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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Give the sammies a little love...

Posted by: Apathy Jun 16 2006, 07:52 PM

As a GM, I want every player in the game to feel like their PC's made an important contribution. My problem is that, while there's lots of threats that only mages can handle, I haven't really found many scenarios that can only be fixed by the street sam.

If they run across a high force (say, force 10) spirit, they're completely ineffective unless they have a conjuror or spellcaster.
If they run across a critter with regeneration, the only way to keep him from healing is with magic.

Actually, these examples are okay with me - I like it that mages can do things that nobody else can. But I want to come up with scenarios where the sams are essential, too. I don't want my next group to just be 4 mages and a TM rolling over everything...

What situations can anybody think of that require the sam's skills/abilities, but not the mage's?

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jun 16 2006, 08:00 PM

I think Sams start to shine when the lead fills the air.

Sams can get through the Astral barriers that stop mages and their bullets kill people just as well as power bolts without having to worry about hurting themselves in the process.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 16 2006, 08:04 PM

Hm, a firefight against a clever OpForce, or when the team gets ambushed, or when the mage is tired .

A mage with even a little offensive capabilities can influence situations where there's need for a streetsam. The rule 'geek the mage first' of course also counts for the OpForce... so the mage probably should take cover in a firefight.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 16 2006, 08:06 PM

If they run up against a F10 spirit, they've got a better chance than most character types to hurt it with mundane combat. Take a shotgun, load it with Stick-n-shock (dropping the armor of the spirit from 20 to 10 and giving them a shot at stunning it), and rip into it with a few rounds. If you have them using something BF or FA, you can eke out a few more points of damage without starting to drop a lot of pool that would otherwise go towards getting the successes you need to hit the thing.

The fact that it's not too hard to get spirits that are as heavily armored as a GMC Banshee is annoying, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be hurt by non-magical types. If there's some balance in the campaign, you'll only be seeing those hauled out with regularity when the opposition is capable of dealing with them.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 16 2006, 08:27 PM

QUOTE (Butterblume)

Hm, a firefight against a clever OpForce, or when the team gets ambushed, or when the mage is tired

.

A mage with even a little offensive capabilities can influence situations where there's need for a streetsam. The rule 'geek the mage first' of course also counts for the OpForce... so the mage probably should take cover in a firefight.

When the bullets flay, mages are at least as valuable as sammies, if not more so. There are lots of threads around here about how you can own everything with spirits and manaballs.

My problem isn't that mages are better suited for some tasks than sams. My problem is that I'm hard pressed to find any situations when sams are better than mages. If you had a lop-sided team composed of 1 decker/TM and all the rest mages, is there anything they'd be less effective at then a normal, balanced team?

In SR3, I used background count as a balancing factor, but it isn't defined yet in SR4.

Posted by: Nim Jun 16 2006, 08:41 PM

Hmm. Well, let's see.

* A gun-bunny can go through a looooong engagement, assuming they've got pockets full of reloads. In a running battle, the drain WILL start to add up for the mages.

* Some recent threads have touched pretty well on the problems with always keeping a stack of active foci or sustained spells going. That means that your mages aren't always going to have Improve Reactions going when they get jumped. Lacking anyone on the team who ALWAYS has an initiative bonus and several passes per turn, your mages might be blown to chum before they get a chance to start throwing the Manaballs.

* Mechanical threats. A White Knight is a lot more effective agaist a combat drone than a Powerball would be.

I'm sure there are others. Somebody?

Posted by: Nim Jun 16 2006, 08:43 PM

Oh. Another minor case: a street sam (with a grenade, or firing full-auto) can kill someone he can't see.

Posted by: Butterblume Jun 16 2006, 08:47 PM

So can a mage, if he knows an appropriate spell and is willing to risk the drain (indirect elemental combat spells tend to have a hefty on ).

Also, mages would probably not be happy about battling a few combat drones (when the mages aren't maxed out, of course).

Posted by: Lagomorph Jun 16 2006, 09:38 PM

Our street sam dodged in the open covered only by a smoke grenade, 4 tir ghosts using short bursts, for about 5 rounds. (thats 20 IP of dodging, and about 120 rounds btw).

Now thats shine.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 16 2006, 09:42 PM

they are also quite handy for niche skills.

like demolitions. very nice to have when you need it, and your typical mage or decker won't likely have it. and it's the kind of thing you definitely don't want to chip...

Posted by: Tiger Eyes Jun 16 2006, 10:11 PM

Mages and hackers have to dump a lot of buildpoints in becoming so specialized. A good sam, on the other hand, can actually have lots of useful skills.

Also, a point to remember is what kind of runs are you doing? Sure, a team with one hacker (or a technical adept, why not!) and a handful of spell slingers is going to be rocking. But what Johnson would be able to afford their fees? And why would a Johnson be hiring such a magic heavy team to go do some corporate demolitions or data thefts or... you get the point. That kind of team is going to get some very specific jobs.

