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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Meet my ally spirit...a motorcycle?
Posted by: Abbandon Jun 15 2006, 04:45 PM
Im rereading one of my shadowrun novels and there is this mage who has an ally spirit. He also calls it a familiar spirit. It can turn into a motorcycle...
Can someone explain how spirits can turn into useable objects like that?? Does that mean you could have a spirit turn into a grenade launcher or a tank ??
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 15 2006, 04:49 PM
It's just a motorcycle shaped materialized spirit that he sits on. Spirits can move pretty fast, anyway. Who cares what it looks like?
It could turn into the shape of a tank if the GM let it be that big, but it won't change it's armor value one bit. Maybe a small tank, like a drone. Still won't effect its armor, though.
I see no problem with turning into a grenade launcher, either. It's not all that overpowered. You'd still need the actual grenades to load it.
Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 15 2006, 04:51 PM
That raises the issue- if a spirit shaped as a gun can fire ammunition- and kill people, then why can't a spirit shaped as a motorcycle burn fuel- and go faster?
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2006, 05:01 PM
No reason at all why it couldn't, if you allow the gun option.
Heck, why not have it turn into a power generator of some sort. It has complete control over itself so could tunr the turbines without needing an external source of energy like steam or a waterfall. It would also have the benefit of being incredibly silent.
Infinite free power at the expense of one spirit. Having a spirit with no powers except alternate form would probably be pretty cheap in terms of karma requirements. Give it the ability to cast silence and invisibility on itself if you're paranoid.
Posted by: Witness Jun 15 2006, 05:17 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Infinite free power at the expense of one spirit. |
I was going to post some bullshit about Conservation of Karma, but I can't be arsed.
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2006, 05:31 PM
You can't be arsed? I'm not sure what that means in the UK but I doubt it means what I think it means. 
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 15 2006, 05:32 PM
Yoou can already enchant a physical power generator as a homunculus so there is little problem with it.
My position is that every detail of an ally spirit's form must be a part of its formula. If you wanted an ally spirit to look like a motorcycle it is realitivly east. If you want an ally spirit to act like a morotcycle you'll have a design a fully functional motorcycle from the ground up and inorporate that design into the ally spirit formula. This requires a motorcycle B/R test with a realitivly high TN and a duration of several months followed by a conjuring test to design the actual formula. Wether or not the Motorcycle design test was successful will not be known untill the ally is created or a prototype motorcycle is produced to specifications. Failure means that the motorcycle form either won't function at all or is prone to horrific mechanical failures during use at the GM's discression.
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2006, 05:47 PM
Why from the ground up?
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 15 2006, 06:04 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Why from the ground up? |
To discourage people from creating a allies are an absurd number of complex mechanical forms.
"Jim, this is my ally spirit, Sixshot. Sixshot can change into a jet-propelled flying laser gun, a giant robot, a heavily armed space cuiser, a tank, an armored personel carrier, and a mechanical wolf."
It is purely pragmtic although it can be justified by the fact that an ally isn't just a generic spirit. It is a spirit that you're building yourself. You have to fully understand the inner workings of even its tinniest parts. By comparison, I wouldn't allow an ally with a metahuman form to pass a medical inspection unless the magician can design an actual system of internal organs for it.
Posted by: ronin3338 Jun 15 2006, 06:05 PM
Because from the ground down would require a lot of digging?
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2006, 06:11 PM
Would you require them to design a fully functional bunny rabbit from the ground up if they wanted it to hop like a bunny? Biological forms are usually vastly more complex than mechanical ones.
I could read a book about motorcycles and understand all the tiniest parts of the designs in the back without having to actually design one myself.
Discouraging people from creating an absurd number of forms can be done just by looking sideways at them and rolling your eyes. Adding more rules to the design process would probably result in either unnecessary complication or inconsistencies.
Posted by: Shadow Jun 15 2006, 06:34 PM
The mages name is Talon, and he is the biggest munchkin piece of crap anyone ever wrote. As far as I know the author had no to little knowledge of how Shadowrun worked and gave the guy an ally spirit that turned into a Motorcycle cause it was cool.
