Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Squinky Jun 8 2006, 09:30 PM

Hi all.

I recently decided to run a SR4 game because my previous GM kinda stopped running SR3, and we can't get him going. So I thought I would give it a try, and posted a thread here asking folks what they thought were good street level rules.

My thought process was that street level would let me start us out in a place like the barrens, and let me as a GM gradually get deeper into the new matrix thing....and avoid having to deal with over the top characters and crap like that. I set up some rules from an online game wiki I saw, (limited essence loss to 3, magic to 3 also, limited availability to 8, stuff like that) but it didn't really turn out right.

My PC's were an Ork sammy with a shotgun, a gunbunny adept, and an elf trickster shaman. This is where I screwed up I think, I allowed one skill to be at 4, while all other needed to be 3 or lower. So of course the gun characters got 4 on their weapon of choice, and then specialized and got smartlinks. Right there, street level is gone.

The shaman of course got screwed, (magic of 3, plus a lvl one power foci) and was at one point mocked by an elf hater, and cast a stunbolt at him. This guy was a gangmemeber statwise. The bolt was resisted twice, and the ganger laughed at him, called him a pussy, and walked away. I'm not sure how to even things out for this character without dropping a lvl 3 power focus on him, allowing him to spend money for karma to up his magic or what.

But on to my second question (how to even out the characters was the first). I GMed a run involving breaking into a manufacturing building in the barrens to get a microchip. Pretty creative I know, but it was my first run and I wanted it to go smoothly. The problem came when I used the stats for the normal lonestar/security guy. The gun characters totally hosed them, especially the shotgun wielding ork, sometimes she would off them 3 at a time with her flechette rounds. Again, when the shaman got actually got to attack, his spells fizzled every time.

This is where I started screwing up. I started giving the next group of guards helmets, and then upgraded to SMG's, and made them have good cover, still it was too easy. So, as the night was getting pretty late, I ended the session on a cliff hanger. The characters bypassed a maglock to enter the room with the microchip, and a man with two cyber arms, an ak-97 and two cybered rottweilers was near the chip, and behind him, a large group of katana weilding armored men....

Yeah, seriously, it must have been late because I don't know what the hell I was thinking...I didn't have any idea where to go from there, but wow...

I've thought of making them a street gang looking to steal this microship also, (a BTL) and going from there, but meh, dosen't feel right. I've also considered making the katana weilders spirits of man, to help the shaman feel more involved....Any wacky ideas? Or better yet, good ones?

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 8 2006, 09:36 PM

Don't allow them to specialize over the limit you have set. This was the house rule we set up at my SR4. In fact, you may want to discourage them from specializing all together at Chargen and make it something that is developed from playing (such as the gunbunny using an SMG more than any other automatic, etc.) And maybe set your magic limit to 4, and remind your shaman he can still buy foci for particular areas instead of the all around power focus. (Sure, that Rating 1 PF gives you a 1 on almost everything, but this spellcasting one costs less and gets you more dice).

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 8 2006, 09:42 PM

If your players are breaking your game by throwing waaaay too many dice, ask them to respec their characters to bring them more in line with what you had envisioned (essentially, lose a few dice). One way to do this would be to establish a maximum POOL amount (basically, if the character throws more than X dice on a skill, he's got too much going into it). You might have better luck asking the gunbunny to not play an adept... their dice pools always get aggravating when they decide to blow out a particular skill.

The absolute best way you've got to set the power level of a campaign is to talk with the players during character generation and make sure they're balanced with relation to each other, and the stuff you're going to be hitting them with. In my games, characters aren't "fixed" until they've been played for a couple of sessions at least, during which time players are allowed to make changes if they run them by me, and I'm able to suggest changes to the player to keep them more in line with the rest of the group. Makes life good for everyone.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 8 2006, 10:10 PM

magic 3, spellcasting 4, specialisation (combat spells) and a spellcasting focus should bring your shaman up to par with the others if he wants to be tossing around combat spells. add in an appropriate totem if you are willing to let him redesign from scratch. certainly, it should be better than most people's spell defense, which should really only be maybe 4 dice or so anyways (isn't it just one attribute? honestly, how much spell defense do your mooks have anyways?).

also, liberal use of overcasting is good, in this case, as are spirits.

and remember, this is shadowrun... sometimes, you need something other than just blowing stuff up. have him drop a couple of appropriate health spells instead of combat spells (giving someone 2 or 3 IPs for example), manipulation spells (influence on the guards so they think you're allowed in, or invisibility so they can't see you, that kind of thing), and so forth.

and on that note, he may want some sustaining foci also....