However, a team with a couple of useful sams (and I don't mean cybered-to-the-gills min/max sams) boasting a variety of skill sets... plus a hacker and a mage (for those must-have magic moments) is going to be able to handle a much broader variety of jobs. More variety=more fun.

And in games where the mage isn't a combat monster the street sam shines even more. Personally, I like having a mage/shaman around for all the other nifty things they can do. Like physical mask, heal, levitate, summoning hordes of watchers... not the combat. Our philosophy: Let the sams blast stuff. We like to keep our mage fresh to heal the rest of us.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 16 2006, 10:16 PM

Your typical Sammie won't have it either, or if he does, he's usually played by the last guy you want to have explosives, in-game or otherwise.

Sammies... Really don't get any shine. In melee, they're outdone by PhysAds, in a gunfight they're outdone by Adepts who focus on firearms. They obviously only make third-rate hackers if they even hack at all........ Hmmmmmm....

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 16 2006, 10:21 PM

the job of the mage, first and foremost, is counterspelling, banishing, and astral reconisance. Healing and illusion are the best spells for a mage to have. combat is a distant third, and only really necessary against certain paranormal threats.

If your in a firefight, with 10 guys with guns and two spirits? the mage is too busy with the spirits to worry about the 10 guys with assault rifles. those guys with guns are the sams job.

A sam, from a practical standpoint, has 3+ IP, boosted senses, smartlink, and better agility, and better resistance to gunfire. They have more boosts than any un-initiated adept could have. (the adept has more skill in his niche than a sam ever can).

a Street Samuri's first job is combat, both neutralizing the enemy (normaly with lethal force but not always), and defending his team. A sam's second job will depend on the individual. (personaly, i like armory and hardware skills).

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 16 2006, 10:42 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

there not outdone in ranged combat,phys ads get what 3 dice in a specific skill at best for 1.5 magic, the sam gets +1 die in all firearms for .2 essense. If anyone should complain about there talents it should be the physad who spends a ton more to get slightly better. The one area physads seem to shine is defense, combat sense+mystic armor+magic resistance make them super tanks.

Sammies get a lot for a little early on. Sure long run after tons of karms the phys ad is better in a couple specific fields, but in the begining chances are the sammie is better by a large margin.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 16 2006, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 16 2006, 05:16 PM)

And can also potentially have just as huge bonuses all over the place if they ever get money and access to beta or possibly even delta grade 'ware.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 16 2006, 11:04 PM

Most of the physad gunbunnies I see get contact smartlinks and the bio Wired equivalent. It's kind of pathetic, actually... they haven't figured out the fact that yeah, you're spending 2 more magic levels than to do that as an ability rather than just getting the ware, but you save a lot of cash in the process and can push it to level 3 later...

I am sad that smartlinks not being as cool if they weren't the cyber ones went away. That was one of the things I wish we'd kept around.

A physad gunbunny is going to be really amazingly good at *one* of the gun skills. He'll probably be pretty good at the others, but when he ends up in a situation where his equipment is somewhat restricted (can't smuggle in a rifle, can't scrounge up a machine pistol or assault rifle in the CZ, the guy you're shooting at is outside the 60m max range of your handgun, etc) they get annoyed A lot of the sammies have a number of combat skills to pick and choose from at nearly the same number of dice (ie: more than a lot of the people around them).

Posted by: nezumi Jun 16 2006, 11:13 PM

Something else to consider, you can always introduce new rules or weapons to help even the odds. Characters with lots of ware apply their essence index as a bonus against magic (it works against heal spells, and OR generally makes magic more difficult. So why not?) All of a sudden, the mages are good against mages and spirits, but a wired street same will give them a little more reason to pause. Alternatively, consider making an offensive magical weapon ("dual natured bullets", for lack of a better term) mundanes can wield. If they have the ability to hurt things like spirits, or somehow bomb an area with a temporary background count, that makes them a lot more fearsome (and makes curious astral intruders a little less uber).

Posted by: Nim Jun 17 2006, 02:17 AM

QUOTE (nezumi)

Alternatively, consider making an offensive magical weapon ("dual natured bullets", for lack of a better term) mundanes can wield. If they have the ability to hurt things like spirits, or somehow bomb an area with a temporary background count, that makes them a lot more fearsome (and makes curious astral intruders a little less uber).

I'm thinking this would work best as something more like a toxin that interacts somehow with the victim's magical ability. There's already a drug that forces you into Astral Perception and affects magic use in a positive way...it's not a very long step to one that does the opposite. Or, say, makes your magical gift uncontrollable and personally dangerous.

Posted by: Dudukain Jun 17 2006, 02:39 AM

I'd rather have a street samurai with wired reflexes 3 and a LMG backing me up then a mage.

Posted by: Cain Jun 17 2006, 03:54 AM

Generally speaking, a well-built sam can front-load himself into an extreme combat machine. Right out of the gate, they can (and should) be faster, more accurate, and more dangerous than any other archetype.

The key to making any character valueable in SR4 is hyperspecialization. If you try and make a generalist, you'll just end up being outshone in more areas. Despite its claims to the contrary, the game rewards those who have a really tight focus. You're better off-- mechanically and roleplay-wise-- creating someone who's a super-expert in one or two areas and passable in several others, than trying for someone who's decent in all of them.

