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Posted by: renaissancefox Jun 9 2006, 05:52 PM

I've heard references made to an Omega Order. All I've managed to gather is that it's a sanction that gets handed down from the Corporate Court to a corporation. I went through Corporate Download, and found another mention of the Order, but nothing more.

So... What exactly is an Omega Order?

Posted by: knasser Jun 9 2006, 06:02 PM

I think this was first detailed in the Corporate Shadowfiles sourcebook for 2nd ed. which has to be one of the best written RPG supplements I've ever read. I don't recall seeing the Omega order actually detailed anywhere since, though I might have missed it. As I recall, it involves a complete freezing of the corp's assets and a prevention of trading. It was the nuclear weapon of the corporate court - the only authority that could issue one. Placing the order for even just a few hours would wreak havoc on even the AAA's.

Posted by: FiveVenoms Jun 9 2006, 06:03 PM

If I recall correctly, and I'm sure some trivia-savvy Dumpshocker will correct and/or clarify here, it's when the Corporate Court authorizes an 'attack', physical or financial, on a Megacorps assets (or part of them, at least) without fear of reprisal from the Corporate Court. Declaring open season, if you will.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 9 2006, 06:06 PM

Its the Corporate Court's version of Orbital Bovine Bombardment.

Essentially, the CC seizes all of your assets and divies them up between the Big 10 (or Big 9 if you happen to be a AAA). To accomplish this seizure the members of the Corpoate Court are all allowed and possibly required to use their full military might. This usually involves the officers of the targeted corporation having Thor Shots shot droped on them among other demonstrations of excessive force. Nuclear detonations are quite possible.

Of course, I could be wrong. Did they issue an Omega Order agaisnt Dankwalther?

At any rate, it is bad.

Edit:knasser may be right.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 9 2006, 06:19 PM

Y'all basically have it nailed... Omega Orders are when the CC lets everyone in the business world know that it's fine if they want to play a little slap-and-tickle with the corporation on the recieving end, because the CC isn't going to take action against them. Anything they walk away with is theirs.

There's pure profit in this. *EVERYONE* wants in on it.

Posted by: knasser Jun 9 2006, 06:21 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Edit:knasser may be right.

I may be wrong. It was a long time ago, but I don't remember anything about orbital bombardment or open season. You may be confusing it with the concept of Corp War which could potentially result from an Omega Order. I think freezing of assets and prevention of trading would be sufficient to bring down any corp if sustained long enough.

Posted by: knasser Jun 9 2006, 06:34 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 9 2006, 01:19 PM)

I don't think this is really realistic. You're talking about a corporation as if it were a big piggy bank filled with microchips and blueprints. Shadowrunners may be hired to sextract this sort of stuff from time to time, but the wealth of a corporation, much more so a megacorp, is in investments, property rights, supply links and contracts. Not to mention in the case of big sites such as the Renraku Arcology, stable communities of people.

And leaving aside the general destruction and loss of value that results from any violent seizure of assets, it's not as though the Corporate Court is some mighty protective force that you're stuffed without. It's more of a UN style forum with the Megacorps playing the role of the security council. People don't avoid invading Saeder-Krupp territory because the Corporate Court will send the boys around. They avoid it because Saeder-Krupp will defend itself. An omega order doesn't change that.

The more that I think about this, the more I'm sure an Omega Order involved financial restrictions and controls, rather than anything silly like "Hey Bobtechnology got OO'ed. Let's seize all their patents by dropping a missile through their roof."

It'll take someone with a copy of Coporate Shadowfiles to determine the truth of this, though.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 9 2006, 07:29 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 9 2006, 01:19 PM)

While not part of an Omega Order proper, it is possible for other individuals and organizations, such as corporations, to profit from the event. The corp executives are gonna be practically giving away their privately owned shares in the company on their way out the door. If you're quick about it and manage to get deals going with enough execs, as well as the stock market itself, you can ninja yourself a controlling stake in Bobtechnology. Those patents would then be yours, as you can merge the company, make it a subsidiary, etc.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 9 2006, 07:36 PM

I always understood an Omega Order as "Open Season". It's something the Corporate Court issues when it wants to school a Mega or AA. To put it in today's terms, it would be like the U.N. unanimously declaring that none of it's members would initiate any reprisal on anyone who wants to go school North Korea, for example.

Essentially, it's legitimizing a corporate war, saying "They're marked men. Go get 'em, you keep what you kill." For those of you who play Btech, it's like authorizing a War of Absorbtion on another Clan, only the authorization applies to every other Clan. Essentially it's "They're dead dogs, take whatever you want from them."

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 9 2006, 07:44 PM

No, everyone is turning around the ball....

An Omega Order is "Open Season". As you know, the corps are always hitting each other. But it's not "personnal", just business, and the corps shrug when something blows up. Sometimes, however, things do get personal and out of hand: a corp war.

Corp wars are no good. It's not just business. It's revenge and dirty and violent, and BAD FOR BUSINESS for everyone else. The Corporate Court will thus always step in, smack some sense into both corps and things will cool down.

However, when a corp does something very very bad, such as arrogantly refusing to listen to the CC, the CC can call an Omega Order. This is both a duty and an opportunity. It means all other corps can and should innitiate acts of aggression towards the corp, possibly even in unison. The result is that the victim will quickly start taking such massive losses, that in order to survive, it will have to surrender to the CC's will.

It is worth noting that NO OMEGA ORDER HAS EVER BEEN GIVEN OUT. The only thing that came close to it is the Veracruz Incident, in which Ares, Mitsuhama and Fuchi (I think) banded together to run a joint military strike against an Aztechnology military base, with the CC's consent. It stopped at that, however, as Aztechnology got the message and backed down.

There is no real definition as to what an Omega Order entails precisely. Maybe the CC will seize assets, maybe it won't. Maybe shit will explode, maybe it won't. All it means, basically, is that the CC will no longer protect you in anyway.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 9 2006, 09:13 PM

Backgammon....

Ever hear the name 'Fuchi Industrial Electronics?' Ring any bells? If you didn't start playing until 2055/2060, it might not.

The CC handed out an OO, and that's why you'll occasionally hear an old timer going "Hey, remember that Run we did on the Fuchi place in Seattle", and all the new guys around him are going "Fuchi? Wtf is that? Some japanese restraunt?

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 9 2006, 09:16 PM

The biggest problem is, Fuchi used to be one of my most regularly appearing corporations, partially due to the fact that if it was vaguely technical, it was probably Fuchi.

Here I am, gearing back into SR, and my fallback corporation is gone

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 9 2006, 09:19 PM

Uh, Shadowdragon, Backgammon has been on the forums since '02 and who knows how long before the forums got restarted. I think he's played shadowrun for a while including the storylines before 2055/2060.

edit: not to imply anything, but I'm pretty sure Back knows what Fuchi was in the game.

Posted by: mdynna Jun 9 2006, 09:54 PM

Fuchi didn't die from an OO. They died because of the machinations of Richard Villiers. He basically "stole" 1/3 of Fuchi to start Novatech. Fuchi was dying because of the internal conflict between the 3 major shareholders. After Villiers took his third the other corps saw Fuchi as ripe for the picking so that's when Fuchi Asia merged with Renraku when Nakatomi bought the 300,000 shares of Renraku (and the board seat) that Miles Lanier had been gifted in Big D's will. Fuchi Europe merged with Shiawase when Yamana married into the corporate family, bringing what remaind of Fuchi with him. (Go find the Blood in the Boardroom campaign for all of this)

The only OO ever issued (or closest thing, to my knowledge) was when Aztechnology (I think it was called ORO back then) used their puppet Aztlan and tried to nationalize (take) all corporate assets. The CC dropped the hammer on them and they backed off.

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 9 2006, 10:35 PM

QUOTE (mdynna)

Fuchi didn't die from an OO. They died because of the machinations of Richard Villiers. He basically "stole" 1/3 of Fuchi to start Novatech. Fuchi was dying because of the internal conflict between the 3 major shareholders. After Villiers took his third the other corps saw Fuchi as ripe for the picking so that's when Fuchi Asia merged with Renraku when Nakatomi bought the 300,00 shares of Renraku (and the board seat) that Miles Lanier had been gifted in Big D's will. Fuchi Europe merged with Shiawase when Yamana married into the corporate family, bringing what remaind of Fuchi with him. (Go find the Blood in the Boardroom campaign for all of this)

The only OO ever issued (or closest thing, to my knowledge) was when Aztechnology (I think it was called ORO back then) used their puppet Aztlan and tried to nationalize (take) all corporate assets. The CC dropped the hammer on them and they backed off.

Bingo.

Posted by: Glorian Jun 9 2006, 10:57 PM

According to Aztlan Sourcebook, p.42

QUOTE

An Omega Order constitutes the Corporate Court in Zurich-Orbital declaring open season on a corporation for any number of reasons.

Corporate Shadowfiles gives one reason for an Omega Order as reasonable suspicion of computer assaults, so as to prevent corps from planting destructive viruses or trying to break the Matrix.

Corporate Download, p.22 says

QUOTE

For extreme transgressions, the Court issues an Omega Order. This decree, essentially a mandate to all AAA corps to punish the offender, makes it open season on the condemned corp. It's the corporate equivalent of a death sentence, and it ain't pretty.

An Omega Order is mentioned on Corporate Shdowfiles, p. 91. Yamatetsu started a corporate war, that was leading to open war. Everyone pulled back from the brink, except some East Jerusalem corporation named QZE Corporation.