Posted by: Brahm Jun 8 2006, 10:19 PM

We play that Smartlink gives an fixed +2 boost to your Initiative result when the action is used to fire the SLed weapon, along with the ability to eject or change fire select as a Free Action. Also allows the much improved air burst scatter on grenades. But no extra aiming dice. So the best they can do is add a laser sight for +1 die (remember that mist, smoke, fog, etc. will limit the distance or totally thwart the laser sight).

It seems to work well.

But other than that, just ask your players to respect the intent. And make sure to outline the intent.

Oh, and Magic 3 is too low. Magic 4 for sure.

Posted by: Serbitar Jun 8 2006, 10:26 PM

1st flechette is broken (as is exex as is sticknshock), use one of the many house rules to fix ammo
2nd give the guards specialisations and smartung, too. this costs nothing and they will become much more powerful without changing the powerlevel. furthermore: give them gel or sticknshock ammo (but be aware that it is broken) and let them percieve and think guards are not just cannon fodder. Use cameras.
3rd try to not add more guards on the fly, decide beforehand how important the chip is and think about the resulting defenses, this is shadowrun, not a fantasy game where you send in wave after wave of enemies. let them defeat a scenario.
4th tell the shaman that he can summon spirits, go into astral space and use other spells than combat spells
5th maybe just let the katana wielders be holographs or something to get rid of them

I ran a street level campain for 1 year (9 month SR3 rules 3 month sr4 rules) with no problems, but I think this needs an experienced GM, as most of the time things have to be improvised. Real "runs" shouldnt be very numerous for gang members. Its more about defending your turf, getting the money from people in your turf, sell drugs, kick the shit out of rival gangs without goign into maja gangwars and such . . .

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 8 2006, 10:39 PM

Squinky I think you just need to reconsider what "being street" means for your campaign. Crappy gear? Lowly skilled players? No rep so job offers are limited? Probably some combination of those things. Serbitar summed it up nicely:

Posted by: Squinky Jun 8 2006, 10:57 PM

Yeah, I see that now. I've approached my players about doing a do-over, letting them make their characters with the standard bps and go from there. It really is harder to do street level as a new GM, you have to modify a lot.

To be fair on the shaman, I was just describing his combat ability, which he complained about. He did cast a good illusion which helped distract the cameras and guards, and he did buff the ork with armor, and his detect life spell saved their butt too. It's jus the combat that he lacked in.

The mooks he attacked had a will of 2 ( i made it lower) and they still got more successed than him.

I guess when I say street level game, I really mean Green runner game. I was wanting the characters to grow a little more than normal, but now kinda don't like how its worked.

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jun 8 2006, 11:00 PM

You can get out of the ninja cyborg rottweiler hose-up by making the whole scene an illusion spell or hologram designed to fool the PCs.

First thing: you can fudge the dice, you know. Don't roll them where the PCs can see.

Second thing: no security operation in the world just feeds troops piecemeal into a meatgrinder like that. It doesn't make any sense, it's a recipe for failure. The security forces should be better led than that.

Third thing: the players can succeed, you know. Nothing is more irritating to players than a GM who says, "Uh, okay, the first two go down...but here come four more! With, uh, lasers! And helmets!" You are not out to get the PCs.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 8 2006, 11:08 PM

If you want gritty, don't fudge the dice. Roll them out in the open so the whole world knows what's going on. It makes combat a lot deadlier, but that's what gritty is (partially).

Posted by: Squinky Jun 8 2006, 11:14 PM

Yeah, I was really trying to find the sweet spot for opposition. They were all so easy, it was nuts. The gun buny was offing two per combat turn, and the shotgun ork....It was a massacre.

The security was a chainlinked building with barb wire and rotating cameras. The characters cast an illusion of (I'm not making this up) a hot elf chick that attempted to distract the guards. The ork has hearing enhancements so could hear the guards reactions and they tailored the illusion to fit those comments. All said and done the guy running the cameras was checking out the elf chick by the time the characters cut a hole in the fence and snuck in the back. I rolled for infiltration on all of them near the cameras, (allowed this because the operator was distracted by the elf illusion) and the shaman set off the alarm.