I seem to recall a sam from one of the books who used duel Smartlinks at the same time to shoot two different opponents. Don't look to the books for the rules, some of the authors couldn't be bothered to research Shadowrun before writing about it.
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2006, 06:40 PM
You can use dual smartguns, you just don't get any benefit from it. The targeting reticles hsould still be in your field of vision.
Posted by: Platinum Jun 15 2006, 06:47 PM
What makes it even more sickening is said writer wrote two of the magic sourcebooks. He had a firm grasp of the rules. Some characters and writers just seem to suffer from megalo-munchkinamania. An extreme mutation of the munchkanism strain.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 15 2006, 06:54 PM
Actually, a motorcycle ally spirit form is perfectly within the rules. MitS specificly states that an ally's form can be "anything at all ,from a metahuman to an animal to a mechanical device, subject to gamemaster aproval."
Posted by: Shadow Jun 15 2006, 06:58 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| You can use dual smartguns, you just don't get any benefit from it. The targeting reticles hsould still be in your field of vision. |
This is an old debate. but, the rules say you cannot. So you cannot.
Posted by: Platinum Jun 15 2006, 07:04 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Actually, a motorcycle ally spirit form is perfectly within the rules. MitS specificly states that an ally's form can be "anything at all ,from a metahuman to an animal to a mechanical device, subject to gamemaster aproval." |
No one said it wasn't cannon. They said it was munchkin. Go one step further, a motorcycle that can shoot 14S lazer beams out of its headlights, and it's tailpipes can fire autocannon rounds.
Seems like a simple and cheap way to get your fairlight excalibur, and mp lazer 3.
Posted by: Shadow Jun 15 2006, 07:04 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 15 2006, 10:54 AM) |
| Actually, a motorcycle ally spirit form is perfectly within the rules. MitS specificly states that an ally's form can be "anything at all ,from a metahuman to an animal to a mechanical device, subject to gamemaster aproval." |
The book in question I think is Crossroads, published the same year as MitS. It makes sense that hes an author of that book. A lot of people think the spirit motorcycle thing is absurd. There are a lot o the portions of the rules that we tend to ignore because of their stupidity, like Surge.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 15 2006, 07:07 PM
You can't recieve smartgun bonuses when dual-wielding. You can use two different smartguns in two different hands as two seperate actions and recieve the full bonus for both shots.
Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 15 2006, 07:12 PM
Honestly though, they are books, they all suffer from this. Look at R.A. Salvatore? They killed a dragon with an icicle... I don't care how fraggin' big it was, not happening.
Posted by: Platinum Jun 15 2006, 07:22 PM
HAHA ... Not in shadowrun any how. Nukes, missles, tanks and airplanes, can't kill a dragon here.... let alone something like ICE.
anyhow ... back at to the topic ... isn't there a karma cost related to the form? machine is a complex form and would cost more and add a higher tn to the formula than a sword. A gun as well would have more cost to it.
Posted by: eidolon Jun 15 2006, 08:27 PM
The thing I think you're missing is while you can have an ally spirit that looks like a motorcycle, it isn't a motorcycle. It just looks like one (and perhaps has the ability to simulate the appearance of moving parts and the noise of an engine). It's not physically a motorcycle, it's basically a tangible illusion of one. Whoever said "it's a spirit with the movement power that he sits on" had it right, Moon-Hawk I think. (It's soooo far up the page...).
(On the note of moving parts and the noise, I'd make the player spend the K to give it phantasm at the least if he expected the spirit to be able to do this.)
It doesn't matter if the machine is complex or simple, because you aren't creating a machine. You're simply telling the spirit "Hey, you see that thing over there? Look like that." (not literally, explain it in story how you like). By the same token, if you had your spirit turn into a gun, it couldn't fire regular ammunition, because it only looks like a gun. If you wanted it to fire anything, you would have to construct it with some sort of attack power, like the fireball spell or something.
Nowhere in any book that I can think of does a spirit ever deviate from the fact that no matter what it looks like, it's still a spirit; with spirit powers, spirit attributes, and spirit weaknesses. (Barring absurdly written novels, which I in no way ever attempt to mesh with canon because they so seldom equate.)