QUOTE

Anyways, this Omega Order declared open season on QZE Corporation. Anybody could strike at all of its assets with impunity, everywhere in the world. Using the Omega Order as justification, all the major corps that had recently been at each other's throats teamed up to wipe QZE Corporation off the face of the earth.

Art Dankwalther was also the subject of an Omega Order, according to System Failure, p.30 and p. 127.

That is all that I can find in the books about Omega Orders. Doesn't say anything specific about freezing assets or seizing the spoils.

Operation Reciprocity was not an Omega Order. It was all of the AAA megacorps destroying an Aztechnology military base in Esenada, near San Diego, in 2048 to tell Aztechnology to play by the Corporate Court rules. This led to the Veracruz Settlement. It was a surgical strike, not open season.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 9 2006, 10:59 PM

Huh...

I'll take salt with my dose of crow. I thought they died because the CC called an OO on them.

Posted by: TonkaTuff Jun 9 2006, 11:49 PM

Since it's a second-hand reference, I can't begin to give a page number on it, but according to the Timeline Explorer hosted here on Dumpshock, there was what appears to have been an Omega Order issued in 2041 against a corporation called Lanrie. According to the entry, they'd engaged in viral warfare with an unnamed competitor in Miami. In retaliation, their corporate assets and infrastructure were destroyed, and the board of executives were rounded up and executed. Though it doesn't explicitly say it was an Omega Order, that seems most likely as they're enacted by the CC in response to viral attacks and declare open season on the offender.

Though whether all of the events listed in the Explorer are official-canon, or from the creator's own campaign-canon, I can't say. Perhaps someone more familiar with either could shed some light on things?

Posted by: Glorian Jun 10 2006, 01:16 AM

The incident with Lanrie is canon. It's from page 177 of the Nigel Findley's novel Shadowplay.

QUOTE

In 2041, an Atlanta-based corporated called Lanrie—a small player, its influence limited to the Confederated American States—infected a competitor in Miami with a tailored computer virus. Somehow the major zaibatsus found out about it. Under the terms of the Concord of Zurich-Orbital, and with the sanction of the Corporate Court, the megacorporations totally destroyed Lanrie. Shattered its financial structure. Destroyed its facilities and assets. Executed its Board of Directors. All as an object lesson. Since then nobody has actually practiced viral warfare.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 10 2006, 02:04 AM

Kinda spooky, really. Since Lanrie wasen't actually a megacorp with it's own extraterritorial jurisdiction, that means that the CC basically put out a hit on CAS citizens and property that lay on CAS land - and went unopposed in doing so.

Can't say I like anything corporate having that kind of authority.

Posted by: Ophis Jun 10 2006, 09:53 AM

Welcome to the Shadows kid, thats the way the world is.

Posted by: ornot Jun 10 2006, 10:43 AM

I have always had the impression that most of the aggrssive interactions between corps were non-physical anyway. While I don't dispute that an Omega Order would permit the other corps to send in strike teams to steal protoypes, researchers, data and so on (the sort of things corps normally hire Shadowrunners for due to deniability), I also think that it permits all manner of dirty tricks to acquire in one way or another shares, investments and even control of installations, which would normally be frowned upon.

From the name, "Omega Order", I also get the impression that the CC is only meant to have to issue one such to any company, Omega being linked with the final end of things in quite a big way.

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Jun 10 2006, 05:05 PM

In short the Omega Order is a free ticket for every corporation in the world to do whatever they want (legal and illegal [usually the latter]) against the targeted corporation. This includes sanctions, backroom stock manipulation, mass extraction (of major and minor personnel), mass extermination (of major and minor personnel), open assult against extraterretrial facilities (ie blow up their coprorate enclaves), and various other shadowrun activites. Only one Corporation has had the Omega Order and that was Aztechnology. It survived the assult but the result was it went from being number one corp in the world to barely AAA status. Aztechnology was forced to pull back most of their resources back to Azland to survive. They are only now comming back from that hit.

Posted by: Brahm Jun 10 2006, 07:05 PM

Omega is the end. An Omega Order is a Corp Court sanctioned termination, be it financial, individual, or mass destruction. If you are going that high up the ladder to get the OK to kill an individual or group it usually means you'll bring out the big guns. Whatever you are going to try pull off it is going to create a huge, messy splash that is going to be nigh impossible to cover up and not trace back to you, and you don't care because you are in the "right". It doesn't really get any bigger than orbital bombardment. Of course you also have to deal with whatever non-CC governed entity if you are acting in a jurisdiction outside of one of the CC members, but that's just another big bag or two of money or perhaps a deniable asset to do the job.

Think of it like a UN security counsel resolution granting you permission to go out and attack. It is really just someone making up permission, and a bunch of other people all agreeing (I believe that an OO vote must be unanimous, outside of the target if they hold a seat). But there can obviously be descenters outside the circle, and you'll have to deal with them separately using guns, stealth, deception, negotiation, intimadation, etc.

EDIT: Note that it is really just a type of edict. The specifics of the contents, who can attack, who if anyone gets to loot, duration, limits, etc. can vary from OO to OO.

Posted by: Cang Jun 10 2006, 11:54 PM

I picture the CC and the omega order as the modern day Roman catholic Church of the middle ages. At that time you had to be very friendly with the pope, because if you did something to upset the church and the pope (the CC in this case) he could decree a crusade on you and your land (omega order). Excluding the crusades to free the holy land, this order was a way to punish someone who did not follow and obey the Roman catholic church. After such a decree, all the "good" nations (mega corps in our case) could go and were encouraged to go and wage war on the "bad" nation. This meant land and money for the ones doing the invading (if successful) and sorrow for the one on the receiving end. Example; take when England invaded the catholic nation of Ireland (not really middle ages, but stay with me here), the church declared one of these open seasons on England. Well Spain went after England with an armada and.. well.. failed, but that is besides the point. You can understand where i am coming from here.

Posted by: Edward Jun 11 2006, 01:57 AM

Removal of all corporate rights. An invitation for other corporations to steal from and destroy the offending corporations threw whatever means they find desirable.

Bear in mind that there are very few offenses that result in an omega order and all of them make the other corporations angry. It isn’t pure profit, it is also revenge and discouragement of other potential offenders

It still may not be logical but it since when have people been logical, and OOG it is fun

Corporate war is when the corps ignore the corporate court and all go at each other.

“People don't avoid invading Saeder-Krupp territory because the Corporate Court will send the boys around. They avoid it because Saeder-Krupp will defend itself”

if an omega order was issued against SK then all the megacorps would attack SK at the same time. Even SK dose not have the might to defend itself against that, less counter attack.

Normally when a member of the corporate community dose something bad the court will issue a punishment order. One or more relatively uninvolved corps will be given permission to do a fixed nuyen value of damage to the offender. This usually involves blasting in and stealing research data, there is no rule against accepting a bribe equal to the value of damage required.

An omega order could only result from the most unacceptable of crimes, such as breaching the concords, suspected core wars activity or deliberately inciting corporate war. Every mega corporation is required to do whatever damage they can to the target. The intent is that they will be destroyed. Not crippled, not made to mend there ways. The only purpose they will serve is as an object lesson to others that would defy the powers of the corporate court in such a flagrant manner.

As an aside if you can get Corporate Shadowfiles do so. The rules are out of date and half the mega corps have changed but it is still one of the best books printed, it shows how the corps think and do buisnus. And is an amusing read.

Edward

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 06:00 AM

QUOTE (Edward)

“People don't avoid invading Saeder-Krupp territory because the Corporate Court will send the boys around. They avoid it because Saeder-Krupp will defend itself”

if an omega order was issued against SK then all the megacorps would attack SK at the same time. Even SK dose not have the might to defend itself against that, less counter attack.

Bad example. Trust me, calling an Omega on Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries would be suicidal. Their Chairdragon is personally capable of erasing all of your executives, and you can't stop him.

Even if every other AAA in the world went full-on at SK...

Well, then you'd have a World War, essentially. Lofwyr's magical enough to simply appear where he wishes with almost zero notice, and none of the other corps have enough magical badassery to stop him, and as Ghostwalker demonstrated, mundane air-defenses, even powerful ones, will not touch a Great Dragon/

Posted by: Grinder Jun 11 2006, 07:53 AM

You need a GD to fight a GD - and there are some (plent according to DotSW) of which some would gladly help against Lofwyr.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 10:55 AM

QUOTE (Edward @ Jun 10 2006, 08:57 PM)

It still may not be logical but it since when have people been logical, and OOG it is fun

Now that argument, I'll gladly accept. Fun trumps realisim!

But I can't accept this interpretation of Omega Order has being in any way realistic. Corps are about profit and nothing else. There is no profit in physical assault of another corps property, employees or (Heaven forbid) shareholders. . In fact, it will cost you a not insignificant amount.

Besides which, it's all redundant. The corporate court, under an omega order, can seize and reallocate a corps funds and assets with the stroke of a keyboard. And for all the Lofwyr-worship in this forum, not even that great dragon can do much about it. If Big L's money is transferred to other banks and corporations what do you think he's going to do to stop it? Burn to death the bank clerk who typed the instructions into the computer? If the CC says that the patent SK owned now belongs to Renraku and Novatech what's he going to do? Go round every shop and factory that "infringes" it and demand some cred-sticks like a fat scaly racketeer? And if all the inhabitants of a corporate enclave loyally declare that they still serve the company, what will they be saying when they haven't been paid a month from now, the corp has no credit to buy food in to feed them, let alone keep the power running when the electricity board turns the lights off?

