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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ "Not until you're older..."

Posted by: renaissancefox Jun 10 2006, 11:49 PM

So, hypothetically, at what age would you allow a child to get low-end cyberware? Say, something like a datajack?

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 11 2006, 12:18 AM

Personally, I like 16... but that's me.

I waited untill I was 18 to get my body mods, such as tattoos, but I did get some piercings at 16, and I'd probably have gotten a datajack if one had been available.

Posted by: Eryk the Red Jun 11 2006, 12:33 AM

I remember in some Shadowrun novel I never actually finished reading years ago, there was a situation where a pretty young kid, like 10 or so, maybe, (I could be wrong) was pressuring her mother to let her get a datajack (for games, of course). I assume that it'd be okay at pretty much any age, with parental consent, just like piercings. Problem is, of course, the body is growing, and the 'ware is not. So, it's probably not recommended to get any cyber before 18 or so, and it would require regular maintenance and adjustments.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 12:34 AM

For datajacks I'd say about a week, although that may be too long. You don't want the little babies to become accustomed to the meat world, after all.

But really, it depends a lot on the kid. If its born premature you may want to hold off on cyberimplants for some time. If it is full term and healthy it shouldn't have to wait a single day.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 11 2006, 12:36 AM

Despite what people think, the body does not grow at the same rate for everyone. I was 6 foot tall in 6th grade. 6'2" in 9th, 6'5" by college(I started college at 17, and stayed the same height until I turned 23), and I grew to 6'6" at 24 years of age.

Some people stop growing young, and some people keep growing untill their late 20s

Posted by: Witness Jun 11 2006, 12:37 AM

Stand back a bit would you? I'm getting a crick in my neck.

Posted by: GB1 Jun 11 2006, 01:24 AM

The's an episode of Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex that talks about a 6y old getting a heart transplant.

A nurse talks to Motoko about the stress of someone that young getting a cyber heart. (The tons of surgeries to keep up with the growth of the child).

I think the episode is called "The Blessed People"

Posted by: Squinky Jun 11 2006, 02:35 AM

You would think they would have to go see the street doc to change up as they grew, but why not. Bone lacing might cause some issues though...heh.

You would think Orks would get stuff younger, since their life expectancy is so low, they probably mature a little faster.

Posted by: Lindt Jun 11 2006, 02:43 AM

Yeah, Jr. high wouldent be abnormal for something like a datajack.
Though with all the sr4 skin link, and trode paste, I cant be sure anymore.

Posted by: Nasrudith Jun 11 2006, 04:34 AM

I'd say early to mid puberty. Age gets changed up a bit with metatypes.
An elf ages slower then a troll after all. It's more a biological then maturity thing.

Posted by: eidolon Jun 11 2006, 12:21 PM

Physical maturity would have a lot to do with it, I would think. You don't want to have to replace little Jimmy's cyberarm every time you buy him new shoes. (The exception possibly being in the case of accident or disease.)

That's how "norms" treat cyber in kids anyway. Accident or disease? Cyber to make the kid "normal". Just cause he likes the sam in the Karl Kombatmage movies? Hell no.

That's like a 10 year old asking for a cell phone.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 01:04 PM

But if you wait untill the kid is 10 years old you'll have missed the chance to turn him into a super-hacker who is more at home in the matrix than in the meat world.

Yeah, there are some problems with adjusting the datajack for growth but most of these can be corrected by just cutting his brain out and suspending is in an oxygenated nutrient solution.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 01:26 PM

But we're forgetting the marketing departments that will push all these technologies. Shadowrun is dark to me, and I think if modern US society is so willing to pump its children full of drugs even now, then I dread to think what will be happening in the SR world of 2070. The same people who play their children Mozart today, will be itching to dope them up with whatever brain boosting technology is available in the future. I see the kids hooked up to simsense training programs, loaded with Psyche for exams (which are probably year round). Knowsofts will be ubiquitous as will numerous drugs to encourage height and muscular development. I see the following conversations recurring frequently in 2070.

"Now son, I don't want to hear anything more about it. You need to have your cerebal booster for college and I don't want to hear anything more about it, is that understood?
"But dad..."

...

"You'll never guess what our Jimmy told me. Apparently the Nelson family are refusing to put their child on study-aid drugs. The poor little thing can barely concentrate on his lessons, just keeps scribbling drawings and running around. Honestly, parents like that should have their child taken away from them. I've a good mind to report them."

...