They broke in and met opposition, but the rest of the opposition had orders to guard their respective areas, so they would do that, or find ambush spots and lie in wait on the pc's. This wasn't a D+D dungeon, I tried for realism. The advance in gear happened because it wasn't fun for the players, I wanted some left for the shaman.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 8 2006, 11:22 PM

Also, remind your players that even if they aren't reflex enhanced (via ware, drugs or magic) they can still get more initiative passes through the use of Edge.

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jun 8 2006, 11:23 PM

Someone's made this point, i think, but this run isn't "street level". It's a penetration of a secure facility with something like ten or more security personnel on-site.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 8 2006, 11:36 PM

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 8 2006, 11:47 PM

Visibility modifiers are hell when properly heaped on.
Also, ensure that your guards are using cover, smoke when appropriate, and give them emplaced pain inducers. One of the better combos out there is a pain inducer on the drone tripod, 4k and you have dice pool sapping at your finger tips. plus, it gives the hacker something do during a fire fight.
Also, nothing says the mage can't pick up a shotgun, a pair of glasses with a smartlink and start having some fun as well.

Posted by: Valentinew Jun 9 2006, 12:18 AM

I'm currently playing in a campaign that sounds like the sort of thing you wanted to set up. None of the characters have actually been 'Runners before, so we're playing them very green. The nice part of that is, none of us have played SR in years, so this is giving us time to re-acquaint ourselves with the setting & the system.

What you described in your first post sounded very familiar. We, too, had a Sam & a gun-bunny adept who had maxed out their gun-wielding mojo. I think the Sam started out rolling something like 16-18 dice on a single shot. Now, granted, these two are formidable in combat...but half of Shadowrun is the legwork.

We also have a shaman adept & me, a technomancer, in the group, as well as an actual doctor. Now, none of the three of us is very helpful during combat (although I'm getting better now that I scored a Doberman drone), but for legwork, healing, distraction, & Matrix cover, we're the ones who do the work & get stuff done, 'cause, frankly, the other two can't.

As for formidable opponents, our GM started us out on ghouls...magic-wielding, intelligent ghouls. You wanna talk scary!

Anyway, a lot depends on what you & your players expect out of a game. I agree that you'll all have it a little easier with fewer house rules, at least to start. Encourage the less combat oriented characters to play to their own strengths. And good luck! We're having a lot of fun, I hope you do, too.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 9 2006, 03:06 AM

Posted by: Squinky Jun 9 2006, 03:32 AM

Yeah, it was laughs for all. The character kinda was asking for it, hanging outside an ork bar on his scooter....I mean, a scooter!

I am totally digging Hyzmarca's ideas, freaking awesome. I think I can use those to salvage my game, thanks man!

Thanks all.

Posted by: Ophis Jun 9 2006, 08:45 AM

I must admit I'm puzzled as to how the ganger resisted (I know its's possible but...) magic is hard to resist unless you have someone counterspelling, the mag casts at force 4(from 3 of his own magic+powerfocus) Rolls 3(magic)+1(power foucus)+3?skill=7 dice, the ganger rolls 2 dice, possible to resist but seems unlikely to me. Why didn't the mage try again? That would wipe the smirk off the gangers face.

Posted by: nezumi Jun 9 2006, 01:09 PM

Just reading what's been posted so far, it seems to me that the problem isn't with the GM (although putting in appropriate defenses, including more skilled more cybered guards, animals and passive defenses couldn't hurt), but with the mage's player. He's a trickster. Why is he trying to play a combat monster? Magic gives him space to be creative, and being a trickster, it's just reinforced. If one of the characters made a decker and complained because he can't shoot straight, would you feel bad for him?

Give the mage a kick in the pants. Tell him to start playing up on his strengths instead of on his weaknesses. Start using illusions and the like to distract, harass, misdirect or confuse the guards instead of just zapping them with stunballs. It will make trickster proud.

Posted by: coolgrafix Jun 9 2006, 03:24 PM

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 9 2006, 04:44 PM

Posted by: Squinky Jun 9 2006, 07:13 PM

Well, I talked to all my players about fudging the dice. My personal opinion is I never liked it as a player. My player that was a GM says go for it, but the others are against it. So, when I play I roll the dice out where everyone can see, tell them what is going on so they can absorb the new rules. I plan on not doing this in the future, but it is a learning thing for us all now.

