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Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 16 2006, 04:42 PM

Does anyone have guidelines on how much runners (Begining, medium karma, and beyond) should be getting? I think I saturated the group with too much nuyen and now they've got everything they want (except those blasted Foci. I make them wait forever for those to arrive). The character advancement seemed to go far too fast for the cybered characters. Now they're bored with slow and none too rewarding karma advancement. To an extent I know that is the nature of karma, the slow advancement, but that's beside the point...

How much nuyen is too much nuyen? I'm not handing out millions here, but there's stilll a lot out there now.

Posted by: Nim Jun 16 2006, 04:50 PM

A place to look for one perspective on this would be the SR Missions adventures. Those all seem to have a variable payoff (and threat level) based on the average karma of the PCs. You could compare the difficulty of their runs to what you've got going, and scale your rewards off of theirs.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 16 2006, 04:50 PM

Cyber characters will almost always advance faster than magic characters because nuyen typically comes faster than karma. However, Cyber characters will eventually hit a wall whereas magic characters have only the sky as the limit. In the start this can make things seem imba, by the end, its imba the other direction. Usually in the middle (lets face it, where most runners die) its about even.

However, to ease your mind, if you look at the pre-generated scenarios they have on the Shadowrun site you'll notice that runners typically get around 5000 after completion of the mission, not including expenses. (something like 2000 base + (TR x 2000) with net successes in negotiation raising by 500 each per runner) and usually a 1000 nuyen advance/signing bonus if you will.

And remember, ALWAYS be wary of high advances... usually means they are planning to off you in a set-up

Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 16 2006, 04:58 PM

Somebody has a sig around here that sums it up quite nicely. It goes something like "Face it, no one is going to shadowrun for less money then they could get by stealing a car once a month and having the group troll negotiate the sale to a chop shop."

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 16 2006, 05:02 PM

Too much money is much easier to fix than too much Karma. For money, just start taking things away from them. Their car explodes. A combat they get into causes some 'ware to break and need costly, surgical repair. The team hideout is hit by a big, big missile.

Once you've got them to a reasonable level (for me, this is "continuous, insurmountable debt"), you can justify lower run reward prices by manipulating the local shadow market. Maybe they started running during a boom that's recently ended, leaving things normal again.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 16 2006, 05:19 PM

I always think that my reward is somewaht balanced then they go and rob/loot the corpse of every NPC involved. THe fenced valuables sometimes surpass the mission loot.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 16 2006, 05:22 PM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

I always think that my reward is somewaht balanced then they go and rob/loot the corpse of every NPC involved. THe fenced valuables sometimes surpass the mission loot.

That's some instant Notoriety, right there, is they callously loot the dead every chance they get. Not only for essentially "playing with dead people", but also because it gives them a certain "squatter air" that would be rather looked down upon in more professional circles. Give them a bad reputation.

Also remember, you're giving them time to loot everyone. If there's a bunch of bodies around, there was probably a lot of noise created during the events that caused those corpses to make the transition. That's gonna draw attention. Some of that attention is going to involve sirens.

Also, are you making sure you're fencing loot at 30% value?

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 16 2006, 05:31 PM

as far as 30% value yes.

My runner's are never too concerned about Noteriety

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 16 2006, 05:48 PM

This topic comes up a lot, and their isn't much agreement on an actual number. I have a system I use, which works for me (a search on the topic of runner pay would probably find it) but a lot of people felt was too low. Getting the right compensation is sort of a matter of trial and error and also group preference. If people in the group are bored and ready to quit that's a good indication that it may be time to put the game on hold for a minute and have everyone discuss their expectations and come to a consensus on what is reasonable.

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 16 2006, 06:10 PM

well, there are several SR books with a lot of info on what runenrs get paid. In one case, the explain that a johnson lowballs you at 80% of what a job should pay, and is under orders from above not to go over 125% no matter what. Sometimes they pay in gear instead of cash.

Thing is, how a johnson works will depend a lot on if hes corperate, political, criminal, or some other independant. And it also determines what he is going to think is a fair amount of pay.

Overall, i think its best to pay the runners enough to afford their lifestyle and basic costs, or they can get a lower lifestyle and save up for better gear. IF you pay a team 5,000 per runner, then they can either live at middle, or at low with a decent profit. Keep in mind, some of those guys are going to want high lifestyle. Now think about who gets a cut of the johnsons money- does the fixer get a percentage or a finders fee?

I would say, take the money in the SR3 companion, where it lists most jobs from 1,000 to 5,000. multiply by (number of runners+enemys rating). so a 5-man team going against an average rating 3 opposition (predicted niot actual) should get 1,600 to 8,000 each for that run, with a median pay rate of about 3,200. a good rep should improve that even more. some noteriety may hurt (failed to complete mission) while some may help (brutal thugs? heres some wetwork).

The factors to consider, for the GM, is where is the money coming from? is it supplied by the johnsons organization, or is it from a personal account? And even if the adept face did get 20 hits on his negotiation test, there is a very finite limit to the funding availible.

Posted by: Serbitar Jun 16 2006, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

Does anyone have guidelines on how much runners (Begining, medium karma, and beyond) should be getting?

maybe have a look at my recommendations:

http://www.serbitar.de/stuff/SGP.pdf p. 14

I suggest money/karma ratio of about 1:2000 which would be like this:

Average run:
3 evenings of 5 hours playing time
10 karma
20,000 Nuyen

If you (try to) play every week, thats about 130 Karma and 260,000 Nuyen per year (40 weeks per real life year)

Scale this ratio according to your needs, but do not go below 10,000 Nuyen for the average Shadowrun if you want to have some realism (and keep runners from stealing cars).

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 16 2006, 06:18 PM

The way I see it is that should be easy-come, easy-go. Sure you can get a lot and a lot of cool toys, but the corps will always have more toys. And remember, if you're risking it, you can break your toys.

