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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Panther XXL 'recoil' ?
Posted by: Nim Jun 9 2006, 03:09 AM
| QUOTE |
| Panther XXL: {comes with a} rigid stock with shock pad, though these are hardly enough to compensate for its tremendous recoil. |
It has a RC rating of (1), and a Mode of...SS.
Maybe I'm missing something here, as this is my first read through the SR4 rules, but under what circumstances would an SS weapon /ever/ have a recoil penalty? Recoil applies to 'weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase', and to 'Burst-fire weapons' (p 142). A Single Shot weapon is clearly neither of these.
Was the coment about 'tremendous recoil' just meaningless fluff that doesn't match the rules, and the point of RC a useless add-on, or is there some other circumstance for recoil that's eluding me?
Posted by: CrimsonHawk Jun 9 2006, 03:12 AM
well if you have a speed monkey sam with 3 init passes maybe 4 with some drugs and such theres your second, third and maybe 4th shot in one round it does have a clip 
Posted by: CrimsonHawk Jun 9 2006, 03:15 AM
I just wish they had some RAW for drones and vehicles for recoil. crosses fingers maybe they will have it someday for 4th edition
Posted by: Nim Jun 9 2006, 03:19 AM
| QUOTE (CrimsonHawk) |
| well if you have a speed monkey sam with 3 init passes maybe 4 with some drugs and such theres your second, third and maybe 4th shot in one round it does have a clip :D |
Only if there are additional recoil rules beyond what's in the left column of p. 142...those very explicitly only cover attacks during the same Action Phase (not Combat Turn). So shots on your 2nd and 3rd initiative passes should be unaffected.
(I agree that it'd make some sense for recoil to apply to later passes in the same turn, but I don't see anything in the rules to indicate that it DOES. Totally open to being shown I'm wrong....)
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 9 2006, 03:19 AM
Just use tripod stats for vehicle mounts. i can't see a turret being worse than a tripod for stability.
Posted by: Jaid Jun 9 2006, 03:22 AM
| QUOTE (CrimsonHawk) |
| well if you have a speed monkey sam with 3 init passes maybe 4 with some drugs and such theres your second, third and maybe 4th shot in one round it does have a clip |
no, recoil is on an IP basis, not per combat turn.
in fact, there is one theoretical way the recoil compensation could factor in: firing multiple weapons. uncompensated recoil from one weapon is applied to the other.
while this is not likely a concern for most shadowrunners (i doubt most GMs would let even the biggest, strongest, toughest troll out there pull this one off), it could theoretically be a concern on vehicles with multiple weapon mounts.
of course, this assumes that the PAC is considered "LMG sized or smaller" (at this point anyways... iirc, that is the limitation given in the BBB for max weapon size on a weapon mount).
Posted by: Ophis Jun 9 2006, 08:33 AM
Just because you get only one shot a pass doesn't make the gun not recoil. I'm pretty sure most guns recoil no matter how rapidly you shoot. Sure the Panther never gets a recoil modifier on it's shots, unless your doing something odd, but it will still kick a little with each shot, so the recoil will be punishing, just not problematic for shooting.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 9 2006, 10:38 AM
In other words, the fluff is that it has punishing recoil, but there is no in-game, rule-enforced penalty from the recoil.
Posted by: knasser Jun 9 2006, 11:20 AM
| QUOTE (Nim) |
| Only if there are additional recoil rules beyond what's in the left column of p. 142...those very explicitly only cover attacks during the same Action Phase (not Combat Turn). So shots on your 2nd and 3rd initiative passes should be unaffected. (I agree that it'd make some sense for recoil to apply to later passes in the same turn, but I don't see anything in the rules to indicate that it DOES. Totally open to being shown I'm wrong....) |
This bothers me. I'm prepping to GM my first Shadowrun game and I only realised this yesterday.
How is it that one person can fire six bullets from a gun (two burst fire) and in the same space of time, another person can fire the same amount or more for the same recoil?