Posted by: Shadow Jun 15 2006, 09:37 PM
| QUOTE (X-Kalibur) |
| Honestly though, they are books, they all suffer from this. Look at R.A. Salvatore? They killed a dragon with an icicle... I don't care how fraggin' big it was, not happening. |
Yeah, but that was Wulfgar and Drizzt, waaaay cooler character's than Talon.
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 15 2006, 09:49 PM
| QUOTE (Shadow) | ||
This is an old debate. but, the rules say you cannot. So you cannot. |
The rules say that your smartlinks shut down if you have two of them?
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 15 2006, 10:05 PM
I agree with Eidolon, and will also point out that the Wild Hunt is conjured with a chariot and whip, etcetera.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 15 2006, 10:11 PM
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| The thing I think you're missing is while you can have an ally spirit that looks like a motorcycle, it isn't a motorcycle. It just looks like one (and perhaps has the ability to simulate the appearance of moving parts and the noise of an engine). It's not physically a motorcycle, it's basically a tangible illusion of one. Whoever said "it's a spirit with the movement power that he sits on" had it right, Moon-Hawk I think. (It's soooo far up the page...). (On the note of moving parts and the noise, I'd make the player spend the K to give it phantasm at the least if he expected the spirit to be able to do this.) It doesn't matter if the machine is complex or simple, because you aren't creating a machine. You're simply telling the spirit "Hey, you see that thing over there? Look like that." (not literally, explain it in story how you like). By the same token, if you had your spirit turn into a gun, it couldn't fire regular ammunition, because it only looks like a gun. If you wanted it to fire anything, you would have to construct it with some sort of attack power, like the fireball spell or something. Nowhere in any book that I can think of does a spirit ever deviate from the fact that no matter what it looks like, it's still a spirit; with spirit powers, spirit attributes, and spirit weaknesses. (Barring absurdly written novels, which I in no way ever attempt to mesh with canon because they so seldom equate.) |
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck then it may as well be a duck.
Lets put this idea to a test. I make an ally in the smape of a break-action pistol. The ally opens itself up and I load it with a cartridge. Then, the ally strikes the cartridge's primer with its firing pin. Why does this cartridge magically not fire when struck by a manifsted spirit's firing pin? The answer is that it would. By the same token a gasoline/air mixture in a manifest ally spirit's internal combustion engine will combust just as well as it would in any other engine.
The only thing to consider is the strength of the spirit's materials and its ability to handle the pressures produced by such combustion. An armor spell and decent body should ensure that a spirit can withstand the pressures of a small gunpowder explosion or fuel/air combustion. If not the spirit will take damage.
For mechanical devices that don't require explosions to occur inside of the mechanism it is even easier. If a spirits form has all of the correct parts and they all work like they are supposed to then there is no difference between the spirit and the mechanism except for the facts that the spirit cannot be disassembeled and that its mechanical strength and durability are based on its stats rather than the barrier rating of whatever materials would have been used in the device.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 15 2006, 10:32 PM
Can a person flick their finger hard enough to ignite the primer? Can a troll? Is an ally in the form of gun made of metal (and if not, is the material "hard" or flesh like)? Does an eagle ally shit berry seeds, or do the berries sit in the "area resembling a stomach" undigested?
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 16 2006, 12:04 AM
I can swing a hammer hard enough to fire a bullet attached to it, which isn't very hard at all.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 16 2006, 12:28 AM
| QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 15 2006, 07:04 PM) |
| I can swing a hammer hard enough to fire a bullet attached to it, which isn't very hard at all. |
Yeah, but an Ally shaped like a hammer doesn't do damage like one when swung.
Posted by: SuperFly Jun 16 2006, 12:52 AM
Crossroads....Is that Steve Kenson or Lisa Smedman?
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 16 2006, 01:00 AM
He doesn't have to do damage as a swung hammer. As long as he's strong enough and resilient enough to drive a pointy bit of himself into the endof a bullet. If he isn't that way normally, getting a spell to do it wouldn't be too hard. Armor or increase body might work. Or you could research "Strong Enough to Hammer a Bullet." It would probably have a negative drain level.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 16 2006, 01:06 AM
Does is set off MADs? Does the chemical residue stay on the Ally in other forms? Does it leave rifling marks and are those identical every time?
