows throughout Europe. And at the worst possible time, terrorist attacks hit multiple vital Saeder Krupp facilities. ( including the nuking of Saeder Krupp prime in Rhine RHur ) Initial evidence points to the anti-Lofwyr alliance and the dragon enraged orders bloody retribution. But evidence comes to light showing that an independent terrorist group was responsible. Anti-Lofwyr ( and in extenstion anti-Saeder Krupp ) rallies spread across Europe.

Saeder Krupp is now reeling from events in Russia, events in the Middle East, the initial economic hit from the anti-Lofwyr alliance ( most of whom are dead martyrs at this point ), the damage of the terrorist attacks, and now a publicity nightmare. The other European corps smell blood and begin stealing S-K subsidiaries and market share. Thus begins the great European Corp War.



The African Conflict
---------------------------

With much of the world embroiled in conflict, noone is able to act when a massive, awakened army emerges from the hidden jungles of Madagascar led by elves of tremendous magical skill. Moving at incredible speed and seemingly unstoppable the army traveling on magical airships conquers most of southern Africa in a very short time. They then set their eyes on the rest of Africa. The Theran empire is born again.

Of course the folks behind the Theran empire played a major role in orchestrating the events which started the major conflicts in Europe and the Americas. With world's major military forces otherwise occupied can anything stop the new Theran Empire from conquering all of Africa?




Whew!!! So we've got 2 megacorps under seige. Conflict erupting across Europe, Russia, North America, South America, the Middle East and Africa. And finally the return of the Theran Empire determined to take the entire continent of Africa as its own. World War SR4 has begun!


---------------------------------------------------------

Basically to start a World War in SR4 you need some organization which wants to start one. If the new Theran empire is too radical a departure, it might be some massive terrorist organization that is simply trying to start world chaos. Alamais might be a real good instigator. There are several examples of armed conflicts which would erupt if someone just pressed the right buttons. If some organization decided to press the buttons on several of these potential armed conflicts at the same time then the megacorps wouldn't be able to keep up. World War SR4 would begin.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 8 2006, 03:19 PM

Posted by: The ubbergeek Jun 8 2006, 03:34 PM

Cross is still the natural ennemy of Ares, Cross and the ARes guy hated their guts, albeit Cross took quite an hit when it was relocated to AA. Now, localy, they may be helpfull in a coalition, an dif promised to grow stronger again and parts of Ares's empire...

Posted by: Witness Jun 8 2006, 03:42 PM

Well I've got to take my hat of to booklord. The Neo-Theran Empire exploding across Africa is a brilliant coup de grace (though a little bit of a maguffin if you're going to blame them for all aspects of the war). I'd for one would love to see a really powerful united (and mysterious) African empire take center stage in Shadowrun.
If I have a criticism- and this is pretty much a matter of personal taste- it's that the wars of the different continents could do to be tied together a little bit more. It doesn't feel quite enough like a 'world war' if the conflicts are so compartmentalized. You know?

Stevebugge makes a good point about 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', I think. I can see some mileage in the idea of 'Awakened nations' vs the rest, though I can't imagine what could pull them all onto the same side.

Posted by: Thorn Black Jun 8 2006, 03:54 PM

Is global conflict what Shadowrun is about though? I dunno, it just doesn't sit right with me, imo..

Posted by: booklord Jun 8 2006, 04:27 PM

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 8 2006, 05:32 PM

I've got one character who is moving more and more in to the fold of the "Sons of the Alamo" (or whatever the name of that Texas based let's got to war with Aztlan to reclaim San Antonio group is called). There's another group that would certainly be working to pile on to Aztlan if the opportunity presented itself (or was developed)

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 8 2006, 06:01 PM

What about the Islamic Unity Movement? Seems like Ibn Eisa, if he could get everyone under the movement's umbrella, would have quite a power bloc to exercise.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 8 2006, 06:29 PM

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 8 2006, 06:44 PM

Posted by: GB1 Jun 8 2006, 07:37 PM

"i don't know what WW3 will be like, but WW4 with be fought with sticks and stones"
- Albert Einstein

Posted by: Voran Jun 8 2006, 08:44 PM

You find some place/country that has resources you want (oricalchum, daisies, oil, whatever) and convince your populace that you've been attacked by that country, justifying a 'counter attack' on them

Btw, I'm not trying to make a social commentary on current situations. I'm just saying, with the megacorp mindset in SR, it becomes even more possible

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jun 9 2006, 01:33 AM

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 9 2006, 03:25 AM

I'm sorry, I have to giggle when I see Amazonia being mentioned as a "world power" or being considered anything more serious than a pipe dream. they have 0 capital, no industry on a scale that is required for a city to sustain itself, let alone a sprawl or a nation. Amazonia is a half-assed attempt at neo-environmentalism run amok in politics and it fails miserably. The reason why radical environmentalism fails is because without the ability to produce goods, no nation can sustain itself. It's freaking illegal to cut down a tree, kill a marmut or dig in the dirt, how exactly is any one in amazonia producing a profit?

