OK, Time for the sawed off one's contribution to this whole idea of "bearing all". After reading a number of other DCPs I decided, what the hell, why not? At this moment I am not at home and on a time limited system, as wll as not having all the details at my disposal. For one thing, KKs character story comprises about 66 pages of text alone (MSWord file - written in a narrative style), so it will take a bit to edit the Hacker's Digest Condensed Version.
I should have the basics down Thursday and an abbreviated version of her backstory on Friday (all PDT time zone).
Again, excuse any typos, the node I am at is not compatable with PHP Spell for some reaon or other.
Please, no responses until I get at least the basics posted.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| For one thing, KKs character story comprises about 66 pages of text alone (MSWord file - written in a narrative style), so it will take a bit to edit the Hacker's Digest Condensed Version. |
...not to worry. I personally have trouble reading incredibly long posts. What I will post on her background will be extremely edited down almost to an outline.
As to the style of the original manuscript, I am a writer and used KK's backsory as an "exercise" in narrative writing. Her full story is basically a novella with fully developed supporting characters and settings. If someone is really interested in reading the complete version, I can send it as an email attachment (word.doc).
BTW, Kyoto Kid - The Making of a Runner is copyright © 2006 Amber House Art Works
Cool.
Which genre? And would you call it belletristic?
Depending on your answers, I might be eager to read it.
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| Cool. Which genre? And would you call it belletristic? Depending on your answers, I might be eager to read it. |
I do not consider SR SF. SF once was a way to criticize society. Then Star Trek and Star Wars came, both considered SF by the public press because of the futuristic setting. However, they have nothing in common with the former SF.
Sadly, every film and book with a futuristic scenario is now considered SF.
Is Ghost in the Shell SF? Yes! It is philosophical, critical and uses the futuristic setting as a tool to make a deeper understanding of the essential themes possible.
Is Shadowrun SF? No! Big guns, dragons and magic! Pure escapism.
If I ever met a Shadowrun novel author on the street and he answered the question about his writing genre with "Science-Fiction!", I would like to slap him into the face and call him an arrogant fool. Actually, instead, I would say "I see." and walk away. ![]()
If they answered "Tragedy" or "Comedy", I would like to nod and tell them "You are not such a faggot, after all, but I do not like your novels.". Of course, instead, I would also say "I see." and walk away.
The science fiction we, in these times, know is not an actual genre. And SR is by no means science fiction.
Despite the fact that now, that I know that your story is belletristic, I am not interested anymore, I would still like to know the actual genre.
Melodrama, action, mainstream?
By the way, if an SR novel author answered my question with "mainstream", I think I would call out "Respect!" and go away. Maybe really.
Think we're in danger of hijacking this here thread, but I couldn't resist responding.
Not sure I agree.
SF is a broad church. Many people in the past have called fantasy works science fiction (although that doesn't happen so much anymore), and I can think of many many classic SF stories that can't really be called a social critique but certainly are an exercise in imaginative speculation. (2001, for example)
I must also say that I see elements of Shadowrun that certainly are a social critique.
I write, and I like to write sci-fi sometimes. Oh I can faff around and claim that it's 'speculative fiction', but frankly that's just semantic bullshit. Call a spade a spade. When you say sci-fi, people have an idea of what you mean, and that's all I require a label to do. So what if puffed-up literary types look down their nose at me? They look down their noses at everybody (and I look down my nose at them quite often!)
And what do you mean by 'mainstream' here? To me it means popular and acceptable to the masses. Because it seems to me that sci-fi and fantasy (and 'melodrama' and 'action') are both kind of mainstream at the moment.
| QUOTE |
| And what do you mean by 'mainstream' here? |
| QUOTE |
| Many people in the past have called fantasy works science fiction (although that doesn't happen so much anymore) |
| QUOTE |
| I write, and I like to write sci-fi sometimes. Oh I can faff around and claim that it's 'speculative fiction', but frankly that's just semantic bullshit. |
| QUOTE |
| When you say sci-fi, people have an idea of what you mean, and that's all I require a label to do. |
Some of this may be getting lost in translation then. ![]()
Mainstream means what I said it means, and it has little to do with genre. I think the most common term for what you're talking about may simply be 'non-genre', i.e. grounded entirely in the real world. In the UK some people like to call it 'literature', because some people are snobs: they equate that term with 'having artistic merit' and anything that could be termed genre (or popular) could not possibly qualify. I'm afraid I've met lots of these people and they really are that stupid.