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 16 2006, 02:12 AM
No.
Yes, unless it dematerilizes.
Only if it has rifling.
Yes, unless they are altered using the Ritual of Change.
Posted by: Tiralee Jun 16 2006, 03:07 AM
I am SOOOO getting a
Electronics 6
Computers 6
Gunnery Skill 6
Unarmed Mecha Combat 6
Piloting (5) -> Veritech Skill 7
Before summoning an ally spirit....
Muhahahhahahahaaaa...Panzeers, Vtols, eat hot uranium-depleted rounds!
GERWALK Forever!
-Tir
Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 16 2006, 03:57 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| "Jim, this is my ally spirit, Sixshot. Sixshot can change into a jet-propelled flying laser gun, a giant robot, a heavily armed space cuiser, a tank, an armored personel carrier, and a mechanical wolf." |
ugh, i have that transformer figure
Posted by: Cain Jun 16 2006, 04:54 AM
| QUOTE |
| Lets put this idea to a test. I make an ally in the smape of a break-action pistol. The ally opens itself up and I load it with a cartridge. Then, the ally strikes the cartridge's primer with its firing pin. Why does this cartridge magically not fire when struck by a manifsted spirit's firing pin? The answer is that it would. By the same token a gasoline/air mixture in a manifest ally spirit's internal combustion engine will combust just as well as it would in any other engine. |
Who says a default spirit shape would have a working firing pin? Or a working breech, or a working trigger mechanism? All the spirit does is *look* like a gun, it doesn't mean it has any properties of one. If I have a hologram of a gun, why should it manage to do any of that?
Granted, you can build an ally with all of those details, but then you're invoking the homoniculi rules. If you want to define any of the physical properties of an ally, you need to put it into a physical body. And since you're now putting the ally into a physical form, the only limits on the form are what you can physically find. And if you want the virgin or handmade telesma bonus, then you are going to have to build the whole thing from scratch; additionally, this being an ally, you'd have to at least research the physical form somewhat.
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 16 2006, 02:12 PM
Does it say that it only looks like what you want it to look like, or does it say "you choose the form?" If it's the latter, then the form you choose can be "a working gun."
Note that in my games I'd frown heavily on anyone wanting a spirit in the form of a functioning technical device or with any technological skills, but from what I vaguely remember of the rules it should be possible.
Posted by: Rajaat99 Jun 16 2006, 05:00 PM
It take a lot to keep an engine running, so would the spirit be covered in oil, gas, brake fluid, and the many other liquids it takes to keep it running smoothly. So an ally spirit could be a motorcycle, but if it changed forms, or became incorporial, it would have to be re-oiled, re-fueled, well, you get the idea. It would also have to deal with the constant explosions inside it's body. And a way to ignite the spark plugs. It just seems easier to get a real bike.
For an ally spirit to become an electronic device, you'd need the software installed, the ally spirit won't have that knownledge, maybe if the conjourer had computer (programming) at the appropriate levels and wrote the programs for each catigory (MPCP, ASIST, etc..). And it would have to have a way to put up with the extreme heat that electronic devices produce. It would also have to have some sort of eletricity resistance to deal with the voltage shooting through it's body. The conjourer would have to have a great deal of knowledge about the device also. Seems easier to get a real electronic device.
For an ally spirit to be a gun, which would be the easiest, the conjourer would need to know a good deal about the gun in question. The ally would have to have a way to handle the explosion inside it's body and it would have to be rifled if you want the bullet to fly straight. Guns do have to be oiled, not just to resist rust, but so everything keeps working right. It would have to use outside ammunition. With guns being so cheap, just seems easier to buy a real gun.
So, in closing, yes, it's possible to have an ally spirit do all of these retarded things, but it's be easier to build it / buy it yourself.
I believe Talon's ally spirit just looks like a motorcycle and moves at it's spirit speed.
My players like to say "but that's not realistic" a lot. I say one of two things, "You're an Elf." or "Subjective Reality."
P.S. This is my longest post ever.