Still though, I'd prefer not to screw with the dice. I'd feel like it was too much railroading, and that whatever happens, happens. Characters can always permanantly burn edge if they are geeked and come out of it with a lost eye or hand, or a cool scar and a debt that needs repaid. I like that better than just letting my pc's off the hook. I'm new at this though, so things may change.
Ophis

The Shaman did try twice, and botched both rolls. It was really crazy probabilitys, but it went something like him getting one success the first try, the ganger getting one. Then on the second try he got 2 and the ganger got two. I had the gangers hair stand up straight from the magical energy, but that was about it. It was hard not to laugh considering he made a big performance out of casting the spells, just to have it fizzle.

I agree on him playing a trickster though, he did well on all the other stuff but the spells he tried in combat. He roleplays that well too, but I think everyone wants to be able to do something in combat.

Posted by: Brahm Jun 9 2006, 08:02 PM

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 9 2006, 08:10 PM

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 9 2006, 08:53 PM

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 9 2006, 09:13 PM

If a funky dice roll is going to kill the good time we're having, you'd better believe I'm gonna fudge it.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 9 2006, 10:49 PM

Fudging the dice is usually a bad idea. If you fudge in the players favor they can come to rely on it. If you fudge against the players then they can become confused. You need to be consistent.
As GM you're god. God has to be subtle. He's sort of like a professional arsonist. His best work looks perfectly natural, like an electrical fire due to a bad circuit breaker.
There are plenty of subtle things you can do. For example, you can have NPCs buy sucesses instead of rolling. Likewise, if you want to make a NPC tougher you can actually make it tougher by providing it with bonus dice or using edge or reroll failures instead of just ignoring unfavorable rolls. Of course, you can make things more difficult or easier by adjusting the edge refresh rate.



As for the Shaman's combat ability, in all honesty he should be superior to the gunbunny even with 5? fewer dice. Magic is that much better. A spellcasting focus can bring his dice up, as can specializing. Personally, I'm not sure that combat spells would be he best speciality. If you really want to help you can reintroduce expendable spell foci, but I'm afraid that they'll have a bigger impact than in SR3 due to the dice mechanic.

Posted by: NightHaunter Jun 10 2006, 12:17 PM

Fudging in both directions is necessary from time to time but I do keep it to a minimum.

My player suspect nothing. (Until Now)

It makes the feel of the game better.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 12 2006, 04:25 AM

Posted by: Tarantula Jun 12 2006, 08:55 AM

I'm with you on that one Wounded. Whats the weakest character doing out in the open in a likely combative area where he can be headshotted so easily?

Posted by: nezumi Jun 12 2006, 02:05 PM

Playing strictly online, I don't have too much right to comment, however I WILL fudge the dice when it'll stop the plotline (for example, perception test to find a critical clue that progresses the plot).

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 12 2006, 02:52 PM

Redundancy can help with that.

Posted by: SL James Jun 12 2006, 03:11 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 12 2006, 04:45 PM

I'm normally in favor of a little careful GM-fudging, especially since dead characters can ruin plotlines. I generally fudge slightly and find another inventive way to punish their bad luck.
However, with the all-powerful "escape certain death" rule in SR4, I'm no longer sure.

Posted by: Brahm Jun 12 2006, 04:55 PM

Posted by: Brahm Jun 12 2006, 05:03 PM

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 12 2006, 05:06 PM

I think a lot depends on the players, and the feel of the game you want.

Some games need to let dice fall where they may. others need to fudge in the players favor. If your playing with people who are new to SR, its a good idea to fudge things a bit. you want them to have fun, and want to play again. doing a game requiring detailed character creation with very brutal results of simple mistakes will not be fun for newbies.

Generaly, first few games you dont want to kill anyone unless they do something really bad like a shoot-out with the star. sure they can get hurt bad, but nothing worse than a deadly wound right? random combat in a mission because one guy glitches a stealth roll or alram disarm attempt is not a fun way to die.

But then, if you have a bunch of hardcore SR veterans, then fudging isnt really necessary. they know what their doing, and you can expect them to know the risks.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 12 2006, 05:09 PM

Posted by: SL James Jun 12 2006, 06:16 PM