But darling, he'll never make the team without muscle augs. It means so much to him, let's get them. We can call it a combined Christmas and birthday present.

...

"No, no and no! You're not getting your face re-modelled. When I was your age, I had silicone implants and anti-fat enzymes and had to be content... Maybe when you turn fifteen, dear.

Posted by: Aaron Jun 11 2006, 03:16 PM

Would it make sense to wait until after puberty, just to make sure the kid isn't magically active?

Posted by: Edward Jun 11 2006, 03:31 PM

There are tests for magical talent in preteens, they are moderately reliable.

Knowsofts in children would not be common, they would be cheating if you used them at school. In SR3 however there where ASIST teacher chips, effectively download knowledge into your head. Although they only made learning quicker, not les karma.

I played a mage that was given a cerebral booster and mnemonic enhancer in high school.

And remember, many sports ban performance enhancing implants. And parents don’t want there kids in the ones that do.

Posted by: fool Jun 11 2006, 03:37 PM

waiting to see oif the kid is magically active would be a goood idea if you cared; some parents don't want a magically gifrted child.
As far as the datajack is concerned, there are references to children having them (jimmy gates the heir to the microdreck fortune in PR, full blown decks for children shich Slammo sanotaged in TM)
From a physiological point of view, there wouldn't really be much change needed for a datajack, the head is the part of the body that grows the least during development. Babies' heads are proportionally much closer to the size of an adults head than say their appendages or torsoes. And eyes are almost the same size at birth as full maturity. So depending on how you envision different cyberware working, you could get it very early in life. Eyes, probably shortly after birth (that's how they tx gongenitally blind people. DJs sure. Reflex enhancers.... depends do they go through the whole body or just the head? Reaction boosters, probably.Muscle replacement, bone lacing, dermal plating hell no.
Now, I'd say you can have bioware inserted at any age, after all, it is a bilogical part of the body and so would grow with the kid. Imagine a newborn with suprathyroid, the poor mother would be totally depleted.

Posted by: Brahm Jun 11 2006, 03:48 PM

QUOTE (Edward)

Knowsofts in children would not be common, they would be cheating if you used them at school.

Once apon a time calculators were not allowed in schools, they were "cheating". Now they are routinely a requirement.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Aaron)

Would it make sense to wait until after puberty, just to make sure the kid isn't magically active?

Essence loss from a datajack and similar uninvasive cyberware isn't going to hurt the average wagemage very much. The benefits outweight the risks.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 04:13 PM

Problem is, any essence loss can destroy the talent before it develops, background-wise.

In SR4 this is especially true since magic start at 1.

Posted by: knasser Jun 11 2006, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (Edward)

Knowsofts in children would not be common, they would be cheating if you used them at school. In SR3 however there where ASIST teacher chips, effectively download knowledge into your head. Although they only made learning quicker, not les karma.

And remember, many sports ban performance enhancing implants. And parents don’t want there kids in the ones that do.

I'm not convinced that there would even be an unaugmented category in sports in 2070. Consider the following three factors. Firstly, any kid at school or afterwards who would previously have been considered very strong, or fast, or agile, is now moderate or mediocre. The competitive element that leads one to develop these attributes doesn't sit well with coming 8th after all that effort. Only the very few who knew for certain that they would compete in some major international unaugmented sports would bother handicapping themselves for all those years. Secondly, viewers will be more interested in the augmented sports. Certainly there will still be those interested in natural competition but it's nothing compared to the sight of two bone-laced, synth-muscled 350lb boxers having at each other. The natural would be like certain very exaggerated forms of martial arts where there's nothing but form. Sure, there's a beauty to it, but lets not pretend it's the real thing, anymore. Thirdly, sponsorship will go the same way, too. Remember that companies now have the opportunity to promote their products in an even more convincing manner. Fuck providing the latest 1500m champion with his shoes. Our corporation manufactured his legs!

Regarding the knowsofts being banned in school, you are may be right. But even now, we're living in a society where most office workers can look up whatever formula or data with a few keystrokes, but we're still assessing children on their ability to memorise facts. Now, I know a search engine isn't a substitute for learning. But it's more of a factor than it used to be. And in the SR future, not only are people able to access this information even more conveniently than today, but the information will be much much more copious and complete. Not long ago an architect would do his sums with a slide rule and a calculator. Now he uses CAD tools and software that will work much of the stresses and strains, et al. for him. By 2070, surely he's just sketching out a room layout and letting the computer place the supporting walls and ordering whatever quantities of material are needed. So it makes me wonder just what they will be teaching children in schools in 2070 to make them useful workers. Certainly retention of facts wont be the most important part of teaching. It might be that knowsofts are banned, but it might also be that first class on a Monday morning is how to properly use knowsofts.