I'd like to change this, but I don't know how it would mess up the game.
Posted by: Tarantula Jun 9 2006, 11:41 AM
Because, the second persons reactions and speeds are sped up either through drugs, cyberware, bioware, or magic.
Posted by: Nim Jun 9 2006, 02:08 PM
| QUOTE (Ophis) |
| Just because you get only one shot a pass doesn't make the gun not recoil. I'm pretty sure most guns recoil no matter how rapidly you shoot. Sure the Panther never gets a recoil modifier on it's shots, unless your doing something odd, but it will still kick a little with each shot, so the recoil will be punishing, just not problematic for shooting. |
But the inclusion of a shock pad IS more or less NERPS, yes?
I'm fine with that in general, but it does bug me a /little/ bit that the flavor text (which would leave you with the impression that this is a weapon you'd want a gyro mount for, at the very least) isn't supported by the game mechanics. Mainly because the flavor text in this case seems pretty reasonable :)
On a related point (and I realize there's another thread on this subject, sort of, but it's gone far afield at this point), am I reading correctly that the rule for 'can this heavy weapon be used as a personal firearm by Character X' is 'common sense and GM judgement call'? That is, there are no specific rules about certain weapons requiring mount-points, a minimum Str/Bod, etc?
Not interested right now in the question of what the common sense answer IS (that's where the other thread got bogged down)...just that this is something the rules are leaving to GM judgement.
Posted by: TBRMInsanity Jun 9 2006, 02:10 PM
Try to watch the episode of MythBusters (as seen on the discovery channel in Canada) where they bust the myth of being blown away from a gun blast. Now fast forward to the Panther XXL, this is the weapon that WILL blow you away. The recoil on this weapon will put anyone tring to fire this thinkg un-supported through a wall.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 9 2006, 02:27 PM
A healthy amount of exaggeration there. 
The damage code of the Assault Cannons is not, neither in SR4 or SR3, all that huge. Sure, it's a big-ass gun. So is the Barrett M82, and the Barrett XM109 (which is generally considered the best real-world equivalent for SR's assault cannons), both of which can be fired by humans just fine. I imagine the XM109 can cross over to the uncomfortable range for most shooters, by some accounts having a recoil significantly stiffer than 12G magnums, but it's unlikely to put you on your ass, nevermind through a wall.
FNH USA were showing off a "High Impulse Weapon System" in one of the Blackwater Shootouts that fired 40mm high-velocity grenades, like those fired from the Mk 19 automatic GL. That's well outside of the power range of an "assault cannon". It also had a quite advanced form of recoil reduction buffer, and yet plenty of people were dropped on their asses firing it. In fact a lot of large men, and experienced shooters, staggered backwards several meters before falling on their asses firing that thing. I'm pretty sure nothing came out of the HIWS fad. 
Posted by: Thorn Black Jun 9 2006, 03:38 PM
I was watching the news on TV last night and saw some footage of fighters in some far off place firing a Russian made recoil-less gun. I know bugger all about RL firearms but it had a barrel large enough to accomodate a 2L bottle of Soy-pepsi and apart from a big bang and a ton of dust and smoke there was minimum recoil.
Surely we can assume that a similar technology of redirecting the venting gasses has been used on the PAC?
Posted by: Geekkake Jun 9 2006, 03:40 PM
| QUOTE (Thorn Black) |
| I was watching the news on TV last night and saw some footage of fighters in some far off place firing a Russian made recoil-less gun. I know bugger all about RL firearms but it had a barrel large enough to accomodate a 2L bottle of Soy-pepsi and apart from a big bang and a ton of dust and smoke there was minimum recoil. Surely we can assume that a similar technology of redirecting the venting gasses has been used on the PAC? |
More along the lines of something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Materiel_Rifle.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jun 9 2006, 04:41 PM
| QUOTE (Nim) | ||
It has a RC rating of (1), and a Mode of...SS. Maybe I'm missing something here, as this is my first read through the SR4 rules, but under what circumstances would an SS weapon /ever/ have a recoil penalty? Recoil applies to 'weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase', and to 'Burst-fire weapons' (p 142). A Single Shot weapon is clearly neither of these. Was the coment about 'tremendous recoil' just meaningless fluff that doesn't match the rules, and the point of RC a useless add-on, or is there some other circumstance for recoil that's eluding me? |
I asked the same question a while back and there was no clear answer why they chose to include that information about the PC XXL aside from flavor.