It's interesting to see what happens when a writer, who is popular in literary critic circles, dabbles in what I would call sci-fi. Margaret Atwood (eg Oryx & Crake) and Dennis Potter (Cold Lazarus) spring to mind. They seem to end up pleasing nobody. Neither of them would call those works science fiction, because they loathe all the negative popularist connotations (or loathed- Potter is dead). So they call it speculative fiction instead, as if that fools anybody.
Going the other way, the premier UK sci-fi short fiction magazine Interzone is so desperate to buy its way into the 'literary critic' circle that many of its stories these days are dull and pompous- and the magazine's popularity has taken a serious nosedive, thereby more or less crippling the short story sci-fi market in the UK.
Your talk about 'misunderstanding the meaning of sci-fi', I suspect, is related to all of this. You love it, you want it to get the respect it deserves, and you're prepared to try and sever any connection to works you think that others might deem unworthy. I can understand that, up to a point. But the snobs will still be snobs and the geeks will still be geeks, and the rest of us will still mill around in the middle saying 'No it's imaginative and it's worthy. Check it out!'
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| I do not consider SR SF. SF once was a way to criticize society. |
| QUOTE |
| I think the most common term for what you're talking about may simply be 'non-genre', i.e. grounded entirely in the real world. |
| QUOTE |
| You love it, you want it to get the respect it deserves, and you're prepared to try and sever any connection to works you think that others might deem unworthy. |
| QUOTE |
| Going the other way, the premier UK sci-fi short fiction magazine Interzone is so desperate to buy its way into the 'literary critic' circle that many of its stories these days are dull and pompous- and the magazine's popularity has taken a serious nosedive, thereby more or less crippling the short story sci-fi market in the UK. |
| QUOTE |
| I'm afraid I've met lots of these people and they really are that stupid. |
[I promise!
]
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| As to being belletristic, Yes it does fit this definition being that is is both entertaining and informative.. |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| And belletristic has few to offer for me, since the main aspect lies on entertainment |
| QUOTE (witness) |
| I get the impression that it's meant to mean 'descriptive but without deeper shades of meaning or purpose', or 'beauty but no brains'. |
Interesting. On-line I found that http://www.answers.com/belletrism&r=67 means to do with the form of writing known as http://www.answers.com/topic/belles-lettres, and those are defined as 'literature regarded for its aesthetic value rather than its didactic or informative content. Light, stylish writings, usually on literary or intellectual subjects' [Intellectual without informative content?? Huh?] or as 'literature that is appreciated for the beauty, artistry, and originality of its style and tone rather than for its ideas and informational content. Earlier the term was synonymous with literature, referring particularly to fiction, poetry, drama, criticism, and essays. However, belletristic literature has come to mean light, artificial writing and essays extolling the beauties of literature.'
I guess your usage derives from this latter sentence, even though it hardly relates to the former definitions at all. I mean... what is 'artificial writing' meant to mean exactly?!
| QUOTE (Witness) |
| Interesting. On-line I found that http://www.answers.com/belletrism&r=67 means to do with the form of writing known as http://www.answers.com/topic/belles-lettres, and those are defined as 'literature regarded for its aesthetic value rather than its didactic or informative content. Light, stylish writings, usually on literary or intellectual subjects' [Intellectual without informative content?? Huh?] |
| QUOTE |
| I guess your usage derives from this latter sentence, even though it hardly relates to the former definitions at all. |
| QUOTE |
| I mean... what is 'artificial writing' meant to mean exactly?! |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| answers.com seems to want to impress the reader with a very elaborate vocabulary. |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| (If you read the feuilleton-part of your newspaper, you will come across this term on almost every page, as long as it deals with literature) |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| edit: It is hard to define bellitrism directly, in the end. But everyone knows what you are talking of, if you do yourself. |
| QUOTE (Witness) |
| Um. Yes. Your meaning was incumoungously clear. |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| The system in shadowrun is working. |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| None of the people that I play shadowrun with would agree on shadowrun containing critical elements. |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| Yes, you can interpret a lot into it, and indirectly there may be critical elements, but if only few people can spot them, the authors either failed - or it was not their intention. |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| Just a last question, why do you want to chew your nuts off when reading the literature-part of the newspaper? I assume because of the people who write it? |
Well said, Witness. =)
...well, looks like a few switches were thrown and this train has been totally derailed before it made it out of the yard.