When gear starts breaking, they get paranoid about actually using that money on more toys. Personally, I'd encourage them to use on things other than bigger and better guns. Do personal things, expand your character, maybe take some time playing Mr. Johnson yourself. Upgrade your lifestyle, take time detailing exactly where you live and stuff. Tell me about your hobbeys - do you collect 2045 edition Ares Predators because that was the first production run? Maybe you use your to buy trid artwork? Maybe you waste it on Awakened wines and asian elf courtesans. Or else cheap beer and cheap ass, and lots of both?

Maybe you funnel it into things you believe are right? Send a wad of c-bills back to your little sister in BumFuck, New Jersey. Go on a climbing holiday, or something.

Shadowrunners aren't just adventuring machines like a D&D adventuring group. Very few Run for the thrill of the Run, and those are the guys I woulden't wanna Run with. Sure it may be exciting, but you also stand a good chance of getting killed. If all you do with your copious is funneling it into toys, then you need to re-examine your life.

That, or you're a Rigger.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 16 2006, 06:37 PM

Thank you Serbitar and others. The Serbitar guides and resources are awesome BTW. Kudos on that!

I've been grossly over paying my runners.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 16 2006, 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Jun 16 2006, 12:19 PM)

I always think that my reward is somewaht balanced then they go and rob/loot the corpse of every NPC involved. THe fenced valuables sometimes surpass the mission loot.

I don't know about instant notoriety, and what if you aren't killing but rendering helpless/unconcious?

A) I'd much rather waste this chummers ammo than my own, so I'm taking his gun and unloading what he's got before I use mine.

B) This guy is out, no reason to leave a comm and firearm on him, he won't be needing it and if he wakes up / is set free he won't be as much of a threat.

Sounds more to me like the smart thing to do. Now if they are intentionally killing and taking more than they would generally carry (in example A, not dropping the old piece if they find a new one thats fully loaded, etc) then MAYBE. Also, if you feel its getting out of hand, keep in mind that you can put hidden tags on the guns that can be traced.

Posted by: Nim Jun 16 2006, 08:20 PM

As far as the looting goes, I think it depends. Just about any team of runners will happily pick up unrelated paydata that they find during the course of a run, for instance. And if the guards are better armed than you are, or the security mage has some tasty foci, then it makes sense to grab some souveniers and I doubt anyone would look down on that...though security weapons should all be highly traceable, with embedded transmitters, and the runners will need to take precautions against that.

On the other side of the coin, stripping the opposition bare of every piece of salable gear and backing up your van to the loading dock to cart it off is tacky. Especially when it's gear that's commonplace for runners of your renown.

If the Big Bad Shadowrunners cram their pockets with all of the rent-a-cops' cheap 9mms, people will start to question how good they really are at their jobs, that they need to go to that much effort for a small payoff.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 16 2006, 08:52 PM

the thing is that Comms and what not a are common place. though individually they dont cost much, looting everybody adds up quick. add jewelry, accessories and others and you can definetly make upto the meager wages usually suggested for most jobs (in the 2000-8000 range)

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 16 2006, 08:59 PM

Well, I see two schools of thought on that. You can either have Mr. Johnson pay extra for a no-looting run, or hound them so hotly they don't have time.

Really though, I woulden't be pissed if they scooped up extra comlinks on the way out. Most of them would be crappy rating 1s across the board. Hardly worth selling. Occasionally they'll find a gemstone. If they're taking the time to loot the guards' Fichetti Securities, they obviously feel they're not getting enough money. If they're scooping unrelated paydata or something that looks like a valuable prototype, that's perfectly understandable. They are, after all, in the middle of commiting felonies for money - what's a little extra Grand Larceny?

Posted by: Nim Jun 16 2006, 09:06 PM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

Yeah. See, THAT is something that would definitely screw with your reputation. The shadowrunner ideal, as it were, is the no-nonsense, no-questions-asked, professional 'trouble-shooter'. The shadowrunning community (runners and Johnsons alike) as portrayed in the fluff-text and the novels like to think of themselves that way - dangerous professionals working outside the law, more like black-bag intel operatives than common criminals.

And really, nothing says 'petty crook' like coming back from every run with a swag-bag full of commlinks, Rolexes, and wedding bands to sell at a huge mark-down to your pawn-broker contact.

Some runners and fixers would avoid working with them. Most high-end Johnsons wouldn't trust them or want to be associated with their reputation...unless what they needed were a throw-away team that was supposed to do a bit of damage before being utterly destroyed, of course.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 16 2006, 09:14 PM

Screw that, Nim.

Shadowrunners are looking out for themselves, first and foremost. They don't exist as a black-ops team for hire, they're guys and gals of exceptional talent who can't or won't hold a legal job, and who want to make good for themselves.

They're out for , first and foremost. Screw professionalism. It dosen't (usually) interfere with the job to swipe stray comlinks on the way in or our. When it does, that's a problem; if it does not, no problem.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 16 2006, 09:14 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

[...] on the way out. Most of them would be crappy rating 1s across the board.

As long as they aren't rating 5 when going in

.

---
As long as looting the place doesn't interfere with the contract, i don't see how it could tarnish the reputation.

Posted by: Lagomorph Jun 16 2006, 09:27 PM

I always felt that shadowrunners should be well paid. Why would you choose a job that risks your life every day unless the income was something that you could say "yeah, just 50 more runs and I can retire in the carib league".

That being said, not all adventures a group has is a run with pay. Often times they're very low pay favors, freebies, pro bono work, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 16 2006, 10:34 PM

From What I read of the Shadowrun Missions they start at 10K with bonuses and chances for extra income along the way. With a run every week or so. Although this seems just a little low, personally I like to double the payout, but increase costs.

As far as looting goes, a little should be ok. Quick grabs of weapons, comlinks, and other relatively small items should be fine.

As far as large big ticket items are concerned remember that Stealth Tags are 5 for 20 with a signal of 5.

If the equipment was owned by a legit company. The question the runners need to ask is it they can get the loot discreetly to a wireless dead zone, before the Corp reports it stolen and offers the police a donation for it's recovery, if the equipment is worth the companies time and effort.