Right, metahuman testing, that'll last for about 5 minutes.

In my games, Amazonia wa attempted, failed miserably and imploded under it's own suck.

Posted by: booklord Jun 9 2006, 05:49 AM

Posted by: mfb Jun 9 2006, 06:27 AM

Amazonia sounds like what the Tirs tried to be (and were, for a while).

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Jun 9 2006, 02:07 PM

As noted above I think the only way world war can exist is if Azland starts it. Right now they are rebuilding after an unsuccessful civil war in the Yucatan and the Omega order from SR3. Once they are back up to power I think they may go after Amizonia (and more specifically Hualpa). This will draw in other nations wanting to capitalize on the instability formed in the area. Most of the fighting will be in South/Central America. Aden may take this distraction to openly crush the NIJ and Lofwyr will use this opportunity to invade the middle east. The dragons of the world will end up being the major players (and winners) in this world war.

Posted by: JongWK Jun 9 2006, 02:49 PM

Posted by: mfb Jun 9 2006, 03:07 PM

Metropole is one of SR's best-kept secrets, unfortunately. it's supposed to be one of the world's biggest cities, in SR... but nobody's ever heard of it. i'd heard there was supposed to be a section on it in SoLA, but, well.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 9 2006, 03:33 PM

It's a myth like that lost city of gold. or the lost city of Drop Bears (which isn't actually a myth, but it's more of a staging base for Drop Bear world conquest, oops, I've said too much. ulp!)

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 9 2006, 03:50 PM

How do you get a World War started?

Simple.


Aztech or Fuhrer Lofwyr decides that those Ares sons-of-a-bitches are cutting into the arms and equipment industry too much, and bribes/begs/calls favors/mind-controls the Corporate Court into calling an Omega on Ares. Normally, this would be the end of it, however with the CAS and UCAS both getting the majority of their arms from Ares, and aware that if Ares goes down, they become beholden to the German Dragon or MexiCrackLand, decide to publicly say that they will not allow any actions against Ares Macrotech within their borders. The rest of the corps ignore this, but pollitical machinations that have been hidden come to front, and the UCAS and CAS re-unify, riding a wave of high public approval generated through whatever means the DM deems fit. The U.S.A. is back on the scene and pissed at what they see as an invasion. National soldiers are dispatched to help Ares Firewatch defend their emplacements within the continental United States. Meanwhile, the NAN, Aztlan, and Carribean Leauge just took a major "Woah, what the fuck?! They're all prime targets for further conflict if this Neo-United States of America movement continues. However, the Carribean Leauge, smelling a chance at power and glory, actually join the new Union, thus becoming a cluster-fuck. England welcomes the U.S. back onto the scene, and likewise orders other corporations to cease activities against Ares Macrotech upon British soil. This of course is ignored. Back in the West, Tir Tairngire, finding themselves resource-strapped, have an offer extended to them; join the new Union. The elves refuse, but when the NAN march over them on their way to attack the U.S., they quickly realize that strength in numbers is the only thing that's going to save them here. Aztechnology finds itself in the unenviable position of having only the NAN, which never much liked them, as the only thing resembling an ally on the American continents, and since they're not actually any damn good at fighting a real land war, only gassing rebels, find themselves quickly getting smashed back into the homelands by an emerging superpower.

*gasp*


In England, things aren't going so well. S-K has more main combat training that Aztland, and Lofwyr got pissy. He got the Corporate Court to issue an Omega Order on the sovreign Nation of England... Aaand that was the last straw.

Every sovreign, non-Megacorp nation, just realized that if they let that stand, they'll never mean a damn thing again. The English Isle comes under a massive attack, and is swiftly reinforced by the military of every nation in range and with units to spare. Zurich Orbital is shot out of the sky by a massive wave of nukes from the American continent, and the corporate court with it. The shit is on as the the militant Megacorps and their pet nations get embroiled in a conflict with the remaining Nations that still have enough steam left to put up a fight.


Okay, maybe not SR canon, or even SR canon-likely, but I've always thought that the whole "Megacorporate Superpower" idea coulden't last very long in coexistance with real National powers.

Posted by: bigdrewp Jun 9 2006, 04:06 PM

Yeah, not very Shadowrunny, but I miss the U.S.A. so I like it.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 9 2006, 04:55 PM

I've come up with one other scenario, not quite as detailed so if anyone wants to run with it and post details that would be cool.

Basically the rules of civil conduct between the Great Dragons, strained after the contest called by Ghostwalker in Survival of the fittest continue fraying as Hestaby and some of the more pro-Metahumanity reformist Greats continue to butt heads with Great Dragon Traditionalists like Aden, Ryumyo, and Lung. Others not so stridently on one side or the other pick sides based on convenience, traditional rivalries, and individual machinations. Enough of the rules survive initially however that the various Dragons begin their conflict through proxies, Organized Crime Syndicates, Corporations, and puppet states. Ultimately the whole system breaks down and there is open fighting among the Dragons and their organizations on a global scale, and other entities like the Tirs and the few unattached Megas are drawn in to try to protect their own interests.