PS - Welcome to Dumpshock but your search-fu is weak!
Posted by: mfb Jun 9 2006, 05:07 PM
it's so obvious. the reason the PAC has RC is so that you can dual-wield them. dual recoil still stacks in SR4, right?
Posted by: Lagomorph Jun 9 2006, 05:31 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| it's so obvious. the reason the PAC has RC is so that you can dual-wield them. dual recoil still stacks in SR4, right? |
lol, I was gonna say the exact same thing.
You beat me to the punchline mfb
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 9 2006, 05:39 PM
I always figured that the SS rate of fire was part of the "tremendous recoil." The weapon's design and imagery seems to indicate that it's semiautomatic, so the ROF being SS, in my opinion, is referencing the amount of time it takes to recover from the recoil.
It's like the old Salavette Guardian being able to fire bursts as a Complex Action. It's not that the cyclic ROF on the gun is appallingly slow, it's that the gun walks up real fast on burst, and takes a sec to get back on target.
Posted by: Nim Jun 9 2006, 06:12 PM
| QUOTE (Shrike30) |
| I always figured that the SS rate of fire was part of the "tremendous recoil." The weapon's design and imagery seems to indicate that it's semiautomatic, so the ROF being SS, in my opinion, is referencing the amount of time it takes to recover from the recoil. It's like the old Salavette Guardian being able to fire bursts as a Complex Action. It's not that the cyclic ROF on the gun is appallingly slow, it's that the gun walks up real fast on burst, and takes a sec to get back on target. |
Huh! Actually, that's a great explanation. It's an SA weapon with a recoil penalty of -Infinity
Of course, if it had been statted that way, a character would be able to blow Edge to Longshot a second attack....
Posted by: NightHaunter Jun 10 2006, 11:45 AM
Not in my game.
You are not rolling for longshot when your barrel is pointed at the sky. The combat would be over by the time that shot lands!
Posted by: Kalvan Jun 10 2006, 04:32 PM
In my game, shooting a Panther improperly braced (without say, a tripod or a gyromount) deals 5P damage (and possibly breaks one's shoulder) to any idiot stupid enough to try it. No piece of cyberware (other than a gyromount), bioware, spell, or adept power will bypass this.
Posted by: Tarantula Jun 10 2006, 04:42 PM
How about titanium bone lacing or bone density enhanced players? Does being an elf/human make them take more damage than an orc/troll?
Posted by: Voorhees Jun 10 2006, 05:03 PM
So, firing an assault cannon deals actual, physical damage, equivalent to being shot with a pistol?
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 10 2006, 05:17 PM
Obviously a Panther AC is basically like a http://youtube.com/watch?v=LKjMybZYFFI. You can tell by the fact that it weighs more than a troll, fires HE ammunition that weighs 5kg per cartridge and has a much larger area of effect than grenade launcher rounds, has an effective range of more than 4 kilometers, and automatically kills any metahuman it hits without any rolling necessary.
Posted by: Clyde Jun 10 2006, 05:53 PM
Clearly it has a shock pad because you'll need the recoil compensation when firing a SECOND assault cannon in your off hand.
Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 10 2006, 09:20 PM
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jun 10 2006, 01:17 PM) |
| Obviously a Panther AC is basically like a http://youtube.com/watch?v=LKjMybZYFFI. You can tell by the fact that it weighs more than a troll, fires HE ammunition that weighs 5kg per cartridge and has a much larger area of effect than grenade launcher rounds, has an effective range of more than 4 kilometers, and automatically kills any metahuman it hits without any rolling necessary. |
I love that video. It looks like the cannon mis-fired when he closed the breach, but if the lanyard is in his left hand, it could just be that he's a born and bred dumbfuck.
As for the Panther AC, it's simple. Just say that it's impossible to fire in anything other than SS mode while unsupported (because you're not going to fucking hit anything,) but if properly braced on a tripod, vehicle mount, or any other proper bracing, can be revved up and fired in SA or FA.
Remember, the more rope you give the players, the more inventive they get when they hang themselves.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 10 2006, 11:23 PM
Perhaps we should should split the difference and say that you can fire assualt cannons semi-automaticly if you dual wield and fire both at the same time in opposite directions while sommersault jumping like in Contra 3.
Posted by: Ophis Jun 11 2006, 08:48 AM
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| How about titanium bone lacing or bone density enhanced players? Does being an elf/human make them take more damage than an orc/troll? |
No need to change the damage, their additional resistance to the ffect is already fctored in by their larger soak pools. I personally think 5P is a lttle high (i'd go for 3P).
Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 11 2006, 11:28 AM
3P is still quite excessive. A body 12 troll (who shoudl be able to fire it just fine) would still have a ~19% chance of taking some damage.
Posted by: Tarantula Jun 11 2006, 07:20 PM
| QUOTE (Ophis) |
| No need to change the damage, their additional resistance to the ffect is already fctored in by their larger soak pools. I personally think 5P is a lttle high (i'd go for 3P). |
Sure, but if the point is because of the size of the gun, shouldn't dwarves take more? and why shouldn't a troll take less damage from it? I was simply saying that he said it could break bones, so if it can break normal bones, would it be able to break the laced metal bones, or the density enhanced ones? Can it only break normal human bones? Or are elves good too?
Basically, a bunch of absurdly detailed questions to showcase why we don't get this detailed with effects of things.
Posted by: Geekkake Jun 11 2006, 07:50 PM
| QUOTE (Kalvan @ Jun 10 2006, 11:32 AM) |
| In my game, shooting a Panther improperly braced (without say, a tripod or a gyromount) deals 5P damage (and possibly breaks one's shoulder) to any idiot stupid enough to try it. No piece of cyberware (other than a gyromount), bioware, spell, or adept power will bypass this. |
Why? A Panther assault cannon is essentially an anti-materiel rifle. While not intended for standing fire, mostly due to size and not recoil, the huge muzzle brake, shock pad, and that weapon's action itself lend a felt recoil not unlike a 7.62mm rifle such as the M14.
The easiest method of game balance, in my opinion, is not changing the rules on a PAC, but simple escalation. A runner whipping out a PAC (in addition to not actually doing his fucking job) is inviting his opposition to also send in the clowns. And by clowns, I mean PACs, missiles, etc.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 11 2006, 08:37 PM
| QUOTE (Geekkake) |
| [...] the huge muzzle brake, shock pad, and that weapon's action itself lend a felt recoil not unlike a 7.62mm rifle such as the M14. |
If the recoil reduction system is insanely effective, then that may be the case. Real world equivalent weapons, like the http://www.barrettrifles.com/military/xm109.htm (http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/payload.pdf), recoil quite a bit more energetically than 7.62x51mm rifles like the M14. Again, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82A1 is often described as having about as strong a kick as 12 gauge 3" loads. The felt recoil on the XM109 is by all accounts stiffer than on an M82, but still poses zero risk of physical injury to a trained shooter.
Posted by: Butterblume Jun 11 2006, 08:46 PM
Receiving damage from firing a weapon is one good way to resolve glitches, I think.
Posted by: UndeadPoet Jun 12 2006, 10:14 AM
| QUOTE (Clyde @ Jun 10 2006, 12:53 PM) |
| Clearly it has a shock pad because you'll need the recoil compensation when firing a SECOND assault cannon in your off hand. |
Look, if I was a fan of putting quotes in my signature, I would definately use yours. So hilarous!