3rd had suggestions about coverting karma into cash. Was wondering if anyone thought exchanging 5K for 1 Karma saeemed ok.

Posted by: Tiger Eyes Jun 16 2006, 10:35 PM

QUOTE

That being said, not all adventures a group has is a run with pay. Often times they're very low pay favors, freebies, pro bono work, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Heh. In my last game, when we started feeling like we needed more

we just started doing our own thefts. High end electronics, jewelry, cyberware... we'd spend a couple of sessions planning then make a hit worth a few million. Even after fencing it, we'd each net 250,000

at a minimum.

Strangely enough, our actually 'runs' after that all ended up being favors. Or runs where we actually paid money to do the run. (Like the time we needed to steal a statue... did our research, did our planning, and didn't see anyway we could actually grab the statue and make it out of the TIR safely. So we just paid 1.2 mil for it. Yes, that's right. A group of professional thieves just bought their target. Embarrasing. Sigh.)

So, if you think your team has too much money, start having contacts call in favors (thought they'd get away with that loyalty 6 contact did they... heeheehee). Pay a ransom or two. Start making bribes a regular expense.

As for looting... sheese. How much time are you giving these folks to do their job? What ever happened to, get-in-get-out, 3 minutes till Lone Star arrives? Have them get caught sometime looting, that'll put some healthy paranoia in them. Or have the stuff they loot (level 1 commlinks, wedding rings, etc) have to be taken to a pawn shop, then have the pawn shop owner turn 'em in for a nice reward to solve the murders of 5 corporate security guards... A decent fixer (any connection rating over 1) isn't going to take in the random junk off some wage-slaves or corporate-marked guns. Once you've broken the looting habit, then torture... er, tempt... them with a shiny focus or two.

Posted by: Red Jun 16 2006, 10:54 PM

Opinions on looting vary from campaign to campaign. In some campaigns with some GMs, looting is frowned upon. In exchange the GM sort of informally agrees to see to it that the party is paid well enough upon success that rampant looting isn't necessary. Players and GMs both have to come to an understanding on nuyen/karma progression. 90% of the trick to "leveling up" is purely the management of expectation.

In Geekake's campaign he enforces a very gritty and resource corrosive environment. I never expect to hold on to too much money for too long. After a big payday, we regularly lose large sums of nuyen to "Murphy-Geekake's Law of **** Happens." Thus far our group (specifically, me) has looted almost 50 commlinks. Why? Not for cash. Setting up a secure commlink network for a team requires a lot of commlinks. Even if they aren't high grade, it adds up cost wise. We didn't take them to make money as much as to avoid having to spend money on them in the future.

So I have to make an OOC effort to point out, "Hey, I want to go for this item which costs X in the future." That way they know when you are building towards something, and when you are just hoarding.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 16 2006, 11:14 PM

the only adventure for 4e I'm aware of gives 10kwith if done right a 5k bonus at the end, so lets say 5 runners you do it right 3k a piece. Not bad considering it is a fairly low threat adventure. Still how many runs a month do people expect runners to do I think 1 to 2. So you make a low lifestyle to maybe a medium lifestyle off of the low end low threat runs. Which seems about right to me.

I basically would say, begining runners can make enough to maintain a low lifestyle with ease or scrape by at medium.(1-2 runs a month equalling about 5 rgeand)

Experienced but not prime runners can make medium lifestyle easily or scrape by at a high lifestyle.(1-2 runs a month equaling about 10 grand)

Prime runners make a high lifestyle. (1-2 runbs a month easily making over 10 grand a month but probably not close to the 100,000 a month of a luxury life style maybe 25-50 grand)

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 16 2006, 11:19 PM

As for looting well as long as it doesn't interfere in the contract its cool IMO. Actually not looting is a bad sign IMO. Pro's look out for oportunities to make cash as long as it wont interfere with there contract.

Now taken to a ridiculous level there can be problems you shouldn't be dragging a sack of loot behind you unless its filled with something absurdley valuable. There comes a point in a carreer where a guns value of 150 nuyen isn't worth the effort to lug it around.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 16 2006, 11:51 PM

I don't have anything against looting per se, don't get me wrong. I encourage my players to loot, because running in my continuum results in a lot of nuyen sinks. However, I object, from a professional criminal standpoint, to rummaging through blood-soaked corpses in the middle of a newly-created abattoir while one of the team is puking and and another one is hastily muttering an Act of Contrition. For a fucking commlink. Then the sirens start, and your putting gore-spattered handguns in a sack.

No, sir, I don't like it.

Posted by: Xenith Jun 16 2006, 11:59 PM

Generally, I tend to give out an average of about 3 runs a gametime month, with varying degrees of risk. Much of it is even random as I just wing the whole thing. I tend to write down a general scream sheet, stat blocks for NPCs, and a layout. I level onto the PCs a problem without thought as to how possible or impossible it might be and throw it at them. Its surprisingly entertaining.

Pay is simply on par with how bad they want it, risks involved (that they know of), difficulty and so on. So far it keeps surprisingly close to Serbitars guide (I've never read that section til now.)

Looting is allowed, but the hard part is the fence. First they have to know one in the first place. Then they might have trouble fencing certain items... misc objects(Jewlery, etc) and cheap weapons/armor net you almost nothing (about 20%). Real useful gear gets you about 30% to 50%, but its also useful for the team (never can have enough gadgets.) And easily ID'd gear is insanely hard to fence. You have to sell it for almost free (10%).

Plus its not a good idea to loot if the job needs to be done quietly. Theft opens up larger risks.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 17 2006, 01:50 AM

Here's what I said last time about SR4 run payments:

QUOTE

The math for stealing Americars (or whatever) looks like this:

There are 4 runners in our all singing, all dancing, car theft ring.
Assume that each stolen car is worth 10K Y.
The characters are able to sell it for 40% value (due to having a long standing connection with the fence, or whatever, I mostly picked this number tomake the math easy).