(Note: this isn't necessarily how I see our future, but it's how I see the grimy future of Shadowrun).

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 04:24 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

It might be that knowsofts are banned, but it might also be that first class on a Monday morning is how to properly use knowsofts.

Uhm, the whole point about SkillSofts is that there are only implants required, no training.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Problem is, any essence loss can destroy the talent before it develops, background-wise.

In SR4 this is especially true since magic start at 1.

But the flavor doesn't support this. Magic starting at 1 is just a character creation mechanic. Logic and Intuition start at 1, as well, but that would be the equivilant of all babies in the world being born with a learning disability. It makes no sense. Charisma starts at 1 but babies are naturally saccharine and cute. It makes no sense.

It is just a character creation mechanic. It takes massive essence loss to completely burn out magical talent.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 11 2006, 05:15 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

But the flavor doesn't support this.

That depends... it's never been strictly defined each way, there are hints to both possibilities.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 05:30 PM

y'know... The primary, I mean the true, asshole part of learning... Is memorization.

Consider the following: With headware memory, which according to SR4 unless you're trying to memorize an entire fricking library, you have all the memory you need in a datajack. It's accessable to you in the way your grayware is accessable.

Maths SPUs are also cheap, as of SR3. As of SR4, they might be built into a datajack at what SR3 would consider Rating 3, at no extra charge. They might even be standard. All those long, dull, mind-bendingly painful math classes went the way of the dodo. With knowsofts and headware memory, you know everything you need to know. Even if you DO need to learn a friggin' huge amount of useless data, you can chip it. Or store it in your comlink via wireless. (or wire, if headware comm)......

School in 2070 must be a real bitch for those whose parents can't afford cyber, but are legit enough to send them to school.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 11 2006, 05:42 PM

Still need math classes. You need to know what to put into the SPU, after all, and you'll need to know how to interpret the results. A $500 graphing calculator is quite useless to someone who doesn't actually understand college level mathematics.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 06:23 PM

Then the Maths SPU can come with a mathematics skillsoft pre-installed. I'm not seeing your point, Hyz.

Posted by: Valentinew Jun 11 2006, 06:43 PM

QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (Edward @ Jun 11 2006, 10:31 AM)

Knowsofts in children would not be common, they would be cheating if you used them at school.

Once apon a time calculators were not allowed in schools, they were "cheating". Now they are routinely a requirement.

Only for certain classes. The more basic the math class, the lower the tech allowed.

Yes, I attended an engineering school. There were calculators allowed in certain classes, but the type of calculator allowed was very specific....

Posted by: Kesh Jun 11 2006, 10:58 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Then the Maths SPU can come with a mathematics skillsoft pre-installed. I'm not seeing your point, Hyz.

The point being, you have to know what to put into which equation for the 'soft to be of any use. It doesn't matter if the 'soft can do perfect trigonometry if you don't know how to get the data the 'soft needs (eg. properly measuring an angle).

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 11 2006, 11:09 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 11 2006, 10:16 AM)

Would it make sense to wait until after puberty, just to make sure the kid isn't magically active?

Essence loss from a datajack and similar uninvasive cyberware isn't going to hurt the average wagemage very much. The benefits outweight the risks.

That's SR3 thinking. In SR4 essence loss *hurts*. It used to be that Magic 6 was the default, and a Magic attribute of 4-5 was substantially the same. Now the Magic attribute likely starts at 5, and the actual (statistical) average is somewhere around 2-3 before essence loss. So, even if nothing else changed each point of Magic lost due to essence affects the average mage PC 33% more, and for NPCs with a Magic of 2-3 it affects them up to three times as much.

But the game changes are to more than just what the attribute number averages to. Now the Magic attribute is added directly to most magic-related tests, in addition to its previous roles in determining the various limits to what spells you could cast and what force spirits you could summon. In comparison, before the Magic attribute only added one-third its value to spell pool calculations.