Money, contracts, property rights are not physical things to put behind monowire fences. They are a game of co-operation and the CC is the kid with the ball who can take it and go home. Only if your enemies were dumb enough to initiate physical attacks on you would you have any way in which to fight back. But they wouldn't because they don't want your computers, they want your contracts.

There are other reasons why you could have a physical war between corps, but the Omega Order as a free-for-all, doesn't make sense. Corps are run by greed not blind instinct to violence.

Posted by: ornot Jun 11 2006, 11:28 AM

That I can definately agree with Knasser!

Posted by: Brahm Jun 11 2006, 03:41 PM

QUOTE (Grinder @ Jun 11 2006, 02:53 AM)

You need a GD to fight a GD - and there are some (plent according to DotSW) of which some would gladly help against Lofwyr.

NeoNET has one as an executive. He isn't the same class of heavy hitter that Lofwyr is, but that's a start.

This is pretty theoretical though, because first they'd have to convince the other 9 CC seats that it is in their best interests to do this. Look at what Aztech had to attempt to do to get the OO against them.

See that, knasser, is an example of where it made profit/loss sense. Sure the Horrors were going to be a "4th quarter problem", and they had to keep an eye on their current bottom line. But oh boy, what a 4th quarter problem it would have been.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 03:54 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

The corporate court, under an omega order, can seize and reallocate a corps funds and assets with the stroke of a keyboard.

Because even the ZOB is run by people from every AAA, and SK runs it's own banks, that sounds easier than it is.

QUOTE (knasser)

Money, contracts, property rights are not physical things to put behind monowire fences. They are a game of co-operation and the CC is the kid with the ball who can take it and go home.

And as allowing the CC doing so is only a matter of being nice and play along, physical escalation is about the only method to enforce this.

But the CC has no real power - it's just a board that seeks to maintain balance.

QUOTE (knasser)

There are other reasons why you could have a physical war between corps, but the Omega Order as a free-for-all, doesn't make sense. Corps are run by greed not blind instinct to violence.

On the contrary - Omega Orders are about the only solution if corps don't want to play along.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 04:25 PM

Omega Orders aren't about profit, they're about making a point. Lets look at this from am microeconomic POV instead of macroeconomic.

Lets say I'm a small time drug dealer. Jimmy the Tuna rips me off. So, I kill Jimmy the Tuna. I kill his wife. I kill his parents. I kill his children and his pets. I kill is brother, sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles. I kill his friends. I kill his college roommate who he hasn't seen in 20 years. I short, I wipe him off the face of the Earth.

Is there any direct profit in this for me? No. Dead men can't pay. However, everyone who thinks about ripping me off in the future will have to look back at Jimmy the Tuna and wonder if the risk is worth the reward. I expect that most would decide that it is not. The amount of money I save by not being ripped off in the future far outweighs the amount spent on this little crusade.

The principal is the same with the Omega Order. It is issued for infractions that are bad for everyone's business.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 04:48 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 11 2006, 10:54 AM)

Because even the ZOB is run by people from every AAA, and SK runs it's own banks, that sounds easier than it is.

Not really. I'd already considered this and it changes nothing. If the exchange rate for SK dollars to every other currency immediately becomes infinity for zero, then you've destroyed their currency. Only if the corp were self-sustaining would its own currency be viable. But not even the largest corporate enclaves come close to that and separate enclaves can't work together short of the longest military supply lines the World has ever seen. Secondly, even using a private currency, consider how the economy of a corporation works. It's like a nation in which its national income is entirely based on exports. Nope, freezing a corps' external assets will bring even the AAA's down in short-order.

QUOTE (Rotbart von Dainig)

QUOTE (knasser)

Money, contracts, property rights are not physical things to put behind monowire fences. They are a game of co-operation and the CC is the kid with the ball who can take it and go home.

And as allowing the CC doing so is only a matter of being nice and play along, physical escalation is about the only method to enforce this.

Nope, you've missed my point. The ball is the game itself, not any physical property. Imagine if you were the only person that considered those bits of printed paper in your pocket to have value. Do you think you could exchange them for any goods? Of course not. Money has no intrinsic value, it's an agreement between all who use it. And an Omega Order (arrived at by a majority of the most powerful factions in the world) is an ending of that agreement with the victimised party. It requires no physical enforcement. The same applies to contracts and patents and property. If the court says your patent on a cold rememdy doesn't belong to you, are you going to go round all the people who have bought some and shake the credsticks out of them? It requires no physical enforcement. To put it another way, the GM has said you don't get the karma points and writing them on your character sheet convinces nobody but yourself.

The freezing of assets, restriction of trade is as harsh as you need to get. You've brought the corporation to its knees. The only step beyond that is to start redistributing assets. None of this really requires force. Only phone calls and, worst case scenario, a very small amount of patience. Anything further than these measures merely destroys valuable money and assets.

Brahm has come up with the only convincing reason why corps would call an all out physical war against one of their kind. 4th quarter problem, indeed! *sheesh* Hillarious!

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 05:07 PM

But even if you do seize all of the assets you still have to kill all of the target corporation's executives in a spectaculary brutal and public manner. If the exectuvies can get away with their lives then other exectives might get uppity.
In Shadowrun, corporate exectuives are almost universally crazy. They put their lives on the line on a regular basis and they amass a great deal of power doing so. The only real deterance to these kinds of people is a guarenteed brutal and inescapable death.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 05:20 PM

I'm pretty sure that Saeder-Krupp keeps the majority of it's finances in Nuyen. Corp scrip is only issued internally, so corp employees can shop convienantly at corp shops, and only corp shops.

And remember, what happens when you corner a desperate animal? It fights back. What happens when said desperate animal consists of a dragon who is arguably the top dog amongst Greater Dragons (Ghostwalker might be more powerful, he might not, but Lofwyr can call in fire support in the form of Thor Shots if he and Ghostie mixed it up,) incredibly powerful military units, and orbital weapons?

That's right. You have yet another military force erupting from Germany in a dog-eat-dog fight for death or glory. If you call an Omega on Saeder-Krupp, you'd better be prepared for another World War. Because, while it is true that SK's enclaves may not be able to produce their own food, they have plenty of bullets. And as the old saw goes, when you have bullets, you can always get beans.

So yeah. Call in an Omega on Saeder-Krupp. Throw the world into another world war. By the time it's over, even if Lofwyr isen't the victor, the Megacorporate scheme will be crushed, and the nations that survive will rally and ensure that no profit-hungry corporation ever grows powerful again. There will be no more Corporate Court, there will be no more Megacorporations.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 05:30 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

If the exchange rate for SK dollars to every other currency immediately becomes infinity for zero, then you've destroyed their currency.

Problem is, most of the rescources are Nuyen, anyway.
Corpscript is used for internal accounting, mostly.

QUOTE (knasser)

Nope, you've missed my point.

Nope.

You asssume that the victimzed corporation simply accepts the punishment and backs down - if that' the case, there is no Omega Order.

Omega Orders come in when it doesn't, and uses force to defend it's claims.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 06:17 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 11 2006, 12:30 PM)

QUOTE (knasser)

Nope, you've missed my point.

Nope.

Ah, I'm afraid to inform you that you've missed it again. You still don't get my point at all. I don't assume that the corporation accepts its punishment and backs down, as you say. If I meant that, I would have said that. I'm telling you that it has no choice but to accept the punishment. The corporation cannot use force to defend its claims. Re-read my post about the consequences of asset freezing and trade restrictions and tell me which, if any of them, could be defended against with violence. I'm not being rhetorical here, I'm serious. Explain to me which of the consequences I covered could be defended against with force.

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (knasser)

If the exchange rate for SK dollars to every other currency immediately becomes infinity for zero, then you've destroyed their currency.

Problem is, most of the rescources are Nuyen, anyway.

That's not a problem, that plays into the hands of the CC. I said:

QUOTE (knasser)

The corporate court, under an omega order, can seize and reallocate a corps funds and assets with the stroke of a keyboard.

You said:

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Because [...] SK runs it's own banks, that sounds easier than it is.

I said:

QUOTE (knasser)

Lots of groovy counter-arguments about how internal corp-scrip doesn't help any

You said:

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

most of the rescources are Nuyen, anyway.

You're back where you came from! External assets being frozen.

That aside, though; it would be a foolish corporation that kept too many of its assets sitting doing nothing. You keep as small a warchest as you can get away with and everything else you invest. Mostly in companies that now belong to someone else.

Having said all that, I can't really fault hyzmarca's point about the need to execute the board members. That is the Shadowrun way, after all.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 06:22 PM

You'll have a hard time 'freezing' something that's defended by military units. The Corporate Court is not God. The only way they can execute any directives is by having the members do them. And they can be opposed. An Omega Order is all-out warfare, and the CC may not win.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 06:53 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

Ah, I'm afraid to inform you that you've missed it again.

It may be hard to accept, but sometimes, people don't agree with you even if they understand you... so, no, that's not the case.

QUOTE (knasser)

You still don't get my point at all. I don't assume that the corporation accepts its punishment and backs down, as you say. If I meant that, I would have said that.

You mean it, even if you don't realize it. The problem is that you stop at a certain point, ignoring the further implications.

QUOTE (knasser)

I'm telling you that it has no choice but to accept the punishment. The corporation cannot use force to defend its claims.