This means that each stolen car nets each of the team members 1000 Y.

The Atlanta, GA crime statistics say that there were 5,756 motor vehicle thefts in 2004.

Assuming the same number of motor vehicle thefts in 207X and that the team contributes around 1% of this figure, then they would steal around 5 (some rounding here) cars every month, meaning that each team member would get 5K Y a month. For a team of 4 shadowrunners, stealing 5 'basic' cars every month is about as risky as a trip to the local 7-11.

So, any run which would pay out less than 1K Y per runner and carries any risk at all is not worth your time.

Next, we'll cover stealing a 'almost new' sports car:
Assume that the sports car is worth 80K, the team can sell it to the fence at only 25% (hey, sports car parts are harder to move than econo-box parts). This nets each team member 5K Y. For a team of 4 runners, stealing a sports car is still not that risky. So, a run that carries only minor risks (will not involved any shooting, but will involve the acutal commision of crimes) had better pay you at least 5K Y.

For most 'exciting runs' where you might have to commit capital crimes, the price had better go up, up, up.

Remember that SR4 and pervious editions of SR have different economic numbers, in previous editions of SR you'd want to double these numbers as everything important cost more.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 17 2006, 02:30 PM

But why be a runner if you're scraping by? If you go through so much trouble to change you identity, disapear from where ever you came from and then , what, live on the streets? If your job involved people shooting at you EVERY time you went to work would you keep doing it if it only paid enough to get you a low rent crap-apartment and a little dough on the side? It has to be lucrative or else no one would want to do it! Only crazies that need to shoot people on a regular basis would want to.

Posted by: Nim Jun 17 2006, 02:37 PM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

True, in most cases. Some of them don't have a choice. It's not always a matter of 'I'll give up what I have and become a runner'...sometimes it's 'I've lost what I had and I'm on the run, and the shadows are my best option.'

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 17 2006, 02:47 PM

Still, if you're a runner then you've ditched your past life. New Fake SIN and maybe a little cosmetics and you're good to go. New life, no worries. Something crops up and you do it again.

Posted by: imperialus Jun 17 2006, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

Best comparison I can think of is comparing a starving actor doing shows at the children’s theater, and working at the 7-11 as compared to say Brad Pitt. Those runners that make it make it big and retire to the carib league at 35 to drink margaritas are the exception, not the rule. It's that dream of scoring the big run that keeps fresh blood coming in. Personally I figure a runners odds throughout his career vary greatly and assuming that they average career of a runner who makes it to retiremnet is about 40-50 runs and I expect their chances would looks something like this:

70-80% of runners don't survive their first run. They ball's it up somehow and end up face up on a slab. This isn't because anyone screwed them over, just inexperience. Pay is going to suck at this level, maybe 2 or 3 K a run, with one run every other month or so.

Assuming they have a decent fixer, a runners chance of survival begins to go up after the first 4 or 5 runs. Their fixer will start grooming them to become a permanent addition to his/her stable and at the same time start trusting them with jobs from more experienced and reliable Johnsons lowering the chances they have of getting double-crossed.

Not only that but the runners are getting more experienced too. They are less likely to make stupid mistakes that alert security and turn things into a firefight. Pay at this level is much more livable though certainly not lucrative. 5 or 6 K a run with 1 or 2 runs a month. I'd say maybe 50% of runners who make it to this level survive it.

By about midpoint in a runners career (15-20 runs) things start to get riskier again. By now the runners have made some real enemies and may have a lot of "friends" who helped them get where they are calling in favors. They may even get approached by a corp Johnson and put on a permanent retainer, which is likely going to pay for a middle life style just as a regular stipend plus any money for jobs. On the plus side the paid runs start paying very well. 8 - 9 K. Survival rate at this level is probably around 30%

Towards the end of a runners career (35+ runs) they start to get into the bigtime. Chances are they've done away with fixers and are possibly setting up runs of their own. They are self-sufficent enough to get themselves out of trouble and have an extensive network of contacts and friends to get them out of trouble if they do manage to get in over their heads. By the time a runner hits this level he's probably got an 80% chance of surviving with single runs paying 15-20 K and up.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 17 2006, 04:10 PM

Wow, imperialus, that was EXACTLY the type of description I was looking for! Thanks

Posted by: eidolon Jun 17 2006, 08:23 PM

Haven't read the post (I know, terrible person) but I find that the easiest way to pay runners in a manner that keeps the game going but without them being able to "retire" (and therefore only end up running because you're playing a game) is to figure up what their lifestyle costs are, and look at the number of "runs" you intend to send them on throughout a given month in game. Once you have that, it's a good baseline for figuring out what to pay them. You want them to be able to make rent (unless they screw up ) and have some money left over.

The "money left over" depends on the style of game you're running. Want them to have to save for stuff? Pay them lifestyle plus a little. Want them to be able to upgrade every run? Pay them lifestyle plus a lot.

Yeah, I know, not very scientific. But it has worked for me.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 18 2006, 12:54 AM

eidolon, that's actually not that bad depending on what those upgrades are....

Posted by: imperialus Jun 18 2006, 06:02 AM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

Wow, imperialus, that was EXACTLY the type of description I was looking for! Thanks

np. It can be a bit of a ballancing act and the pay will inevitably vary according to the makeup of the team and what kind of a rep they develop but it's the guidline that I tend to use. A team composed primarally of mages and adapts will need far less cash unless they plan on sinking a bunch into ritual spellcasting locations.

I also figure the average career of a runner should span about 15 years. Assuming they start running at around 20 - 25 years old they should finish up at around 35 to 40. I didn't include downtime in my last post but there will be occasions when several months may go by between jobs as the PC's lay low until the heat dies down or just take a much needed vacation. Feel free to point out to them that runs are stressful ways of making a living and the occasional vacation might be an order. This can be a good way to relieve them of some extra chash in the process without the players feeling like they've been screwed of of their hard earned

It's also important to note that though most teams of runners bite it on their first few jobs most PC's should survive them without too much trouble unless they really screw up. It's frustrating to constantly be rolling up new characters and players tend to metagame a bit more competance than a newbie runner actually would. This usually takes the form of carefully chosen starting contacts, a half dozen fake SIN's and contigancy plans that realistically would probably evolve over a characters career. Let this slide, it frustrates players to no end to tell them what their character can't do.