Posted by: Dudukain Jun 12 2006, 09:09 PM
Maybe they threw that in there in case some player comes up with a mod to add firing modes to a weapon and got it approved by the GM, and then started using a full auto Assualt Cannon 
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 12 2006, 09:17 PM
Didn't the CC have rules for adding autofire to a weapon?
Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 12 2006, 09:18 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it says that all heavy weapons suffer double recoil penalties if uncompensated. Which means firing a PAC from the hip, or simply not bracing it, would cause a -2 recoil penalty, yes?
Posted by: Butterblume Jun 12 2006, 09:25 PM
Basically, yes. But since the first shot in an iniative phase has zero recoil, not much of an issue for a single shot weapon .
Posted by: Nim Jun 12 2006, 09:53 PM
Right. The first shot per phase only has recoil if it's burst-fire. The PAC isn't capable of burst fire, nor is it capable of a second shot.
Posted by: Geekkake Jun 12 2006, 10:02 PM
| QUOTE (Nim) |
| Right. The first shot per phase only has recoil if it's burst-fire. The PAC isn't capable of burst fire, nor is it capable of a second shot. |
Which brings us back to the original point: Why the Hell does a PAC have a shock pad if it's SS?
The easiest answer, in my mind, is flavor. A big, big round like that needs all the shock mitigation it can get. So while it may not have a specific reason in game mechanics, it makes it easier on the shooter in RP.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 12 2006, 10:44 PM
| QUOTE (Geekkake) | ||
Which brings us back to the original point: Why the Hell does a PAC have a shock pad if it's SS? The easiest answer, in my mind, is flavor. A big, big round like that needs all the shock mitigation it can get. So while it may not have a specific reason in game mechanics, it makes it easier on the shooter in RP. |
Dual weilding, as has been aid before. You canfire one on your first simple action and the other on your second simple action. It would even require splitting your pool since it is two seperate actions.
Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 13 2006, 06:49 PM
I've fired large caliber firearms before.
Due to the kick I wanted all the possible Recoil Compensation that I could get.
Some of the kick is eaten up in the firearms weight. This seems somewhat simplified in the damage vs gun size.
I would not recommend letting someone duel-weld anything bigger than an Machine Pistol, or SMG (possibly with minor penalties due to size) for game feel.
Posted by: Butterblume Jun 13 2006, 06:56 PM
| QUOTE (Demon_Bob) |
| I would not recommend letting someone duel-weld anything bigger than an Machine Pistol, or SMG |
I believe that's actually in the rules
.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 13 2006, 07:01 PM
| QUOTE (Butterblume) | ||
I believe that's actually in the rules . |
That's only for firing them at the same time.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 13 2006, 09:14 PM
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| FNH USA were showing off a "High Impulse Weapon System" in one of the Blackwater Shootouts that fired 40mm high-velocity grenades, like those fired from the Mk 19 automatic GL. That's well outside of the power range of an "assault cannon". It also had a quite advanced form of recoil reduction buffer, and yet plenty of people were dropped on their asses firing it. In fact a lot of large men, and experienced shooters, staggered backwards several meters before falling on their asses firing that thing. I'm pretty sure nothing came out of the HIWS fad. |
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2040735568929942964&q=high+impulse+weapon&pl=true
I'm pretty sure this is what they mean by "double uncompensated recoil".
=D
-karma
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 14 2006, 12:25 AM
That's the 76mm version, which apparently pushes you back as much (as much recoil impulse), but has a much less sharp kick to it (less recoil energy and/or slower recoil transfer) than the 40mm HV model -- the 76mm probably fires a far heavier projectile, but at a far lower velocity. Those guys just stagger or fall down, the people who fired the 40mm HV one looked like they were hurt.
