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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ attacking through foci?

Posted by: mrcatman Jun 13 2006, 11:06 PM

Maybe I just can't find the rule in SR4, but it does not seem that you can attack someone through their foci anymore.

In our SR3 games, the big drawback to having foci around was that enemy astrally projecting mages could blast you and your team in the physical through that foci.

If that is no longer the case, is there any drawbacks to having foci other than glowing like a beacon as if to say, "I'm here, right here!" in the astral?

Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 13 2006, 11:09 PM

You actually couldn't do that in SR3 either. SR2 and SR1 both allowed active foci to act as a bridge for "grounding spells".

There is a couple of limits on active foci number and force, now, and they can still be attacked via astral space (just not grounded through) or set off wards.

Posted by: mrcatman Jun 13 2006, 11:20 PM

QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

(grin) Well, whichever version it was, I remember people doing it.

Would you mind pointing me to the page with the rules on attacking foci (assumedly to destroy them) in astral space? That would certainly be a downside to having them.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 13 2006, 11:41 PM

"When active, a Focus has an Astral Form." (p. 191)
Objects with an Astral Form can be affected by physical damage in astral combat (p. 184)
"While astrally perceiving, a magician can cast mana spells at astral opponents. Other astral forms can engage an astrally perceiving magician in astral combat (p. 184) or cast mana spells at him as well." (p. 182)
Disrupted foci are deactivated (p. 186).

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 14 2006, 07:47 PM

QUOTE (mrcatman)

Maybe I just can't find the rule in SR4, but it does not seem that you can attack someone through their foci anymore.

Of course you can... Foci still are dual-nantured, meaning they move simultaneously on both planes.

Combined with the fact that Charisma is used as Strength on the astral plane, that can result in some real slap-stick kind of attacks.
(And for those who can't afford their enemies to feature foci... use stunned devil rats.)

Posted by: Nim Jun 14 2006, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (mrcatman)

Maybe I just can't find the rule in SR4, but it does not seem that you can attack someone through their foci anymore.

What sort of 'attack someone through their foci' are you saying 'of course you can' to, specifically?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 14 2006, 07:51 PM

So what you're saying is, while an astral form can't ground a spell through an active focus, they can grasp it and physically bludgeon someone with it?
That is, I have to admit, a hilarious idea. But taking it off their person would cause it to deactive, right? Then again, that sounds like a pretty darn convenient way to deactivate a focus. Hmmmm, something's not right here.

Posted by: Squinky Jun 14 2006, 07:52 PM

Edit-Now I see where this is going.

Posted by: ornot Jun 14 2006, 07:55 PM

I had a GM who fondly recalled schooling a mage with too many spell locks in SR2 by grounding fireballs through them. But then spell locks were absolutely gross!

I'm pretty sure that grounding a spell from the astral to the physical through a foci was done away with in SR3 though. A foci's magical nature can of course be disrupted by attacking it in the astral, but only while it is active, and I don't think the foci can be permenantly harmed from the astral either although I could be wrong.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 14 2006, 07:57 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

So what you're saying is, while an astral form can't ground a spell through an active focus, they can grasp it and physically bludgeon someone with it?
That is, I have to admit, a hilarious idea.

And that doesn't even include the ugly possibilities jewelry offers - especially... piercings.

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

But taking it off their person would cause it to deactive, right? Then again, that sounds like a pretty darn convenient way to deactivate a focus. Hmmmm, something's not right here.

Well, using unmasked foci while not astrally perceiving is the equivalent of running around blindfolded... with your hands tied behind your back, and an ARO screaming 'Hit me, stupid!'.

Posted by: ornot Jun 14 2006, 07:58 PM

Those all got posted pretty quickly!

I really don't think a projecting mage can move a physically present foci around like a weapon. Foci are only astrally present while active, and they must be in contact with their owner to be active.

As for Devil rats.... I jusst don't want to go there!

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 14 2006, 08:05 PM

QUOTE (ornot)

As for Devil rats.... I jusst don't want to go there!