Of course it can. There's nothing preventing them anymore, and the legal system breaks apart, resulting in anarchy as in the 'state of nature'.

QUOTE (knasser)

Re-read my post about the consequences of asset freezing and trade restrictions and tell me which, if any of them, could be defended against with violence. I'm not being rhetorical here, I'm serious. Explain to me which of the consequences I covered could be defended against with force.

You hit the point alread - it's all a game of playing along. Every sanction you impose just is a part of that game.
If the offender does not care about it anymore, and just start taking and bartering directly, given enough physical power, others will join them... and they'll create their own game. (There are some prominent examples happening right now.)

QUOTE (knasser)

That's not a problem, that plays into the hands of the CC. I said:

QUOTE (knasser)

The corporate court, under an omega order, can seize and reallocate a corps funds and assets with the stroke of a keyboard.

How exactly do you tell a bank you don't have any influence at all to reroute funds?

QUOTE (knasser)

You're back where you came from! External assets being frozen.

Nope. You just realized that you can't freeze money you don't control anymore... and, unfortunate for you, most of the Nuyen isn't under the direct control of the CC.

The second assumption you made is that everyone follows the orders of the CC - instead of seeing a business opportunity.

QUOTE (knasser)

That aside, though; it would be a foolish corporation that kept too many of its assets sitting doing nothing. You keep as small a warchest as you can get away with and everything else you invest. Mostly in companies that now belong to someone else.

..unless you have reached a certain size, at which point 'as small' becomes irrelevant... see Microsoft.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 07:46 PM

I get what knasser is saying but it is somewhat oversimplified.

Knassers proposal is that you can't defend intangible things with military force. This isn't exactly true because intangible things are tied to tangible things by their very nature.

Nuyen, in reality, are worthless. It is just a bunch of numbers in a bank account. The plastic in a billion-nuyen certified credstick has more actual value than the funds stored inside. Only tangible things have real value. Fiat money serves as a placeholder for material goods, nothing more and nothing less. It helps facilitate trade. Once upon a time if I wanted your bearskin and you wanted a sharktooth that I did not have then I'd have to go around trading until I got a sharkstooth. This could take a very long time. With fiat money, I can buy for your bearskin and you can use the money to trade for a sharktooth. Still, it is the bearskin and the sharktooth that have the value. The money is just a means to an end.

Even if SK has a billion million fafillion shebolubalu million illion yillion nuyen in the bank this does no good if no one will accept their imaginary electronic numbers as payment for goods and services.

What knasser is missing, however, is that it is possible to force trade with military force or the threat of it. Consider Japan. For centuries Japan was a highly isolationist nation with little contact with the outside world. Then, one day, Mathew Perry shows up with a fleet of warships and suggests that Japan should open up trade with the west and Japan opened up trade with the west. Now, Japan was a tiny isolationist backwater country with practically no power or standing in world affairs at the time but if the guy from Friends can do it I would think an absurdly powerful and ancient dragon would have a decent chance at doing better.

Most of SK's assets will be hard. Very few corporations keep much of their assets liquid. Even with trading frozen they should have enough hard assets to successfully prosecute a major war of aggression. At that point they would be less like a corporation and more like a classical imperial power. But imperialism does work in the short term. Seizing material assets by force usually results in more profit then buying the same assets, too.

Of course, the chances of the CC issuing an Omega Order against SK lies somewhere between Slim and None; and just to the left of Self-Propelled Levitating Asses.

Smaller corporations are less able to cope but it is the ultimate threat of irresistible military might that prevents the As and AAs from just ignoring the CCs rulings and doing their own things. The only difference between AAAs and AAs is the Corporate Court Seat and there are many more AAs than there are AAAs. A trust of AAs could easily rival the CC in economic and military power so it is rather important that they work to maintain their status as the governing body of all extraterritorial megacorps. Government is defined by a monopoly on the use of violence 'gainst the governed.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 08:27 PM

QUOTE

Once upon a time if I wanted your bearskin and you wanted a sharktooth that I did not have then I'd have to go around trading until I got a sharkstooth. This could take a very long time.

Or go kill a shark...

QUOTE

Government is defined by a monopoly on the use of violence gainst the governed.

If you're quoting someone, he's a genius. If you just made that up, you need to go in a quotebook.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 11 2006, 09:10 PM

There is no way there will ever be an omega order issued on SK. Apart from being to smart to get in a position like this, Lofwyr can blackmail some of the less powerful corporations on the CC that he will take them down, if they issue such an order.
Even if SK would be put down, which is far from certain (*), Lofwyr can still make his threat real and take some of the AAA with him.

(*) I read about Lofwyr and SK influence and power over the past weeks (for a campaign).

Basically, an omega order is like an (today) UN resolution with more backup... unless issued against an AAA Corp (where it would be like an UN resolution ).

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 09:21 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Knassers proposal is that you can't defend intangible things with military force. This isn't exactly true because intangible things are tied to tangable things by their very nature.

And the bottom line ultimatly depends on those tangable things... that's why Aztechnology still prospers.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

If you're quoting someone, he's a genius. If you just made that up, you need to go in a quotebook.

Hobbes 'state of nature' indeed is a basic work of ethics.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 11 2006, 09:25 PM

Consider an competitive environment where all that avoids a final battle is the consent of the participants not to go there (aka megacorp competition).

Now consider a group of the largest players declaring war on one corp.

The coordination of attacks alone is deadly. The CC has to do nothing. Every corp who wants something the target has will strike, as the target can´t retaliate against so many attacks at the same time.

An omega order just removes any constraint. Once freed, the sharks do their work. You don´t want to be target of the week.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 09:32 PM

Attacking SK, even in a coordinated wave, is suicidal. If I were on the board of directors of a corporation which was trying to do that and the measure passed over my head, I'd be jumping ship and selling all of my shares to Lofwyr for one nuyen. (Not apiece, one nuyen. Total.)

Simply put, it's suicide. Even in the event of the best-case scenario, you smash Saeder-Krupp's faccilities and properties. You incurr massive, distinctly unprofitable losses in doing so, and sieze roundabout nothing, because the German Dragon pursued a policy of Scorched Earth, much like the previous draconic German figure. Then he starts showing up at your board of director meetings and roasting everybody alive.

In short, you've succeeded in erasing yourselves. Don't fool yourselves into thinking it won't happen. He's a fucking Greater Dragon, he's Initiated more times than you can shake a stick at, and his Masking is off the charts. He literally gets to keep throwing dice until he succeeds, and any of your successes he make you re-roll. He could convince you he's you, and you're an imposter.

In short, you're phucked.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jun 11 2006, 09:39 PM

The real power of an Omega Order is in the threat. There's a lot of assumption here that an Omega Order needs to destroy a megacorporation wholly and that's not really necessary. As has been said here already, the megacorps exist to make money. Even a weakly-enforced Omega Order will cost the target megacorporation billions, or trillions, of nuyen.

Why do they have to destroy everything? Cut the megacorporation off from loans, the kind of big loans that only the ZOG Bank can fulfill (as mentioned in Corporate Shadowfiles). Increase the interest rate of their existing loans. Freeze what intangible assets you can. It doesn't matter much that you can't destroy everything, that megacorporation is going to be bleeding profusely. Their stock will fall through the floor, they will not have the capital or borrowing power to expand, and they will lose competitive edge. Lofwyr could circle the wagons and protect his physical assets with guns and tanks all he wants; as long as he is doing that, he's not making money. And a corporation can't survive without making money.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

As has been said here already, the megacorps exist to make money.

Usually - that's what makes SK a bad example, as it is Lofwyrs tool (lacking traded stock, too).

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 11 2006, 09:54 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Attacking SK, even in a coordinated wave, is suicidal.

Lofwyrs http://www.geocities.com/flanker562/SSG/SSG.htm, among other military assets, would probably retaliate and take out most of their targets, which would be the executives and other vital assets of opposing corps.
Again, I can't see how the CC has the guts to to order an Omega Order

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 09:55 PM

Demonseed, you're ignoring the simple fact that if you cut Lofwyr off from financial options to pursue his interests, he will pursue conventional options.

By "conventional options" to pursue his interets, I mean the same options that were pursued by Alexander, Ceaser Augustus, Commodore Perry, Kaiser Wilhelm, and Fuhrer Hitler.

You will turn Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries into the Fourth Reich!

Are you failing to comprehend this or something? An army, a Megacorporation, a Nation, and a Dragon march on two abstracted things. Bullets and beans. And if you tell them they can't buy beans, they will fall back on the old axiom that if you have bullets, you can always get your beans. And Saeder-Krupp and Lofwyr have a great deal of stock in bullets.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 10:01 PM

Rotbart, I'm quite happy for people to disagree with me, so long as they know what they're disagreeing with, and I was not convinced that you understood my point because you again said that the corporation would "use force to defend its claims." Contracts, bank accounts, copyrights cannot be defended with force because they are agreements. The corporate court being comprised of the most powerful corporations (who must be in some sort of agreement, incidentally, to have issued the OO in the first place), is the ultimate arbiter of these agreements' validity. Everyone, barring the OO'ed corp is going to side with the CC.

hyzmarca, we agree on the facts, but not each other's conclusions, I guess.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

What knasser is missing, however, is that it is possible to force trade with military force or the threat of it. Consider Japan. For centuries Japan was a highly isolationist nation with little contact with the outside world. Then, one day, Mathew Perry shows up with a fleet of warships and suggests that Japan should oppen up trade with the west and Japan opened up trade with the west. Now, Japan was a tiny isolationist backwater country with practicaly power or standing in world affairs at the time but if the guy from Friends can do it I would think an absurdly powerful and ancient dragon would have a decent chance at doing better.