Posted by: mfb Jun 9 2006, 04:58 PM

and then the French are like "fire ze missiles!", and the missile guys are all "but i am le tired," and France says "okay, then take a nap. THEN FIRE ZE MISSILES!"

and meanwhile, some asteroid is like "whoah, fuck that."

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 9 2006, 07:46 PM

heres the trick- the people running both the megacorps and the courts are smart enough not to start a war they will lose. the dragons will not start a war, as it means they hurt themselves.

What we minght see, is some idiots getting ahold of a nuclear lauch code. a technomancer with sprites, hacking missle silos.... thats scary isnt it? 1950's era technology versus the most advanced tech known to man... and if one side launches, everyone starts screaming about it... and launching a counterstrike. WWIII, global thermonuclear war.

and why would they do this? the bugs LIKE the nukes. and the roach shamens can make good mr johnsons, when it comes to hiring idiots to end the world. heck, maybe the horrors like the nukes too, if they exist anymore.

so we get a huge mess. a plauge of new ghouls, radioactive wastelands, a new food riot among the survivors... and a world where shadowrunners are the best last hope for the survival of mankind. (okay, maybe not that last over-the-top bit).

the only other way to start a global war, is to use a new technology that would destroy everyone. I forget what novel had this, but there was a secret tech that allowed remote spying on all computer traffic. it would make all computer files 'public' to anyone who had the device. something like that.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jun 10 2006, 02:57 AM

Posted by: Grinder Jun 10 2006, 01:54 PM

Or Deadlands: Hell On Earth.

Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 10 2006, 07:24 PM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 10 2006, 07:28 PM

Posted by: Nidhogg Jun 10 2006, 08:21 PM

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 10 2006, 08:56 PM

Posted by: boskop-albatros Jun 12 2006, 08:20 AM

I'm Back......(Yes it's been awhile)

These are all good ideas but I've had some of my own running around my head for awhile now

1: North American Reunion: The prievious senario about a UCAS/CAS Reunion was basicly the way in would happen if it started in the East but there is also the the possiblity it could start in the west (AND if it was the rightkind of revolution at least a GOOD persentage of the NAN would go along with it)-adding in the Caribbean League would make things very interesting
Basicly if a: TRANSRACIAL/TRANSMETA-USAONIAN,USAESE,FREDE-FREEDONIAN,UNINIAN,CONCORDIAN,REMEMBERANCER,-LIBRATARIANITE-MILITIA-ITE MOVEMENT WOULD START IN ANY OF THE WILDLANDS OF NORTHAMERICA (or better most or all of them) They probably could reunite north america at this point

This could start if any of the Politicaly Indepentant Militias got pushed into the NAN and HAD TO cut a Deal with the STC BECAUSE THEY FOUGHT FOR THE INDIANS RIGHT BEFORE THE CONSTITUTION-SO NOW THE PRESENT UCAS GUM'MENT IS ILLIEGAL

These guys could start anywhere on the continent-it would involve somefaction in NAN allying with them-figuring that the only way they-the Indians (Or First Americans if you perfer) can get more is by cutting a deal with the most radical outcasts of the Old American Society (Caucasian or Black) and Any and ALL Cultually Mixed Racial Groups of the Old American Society North Of Mexico And probably Anti-Aztlaner True Mexicans Too; Also Question Are their any Metis Left?-I always hated the hatchet job they got in Native American Nations Vol 2, And hell-What about Mestee Tri-Racial Southerners and the Ramapoughs of New Jersy Too
The other radicals would be Religous radicals of the Amero-Revisonal Christian kind-Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventists, ILDS (Big Love Non-Pervert Polygamists), Old-Style Armstrongian World Wide Church of God, and of Course The Church of Jesus Christ Universal and Triumphant (I hope They Cut a deal with the NAN for their Montana Bunkers)
After them World Come the OLD-NEW LEFT HIPPY (PINKSKIN) MILITA, Then Afro American Groups Like The Newabian/Yamasse Nation, Black Muslims And Radical Bloods/Crips-Can't forget Biker Gangs,Radical MetalHeads/RivitHeads/Punkrockers And Militant Pagans


The best spots out west would be somewhere in the north central canadian backcounty (A-M and Atha), plataue Country( S-S) and Pueblo/Aztlan Border; Liberate Apacheria!-Link this with the CAS and a Texas Liberation and the Azzies with have a Tough Time

Ok done, I will return

Posted by: Muskie Jun 12 2006, 08:37 AM

I don't know about a World war, But I do know that Hestaby (and her loyal army of Technomancers) could destroy the planet in about 12 seconds.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 12 2006, 08:43 AM

Posted by: Witness Jun 12 2006, 09:14 AM