Will attempt to set things back on the track later in a new thread.
We are sorry, Kyoto Kid...
Heh, you might just as well start a new thread if you have finished the short version of the character background. You can call it "Character Thread" then, aye? ![]()
@Witness: I see, that surely sucks. Well, we germans do have better article writers than you, it seems. ^^
Try another newspaper. The big news are presented always the same, so if you do not like your newspaper for a particular part of it, try another one, if the article writers are that incompetent.
Sorry KK. I feel really bad, but then like UP says, you do get to name the new thread the way you wanted it! Still, I guess now I might as well continue this hijack a bit longer...
coolgrafix: cheers.
UP: I surely hope so. I always read a variety of different newspapers, whether online or print editions. The UK press is so partisan that it's the only way you stand a prayer of getting a balanced view (they're all run by anti-science humanities graduates though). And the self-styled 'literary intelligentsia' manage to spread themselves equally over all the news outlets in this country.
There is even a late night BBC program called Newsnight Review, in which a bunch of the aforesaid 'literary intelligentsia' get together with a sycophantic host and share their opinion about books, art exhibitions, plays, and art-house movies. Bonnie Greer and Germaine Greer have been regulars. If you know them then that probably sets the tone for you. I haven't watched it for a while, but certainly it used to be a great example of what I'm talking about.
For a while, it was actually very watchable and greatly amusing, because the producers seemed to have decided to bring in some slightly more mainstream stuff for the reviewers to tackle. On one notable occasion they had to review some blockbuster- I think it might have been one of the Lord of the Rings films- and watching those folks squirm as they tried to apply their cod intellectual bluster and literary rhetoric to such a simple-hearted film was hilarious. You've never heard such bullshit.
Sadly I think the reviewers have done away with the popularizing producer and the program has returned to its previous dull and 'worthy' form. More's the pity.
...I wonder if Admin can change the name of this thread?
Make it... Shadowrun: SF or not SF? or somthing along that line
Yeah that'd be good. But then some bugger will just come along and hijack it to talk about something unrelated...
| QUOTE (Witness) |
| Yeah that'd be good. But then some bugger will just come along and hijack it to talk about something unrelated... |
Just a note that nothing prevents you from creating a new thread with the same name. The old one will die of disuse if you request folks stop posting here. =)
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| I do not consider SR SF. SF once was a way to criticize society. Then Star Trek and Star Wars came, both considered SF by the public press because of the futuristic setting. However, they have nothing in common with the former SF. |
Shadowrun always makes me think of "1984". It's not so much Sci-Fi as it is a Dystopian future.
| QUOTE (Aaron) |
| As for Shadowrun, if you think that racism, poverty, corporatism, and hate are no longer issues in society, then yes, you're right. |
Wikipedia offers some good reading on this topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science-fiction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction/Hard_science_fiction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction/Soft_science_fiction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_trek
| QUOTE (coolgrafix) |
| Wikipedia offers some good reading on this topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science-fiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction/Hard_science_fiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction/Soft_science_fiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_trek |
| QUOTE (Geekkake) | ||
Might wanna post these over http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=13416. |
| QUOTE (UndeadPoet) |
| I do not consider SR SF. SF once was a way to criticize society. Then Star Trek and Star Wars came, both considered SF by the public press because of the futuristic setting. However, they have nothing in common with the former SF. |
http://www.vintagepbks.com/images/sf/sfsleaze/scourge_blood_cult.jpg is it, guys and girls. The ultimately best novel ever written. I can judge from the cover. Why bother with writing more literature, if the best is out?
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)