LOL! "The One Where Chandler Enforces Capitalistic Values Under Threat of Artillery Bombardment."

Okay, we're agreed that a corp can't prevent the CC actions by force. But I'm not convinced about your next step. Is it possible that any single corp, even an AAA could sustain itself through military endeavour? I would say that it isn't. I'd list the immediate points as follows:

Funding: Firstly, military adventures are one of the most costly endeavours that a society can engage in. Traditionally, to fund a war effort, a government borrows large amounts of capital. This has been done since at least medieval times. An alternative is to levy an extra tax on your peasantry (sorry, I mean citizens). The first isn't going to be an option for a corp under an OO, and the second isn't possible for a corp at all, seeing as it isn't economically set up that way. Fighting a war without financial backing is, as my favourite philosopher would put it, A Very Worrying Thing.
Economic Structure: Following neatly on from the last point, how is a corp's economy structured. Assuming that we're talking about one of the bigger ones that has extraterritoriality, then what you have is essentially a nation state whos near-entire economic structure is based around exports. The moment such an entity faces trade sanctions, it means disaster. The entire basis of your economy is gone. Do you recall the Great Depression in the USA? That's what would happen in minature.
Dispersal: Unlike a nation that wishes to defend itself, a corporation is not based in any single area. Furthermore, given the extreme pariah status it now enjoys, it can consider its territories interspersed with factions ranging from resentful down to actively hostile. The corp now has to cede large parts of its former domain. This isn't the biggest factor in this list, but it should be borne in mind that the battle-front a corp must hold is an unusual one.
Alliances: Most nations at war have allies that, if they wont actively fight with you, will at least continue to trade and sell you supplies. But the OO'ed corp is a marked man and you really don't want to ally yourself with him. Even if you like the corp, your economy is tied irrevocably into the international currency markets and, as far as you are concerned, the corp is flat broke. Their credit is zero. All they could do would be to offer you goods in lieu of cash. Not a very good system.
Aims and Objectives: This may be the biggest problem of all. In a war, you need a very clear set of objectives. For an invading nation, it is usually seizing some useful territory. Perhaps rich in some resource such as, oh I don't know, oil? *cough* If the territory is nearby you will annex it. If it is remote, then you will install some compliant government that knows it depends on your military support to remain in power *cough cough cough*. In either case though, there is an end in sight. But for the OO'ed corp trying to seize whatever resources it can to sustain itself, there doesn't seem to be such a prospect. It's unlikely it will ever beat its enemies into rescinding the OO. Essentially, it can die fast or it can die slow.
Loyalty. This overlaps with the very first point, but have the corps employees signed up for a war? In a normal war of defense, the citizens are defending a home land, family and friends. Yes, corporate loyalty and all that, but I can't believe that it extends quite so far as sticking around when the flit hits the shan in quite such a dramatic fashion. A corporate employee, likely highly skilled, has a much greater ability to flee to another corp or country, even taking friends and family with him. Heck, it could be as simple as walking out of the gates. Those with families will have the first priority of getting them out to safety. Those without families will have less reason to stick around for their own sake. And what of those employees that did sign up to fight - the mercenaries and the solders? Bear in mind that the corp can't pay them now in anything other than their own corp-scrip so there go any mercenary forces. All you have are your own soldiery. Faced with the odds stacked against them and no real "homeland" you can expect a high desertion rate.

Of course all of the above varies a bit with which corp is involved. But I think it's reasonable to say that any corp that ranks AA or less, is unlikely even to fight. Even if the execs wanted to, I can't see any security force or employee base sticking around. They just don't have the resources to try and sustain themselves through military venture. As to the AAA's, I don't think it is viable for them either, for the reasons outlined above.

So given all of this, that's why I see the Omega Order as being a freeze the assets, restrict trade sort of ruling rather than an open season of physical strikes. If a corp resonded with military action and resource grabs, then they would lose and they would know that would lose so not even try. A corporation exists on trade and they can't make up for the loss of that with pilfering resources from others. Hyzmarca - I take your point about forcing trade, but in your example, Japan was the isolated party refusing to do business. In this case, the isolated party is the corp and the rest of the world refusing to do business. The situation is far more like Iraq under sanctions that it is Japan.

So I stand by my initial statement. An omega order being some sort of open season where other corps use violence to get the assets of the OO'ed corp, is unrealistic. I don't mind dragons and spirits in my game, because they are internally consistent. But your version of the OO bothers me because it is inconsistant with what we know of the setting and of the way business and international trade works.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jun 11 2006, 10:07 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 11 2006, 04:46 PM)

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Jun 11 2006, 11:39 PM)

As has been said here already, the megacorps exist to make money.

Usually - that's what makes SK a bad example, as it is Lofwyrs tool (lacking traded stock, too).

True, but unless Lofwyr is absorbing global megacorporate-sized losses with his dragon horde, Saeder-Krupp is still in business to make money. Lofwyr doesn't strike me as a philanthopic idealist, so I don't think he's burning through his personal assets to keep Saeder-Krupp afloat. His personal wealth could be used to shore up Saeder-Krupp in the event of an Omega Order (though that's all speculation, we really have no hard estimate of the wealth of a dragon horde), but for how long? The Corporate Court/ZOG Bank doesn't have to drop the interest rate hikes against S-K, it doesn't have to reinstate S-K loans, and it doesn't have to unfreeze assets, ever.

Now, sure, Lowfyr can retaliate and start killing people. But that's not going to accomplish much and it's certainly not going to make Saeder-Krupp any money. The retaliation might put some fear into the Corporate Court before they issue an Omega Order, but the whole "mutual assured bankruptcy" also serves to keep entities like Saeder-Krupp playing by the rules. That's why the power of the Omega Order is more in the threat than the actual use.

QUOTE

Are you failing to comprehend this or something? An army, a Megacorporation, a Nation, and a Dragon march on two abstracted things. Bullets and beans. And if you tell them they can't buy beans, they will fall back on the old axiom that if you have bullets, you can always get your beans. And Saeder-Krupp and Lofwyr have a great deal of stock in bullets.

Lofwyr's not the only one with bullets, though. Keep in mind that the Corporate Court is formed of the Big Ten, of which Saeder-Krupp is only one. But neither Saeder-Krupp nor the other Nine want that kind of shooting war. No one wins if that happens. And so they continue to play by the rules.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 11 2006, 10:11 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

[*]Loyalty. This overlaps with the very first point, but have the corps employees signed up for a war? In a normal war of defense, the citizens are defending a home land, family and friends. Yes, corporate loyalty and all that, but I can't believe that it extends quite so far as sticking around when the flit hits the shan in quite such a dramatic fashion. A corporate employee, likely highly skilled, has a much greater ability to flee to another corp or country, even taking friends and family with him. Heck, it could be as simple as walking out of the gates. Those with families will have the first priority of getting them out to safety. Those without families will have less reason to stick around for their own sake. And what of those employees that did sign up to fight - the mercenaries and the solders? Bear in mind that the corp can't pay them now in anything other than their own corp-scrip so there go any mercenary forces. All you have are your own soldiery. Faced with the odds stacked against them and no real "homeland" you can expect a high desertion rate.

For some reason reading this makes me think from my history classes about how the Catholic Church would use excommunication to keep rulers in check. I know, the OO is not quite excommunication but it's something I thought was interesting because similar to excommunication, the corp may lose some support of their own folks as they jump ship. Many VP's may think now's the time to head to greener pastures, taking as much of their support and resources with them. Some subsidiaries of the corp may jump too.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 10:14 PM

Knasser, you don't seem to understand. A Megacorp is essentially a Superpowre unto itself. It has born-and-bred citizens, who will be loyal to the end. It has military assets, extremely significant ones - significant enough to consolidate at their main place of operations and expand, conquer what lands they need to in order to become self-sufficient, and continue outward. And like any good Superpower, it has Weapons of Mass Destruction.

This is where studying your history beomes important. Mutually Assured Destruction. Nukes aren't the only WMD in play, but the outcome is the same.

Let's say you pull out your particular WMD: Economic destruction to the point of unviability. You could pull this on a AA. Maybe even on Lone Star, though I woulden't wanna be the one telling them they don't exist anymore. But go ahead.

Drop your economic-nuke on Lofwyr. He has real nukes to drop in return, not to mention Thor Shots and whatever else the wily old wyrm has under his scales. In your best-case scenario, you've assured the destructive of Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries. You've also assured destructution past the point of recovery unto Ares Macrotechnology, Aztechnology (And Aztlan, but they're pretty much synonyms,) Evo Corporation, Horizon, Mitsuhama Computer Technologies, NEoNET, Renraku Computer Systems, Shiwase Corporation, Wuxing, and the Zurich Orbital Habitat in addition to Saeder-Krupp Heavy Industries.

Congratulations. You've caused the Corp War, and ended society as we know it. And Lofwyr probably survived the fighting, too.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 10:15 PM

QUOTE (Ryu)

The coordination of attacks alone is deadly. The CC has to do nothing. Every corp who wants something the target has will strike, as the target can´t retaliate against so many attacks at the same time.

