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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Weapon Types versus Barriers

Posted by: Nim Jun 15 2006, 01:32 PM

QUOTE

Against melee attacks with blunt weapons such as fists, clubs or similar items, a barrier maintains its normal raiting. Against melee attacks with edged weapons, such as swords and the like, the barrier has twice its normal rating.

If that rule above applies both against shooting through barriers AND against destroying them...well. A tree has an Armor Rating of 4. An axe does (Str/2+4), AP -1. A club does (Str/2+1).

A Strength 6 character trying to take down a tree has a choice bringing a big metal axe along and doing 7P versus 7 points of armor, or picking a nice solid branch up off the ground and doing 4P versus 4 points of armor with that. Silly!

Want to slash someone's tires? Your Strength 6 character would be better off with a club (4P versus armor 2) than a knife (4P versus armor 4).

I can see what they were going for - barriers you can't actually CUT, a slicing weapon, something light but very sharp, won't do as well as a big, heavy (possibly blunt) one. But a big, heavy CHOPPING weapon (where the edge just serves to focus the force on a small area) will do just fine. I'm having trouble thinking of any barrier I'd rather attack with a club than an axe. And the same really applies to attacking straight through them.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2006, 01:55 PM

That's where that handy little rule about GMs changing things to fit situations comes into play.

Posted by: Rokur Jun 15 2006, 02:20 PM

Yes.... I usually keep rules Canon for say bustind down a door so the team can walk through it.... this way an axe... can't male a 1by2 Meter hole with one swing... but a fistful of unbreakable bones can....

But for the slashing of tires... I just use house rule of must make a called shot attack at -4 or -armor/2 (High armored carse gots runflats) and we use the barrier rating of a tire to soak.... and if the attack gets a net hit over dam. resistance... then it's punctured....

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 15 2006, 03:07 PM

Yeah that's kind of strange. I think the intent behind the rule was to keep people from taking down a wall with a switchblade, but it does have the odd effect of making a night stick better for taking down a door than a fire axe. I agree where this is a case where th GM should overrule on a case by case basis using some common sense*.

*prequisite is that your GM must in fact possess some common sense.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 15 2006, 03:26 PM

when trying to cut down a tree, your not looking to blow one big hole in it, your looking to weaken the structure of it so that it falls.

its the same deal with taking down a building with explosives. you dont try to blow every last bit of the building up. what you do is place explosives onto the load carrying parts, damage those until they cant do their job, and watch the bulding fall under its own weight.

i think a good houserule is that when a material is below half its structure, it will fail structuraly. so to slash a tire you only need to do is about 1 point of damage.

allso, armor in SR4 isnt straight up damage reduction, its rolled. so you may not do any damage (damn hard patch of wood or something) or you may be able to cut the tree down in one swing (nice work). but if you trade the dice in, both 4 armor and 7 armor will result in -1 overall damage, so the axe will do more damage then the club...

btw, 7? isnt 4 doubled, 8? so make that damage reduction for the axe -2, still thats 5 damage(axe) vs 3 damage(club) if the gm use the dice trade rule

basicly, the barrier rules in SR4 is buildt to do two things. first is to allow you to use it as extra armor (shooting through barriers), the second it to allow you to make your own doors (destroying barriers).

neither of those are realy appliable to cuting down a tree, or slashing a tire...

Posted by: Nim Jun 15 2006, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

btw, 7? isnt 4 doubled, 8? so make that damage reduction for the axe -2, still thats 5 damage(axe) vs 3 damage(club) if the gm use the dice trade rule

I applied the axe's AP of -1 to the armor, instead of listing it separately

The point about armor being rolled is a good one. But remember that we're also talking about hardened armor...inanimate objects not being subject to stun. So, now look at Strength 3: The axe does 5P versus armor 7 (and requires at least 3 hits to do ANY damage), while the club does 3P versus armor 4 and only needs 2.

You also have a good point about breaking a barrier not being the best model for cutting down a tree. But what about breaking down a door? A Strength 6 fireman with a fire-axe (7P) would need 5 (!!!) hits on his attack roll to even SCRATCH a hardwood door (Barrier Rating 6, straight from the example, and armor 12-1=11 versus an axe). The same fireman, now using a quarterstaff (Str/2+2 = 5P) only needs 2 hits to get past the armor rating of 6 and do damage.

Posted by: PH3NOmenon Jun 15 2006, 07:11 PM

or, you know, be sensible and require an attribute only test for such things...

Heck, throw in a profession(fireman) or profession(lumberjack) skill test in there...

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 15 2006, 07:17 PM

Or you could rule that the axe would be treated as a blunt weapon for the purposes of what you're trying to do. I have a feeling that the whole "edged" thing is meant to prevent people from slashing or stabbing doors to pieces with knives, swords, and the like. Axes and other "swung" weapons have a lot more momentum behind them, and the edge mostly serves to apply the blow to a much smaller area. You aren't trying to cut a hole in a wall when you hit it with a fire axe, you're trying to smash a hole.

Posted by: Nim Jun 15 2006, 07:48 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

I think you've hit the nail on the head, here. It's sensible to make a distinction between weapons for this sort of thing, to an extent. 'Edged' just wasn't the right criteria to use.