Posted by: Raygun Jun 14 2006, 12:52 AM
Too bad AFJ took down those videos. 
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 15 2006, 07:21 PM
When you start talking weapons over .50 caliber, you're getting well out of the range I'm familiar with. What would be the application of a shoulder-fired 40mm or 76mm HIWS, that something like an AT4 couldn't handle? Do they want it to serve as a kind of man-portable extremely heavy grenade launcher, or what?
Posted by: Raygun Jun 16 2006, 12:01 AM
Well, with the FN launcher Aus was talking about, the idea is simply to enhance the range of current shoulder-fired low-velocity 40mm launchers by using the high-velocity 40mm munitions that the Mk19 and other automatic grenade launchers fire. You're at least doubling your range that way.
As far as that 76mm HIWS, I have no idea what the point of it is (over an AT4), other than to demontrate a system that allows things that develop a very high recoil impulse, like mortars, to be fired from the shoulder. Why anyone would want to is irrelevant, I guess. But now you can!
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 16 2006, 05:23 PM
I dunno... I guess I can see the appeal in that you could start making a huge variety of munitions for it, and train someone on one weapon system rather than a variety of them. Have AT rounds, explosive, maybe use it as a drone launching system, direct and indirect capabilities (especially if they managed to integrate some sort of ballistic computations... it could double as a mortar). Yeah, the piece is pretty big, but it's not like AT4s are small.
Sounds a little too forward-thinking, though.
Posted by: Dudukain Jun 17 2006, 02:37 AM
Just this morning, I was thinking of this very issue because of this thread, and I finally realized why that was there.
Without the recoil, the panther would be a quicker fire. Let's say, for the sake of this argument, that if you install say....9 points of recoil compensation on a panther, it becomes semi auto.
Posted by: Jaid Jun 17 2006, 04:49 AM
i mentioned this earlier, but no one seems to have picked up on it. so i will repeat:
i will now proceed to give an example of why you might need recoil compensation on a PAC. this is presented as the rules are written... you may disagree with some of this, and you are entitled to disagree (and houserule if you are the GM), but it does work, as far as i can tell (well, at least they never really indicate if the PAC is bigger than an LMG... it is my understanding the PAC is, in fact, handheld, albeit 2 hands, and is not intended to be fired from a prone position, based on the fact that it has no bipod, or tripod, built in, so i would rule that it is about the same size as the LMG personally. YMMV).
1) start with a yamaha growler.
2) install 2 weapon mounts
3) mount a PAC with a smart firing platform into each weapon mount.
each gun can fire in the same round, because it is the smart firing platform that is doing the work, and performing the actions. because they are mounted on the same vehicle, they still cause recoil onto the other.
if you really don't like this example, then consider the possibility of two people riding the same growler. each has a PAC. each fires the PAC. does it not make sense for their recoil to affect each other? the sudden shift in balance, at least, should throw off the other rider's aim. admittedly a house rule, but it is one i think not too many people would argue with.
of course, you could also just assume it's for dual wielding dragons 
Posted by: Nim Jun 17 2006, 01:41 PM
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| if you really don't like this example, then consider the possibility of two people riding the same growler. each has a PAC. each fires the PAC. does it not make sense for their recoil to affect each other? the sudden shift in balance, at least, should throw off the other rider's aim. admittedly a house rule, but it is one i think not too many people would argue with. |
The problem with this is that you would then either need to draw line somewhere ("these weapons' recoil affects everyone on the same vehicle, these over here don't"), or rule that the recoil from a semi-automatic .22 jolts an armored vehicle enough to throw off everyone else's aim.
Posted by: Jaid Jun 17 2006, 05:11 PM
| QUOTE (Nim) | ||
The problem with this is that you would then either need to draw line somewhere ("these weapons' recoil affects everyone on the same vehicle, these over here don't"), or rule that the recoil from a semi-automatic .22 jolts an armored vehicle enough to throw off everyone else's aim. |
yes, that's why we have GMs instead of computers.
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