Would you prefer awakended, dual-natured chicken?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 14 2006, 08:07 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Well, using unmasked foci while not astrally perceiving is the equivalent of running around blindfolded... with your hands tied behind your back, and an ARO screaming 'Hit me, stupid!'.

Good point.

QUOTE (ornot)

I really don't think a projecting mage can move a physically present foci around like a weapon.

That's really the question here. We know it can be attacked from astral space, but can it be moved, or does the physical location always override the astral form and force the astral form to conform to the physical form? *whew*
A related question is, I guess, if you're walking along with active foci and you pass through a barrier do you feel a tug? I know if you force a focus through a barrier then they "fight" and either the focus deactivates or the barrier fails, but what constitutes "forcing"? Do you really have to push, or does just walking through count?
I always figured it would be the latter, so someone passing through a ward would be kind of like the T-1000 walking through the bars and being jerked back as they realize their gun can't fit through. But I don't really have any quotes to back me up on that.

Posted by: Tarantula Jun 14 2006, 08:10 PM

So then all you need to do, is stuff the foci inside their mage, then bludgeon people with the mage/foci combonation. Just seat it somewhere sturdy, like in the ribcage, and bludgeon away.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 14 2006, 08:32 PM

Keep in mind that the mage/focus/critter will eventually take damage while doing so, and be destroyed/killed at last.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 14 2006, 08:36 PM

Accoding to Target:Awakened Lands, Astral Constructs will support the weight of dual beings provided that they are strong enough. An astrally percieving mage could sit on a chair that only exists on the astral plane with no problem. Likewise, he could climb an astral ladder without difficulty. If he were permenantly dual natured he could even sleep in an astral bed with astral sheeps, although I suspect it would be drafty.

Purely astral things can, at least, defeat the force of gravity on a dual being. However, astral constructs are rather unique in that they act like physical objects on the astral plane. You can't stand on a ward, you'd just fall through it. This leaves the question of a astral magician beating someone to death with a devil rat open for debate. Form a game balance perspective I say no. From a funny perspective I say yes.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 14 2006, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

If he were permenantly dual natured he could even sleep in an astral bed with astral sheeps, although I suspect it would be drafty.

But ewe wouldn't want to.

Hmmmm, thanks for the feedback. It definitely seems like it should be a no-no, but I'm not sure.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 14 2006, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 14 2006, 03:36 PM)

If he were permenantly dual natured he could even sleep in an astral bed with astral sheeps, although I suspect it would be drafty.

But ewe wouldn't want to.

Hmmmm, thanks for the feedback. It definitely seems like it should be a no-no, but I'm not sure.

Do mages dream of astral sheep?

Posted by: Squinky Jun 14 2006, 09:09 PM

Devil rats aren't dual natured.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 14 2006, 09:56 PM

QUOTE (Squinky)

Devil rats aren't dual natured.

Hrm - you are right, indeed... edition inconsistency strikes again.

Posted by: Tarantula Jun 14 2006, 10:01 PM

It would seem devil rats, vampires, and wendigos are the only paranormal critters that aren't dual natured. How odd. In critters, they were dual natured, and now in SR4, they suddenly aren't?

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 14 2006, 10:26 PM

Where as you can not attack through a foci, you can attack the foci.

Sure you can dispell it but that is only a momentary inconvenience for the mage.
Note that such an inconvenience during combat can still be deadly.

The levitating invisible mage sneaking into a Coven's sanitary was none to happy when all his foci broke. Botches on stealth can be fun.

Posted by: Cain Jun 16 2006, 04:09 AM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 14 2006, 03:36 PM)

If he were permenantly dual natured he could even sleep in an astral bed with astral sheeps, although I suspect it would be drafty.

But ewe wouldn't want to.

You would not believe the things that went through my mind the first time I read that sentence...

Posted by: ornot Jun 16 2006, 04:14 AM

Scary thought.

Welsh Shamans with a sheep totem.

*shudder*