Though this number is higly speculative, I estimate that a single point of magic loss affects most PC mages about twice as much as it did in SR3. In practical terms it could be much more than that, because in SR3 there were few practical difference in terms of long-term ability between the Magic 6 mage and the Magic 5 mage. This difference will be even greater if you look at the average wagemage, who by the SR4 book have Magic attributes of 2-4 (look at the "Lieutenants" on p. 274-ish to look at what the above-average mages have for attributes.)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Then the Maths SPU can come with a mathematics skillsoft pre-installed. I'm not seeing your point, Hyz.

Math SPUs *did* come with a math knowsoft pre-installed, at twice the rating of the SPU. The point is that being able to do the calculations is useless if you don't know what the numbers mean. Sure my knowsoft can do a surface integral of a three-dimensional vector space; it doesn't matter if I don't know what a surface integral is used for, or more importantly how I can use it to solve this physics problem in front of me, and that's something a mathematics knowsoft won't help me with.

By your argument there's no reason to actually learn any non-magical skill at all, and people in 2070 should just chip everything.

To expand on Valentinew's post, many of my college midterms and finals were open-book, open-notes, any-calculator, bring-a-computer-if-you-want tests. I can tell you right now that for almost every student there was an inverse relationship between the amount of reference materials brought and used, and the final grade in the class. Loading an encyclopedia into your brain is no substitute for actually understanding the material, I don't care what century you're in.

That said, brain-mods will likely be a big deal in say the 2050s, when they were a new idea, and that generation will likely see a high percentage of upper-income parents tossing performance-enhancing mods into their kid's skulls with reckless abandon. By 2070 though those kids will have grown up, and studies will have shown that, like the kids who are growing up on growth hormone today, or the kids whose minds were melted by "whole language" teaching in the 1980s, screwing with kid's minds at young ages merely leave them burned-out husks by the time they grow up.

In fact, I say that by 2070 the government will have gotten involved in its knee-jerking way and have outlawed any sort of "unnecessary surgery" in juveniles under the age of 18. Some freaks will still be getting fake "prescriptions" for brain surgery, like parents do today to get their kids on Ritalin, but the practice will likely be on the downward spiral.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 11 2006, 11:41 PM

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (Aaron @ Jun 11 2006, 10:16 AM)

Would it make sense to wait until after puberty, just to make sure the kid isn't magically active?

Essence loss from a datajack and similar uninvasive cyberware isn't going to hurt the average wagemage very much. The benefits outweight the risks.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Then the Maths SPU can come with a mathematics skillsoft pre-installed. I'm not seeing your point, Hyz.

Dude.

There is a world of difference here. When you're chipping a soft, you actually gain the appropriate ranks equal to the chip's rating. you don't need know a damn thing about trig for your skillsoft to tell you how to use it (and since mathematics is an academic, not applied skill, it probably woulden't require a full set of skillwires,) and the SPU backs it up.

The only thing is that you can't use Edge or Pool with them.

But honestly... You're not chippin' Dodge for doding bullets or Long Arms for sniping here. You're chipping freaking mathematics. That's a freaking knowsoft, and really, if you can't do it with Logic + Rating 3 Knowsoft + 3 dice for having a Maths SPU....

Then frankly, it's way beyond high-school level math, and probably beyond college level math. If 6 + Logic dice isen't enough to pass the threshold on whatever task you have, you're involved in rocket science here.

Posted by: Nasrudith Jun 12 2006, 03:12 AM

On the topic of education and cyberware, the average corp school probably doesn't even use real teachers now unless the kid has REAL talent and they want to get them contracted in and give them the best of the best teachers.

A corporation can just charge for the use of the equivalent of a teacher with a masters degree who doesn't complain at all for 2,500 per student. That's half the cost for a month of middle lifestyle.
If the corporation wanted to branch out slightly and dramaticlty reduce they're fees in the long run. They could also code it themselves, and then supply all of their schools it free, then charge a fee to attend it for a school year. Even with multiple subjects, its still less then what it would cost to build a conventional school and hire teachers.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Jun 12 2006, 03:32 AM

QUOTE (Eryk the Red)

I remember that one too; it was called "Burning Bright." The protagonist's kid wanted a datajack to play video games "right," even though she was only eight.

Kyle's (the protagonist's) response to the possibility seemed to indicate that allowing a kid to get an implant at that young an age was a really irresponsible thing to do though.

Posted by: Edward Jun 12 2006, 04:25 AM

Yes but wasn’t kyle a mage, and a purest mage at that

QUOTE (brahm)

Once apon a time calculators were not allowed in schools, they were "cheating". Now they are routinely a requirement.

true, but using a knowsoft teaches you nothing, when you remove it all the knowlage is gone. Using a calculator still teaches you the more complicated math.