Posted by: Abbandon Jun 16 2006, 11:52 PM
Just to clarify and wrap up. Yes the "crossroads" author was Steve Kenson, and i was talking about the mage Talon and his spirit Arcaros.
It was able to be a wolf, eagle, and motorcycle. When he did make it appear as a motorcycle i think he specifically mentioned revving up the engine and stuff.
I thought it was retarded for it to be able to do that, but then again I havent got to play alot of shadowrun so i didnt know exactly what WAS possable hehe.
Posted by: BookWyrm Jun 16 2006, 11:57 PM
Check the rules in MitS. I believe it's possible, and moves at the Spirit's rate of speed, but it was in his novel. He took a little dramatic licence. Also, check with your GM. If s/he says "too munchkin", don't use it.
Posted by: Glorian Jun 17 2006, 02:46 AM
In the Wolf and Raven story "Quicksilver Sayanora," there's an ally spirit in the shape of a sixty-foot long yacht. However, it didn't duplicate every feature of a ship. It had no engines or propellers.
As for what the rules said, Magic in the Shadows, p. 108 specifically says:
| QUOTE |
When creating an ally, the magician chooses a physical form for it. The character may also choose additional physical forms—the ally may materialize in any of these forms, but its physical Attributes remain the same regardless of the spirit's form." |
When Talon's spirit manifests in physical form, it has same the attributes whether it's a motorcycle or an eagle. A Great Dragon has different attributes from a drop bear, but a spirit with Great Dragon and drop bear forms has the same physical attributes. I would infer that to mean when manifesting, an ally spirit takes the appearance of an item, but does not actually become the item, with all of its associated powers and features. However, I can't find where it says which quickness multiplier to use for movement.
Posted by: Cain Jun 17 2006, 04:25 AM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Does it say that it only looks like what you want it to look like, or does it say "you choose the form?" If it's the latter, then the form you choose can be "a working gun." Note that in my games I'd frown heavily on anyone wanting a spirit in the form of a functioning technical device or with any technological skills, but from what I vaguely remember of the rules it should be possible. |
It says "physical form", but as Glorian pointed out, it also makes pains to demonstrate that the physical form has zero effect on the physical attributes. Something in the shape of a gun, but without the attributes of a gun, isn't going to be able to fire bullets.
And I have no problem letting someone have a spirit with a technological form, *if* they use the homoniculus rules. If they enchant a cyberdeck to be an inhabiting focus, then that's perfectly all right. You can enchant a sword, and get the "intelligent weapon" trick out of it as well; if you want to enchant your dikoted AVS, you can do that, too.
| QUOTE |
| It was able to be a wolf, eagle, and motorcycle. When he did make it appear as a motorcycle i think he specifically mentioned revving up the engine and stuff. |
Dramatic license. Then again, if an ally has the form of a horse, why shouldn't it be able to whinny and shake? It's basically just window-dressing.
| QUOTE |
| I would infer that to mean when manifesting, an ally spirit takes the appearance of an item, but does not actually become the item, with all of its associated powers and features. However, I can't find where it says which quickness multiplier to use for movement. |
GM's call. Spirit movement multipliers aren't explicitly mentioned anywhere that I can think of. The one time it came up in one of my games, we discussed a house rule to allow the ally to have a limited version of the Movement power to simulate this. You'll have to find out what works for your own games, I'm afraid.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 17 2006, 07:57 AM
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
It says "physical form", but as Glorian pointed out, it also makes pains to demonstrate that the physical form has zero effect on the physical attributes. Something in the shape of a gun, but without the attributes of a gun, isn't going to be able to fire bullets. |
So what exactly would prevent an ally sprit shaped like a tube with a pin itn it from using its strength to crush the primer of a cartridge that has been shoved in the tube?
Guns don't have physical stats. No inanimate object does. Show me a firearm qith Quickness, Strengt, or Body and the analogy would be apt. Wihtout these things thre is nothign stopping the spirit from functioning as a gun. I will happily admit that a spirit should be required to resist damage whenever it is fired and I would point out that such a spirit gun should have a damage code of (STR)M Stun by the letter of the rules; however, it is absurd to think that it cannot be done. Its like saying that a spirit shaped like a grandfather clock can't display the time. It's like saying that a spirit with a metahuman form can't walk because its stats don't include legs.