Midpoint of their career though feel free to pull out all the stops. Have longrunning Johnsons double-cross them, get the Azzie Jaguars on a personal vendetta, ect. The players should be smart enough to survive by then.

Posted by: imperialus Jun 18 2006, 06:07 AM

One other thing you could do to relieve them of some of their cash would be to suggest that they look at some "matinance costs" involved with being a live runner rather than a dead or arrested one. This may include ditching their SIN's after every run and getting new ones, replaceing their comlinks every couple of months, moving just as frequently and all maner of other little things that come up when you commit crimes for a living.

Posted by: ornot Jun 18 2006, 04:13 PM

I keep my players from looting unnecesarily by not giving them time to hang about. They also don't tend to walk around with bags marked "swag" so they don't really have the carrying capacity to collect all the equipment their enemy are carrying

At the moment they've not been running long enough to make many enemies, but as they piss off more and more people it'll become increasingly expensive and paranoia inducing just to keep living.

Posted by: Serbitar Jun 18 2006, 08:27 PM

I would say the average career time of a runner is 5 years.

Assume that a runner does a run every month. Assume also, that the odds to survive a run are 99%. He then has a 55% Chance to survive 5 years. Assume also that he is getting 20,000 Nuyen per run and is living medium lifestyle (5,000 NYen), He then earns 900,000 Nuyen in this time. Assume that he is only savin 50%, investing the other money in cyberware and other runner related stuff, he is getting 450,000 Nuyen, Enough to retire in the caribbean.
As the chance to survice is 55%, every second runner would make it.

Now some other calcultions:

(Further assumptions: Money earned to med retire: 1,000,000, medium lifestyle already subtracted, additional spendings (50%) not subtracted, earns you permanent medium lifestyle
Money earned to low retire: 400,000, low lifestyle already subtracted, additional spendings (50%) not subtracted, earns you permanent low lifestyle)

Average survivability: 99%
Runner half-life:69 month
Income per run: 20,000
Med retirement career length: 67 month
Chance to med retire: 51% (one in 2)
Low retirement career length: 22 month
Chance to Low retire: 80% (one in 1)

Average survivability: 95%
Runner half-life: 14 month
Income per run: 20,000
Med retirement career length: 67 month
Chance to med retire: 3% (one in 31)
Low retirement career length: 22 month
Chance to Low retire: 32% (one in 3)

Average survivability: 90%
Runner half-life: 7 month
Income per run: 30,000
Med retirement career length: 40 month
Chance to med retire: 1% (one in 68)
Low retirement career length: 14 month
Chance to Low retire: 23% (one in 4)

Average survivability: 95%
Runner half-life: 14 month
Income per run: 10,000
Med retirement career length: 200 month
Chance to med retire: 0.003% (one in 28,000)
Low retirement career length: 50 month
Chance to Low retire: 8% (one in 13)

Note that these statistics are not for punks and other low level folks. The statistic starts when somebody starts to do professional shadowruns. The surviability and payed money for low level stuff shold be much lower, as there are much more people who are desperate enough to do it. So the folks who are shadowrunners (s created from the standard rules) already went through a selection process.

BTW: I do not agree with imperialis explanation. Actors only pay with a bad job, runners pay with their life. The chance to retire (low) should be at least one in ten.

Posted by: imperialus Jun 18 2006, 09:12 PM

I agree with your assessment Serbitar, I think the big difference is I was counting street punks and gutter trash into the equation. They are the reason why so many teams don't make it past their first couple of runs.

I think it really comes down to how you view the world and the runner subculture. If you envision a relatively small number of elite shadowteams being hired for the most lucrative of jobs then Serbitar's assessment probably makes more sense.

On the other hand I'm of the opinion that the only way a shadow industry on the scale that is implied by much of the fluff could evolve with people like fixers, professional Johnsons, street docs, shadowclinics and Shadowland ect. is if there was a constant influx of small and medium time teams that get used as "expendable assets". The corps arn't going to care if the teams they hire die as there will always be dozens more waiting for a chance to replace them. The number of truly elite runners should be pretty small but they are powers in their own right. Their survivability would be really good because they have the resources to keep themselves alive, most runners don't have that kind of pull and that's what gets them killed.

As for what draws most people into the runner lifestyle I choose to emphasize the hopelessness of life if you are SINless. Life is cheep in the barrens and there are a lot of people willing to do just about anything if it offers them the slightest chance to escape the streets. This is a society where you can and will kife someone over a pair of shoes or a soybar. I expect that a lot of young kids growing up in the barrens probably hear a lot of romanticized stories about runners hitting it big that they choose to ignore the other 500 runners that died so that Fastjack could make it to where he was. "It won't happen to me" is a powerful motivator especially when combined with starving, desperate twentysomethings. I expect that the corps secretly encourage this since it redirects anger among the more ambitious SINless and lets them feel like they are actually accomplishing something. Without the ability to go on runs a lot of that anger could turn into open rioting or rebellion.

Posted by: Dudukain Jun 19 2006, 06:47 PM

That's the thing, cybers are can only have 5.999999999999999999999999 essence of cyberware. EVER. Or they die. whereas mages/adepts can have initiation level 43 billion and still not be done advancing.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 19 2006, 07:17 PM

QUOTE (Dudukain)

That is true. And when your groups street sams (who are full up with all deta grade ware) are being laughed at by your mages (who have spent 5000 or more karma on initiating), then that will be a very real problem for you.

Posted by: spudrocks Jun 20 2006, 06:13 PM

Question: Regarding essence being a limitted factor for high end sammies. Why wouldn't a GM house rule essence can be increase at say one third or one half the rate of a normal stat. Say the sammies have trained their bodies to accept more and more ware overtime. This would keep the players happier knowing there is end point for their character. However it would not make the sammies all powerful.