Knowsofts would be permissible in some very soft subjects, or subjects that use active skills (know soft java system functions when doing a programming assignment). Probably as often as open book tests are today.

If you tested history and allowed using a history know soft then the entire class would get 100% because one kid had a adaptive knowsoft and had it access the text book before cracking its copy protection and giving it to the rest of the class.

In a test to assess ability to find information (today we have research assignments) a know soft would be useless. For such a test to be effective you would not tell the students the subject before time.

I agree. Knowsoft class on Monday morning, we will introduce a psychotropic code into the chips and get the students behaving themselves for the rest of the day.

What the class teaches isn’t so much using a knowsoft as finding the appropriate knowsoft and knowing when a knowsoft is inappropriate (such as when your using an activskill). It would also touch on the uses of skilsofts, Linguasofts, mapsofts and datasofts

Even with instructor chips there would still want to be “teachers” you think parents are going to give up the free daycare aspects of school. The teacher will probably have all the skills of a school nurse and enough computer skill to get the kids plugged into there instructor chips, if she didn’t have these before she chips them

Edward

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Jun 12 2006, 04:27 AM

QUOTE (Edward)

Yes but wasn’t kyle a mage, and a purest mage at that

Yeah, he was a mage, though I'm not sure what you mean by "purist."

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 12 2006, 04:43 AM

You can chip free daycare too. All you need is an SK that gives the kid an AR spanking everytime he does something stupid.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 12 2006, 06:11 PM

Or just a VR daycare.

Hell, hook the sproglet up to a VR node full-time, IV drips, VR everything.

The Omega word of irresponsile parenting!

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Jun 12 2006, 06:45 PM

I would say it would be dangerous to get any cyberware while your still growing (one of the main advantages of bioware). You would have to replace the cyberware when ever the subject out grew it (worst case being once every couple of weeks). So with that in mind I should say head implants could effectivly be implanted around the age of 10-13, limb and body implants around the age of 19-21. This will vary based on age and gender.

Todes would be cheaper and safer.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Jun 12 2006, 06:55 PM

On a side note, if you want a good example of cybernetics at a young age, The Major from "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex" is a good example (she had her entire body replaced at age 5; can't remember why).

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 12 2006, 06:58 PM

Dr. Halberstam never had any problems putting datajacks in newborns. For that matter he never had any problems cutting their brains out and suspending them in nutrient jars, either.

I imagine that datajacks are the simlest implants to get at a young age. I'd suppose that cyberware could accumilate stress as the individual grows. It would probably be designed so that the 'ware fails before the flesh does.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 12 2006, 07:46 PM

I remember in one SR novel, I think it was one of the ones with Wolfgang, they talk alot about sports of the era (turns out Archangel is a huge baseball fan too). And how they actually chip the personality and skills of famous players from different points in time to make "dream teams" and see how they play out. All the players are un-augmented. In possibly the SR3 core book it talks about how different sports have different rules regarding magic and 'ware. Most sports still only allow unwared players and no active magic is allowed on the field, but most will still allow Physical Adepts.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Jun 12 2006, 07:54 PM

QUOTE (X-Kalibur)

That chipped personality thing sounds a bit like Fantasy Baseball.

As far as adepts - I heard that adepts are pretty much hated by most of the sports community. People see them as "cheating" (never mind the fact that cybernetics are allowed in a lot of sports...)

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 12 2006, 07:57 PM

EDIT: oh, there's TWO pages to this topic. Completely changed the post

QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter)

Plane crash. She was one of two survivors, both of whom ended up in full-body replacements.

Y'all are thinking about "school" in the wrong way. If you're in a world where the "schools" let you use knowsofts, do you really think they're going to be testing you on information recollection? Sure, that may be one of the benchmarks used in 2000's-era schooling, but information recollection is worth almost nothing if you're dealing with a bunch of people with chips in their heads and knowledge at their fingertips.

Instead, what you're going to be getting in corporate schools is education in employable skills (chipped Negotiation, Auto Mechanic, or Hacking just don't work as well as the real thing) with a heavy focus on knowsofts and the like as tools. If the kid doesn't test in the upper end of mental capability, why bother *actually* teaching him something like calculus or chemistry? The thing he's going to become (Bartender/Auto Mechanic/Secretary) doesn't require an in-depth knowledge of those skills. My idea of SR's corporate environment is that a *huge* number of the "wage-slaves" are engaged in administrative or service jobs, which can be taught in trade-school type environments (or over a hot grill). As far as the corporation is concerned, there's no reason they should go out of their way (and pocketbook) to teach anyone who's not "Gifted" stuff they're not going to use. And at the same time, they're creating what's almost a worker caste... loyal to the company and limited in options.