And if my corporation wants Novatechs patent on a flu remedy, which part of their offices do I strike? And if I want that juicy telecomms contract with the city council, which executive do I kidnap?

Talking about physical force to seize a corporation's assets is meaningless. Selling second-hand computers is a poor poor fraction of a working corporations worth.

And why would an office of a corporation fight anyway? Your a viable business or sub-division of a targetted corporation. The CC puts you up for auction to other corps, one of which buys you. There's a risk they'll lay you off or transfer you, but heck, it's a lot lot better than having a missile come through the window. If the CC says your now legally part of Renraku instead of Novatech, well... dōzo!

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 10:16 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 11 2006, 04:21 PM)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

If you're quoting someone, he's a genius. If you just made that up, you need to go in a quotebook.

Hobbes 'state of nature' indeed is a basic work of ethics.

I do believe that Hobbes erred in his assumption that the state of nature was ever left. Indeed, I doubt that it is possible to leave the state of nature. However, the "war of all against all" naturally results in alliances since there is strength in numbers. Likewise, it is natural for people to ally under the strongest tyrants because in strength there is a measure of safety.

The quote itself is a liberal paraphrase of Max Webster who postulated that "a state is a human community that claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory" in 1918.

This definition of government is commonly accepted in social and political sciences although they place a great deal of emphasis on the term "legitimate". I find this to be somewhat fallacious wordplay. In the end, the legitimacy of an act of violence is determined solely by the party that is capable of committing the greatest acts of violence.

QUOTE (knasser)

And if I want that juicy telecoms contract with the city council, which executive do I kidnap?

Presumably, if you blow up Novatech's telecom facilities the city council will have to negotiate a contract with someone else or do without until you decide to not blow up Novatech's telecom facilities anymore.

But that isn't the point of the Omega Order. The point of the Omega order is to kill the motherfuckers in the most brutal and spectacular way possible so that everyone who sees know not to do whatever the heck they did to set you off.

It isn't about profit. It is about punishment.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jun 11 2006, 10:22 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

What does that get Lowfyr? In all likelihood, he's destroyed his corporation. If not himself. At best, he's created a military empire ruling over a scorched earth. Why would he want that? He was never in the business of running governments to begin with. If he was, he could have worked on that when he first emerged during the Awakening.

Or...he could see the writing on the wall and back down from whatever infraction caused an Omega Order to be levied against Saeder-Krupp. He takes some short term business losses while the Corporate Court renegotiates with Saeder-Krupp and comes to an agreement on reducing interest rates, re-instating loans, and the like. Everything goes back to normal. The world is not destroyed, Saeder-Krupp is not destroyed, and Lofwyr can bounce back and begin making money again.

He'd have to be one dumb lizard not to take that deal. Of course, the truly smart lizard never gets an Omega Order brought down on him to begin with. There's very little in the world that is worth that headache.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 11 2006, 10:36 PM

Hm, I would like to discuss what could happen in case of an omega order issued on one of the (military) weaker AAA Corps (not that one of them would risk that). I really have no clue...

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 11 2006, 05:14 PM)

Knasser, you don't seem to understand. A Megacorp is essentially a Superpowre unto itself.

I don't think it is. Even an AAA megacorp is not a rival militarily for a modern Western nation of today. Guestimate some comparisons. The land mass occupied by the AAA megacorp is still only going to be a fraction of what a true nation occupies. They have enclaves, the odd arcology and occasional large sites of special nature, such as an agricultural area or oil fields. Land mass matters in warfare as it gives you terrain to pass maneuvre in, fortify and, most importantly, to hamper the enemy. Furthermore the territory of the megacorp is distributed. Essentially they have a large number of isolated bases buried deep in enemy territory. The military term for this is fucked.

As to "born-and-bred" citizens, again the population base of even a megacorp is going to be tiny compared to even a modern western nation. Can you imagine what losing a million people would be like for a corporation? It would be devastating. As to having the resources to conquer what lands they need - laughable. Look at the USA's invasion of Iraq to pick a timely example. The country is in a state of civil war with the US forces keeping their losses down by the radical tactic of staying in their bases. If a true super-power has trouble maintaining an occupation without opposition from a more modern and armed nation (Iraq's military was severely curtailed at the time of the invasion), how well do you think a far smaller force, with no financial backing would fare against a modern force?

And I disagree with your glib assertion that they're all ready to die for their beloved corp. As I pointed out earlier, both the capability and the motivation for leaving for safer places are much increased for the employees of a corp than for the citizens of a nation.

As to the nuclear option. A megacorp will have this technology, but to use it would be to kill yourself. You can be certain that if a megacorp launched a nuclear strike against another then the initiating megacorp would be bombed out of existence. So you're sitting there in your head office and saying to yourself, I've had enough of life, I'm going to kill myself and take all my friends, family, colleagues and home city with me by pressing this button? Let's hope not.

And finally, the big one. There's a radio show in the UK where they play a game called Mornington Crescent. It's not worth going into here, but the first person to say Mornington Crescent wins. I feel like people here are playing the same game but with the word Lofwyr. Whatever argument or case you put forward, somebody shouts "Lofwyr" and then sits back with a satisfied smirk on their face. God, if simsense technology were real, half of you lot would have X-rated sims with titles like "Lofwyr Lights Your Fire." Get a room already! TWO things. One, Lofwyr is not the head of every corp out there. We can discuss the scenario of an Omega Order without every counter argument being "that wouldn't work against Saeder-Krupp." Secondly, Lofwyr is not God Almighty. He's a dragon, i.e. a big lump of muscle and bone with a nice line in magical powers. Tough yes, smart yes, but he's not going to fight against an army on his own. Hell, he could kill a thousand people every day without even a holiday and by the end of the year, you know what? It wouldn't make a dent in a real and large army such as would be fielded by megacorporation enemies.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 10:53 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

Well, the only way SK gets an Omega Order against it would be for Alamais to use subtle draconic mind control on the highest officers of all the other AAAs over a period of many years. At that point I think that Lowfyr would decalre himself Fuhrer and conquer Europe just to piss his brother off.

Butterblume, the two canon examples of an Omega Order and its very name suggest that it is a death sentence. I presume that it would be a death sentence even for a militarilary weak AAA. Only a great military power could hope to stave off the other Big 9.

I imagine that it would be rather simple. The AAA would be decapitated with the brutal and public deaths of all its executive officers (probably using thor shots or evil mutant demon cows). Then its assets would be seized and redistributed in some manner.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 10:58 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

its very name suggest that it is a death sentence.

Not necessarily. They could have just reached their 24th type of order. The next one might be the Omega-Alpha Order, followed by the Omega-Beta Order, Omega-Gamma Order, etc.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 11:04 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

So, basically, you were the one not getting my point?

QUOTE (knasser)

Contracts, bank accounts, copyrights cannot be defended with force because they are agreements.

Even that's only partially true - that's why discussions on the internet are so much fun:
There, and only there it's impossible to force people to agree with you.

But the point was more basic - all those immaterial goods are just there to be substituted for material goods... which can be aquired in other ways, too.

QUOTE (knasser)

Everyone, barring the OO'ed corp is going to side with the CC.

Every AAA, if you are lucky. An all-out war scenario, which an omega order is, might frighten some corps enough to jump sides... especially those AA, which are nearly as big as AA sometimes and just lack a CC seat.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

At best, he's created a military empire ruling over a scorched earth. Why would he want that?

..because he is a megalomanic, aiming for world domination and has shown no real interest in ecology?

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

Or...he could see the writing on the wall and back down from whatever infraction caused an Omega Order to be levied against Saeder-Krupp. He takes some short term business losses while the Corporate Court renegotiates with Saeder-Krupp and comes to an agreement on reducing interest rates, re-instating loans, and the like.

There seems to be a slight misunderstanding what an Omega Order is.
It's not financial punishement... it's a death sentence, as it's the last option of the CC.
There is no coming back from an OO - it's issued when all those punishements before failed.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

I do believe that Hobbes erred in his assumption that the state of nature was ever left. Indeed, I doubt that it is possible to leave the state of nature.

IIRC, it wasn't so much about leaving it, but about a gradual process of social stabilisation.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 11:13 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 11 2006, 06:04 PM)

QUOTE (knasser)

Contracts, bank accounts, copyrights cannot be defended with force because they are agreements.

Even that's only partially true - that's why discussions on the internet are so much fun:
There, and only there it's impossible to force people to agree with you.

Obviously, someone hasn't seen Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

You can't stop people from disagreeing you on the internet but you can track them down, fly to their homes, and beat the living crap out of them.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 11:29 PM

QUOTE

=Knasser]

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 11 2006, 05:14 PM)

Knasser, you don't seem to understand. A Megacorp is essentially a Superpowre unto itself.

Landmass dosen't really matter on the battlefield of 2070. This isen't WWII where everything was Infantry and Lots Of Them. Then again, it won't matter. All Megacorps have one "home turf", that's rather large, and when placed into this situation, will become much larger as they absorb the surrounding land.

QUOTE

As to "born-and-bred" citizens, again the population base of even a megacorp is going to be tiny compared to even a modern western nation. Can you imagine what losing a million people would be like for a corporation? It would be devastating. As to having the resources to conquer what lands they need - laughable. Look at the USA's invasion of Iraq to pick a timely example. The country is in a state of civil war with the US forces keeping their losses down by the radical tactic of staying in their bases. If a true super-power has trouble maintaining an occupation without opposition from a more modern and armed nation (Iraq's military was severely curtailed at the time of the invasion), how well do you think a far smaller force, with no financial backing would fare against a modern force?