P.S. This is my first post though I am a longtime reader of the forums.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 20 2006, 06:22 PM

Generally because it is not canon at all. There are rules for being "alive" below 0 essence, but it involves crazy magic and surgery that are kept highly secret and the result is a cyber zombie that has so many problems staying "alive" you almost wonder why someone would bother.

Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 07:41 PM

The previous response was correct, also, but here's another take on it:

Adept abilities (for instance) have a constant cost. In order to get more and more abilities, the adept has to raise their Magic, and eventually will have to initiate in order to do so. The costs of the abilities don't change, but the total the character is allowed to have goes up.

With cyberware, it works in the opposite way: your maximum essence expenditure is a constant, but the essence cost of the ware goes down as you become wealthy enough to afford higher-grade gear. In the short and medium term, the effect is the same: your capabilities increase.

The problem comes in the extreme long term, because the Awakened character can increase their Magic without bound, but the cybered character with 5.99 essence of delta-grade ware is All Done. Given the costs involved, this isn't likely to be a problem at any power level where the rest of the rules still work...if your game goes to the point where this is a limiting factor, other parts of the rules will have already broken significantly

However, if you want to fix it anyway, the consistent approach wouldn't be to let street-sams increase their essence. It would be to introduce gamma-grade 'ware.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 20 2006, 08:08 PM

QUOTE (Nim)

However, if you want to fix it anyway, the consistent approach wouldn't be to let street-sams increase their essence. It would be to introduce gamma-grade 'ware.

Actually, it wouldn't even be to create a new grade of ware, but rather new ware that has the same grades, but costs more and has more of an effect. Basically, rising technology.

So, now we have Wired Reflexes.
Say in 1 years in game time, they offer something else.
I'm not great with brand names or anything, but lets go with Tricked Reflexes. Yes, I know it is a stupid name.

Now, Tricked Reflexes offers 1Ag 1Reac and 1IP per level. It even has the same cost essence wise as Wired, or maybe slightly more. But the cost. Oh, it is tremendous. So, with rising technology, you allow your cybered characters to keep up with the adepts and mages to a degree. And it has grades all the way to Delta.

Of course, this really has to be balanced in game. But it can work.

Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 08:18 PM

True. Rather than reducing the essence cost for the same effect, you could increase the effect you get for the same essence.

Actually, it occurs to me now that we're talking about this that part of the lack of a ceiling on mage advancement is the SR4 spell system, in which you no longer have to learn a spell at a specific Force. It means that when a magician increases his Magic, all of his spells instantly upgrade. It makes the magician that much less interested in nuyen, and takes away one of his reasons to be out making contacts and looking for opportunities.

For the sam to continue upgrading, he needs to find sources of better and better 'ware. The mage with a Magic rating of 15 and 9 grades of initiation still buys spell formulas from the same corner store where he learned his first Stunbolt.

Possible house rule: go back to learning spells with a specific maximum Force. Don't bother charging more Karma to upgrade them, but do require the learning roll and something (some one) to learn FROM.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 20 2006, 08:23 PM

That can be balanced with Insular mages not wanting to share new spells. Maybe make it so spells are not available on the common market.

If you are a wage mage, you might get taught a new spell as part of your yearly bonus, or some such.

In the shadows, you have to track down a teacher, which takes contacts, and nuyen to grease palms.

Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (Shadowmeet)

Sure. But with no need to upgrade your spells, there's very little need to ever pick up additional ones. At least at present, the system just doesn't HAVE that many different spells. Your typical mage could probably go their whole life and never know more than, say, a dozen spells...half of which started play with.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 20 2006, 08:47 PM

True for some, not so true for others... But I get your point. Unfortunately, I like the fact that you don't have to keep relearning a spell at a specific, or maximum force.

So, that fix for me isn't the greatest. Sadly, I do not have an alternative as of yet.

Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 08:55 PM

QUOTE (Shadowmeet @ Jun 20 2006, 03:47 PM)

If you were going to add back in the idea of spells being force-limited, you wouldn't have to do it in a way that requires an upgrade after EVER increase in Magic. For instance, you could just say that spells come in Lesser (Force 3), Normal (Force 6), Greater (Force 9) and Legendary (Force 12) versions. Or some other set of tiers...you know, whatever works for you. That'd keep the feel, where your experienced mages are off hunting for rare formulas that will let them take full advantage of their ability, but keep it from being a tedious process that they have to go through EVERY time they Initiate.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 21 2006, 12:11 AM

Going back to Sammies, while Mages/Adepts can only really use their money on spells, foci, and regular equipment then must use ALL their Karma on Magic and Initiating, Sammies are getting Karma too. The difference is that sammies are upgrading skills and attributes.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 21 2006, 03:12 AM

QUOTE (Nim)

heathen

I need tons of spells. And when the big book of magic comes out, I'll need even more. Ok as a DM right now I need very little but as a player it is very important to me.

1: direct combat spell
2: direct area of effect combat spell
3 indirect combat spell
4 indirect area of effect combat spell
5: analyze truth
6: combat sense
7: detect enemies
8: detect life
10: mindlink
11: detox
12: heal
12: increase reflexes
13&14 increase spell casting attirbutes
15: oxygenate
16: stabalize
17: chaos
18: chaotic world
19: trid phantasm
20 improved invis
21: physical mask
22: silence
23: stealth
24: armor
25: levitate
25: magic fingers
26: petrify
27: physical barrier

Ok I'm a freak but that's my essential must eventually have list. Asuuming I start off with 8 of them, that leaves 19 to pick up in game or 95 Karma. Which is quite a bit I'd think. The sam can do quite a bit with those 95 Karma which is imporving the number of dice being thrown, not just massively broadning there options. Of couse the sammie could also pick up some new skills for the broadning the options type growth.