A spirit's physical stats are equal no matter what for it has because a spirit's forms are all made of *handwave*. While *handwave* may appear to be flesh or steel it is not. *Handwave* can absorb a lot of damage without comprimsing the spirits health as is represented by Immunity to Normal Weapons But its durability is ultimatly limited by the spirit's stats. The question that we must consider is *handwave*'s ability to withstand pressures of a cartridge being fired without deforming significantly. The answer may be yes or no depending on the spirit's force and its body.
An ally spirit with the form of a metahuman should be mechanically identical to a metahuman and should be able to move like a metahuman of equivilant stats. An ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock should be mechanically identical to a grandfather clock and should be able to keep time. Being a spirit, it should also be able to set itself. An ally spirit with the shape of a firearm should be mechanically identical to a firearm and should opperate like a firearm. It may operate like a defective firearm that explodes in your hand when fired but it would still operate like a firearm.
There are, of course, exceptions. An Ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock will be more intelligent, more perceptive and more durable than a real grandfather clock. While Mr. Axe-Wielding Troll can easily reduce a real grandfather clock to splinters he has to deal with the spirit's immunity to normal weapons and its Body. Likewise, the expanding gasses within a gun-shaped allyspirit will have to be resisted with Immunity to Normal Weapons and Body. This could cause problems. My advise is to not let anything explode inside your ally spirit.
Posted by: knasser Jun 17 2006, 08:37 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
So what exactly would prevent an ally sprit shaped like a tube with a pin itn it from using its strength to crush the primer of a cartridge that has been shoved in the tube? Guns don't have physical stats. No inanimate object does. Show me a firearm qith Quickness, Strengt, or Body and the analogy would be apt. Wihtout these things thre is nothign stopping the spirit from functioning as a gun. I will happily admit that a spirit should be required to resist damage whenever it is fired and I would point out that such a spirit gun should have a damage code of (STR)M Stun by the letter of the rules; however, it is absurd to think that it cannot be done. Its like saying that a spirit shaped like a grandfather clock can't display the time. It's like saying that a spirit with a metahuman form can't walk because its stats don't include legs. A spirit's physical stats are equal no matter what for it has because a spirit's forms are all made of *handwave*. While *handwave* may appear to be flesh or steel it is not. *Handwave* can absorb a lot of damage without comprimsing the spirits health as is represented by Immunity to Normal Weapons But its durability is ultimatly limited by the spirit's stats. The question that we must consider is *handwave*'s ability to withstand pressures of a cartridge being fired without deforming significantly. The answer may be yes or no depending on the spirit's force and its body. An ally spirit with the form of a metahuman should be mechanically identical to a metahuman and should be able to move like a metahuman of equivilant stats. An ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock should be mechanically identical to a grandfather clock and should be able to keep time. Being a spirit, it should also be able to set itself. An ally spirit with the shape of a firearm should be mechanically identical to a firearm and should opperate like a firearm. It may operate like a defective firearm that explodes in your hand when fired but it would still operate like a firearm. There are, of course, exceptions. An Ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock will be more intelligent, more perceptive and more durable than a real grandfather clock. While Mr. Axe-Wielding Troll can easily reduce a real grandfather clock to splinters he has to deal with the spirit's immunity to normal weapons and its Body. Likewise, the expanding gasses within a gun-shaped allyspirit will have to be resisted with Immunity to Normal Weapons and Body. This could cause problems. My advise is to not let anything explode inside your ally spirit. |
Everything you say about why you should be able to fire bullets from a gun-shaped spirit makes sense within the context you provide, so that's fine if it's how the GM wishes to play it. I personally have a different take on it in that the magician chooses the spirit's outward form only. A golem made of concrete wouldn't have muscles and organs within it, I don't see that any other form would necessarily need the internal mechanics (organic or inorganic) to replicate any other form. In short, you can have a spirit that is a simulacrum of a car, and I'd let you sit in it, I suppose, but you couldn't lift the bonnet and see an engine. You couldn't lift the bonnet at all. The spirit doesn't understand car mechanics, or human biology, but it knows what the magician wishes it to look like and it does its best to take that shape, but that is as far as it goes.