The Megacorp has an advantage the U.S. does not.

It may be as brutal as it likes. It has already been issued a death sentance. It no longer cares what others think. Any territory they occupy that lacks significant regular military force will be rather swiftly subjugated. All else failing, they'll simply nuke the local population out of existance and extract what resources they wish (assuming the resources are hard, like ores or petrochemicals) with drones. Think the Yucatan engagement, only they don't care about preventing news from getting out, and they're simply using WMDs indiscriminately.

QUOTE

As to the nuclear option. A megacorp will have this technology, but to use it would be to kill yourself. You can be certain that if a megacorp launched a nuclear strike against another then the initiating megacorp would be bombed out of existence. So you're sitting there in your head office and saying to yourself, I've had enough of life, I'm going to kill myself and take all my friends, family, colleagues and home city with me by pressing this button? Let's hope not.

A Megacorp is already dead when the Omega gets called on them. They're marked for destruction, their officers will be dragged into the streets and shot. In light of that, there's no reason not to go nuke and take the other guys down with you.

It's very simple. Imagine some gang-banger and you both draw at the same time. A classic Mexican standoff. But he gets stupid, or maybe he's trippin' or something, and he shoots you. Once. Through the chest. You know you're dead, you've got a great big sucking chest wound, and medical attention is hours away.

What do you day? Just lay there and take it? Or blow his ass away with you? I'd hope it should be obvious that the answer is take him down with you.

Same thing, just with nukes and thor shots.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 11:32 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 11 2006, 06:04 PM)

QUOTE (knasser)

Contracts, bank accounts, copyrights cannot be defended with force because they are agreements.

Even that's only partially true - that's why discussions on the internet are so much fun:
There, and only there it's impossible to force people to agree with you.

Obviously, someone hasn't see Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

You can't stop people from disagreeing you on the internet but you can track them down, fly to their homes, and beat the living crap out of them.

Which, incidentally, is what I imagine happens to people who flame Lofwyr on Shadowland.

Posted by: -X- Jun 12 2006, 12:08 AM

I've never thought of Lofwyr as all-powerful really. In fact in some ways he strikes me as one of the weaker dragons just because for all his attempts at being covert, he really isn't all that subtle at all.

His threats are almost always obvious and how he follows them up is fairly uninspired.

Compared to say, Lung or Hestaby. He's not even on the same chart as Big D, and thats even after Dunk's death.

He's the most obvious draconic threat, but by far the most dangerous. He has massive resources to call on, but they are almost all resources that are easy to point to. Assume for a moment that Hestaby's resources are nearly equal, but more subtle. Now which one is scarier?

Lofwyr had to really stick his astral neck out just to best Alamaise, who comes across as kind of a chump of a dragon. (Though he did manage to play dead, and play fruitcake tag with Dunkelzahn)

I guess I don't give the guy enough credit.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Jun 12 2006, 08:47 AM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

Yes, but the Corporate Court is going to issue just about every level of punishment before an Omega Order first. Keep in mind that an Omega Order has never been issued against a megacorp; the closest incident was Operation Reciprocity against Aztechnology. And the Azzies backed down after that. Megacorps--even ones with god complexes--aren't stupid.

Posted by: Brahm Jun 12 2006, 12:45 PM

Operation Reciprocity wasn't an actual OO? I thought it was. A limited scope one, or it didn't have time to fully develop to full scope before Aztlan backed down, but one none-the-less. Basically a warning shot across the bow. Well more like a warning shot between the cabin boy's eyes, but basically a show of intent.

Posted by: knasser Jun 12 2006, 06:21 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

I'm saying that an Omega Order being all out war doesn't make sense. The other corps can already get everything they want from the victim without having to deploy military force (see numerous previous posts on this). Therefore any agression begins with the targeted corp. That is why the targeted corp has the choice of how far to push things militarily and that is why they wouldn't decide to kill off everything they hold dear with a nuclear strike.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Landmass remains strategically important no matter how fast your army moves - you need somewhere to base yourself, draw resources from and to fortify; and the more this territory is squeezed down to little bases, the more you find yourself at a strategic disadvantage as you become surrounded by enemy controlled territory. You've also taken only half of my argument - when comparing a megacorp to a modern developed nation, you have to consider that it has a much smaller population, less able to absorb losses.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

The Megacorp has an advantage the U.S. does not.

It may be as brutal as it likes. It has already been issued a death sentance. It no longer cares what others think.

Ridiculous. A megacorp is filled with human beings. Many of them may have been brought up by the corp, but do you really think there's not a whiff of protest when the corp takes a policy of "nuking the local population". If the megacorp adopts a policy of "we're already dead so it doesn't matter", there is going to be a huge majority of people with friends and families who say "we're not and it bloody well does!" The vast majority of people in a megacorp are workers in various sites and offices who will be more accepting of a different logo being placed outside their building than of being caught up in some suicidal swan song that a mad CEO wants to indulge in. And remember the greed - the other corporations don't wish to bomb the offices, they want to own them and get the profit themselves. Less of a motivation for corp employees to commit suicide over.

So at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum: the agressors have no need to resort to physical assault to destroy a corp and claim their assets, and indeed would get less of a return if they did. Therefore the only instigator of violence would be the targeted corp, but (a) this is unlikely because it would result in far greater death and suffering for the victim corp and (b) if a corp is attacking your nation or your own corp, you don't need some special dispensation from the CC to defend yourself. There is no need that is consistent with the setting, for an Omega Order to be anything other than the freezing of assets, prevention of trade, and possibly redistribution.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 12 2006, 07:18 PM

double post

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 12 2006, 07:21 PM

Quotes from System Failure help illuminate the nature of the Omega Order.

QUOTE

Villiers turned and waved across the room to Novatech’s Corporate Court representative, Justice Lynn Osborne. Osborne nodded and left the room to file a request with the Corporate Court to issue an Omega Order on Dankwalther and his few remaining holdings. It had a high chance of success, as Dankwalther had a litany of illegal attempts to manipulate global markets for his own gain.

QUOTE

Following the latest intelligence reports, subject was located at 23:06 EST. Orbital option was unanimously approved at 23:11, after ZOG analysis estimated he’d be gone before Omega ground team could be activated. Subject was successfully terminated at 23:16.

In this case, the order was issued against an individual rather than a corporation but notice how it was carried out. They droped a Thor Shot on the guy. The cost of building a Thor Shot and launching it into orbit is probably in the tens of millions of nuyen. Rocket fuel ain't cheap and these things are massive by design . They used one to kill a single person. Profit was not on their minds.

In some ways the CC is similar to a Corporate version of a war crimes tribunal. Like crimes agianst humanity the general punishment for crimes against corpority is death. Not just finiancial death but physical death, as well.

In Omega Order isn't all out war. It is an execution.

Also notice that this execution was carried out using the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaftsbank's own resources and under the Corporate Court's direct supervision.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 12 2006, 07:27 PM

It's all-out war if you try to issue it against a Megacorp or a Greater Dragon.

Sorry Knasser. But your saying

[quote]The other corps can already get everything they want from the victim without having to deploy military force (see numerous previous posts on this) (emphasis mine)[/qoute]

is bullshit, because your "numerous previous posts on this" have all been defeated in detail. Simply put, there is no way short of warfare to take what a Megacorporation has. Sieze their assets? You can't do that; their assets are in their own banks; banks whose officers will tell you to shove it up your ass. Try to sieze their property? The warehouse manager will call in an HTR while you're trying to move the stuff out. Try to kill it's executives? You'll have to get through the security first.

Sorry, Knasser. An Omega Order means warfare when it's called on a corp. And if you try to prevent them from doing any outside trade, they will become a military power.

Remember, it's all well and good to say "We're going to Omega you, your stuff is now ours", but you have no power to back it up. You're basically depending on the other megacorporations cluster-fucking the targeted corp. Only it dosen't always work that way, and even if it does, they're going to take some if not all of the others down with them, depending on which corp is in question.

Posted by: Brahm Jun 12 2006, 07:30 PM

@hyzmarca

You sure that it was ZOG's own? It doesn't say that in those quotes, just that ZOG oked it (I think it might have been SKs, don't have the book handy right now though to give the exact quote that implies that). Also this is obviously an execution....because it is against an individual. But notice "and his few remaining holdings", you don't execute remaining holdings. Maybe you don't call it a war when it only lasts 5 minutes, but that is just a matter of juration of operations.

Also the shadowtalk at the end of SF leaves the door open to there being some financial scraps left laying around.

Posted by: knasser Jun 12 2006, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 12 2006, 02:27 PM)

Sorry Knasser. But your saying

QUOTE

The other corps can already get everything they want from the victim without having to deploy military force (see numerous previous posts on this) (emphasis mine)

is bullshit, because your "numerous previous posts on this" have all been defeated in detail. Simply put, there is no way short of warfare to take what a Megacorporation has. Sieze their assets? You can't do that; their assets are in their own banks; banks whose officers will tell you to shove it up your ass. Try to sieze their property? The warehouse manager will call in an HTR while you're trying to move the stuff out. Try to kill it's executives? You'll have to get through the security first.

Sorry, Knasser. An Omega Order means warfare when it's called on a corp. And if you try to prevent them from doing any outside trade, they will become a military power.