Posted by: NightmareX Jun 21 2006, 09:18 AM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)

Asuuming I start off with 8 of them, that leaves 19 to pick up in game or 95 Karma. Which is quite a bit I'd think. The sam can do quite a bit with those 95 Karma which is imporving the number of dice being thrown, not just massively broadning there options. Of couse the sammie could also pick up some new skills for the broadning the options type growth.

That's exactly why I still use SR3's Money-for-Karma and Karma-for-Money rules. That way, as a GM I can hand out karma and nuyen at normal rates and let the players be the ones to handle the bugeting of their resources.

I tend to give out about 5 karma and 7,500 nuyen per run (on average) over the early stages of a runner's career (that is, below the 100 karma mark). That means, in roughly 20 runs any given character will have 150,000 nuyen in earnings when they reach the 100 karma mark. This is not nearly enough money to keep a cyber monster happily upgraded, but more than enough karma to let them learn virtually every skill they want and increase said skills to reasonable levels. Likewise, 150,000 nuyen is a virtual fortune to a magiker, but 100 karma is just a tiny drop in the bucket compared to their karma needs.

With this amount of income (in both karma and money), both general character types have enough income to upgrade a bit, but no where near what they need to be truly competative. Remember, all this time the opposition is getting tougher and more insane, and most of the time the opposition has an unlimited budget.

So, when the 100 karma point in the campaign rolls around, the players still want more. While marginally satisfied that they've been able to upgrade a bit and save a bit of money, they still often feel desperate to get that little bit more karma/ nuyen that'll let them Initiate again/learn that new spell/afford that piece of beta-to-delta grade 'ware that they feel they need to stay one step ahead. That's where the Karma-to-Money rules come in, allowing the character to trade off what they don't need (as much) for what they do (desparately) need. This makes the players happier, but also has the side-effect of draining their resources which leaves them needing more money/karma. Which means they go on more runs, facing tougher and tougher opposition/problems and making more enemies that they need to upgrade to cope with, which leads them back to the same dilemma.

The net effect of this is that it leaves the players always hungry for more, and it works like a charm. In 15 years of playing and GMing SR, I've never had a "campaign" end due to lack of interest and only seen a grand total of 4 characters actually retire.

Posted by: Dewar Jun 21 2006, 08:26 PM

How exactly do the Karma for Money and Money for Karma rules work? What's the ratio, and can it be done any time, or does it take a short downtime, or maybe a long one?

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 21 2006, 08:34 PM

Just going by the numbers he left it looks like about 1500 to 1 karma.

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 21 2006, 09:41 PM

Using the rule that it takes 2*BP in Karma to buy new advantages.
We go with 2Karma for every 5,000

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 21 2006, 10:22 PM

WHere might one find the rules for such a Karma/money conversion? I have a SR3 handbook that I haven't looked all the way through yet so if it is in there I should be able to find it....

Posted by: NightmareX Jun 22 2006, 06:33 AM

QUOTE (Dewar)

How exactly do the Karma for Money and Money for Karma rules work? What's the ratio, and can it be done any time, or does it take a short downtime, or maybe a long one?

This is how my group works it nowadays (from our house rules):

QUOTE

Karma & Money – The following rules, based on the Shadowrun Companion 3rd Edition, govern nuyen-karma exchanges. Such exchanges can only be made when the character has a significant amount of down time, and only with gamemaster permission.
* Buying Karma – Nuyen for Karma exchanges are handled at a rate of 1000 ¥ times the current Karma Inflation rate of the campaign (determined by the gamemaster, generally 2.5). Thus, at the base Karma Inflation rate, 2500 ¥ buys you one point of Karma. Additionally, the player must come up with an in-character justification for the exchange. The character that receives the Karma does not necessarily have to be the one who pays for it.
* Gimme Money! – Karma for nuyen exchanges give the character [Number of Karma Spent]d6 ¥ multiplied by the campaign’s current Nuyen Multiplier (determined by the gamemaster, generally 500). The gamemaster will supply an in-character reason for the exchange if the player does not.

A few clarifications -
1) A "significant amount of down time" can mean anything from a couple of days to a week to a month or more depending on the player's justification for the exchange. Giving 50,000 ¥ to help establish a school on the outskirts of the barrens would take a few weeks (to round up volunteers, equipment, security, etc), but blowing the same amount in a gambling and partying spree to honor Coyote could only take a couple of days (plus recovery time of course

).

2) "Only with gamemaster permission" generally means an exhange like this:
PC - I wanna blow some money to get some karma.
GM - Ok, you've got some downtime to do it in. What's your explanation?
PC - {insert plausible explanation here}
GM - 'Kay {forks over the karma}

3) The stipulation that the character that receives the Karma does not necessarily have to be the one who pays for it is our game mechanic justification for college education, military training, etc. It has never come up in game.

4) The Karma Inflation and Nuyen Multipliers are variable for a reason. In the early stages of a campaign (25-50 karma) I use the base rates to prevent player's from abusing the system (and screwing themselves in the process). As things progress, the Nuyen Multipler tends to go up (depending on circumstance and local conditions) while the Karma Inflation rate tends to decrease slightly (but never below 1). This has the effect of allowing me to both simulate the campaign's local economic environment and to tailor the exchange rates to the PC's needs to a degree.

5) The Karma-for-Money rules use a variable range to simulate the vaguries of luck and to easily work with our house rules for handling the stock markets, which are as follows:

QUOTE

Stock – Stock and other investments (money markets, mutual funds, etc.) are handled in an abstract fashion to reduce the amount of necessary record keeping. Characters can invest as much as want as long as they have some legal way to do so (investing requires a SIN), although it should be noted that most multinationals and all AAA’s issue only non-voting stock for public consumption. Most stocks in Shadowrun do not pay dividends, so the only times they become important is when they are bought or sold. When stock is sold, the character (or whoever manages the stock, including market analysis programs or agents) makes a Success test using an appropriate financial Knowledge skill against a random threshold (1d6). Each hit in excess of this threshold per 1,000 ¥ worth of stock sold generates one point of “pseudo-karma” that must immediately be used in the same fashion as the Cash for Karma rules. In order to avoid abuse of this system, gamemasters should require characters wishing profit in such a manner to spend at least one karma point in a normal Cash for Karma exchange in conjunction with their transaction.