That's how I would handle it anyway. Hormunculous is there for actual inhabited objects. A materialising howitzer is just too open to abuse as is a banshee with Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 17 2006, 10:04 AM
But the magician doesn't tell the ally want to look like. The magician designs the ally's form and incorporates it into the spirit's formula. The difference is very important. The ally doesn't have toknow anything about cars or guns or internal organ so long as the magician does and specificly includes those parts in the formula.
As for the howitzer and the thunderird, I suspect they'd have to be very high force. As I have mentioned I'd rule that an explosion occuring inside the ally would hurt it. Most would be disrupted by a single howitzer shot. And, as someone else pointed out, it wouldn't be able to materialize with fuel or oil or anything else. A dry t-bird ain't very useful.
Posted by: knasser Jun 17 2006, 10:50 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| But the magician doesn't tell the ally want to look like. The magician designs the ally's form and incorporates it into the spirit's formula. The difference is very important. The ally doesn't have toknow anything about cars or guns or internal organ so long as the magician does and specificly includes those parts in the formula. |
As I said:
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| I personally have a different take on it in that the magician chooses the spirit's outward form only. |
In the context you are using, your argument makes perfect sense. I only ever take issue with people's arguments where they are internally inconsistent. However, I am using a different context for my games which I think is neat and balanced without sacrificing fluffy flavour. I just offer it here as an alternative for GMs who are concerned with players designing burst-firing ally spirits.
The howitzer and the banshee were my typical exaggerations to be colourful. A materialising shotgun or just a small car with immunity to normal weapons would still be sufficiently headachesome for me as a GM. Nevermind that I've just thought of having some allys materialise as cyberlimbs.
Player: "I'm just a poor mulitple amputee, let me in."
Guard: "Okay"
Player: ZA-POW!
Posted by: Rajaat99 Jun 17 2006, 04:48 PM
I love it when my posts are ignored.
Posted by: JongWK Jun 17 2006, 05:11 PM
| QUOTE (Tiralee) |
| I am SOOOO getting a Electronics 6 Computers 6 Gunnery Skill 6 Unarmed Mecha Combat 6 Piloting (5) -> Veritech Skill 7 Before summoning an ally spirit.... Muhahahhahahahaaaa...Panzeers, Vtols, eat hot uranium-depleted rounds! GERWALK Forever! -Tir |
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1750/11415338597564uj.jpg
Posted by: knasser Jun 17 2006, 05:42 PM
| QUOTE (Rajaat99) |
| I love it when my posts are ignored. |
Heh - at least yours aren't six paragraphs long and ignored!
But if it's any consolation
| QUOTE (hymarca) |
| And, as someone else pointed out, it wouldn't be able to materialize with fuel or oil or anything else. A dry t-bird ain't very useful. |
You're a 'someone else' but you're in there!
JongWK - that's brilliant!
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 17 2006, 07:54 PM
And people say we shouldn't have gone into Iraq!
Posted by: eidolon Jun 17 2006, 08:13 PM
There are some awesome cgi's out there that feature stuff like that. There's also some pilot/precursor/can't think of the right word videos of an "Optimus Prime" type semi transforming back and forth. Awesome. (I think there's a movie coming up.)
Posted by: Tiralee Jun 17 2006, 11:41 PM
Yeah, I've showed that one to non-fan coworkers and they were, "Oh, wow. That was so goddammed COOL.... Let's see it again."
I'm sure that there another one, admittedly less polished than the Optimus one, having a Mac truck suddenly transform and kick a trade-waste bin (Skip bin?) into a speeding getaway car.... That was REALLY well done, fast, funny and sudden.
-Tir
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 18 2006, 12:50 AM
It's just downright mean to rave about them and not give some links. 
Posted by: toturi Jun 18 2006, 01:56 AM
For all those guys that say that the novels do not conform to canon rules/RAW, I would say this: Whenever I read the novels and find that the author has broken some rules, a small voice in my head tells me,"Cos the GM said so."