Remember, it's all well and good to say "We're going to Omega you, your stuff is now ours", but you have no power to back it up. You're basically depending on the other megacorporations cluster-fucking the targeted corp. Only it dosen't always work that way, and even if it does, they're going to take some if not all of the others down with them, depending on which corp is in question.

Shadowdragon, you keep using this word "sorry" but I do not think it means what you think it means.

My bullshit post as you call it, has not been defeated in "detail". There's a marked lack of detail in the counter-arguments. You say:

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Sieze their assets? You can't do that; their assets are in their own banks; banks whose officers will tell you to shove it up your ass.

But earlier in the thread you said:

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

I'm pretty sure that Saeder-Krupp keeps the majority of it's finances in Nuyen.

Still, ignoring the contradiction and going with your latest argument, I've addressed this earlier:

QUOTE (knasser)

I'd already considered this and it changes nothing. If the exchange rate for SK dollars to every other currency immediately becomes infinity for zero, then you've destroyed their currency. Only if the corp were self-sustaining would its own currency be viable. But not even the largest corporate enclaves come close to that and separate enclaves can't work together short of the longest military supply lines the World has ever seen. Secondly, even using a private currency, consider how the economy of a corporation works. It's like a nation in which its national income is entirely based on exports. Nope, freezing a corps' external assets will bring even the AAA's down in short-order.

You also said:

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Try to sieze their property? The warehouse manager will call in an HTR while you're trying to move the stuff out.

I've already addressed this in my very first post:

QUOTE (knasser)

and later:

QUOTE (knasser)

If Big L's money is transferred to other banks and corporations what do you think he's going to do to stop it? Burn to death the bank clerk who typed the instructions into the computer? If the CC says that the patent SK owned now belongs to Renraku and Novatech what's he going to do? Go round every shop and factory that "infringes" it and demand some cred-sticks like a fat scaly racketeer?

Quite frankly, who cares about seizing a warehouse of goods? The deed now says that they're yours and you can borrow against that asset if you wish. The matter of clearing out the criminals who remain there is a minor problem. Especially now that they're no longer getting paid.

So if you want my posts to be "defeated in detail" please supply the detail rather than just say it's bullshit.

Now having said all that, it seems that hyzmarca has a relevant point in that System Failure apparently defines the an Omega Order in this way. I've never read that. If this makes it cannon, then that's a shame as it doesn't make logical sense.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 12 2006, 08:36 PM

Ok, I'm calling shenanigans and a cessation of all arguments between you two until you can figure out how to properly format your posts. Then you can resume your completely futile argument.

Posted by: knasser Jun 12 2006, 08:43 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

Ok, I'm calling shenanigans and a cessation of all arguments between you two until you can figure out how to properly format your posts. Then you can resume your completely futile argument.

Done. Let the futility commence!

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 12 2006, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

QUOTE (Geekkake @ Jun 12 2006, 03:36 PM)

Ok, I'm calling shenanigans and a cessation of all arguments between you two until you can figure out how to properly format your posts. Then you can resume your completely futile argument.

Done. Let the futility commence!

Fine. Fine! Also, I think you both have a little right and a little wrong.

I've said most of this before, but it seems like the most likely situation, and is somewhere in between you two. My view of it is that the Corporate Court washes its hands of the corp in question completely. That includes ZOG and ZOG-affiliated/loyal banking services and the immediate demand for payment of all outstanding loans from those institutions (companies, especially big ones, loan and get loans all the time). It also includes all protection, though that may be less relevant.

At the point an Omega Order is issued, most of the corporate management has probably already jumped ship, frantically dumping their personal stock, as I've mentioned before. This will include a great many executives and middle managers with their ear to the ground. With a company losing so much money so fast from loan defaults, stock dumps, etc., they can't pay their employees. Low-level employees and security get laid off. Facilities will get closed down, losing their extraterritorial status. Those facilities will get sold off, along with any relevant patents for whatever their developing/manufacturing, at cut-rate prices while the company tries, desperately, not to collapse under its own weight, which its coffers can no longer sustain.

There's absolutely no need to militarily seize corporate assets, when you can buy it for next to nothing and generate solid profit from the existing infrastructure. With seizure by force, you get property destruction, insurance payouts, death settlements with outraged family members, legal complications, and shitloads of bad press.

At the same time, any military attack on a corporate facility, even if that company is hemorrhaging money and desperately trying to consolidate its remaining assets, would probably result in a bloody conflict that wouldn't serve anyone. You can't let someone overtly rob you and expect to remain respectable. It's just not worth the price of the attack, even against a weak opponent. The Corporate Court doesn't keep corps from laying siege to each other. I mean, c'mon, corps run the Corporate Court. Mutual benefit and universal profit, even during drastically vulnerable times, keep corps from laying siege to each other. Usually

A megacorporation hit with an Omega Order could conceivably stay alive with intelligent crisis management and damage control. It wouldn't be a mega anymore, and would never be one again, but it could survive as a B or even A-level multinational. Of course, if the corporation had intelligent management to begin with, the Omega Order would've never been handed down in the first place. And living corporations offer more profit to everyone than a dead husk. And the management (new management, likely) of the now-deflating corp would realize that. There's still money to be made. They can still turn things around and get something, and that's really the name of the game.

Dropping nukes is certainly counterproductive to this end. Seizing land is also counterproductive. The most efficient, profit-oriented way to handle a megacorp that can no longer do business with all the institutions that allow it to be a megacorp is to gleefully gouge it for all the extraneous assets, patents, facilities, and stock they're frantically trying to get rid of, of which there will be a metric fuckton, build it up for 5-10 years, and sell it off yourself at an enormous profit.

Posted by: Navaruk Jun 13 2006, 02:22 AM

I would also add to this just how painful an Omega Order can be for other companies that do business with the offending organization. Not only does this mean the loss of a major trading partner, but a potentially serious interruption in the supply chain. No only could this prove to be debilitating to certain sectors but would likely cause a serious rise in inflation across the board. It is also possible that several companies would have to maintain relations with the blacklisted corp because otherwise they would go bankrupt anyway (though I image there will also be several companies that do it under the table because they see trading with a desperate company as highly profitable). In this case I could see why military action might actually be favored to resolve a particularly poorly executed Omega Order and prevent more economic damage.

Or am I interpreting this wrong and the Omega Order doesn’t actually restrict trade?

Posted by: knasser Jun 13 2006, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (knasser @ Jun 12 2006, 03:43 PM)

QUOTE (Geekkake @ Jun 12 2006, 03:36 PM)

Ok, I'm calling shenanigans and a cessation of all arguments between you two until you can figure out how to properly format your posts. Then you can resume your completely futile argument.

Done. Let the futility commence!

Well I agree with everything you just said and I thought that's pretty much what I've been saying. Although you said it in 1/5th the word count that I did (never got the hang of that).

So what's the part I got wrong? I'm curious as to where we disagree.

-K.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 13 2006, 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Navaruk)

Or am I interpreting this wrong and the Omega Order doesn’t actually restrict trade?

Indeed - but don't worry, that mistake is quite common within this thread.
An Omega Order does not mean restrictions - it means purging the offender.

Wich makes statements like

QUOTE (Geekkake)

A megacorporation hit with an Omega Order could conceivably stay alive with intelligent crisis management and damage control.

pretty silly, especially considering canon.

(The very assumption of cutting off a corporation from every possibility to make profit is flawed itself in a balkanized world like the sixth, too.)

Posted by: knasser Jun 13 2006, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 13 2006, 01:37 PM)

An Omega Order does not mean restrictions - it means purging the offender.

It's a while since I read Corporate Shadowfiles and my copy is now in storage. But I remember the Omega Order as being freezing of assets and trade restrictions - the corporate equivalent of cutting off oxygen. I'd be interested if anyone else still has a copy and can quote the relevant passage for us.

In any case, trade restrictions make sense.

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

(The very assumption of cutting off a corporation from every possibility to make profit is flawed itself in a balkanized world like the sixth, too.)

I see the world of 2070 as being less balkanised than our own. SR is a post WTO, post EU, post ASEAN sort of place. Few nations have any kind of import and export restrictions or tarrifs, there's a de facto international currency and business is completely internationalised. When the Corporate Court (a UN for the plutocratic planet) is in orbit, then what part of the globe isn't interconnected with the rest?

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 13 2006, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

What a stroke of luck I have a Corporate Download handy - that's a bit more recent.

QUOTE (Corporate Download @ p. 22, Penalties)

For extreme transgressions, the Court issues an Omega Order. Thids decree, essentially a mandate to all AAA corps to punish the offender, makes it open season an the condemned corp. It's the corporate equivalent of a death sentence, and it ain't pretty.

QUOTE (knasser)

In any case, trade restrictions make sense.

Of course... that's what happens as a normal punishment.

QUOTE (knasser)

I see the world of 2070 as being less balkanised than our own.

..you don't own any 'Shadows of' or 'Target:' Books, do you?

QUOTE (knasser)

SR is a post WTO, post EU, post ASEAN sort of place.

Most of those entities are still kicking, although under a changed name... and the sixth world has spawned many more.

QUOTE (knasser)

Few nations have any kind of import and export restrictions or tarrifs, there's a de facto international currency and business is completely internationalised.

In fact, there are so many restrictions that even smuggeling entertainment electronics can pay off.

QUOTE (knasser)

When the Corporate Court (a UN for the plutocratic planet) is in orbit, then what part of the globe isn't interconnected with the rest?

As the CC only regulates extraterritorial corporations directly, pretty much the rest of the world.