Posted by: NightmareX Jun 22 2006, 06:45 AM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

WHere might one find the rules for such a Karma/money conversion? I have a SR3 handbook that I haven't looked all the way through yet so if it is in there I should be able to find it....

They originally came out in the SR2 Companion book, and were reprinted in the SR3 Companion. Prior to the release of the SR2 companion, groups I've been involved with just used a hapzard way of exchanging the two comodities. The Companion provided a more solid framework to use for this sort of thing, but as you can see in the house rules I just posted some of that hapzardness is still hanging around, one of our many legacy systems

Posted by: NightmareX Jun 22 2006, 06:48 AM

QUOTE (Demon_Bob)

Using the rule that it takes 2*BP in Karma to buy new advantages.
We go with 2Karma for every 5,000

That's exactly what it comes out to at our base rate (on the karma end), and we haven't changed the base rate since SR3. Weird

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 22 2006, 01:18 PM

QUOTE

Each hit in excess of this threshold per 1,000 ¥ worth of stock sold generates one point of “pseudo-karma” that must immediately be used in the same fashion as the Cash for Karma rules.

Does this mean that you not only get money out of trading stock but also Karma?
Wait....You invest in stock, go sell it later, then have to immediately spend it on Karma? THat's a little weird...

What kind of justification can you give for getting Money for Karma??? Does anyone have examples?

Posted by: Serbitar Jun 22 2006, 01:22 PM

gambling
betting on stuff
high risk investements

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 22 2006, 01:25 PM

ok, thanks

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 03:30 PM

...a week as a 'paid volunteer' in an Aztechnology Esoteric Projects Division research procedure....

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 22 2006, 04:03 PM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

What kind of justification can you give for getting Money for Karma??? Does anyone have examples?

Serbitar has the right of it in this circumstance.

The other way, trading in money to get Karma, can be viewed as paying to attend things like spiritual retreats, motivational seminars, and paying for "blessings" from that creepy hoodoo guy who lives in the abandoned brownstone down the street.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 22 2006, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Geekkake)

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Jun 22 2006, 08:18 AM)

What kind of justification can you give for getting Money for Karma??? Does anyone have examples?

Or sometimes things like helping the downtrodden, giving to charity, working to restore some house burned in a fire(That left a family homeless), etc.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 22 2006, 05:14 PM

ARGH FORMATTING BAD

But yes, just about anything where you're expending nuyen toward the goal of mental, emotional, or spiritual well-being would be acceptable.

Posted by: NightmareX Jun 23 2006, 06:22 AM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

Does this mean that you not only get money out of trading stock but also Karma?
Wait....You invest in stock, go sell it later, then have to immediately spend it on Karma? THat's a little weird...

Nope, you don't get karma per se. You get what basically amounts to points to plug into the same formula used for Money-for-Karma. That's why I refer to them as "psuedo-karma" points. Here's an example of the actual process of selling stock under this system:

QUOTE

Nightmare just completed another bit of wetwork, and has some nuyen he wants to invest. He doesn't know alot about investing, but he does have a rock solid fake SIN or three and a pretty wiz market analysis program (an agent - Pilot 4, Stock Analysis autosoft 4) a hacker friend sold him running on his home terminal. Taking the agent's advice he buys 20,000 ¥ of Proteus AG shares and sits on them for a while. A few weeks later his market analysis program chirps his PAN with a prospectis that basically says Proteus AG stock is going to take a hit soon (in the agent's opinion). Nightmare decides to play it safe and sell the stock. Since the agent is the actual entity doing the selling, Nightmare's player (me

) rolls 8 dice (the agent's Pilot + autosoft rating), getting 5 hits in the process. The GM rolls 1d6 to determine the threshold and gets a 3, giving the agent 2 net hits.

Since Nightmare is selling 20,000 ¥ worth of stock, the test generates 40 psuedo-karma ([20,000/1000] x 2 = 40). Knowing that Proteus AG's stock is already taking a minor dip due to recent shadow activity, the GM determines that today's Nuyen Multiplier is only 250 but doesn't tell Nightmare's player this. This means, using the Money-for-Karma formula, that the sale will generate 40d6 x 250 ¥. The GM, being a lazy bugger, decides to only roll 5d6 instead and multiply the result by 8 instead of going through the hassle of dragging out 40 six-siders*. The roll comes out to a whopping 12 (96 after multiplying by 8 to mimic 40d6). Therefore, the sale makes Nightmare 24,000 ¥ (96 x 250 = 24,000), a 4,000 ¥ profit which the GM explains as the program taking advantage of a momentary market spike. Since the net profit is so little, the GM decides to be nice a not require Nightmare to spend any actual karma on the transaction.

* Since he is a Shadowrun player, the GM has far more than 40 six-siders lying around, just in case

Again, some notes:
1) Notice that the GM used the Nuyen Multiplier to reflect the current approximate condition of Proteus AG's stocks, letting the mechanic reflect the setting.

2) Notice the GM didn't tell the player what the actual Nuyen Multiplier was, he only told the player what the market analysis program determined. This allowed him to fudge the Multiplier if the 40d6 roll was really high, thus maintaining setting integrity (ie Proteus AG's stock was in a slide and Nightmare wasn't going to profit much if at all from the sale) and excercise some control over just how much income Nightmare made by doing essentially nothing.

3) The GM didn't do it, but he would have been well within his rights to make Nightmare spend one or more actual karma points on the sale. This would have resulted in more profit (+1d6 x 250 ¥ per karma point), but would have helped enforce a bit of balance if the sale stood to be a major windfall.

QUOTE

What kind of justification can you give for getting Money for Karma??? Does anyone have examples?

Geekkake, Shadowmeet, Nim, and Serbitar pretty much covered this one.