What's going to get taught in standard schools (as opposed to the "gifted" schools, which will probably be taught in a way more familiar to us) is preparation for a job in the company, doing something you're personality matched (or adjusted, depending on your game) to want to do and be good at, with the use of knowsofts being as commonplace as looking something up in the encyclopedia when you need to know it.

An example: an accountant who's working with subcontractors probably has skills like Finance, Mathematics, Ettiquette... the kind of stuff he's going to be using every day. But, let's say he finds himself one of several accountants working with a construction subcontractor on getting some roads built for his employer. The old method of thinking says "if you go read up on construction techniques, concrete grades, issues with urban construction, local geology, union law, construction hardware, and all those other things, you might be able to provide your employer with a benefit." And yeah... today, an accountant with a pretty good understanding of all those things would be more desireable, because he can communicate better with the subcontractor, know when he's looking at legitimate costs versus skimming, and all that good stuff. But it takes time and effort to learn all that, it makes you a bit of a niche worker (you're going to keep getting stuck with jobs like that) and it may turn out to be a waste of time (there weren't many hangups, and the subcontractor didn't try to screw you).

The accountant who's got some background on proper application of knowsofts would have looked at what he was getting into, and sunk a bit of his paycheck into getting knowsofts in those applicable skills. No real time spent on his part, he's got the knowledge of a professional working in those fields in his head on day 1, and if nothing else, his employer probably made some money selling him the knowsofts. "Good work, Jacobsen... thinking ahead and getting yourself chipped for the latest construction techniques saved us a bundle, when you realized they were going to use that outdated method. I think there's a place for you in middle management..."

You know how people are always saying "Man, I've never used a bit of the history/calculus/biology/physics/metal shop I learned in high school!"? Megacorporations would much rather you pay back some of your paycheck to have someone who actually knows what they're doing handle your services then teach you at some point how to fix the problem yourself. Why teach people a lot of stuff they're not going to use? It's expensive, and if they're destined to run a till in your corporate coffee shop for the rest of their lives, that expense is something that hits their bottom line.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 12 2006, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

chipped Negotiation, Auto Mechanic, or Hacking just don't work as well as the real thing

Unfortunately, the rules don't really reflect this. True, there is the absense of edge, but that only means that chipped skills are underperforming for lucky heroes in life-or-death situations. In most applications of these chipped skills I don't think people are spending all that much edge. Does the auto mechanic really spend edge to fix your car a little faster?
According to the rules, the chipped auto mechanic and the regular auto-mechanic perform exactly the same, at least until they get into the auto-mechanic showdown, ultimate auto-mechanic championship and start spending edge.
I wish the rules supported your claim better, I really do (and for the record I agree with the majority of your post), but as they are the rules make chipped skills *almost* just as good as learned skills. For some skills this doesn't really both me, but for others (like social or language skills) it really seems like they should be limited in some way, more than they are.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jun 12 2006, 10:02 PM

...Leela got her headware & some of her bio implanted between the ages of nine & ten.

The implants she received (SR3) were:

Cyber
Mnemonic Enhancement (3)
Headware Memory (60mp)
Induction Datajack
Transducer
Skillwires (3)
2 slot chipjack with expert driver (both slots)

Bio
Synthcardium (2)
Cerebral Booster (2)
Muscle Toner (2)
Synaptic Accelerator (1)
Enhanced Articulation

This was all done as part of an experimental procedure by a doctor who was a very close friend of Leela's family (her character story explains this in more detail). Long term recuperative therapy was out of the question in Serb occupied Croatia and magical healing was basically non-existent at the time. The Bio implants were viewed as a means of both offsetting and aiding in her recovery from the physical trauma she suffered. The Headware implants were to aid in her relearning the basic skills she would need to make it on her own again.

Needless to say, the procedure was successful. As her body's natural healing kicked in during the months which followed, she became kind of a super kid, particularly in her cognitive functions (she was already a genius level IQ before being injured in the Serb attack).

As she grew towards adulthood her therapeutic implants began to become true augmentations.