I treat it as a House Rule that the GM/author has put in and move on. The key is that I enjoy the novel and I certain have fun reading it.
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 18 2006, 02:30 AM
Yeah, it's hard enough to write something as it is. Trying to make something meaningful that doesn't infringe on canon is even harder. Then trying to make sure nothing slips through a rules crack is even worse. The last one isn't really worth it IMO. A novel is not a game book, and shouldn't have to be.
Besides, the rules don't cover every possbile permutation of magic or technology. Just because something isn't in the rulebooks doesn't mean it isn't canon, or not possible.
Posted by: Rajaat99 Jun 18 2006, 02:34 AM
| QUOTE (knasser) | ||||
Heh - at least yours aren't six paragraphs long and ignored! But if it's any consolation
You're a 'someone else' but you're in there! JongWK - that's brilliant! |
Ok, now I feel better.
Posted by: Cain Jun 18 2006, 09:49 AM
| QUOTE |
| So what exactly would prevent an ally sprit shaped like a tube with a pin itn it from using its strength to crush the primer of a cartridge that has been shoved in the tube? Guns don't have physical stats. No inanimate object does. Show me a firearm qith Quickness, Strengt, or Body and the analogy would be apt. Wihtout these things thre is nothign stopping the spirit from functioning as a gun. |
First of all, can you crush the primer of a cartridge hard enough to make it go off? With your earlobe? Remember, the ally *does* have a strength attribute.
Second, guns and inanimate objects most definitely *do* have physical stats. Vehicles, for example, have a Body rating. Other objects have Barrier ratings, and Object Resistance values. Spirits have Body ratings, but they don't get any of the rest. Since they can't actually take on the attributes of the object (barrier rating and so on) they can't get any special properties.
Third, exactly how close do you think a spirit's "physical form" is to what it's imitating? If I have one in the form of a Fairlight Excalibur, does that mean I can use it to surf the matrix? If I have one in the form of an MP laser, can it blast away all day? Or, best of all: I get one in the form of an Ebony credstick, use it to buy a small South Pacific island, and retire. See what I mean?
Just because it *looks* like something, doesn't mean it can *act* like it. For example, the rules are pretty clear that if you give an ally the form of a troll, it still doesn't get Reach bonuses in combat. Rationalize this all you like, but it's not getting any benefits from its form.
| QUOTE |
| An ally spirit with the form of a metahuman should be mechanically identical to a metahuman and should be able to move like a metahuman of equivilant stats. |
Move, yes. Does that mean I can implant cyberware into it? Perform first aid? What about surgery?
| QUOTE |
| An ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock should be mechanically identical to a grandfather clock and should be able to keep time. Being a spirit, it should also be able to set itself. |
Let's not restrict this to allies, then. A Hearth spirit can also appear in the form of a grandfather clock. Sure, it can show whatever time it likes on it's face, since it *looks* just like a grandfather clock. Now, does that mean I can take it apart with a screwdriver? You said it's "mechanically identical". If my ally is in the form of a gun, what happens when I field-strip it?
| QUOTE |
| But the magician doesn't tell the ally want to look like. The magician designs the ally's form and incorporates it into the spirit's formula. The difference is very important. The ally doesn't have toknow anything about cars or guns or internal organ so long as the magician does and specificly includes those parts in the formula. |
The magician designs the ally's form, but that doesn't mean that it gets all the properties of that form. If you put a spirit into the form of an eagle, it still cannot fly on it's own wing power, it doesn't get any vision bonuses, or anything else of that nature. And what happens if the mage misses something anatomical? In the book, they give the example of an eagle, but they don't say anywhere that the shaman had to make a zoology roll to design its anatomy properly. The magician doesn't need to know anything about internal organs, either; all he has to do is describe the outward shape, because that's all he's really going to get.
If you want to specifically define they physical properties of an ally, above and beyond what it gets normally, then you can easily enchant whatever you want into an inhabiting focus. If someone enchanted a howitzer to serve as a homoniculi, that'd be fine, although it'd get a mite tricky bringing you ally into restaurants with you. But by default, you can't get the amazing ally who can duplicate anything. You'll have to work it out on your own.
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