Because this process was done at such a early age, Leela acquired the Infirm Flaw, (which in SR3, limited the augmented max for her physical attributes). She also had the physique and emotional makeup of a 12 - 13 year old girl even though her mind of was that of highly educated scholar..

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 12 2006, 10:04 PM

Errr, I believe they're limited to the rating of your skillwires; skillwires which are expensive both in terms of and Essence. Sure, if you're gonna get your body laced through with 5 essence worth of skillwires, you can perform as well as a master mechanic who's been at the job thirty years. But it'll probably cost something like 100,000 , which you now owe to the company...

Actually, that's a pretty good idea, from the corp's point of view.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 12 2006, 10:39 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 12 2006, 02:57 PM)

chipped Negotiation, Auto Mechanic, or Hacking just don't work as well as the real thing

When your car mechanic realizes right before he sends your car home with you that he hasn't properly attached the oil drain plug (saving you a snacked engine when it tries to run without lubricant in a few more days), he avoided a critical glitch by using Edge.

When your 14 year old computer tech freezes while reaching for Enter, then carefully goes back and changes one of the flags in the command line he just entered (saving you a bunch of deleted data), he just avoided a critical glitch by using Edge.

When your paper is due in 90 minutes, and you've still got 3 pages to go, and you pound out the remainder and still manage to get an A-, you just added Edge to your roll, used a couple of the successes to drop the time required for the test, and spent the rest to jack your grade up.

If you want to make "Edge" into something we can think about in real-life terms, it's what lets us realize we're making a mistake at the last minute before it's too late, or really pour on the effort to turn out a result we didn't think we could. Skillwires take that away, and while most of the time (in game) that's not a huge problem, every once in a while you're going to encounter a situation where it'd be really nice to roll Edge.

Posted by: Squinky Jun 12 2006, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Errr, I believe they're limited to the rating of your skillwires; skillwires which are expensive both in terms of

and Essence. Sure, if you're gonna get your body laced through with 5 essence worth of skillwires, you can perform as well as a master mechanic who's been at the job thirty years. But it'll probably cost something like 100,000

, which you now owe to the company...

Actually, that's a pretty good idea, from the corp's point of view.

Skillwires are cheap as hell in SR4, cash and essence wise. You can max them out at rating 5 and only spend 10k and 1 essence....Be real easy to afford alpha though. It's buying all the softs that cost you, but they aren't that bad.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 12 2006, 10:59 PM

QUOTE (Squinky)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 12 2006, 05:04 PM)

Errr, I believe they're limited to the rating of your skillwires; skillwires which are expensive both in terms of

, which you now owe to the company...

Actually, that's a pretty good idea, from the corp's point of view.

My bad... Skillwires for all, yaaay!

Posted by: Squinky Jun 12 2006, 11:03 PM

Agreed, skillwires for all indeed. I've considered giving more of my NPC's skillwires just because of how accesable they are. I know I would get them if I had the choice, and the typical person would in my mind.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 12 2006, 11:25 PM

Back on the idea of children with 'ware, the idea of an adult man with a toddler-sized cyberarm is uncontrollably funny, to me. He's half T-Rex!

Posted by: knasser Jun 13 2006, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

Back on the idea of children with 'ware, the idea of an adult man with a toddler-sized cyberarm is uncontrollably funny, to me. He's half T-Rex!

Alternately a 12 year old from a poor family with man-size hand me down cyber-arms.

"But Mum..."
"Quite whining, you'll grow into them."

Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 13 2006, 07:15 PM

I can imagine a special kind of cyberware designed specially to grow with the user with minimal maintinence being available for an extra fee. Say, costing as alphaware, with no reduction in Essence cost and no opportunity to make it a higher grade (because there'd be less demand for it)

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 13 2006, 07:38 PM

Another on going topic of daytime talk shows.
Somewhat simular to the old debaites about Plastic surgery.

Surely few will argue about necessary bioware or cyberware to compensate for birth defects, but what is exactly necessary to help our children funtion normally in our modern society, and what is not is hotly debaited. Next on Maury III.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jun 13 2006, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (Toptomcat)

...This was why Leela's cyber was pretty much all headware and the physical mods were cultured bio. Since Bio (particularly cultured) becomes an integral part of the body, it would grow as the character physically matured.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jun 13 2006, 09:12 PM

QUOTE (Demon_Bob)

...as we talk with our special guest, Dame Leela Groznek-Grande.

first these messages...