It's impossible to be truly effective in all forms of combat, and it's more efficient to focus on a single type of combat. For example, it costs you 40 points to max out your firearms group. For those same 40 points, you could take your primary attack skill to 5 (let's say Automatics-- you're wanting a John Woo, dual-SMG, gun-fu expert). You then spend 16 points to raise longarms and pistols to 2, and then spend 3 points to specialize in each of the categories. (Actually, given the concept, you're better off only putting 1 in Longarms, since that doesn't really fit your concept overly much. You can move it to pistols, making you a bit more versatile and capable, since pistols are the most common firearm; or you can put it into automatics, making you more deadly overall.) The net result? For 39 points, you're at an effective 7 dice in your primary skill, and at an effective 4 dice in everything else.

The same thing applies to your cyber choices, which are the heart of the street sam archetype. If you try and diversify too much, you'll just end up ineffective in more areas. You're better off focusing tightly on one or two areas. For example, it's impossible to get someone who is at once an effective meat shield, effective dodging machine, effective sniper, effective combat shootist, and an effective decker/rigger/techhead all in one. You're better off focusing on one area, having a second area as a backup, and being passable in the rest.

For some reson, pointing this stuff out tends to enrage a lot of SR4 fans. The system isn't designed to favor balanced characters-- that's just the way it is. In SR4, Diversity = mediocrity, and medicore characters just aren't much fun.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 17 2006, 04:27 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

while this is true, to some extent, the advantage to sams is still the fact that they can afford to be a "specialist" with a secondary function, and still have more BP to play around with being a generalist than a mage, or a decker, or even a rigger, to some extent.

unless, of course, you're going to be a very specific sort of decker, rigger, or mage i suppose.

alternately, the sam may even have the BP to start off as a "specialist" in two different areas, depending on how it goes. likely can afford higher all-around stats as well.

Posted by: DrowVampyre Jun 17 2006, 04:49 AM

Actually, the sammie can be the ultimate generalist -and- and extremely effective specialisty. Specialize in your ranged combat (or melee, perhaps, if you're a troll), then grab yourself some skillwires - bam, instant generalist in anything you want. Now, you can't use Edge, true, but you're still likely to be better off than the guy with no skills trying to default all the time with occasional uses of Edge...

Posted by: Glyph Jun 17 2006, 04:54 AM

One thing that hasn't changed is that the sammie is still the best overall combat generalist. They can start out with an assortment of combat boosts that no starting adept could afford (adepts are better at being specialists and dealing with awakened enemies). Sammies have that crucial mix of offensive capability, speed, and durability. They are the best at taking out groups of enemies while protecting the other members of the team.

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 17 2006, 05:23 AM

hard cap for unaugmented human: 16 dice (ability 7, skill 7, specialixzation)
hard cap for an adept: 22 (ability 7(10), skill 7(10), specialization) [higher with social]
hard cap for a sam: 20 (ability 7(10), skill 7(8 ), specialization) [limited selection]

to reach that cap, an adept needs about 7 or 8 magic (depending on skill type). the starting cap is closer to 21. At chargen, the sam and adept are very close in limits, but the sam can reach his more easily.

as for more general abilities... long run, you can get 12 dice in anything/everything. anything OVER 12 dice needs you to exceed the human limit, get legendary skill, specialize, whatever. Therefore, 12+ dice is VERY good. it can on average get 4 hits, or a critical success.

and 12 dice is pretty easy to get. you can do it in multiple skills at chargen with relative ease. the sam can do it easier than the adpet.

Posted by: DrowVampyre Jun 17 2006, 09:10 AM

Add 1 to the sammie's hard cap - they can grab a reflex recorder, after all.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 17 2006, 09:57 AM

I think that's why he had 7(8 ). But reflex recorders are not the only 'ware that give bonuses. A sammie can equal an adept in logic-based skills (+3 from cerebral booster vs. +3 from improved ability). For physical skills, they can add enhanced articulation to a reflex recorder for +2 dice. For athletics, they can also add synthcardium for another +3 (and both enhanced articulation and synthcardium give dice pool bonuses, rather than adding to the skill, so they don't fall under the augmented ability cap). Tailored pheromes can give a sammie a +3 bonus to social skills, although they don't even begin to approach the brokenness that is tailored pheromes.

One thing that will keep adepts and sammies more equal is the incredibly high cost of improving an attribute with magic. I don't see many adepts spending 6 points simply to get +3 on an attribute (the attribute boost power, on the other hand, is much more feasible - the only major drawback is that it takes a simple action to activate).

Posted by: Cain Jun 18 2006, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (DrowVampyre)

The problem is that you've got a starting skillsoft cap at rating 3, and at 9000:nuyen: each, you're not going to have a tremendous stack of them. You're going to end up more mediocre than a generalist. Still, it can work well-- I built a street sam with that same principle in mind, and it keeps him from having any glaring weaknesses. You still can't get someone who's more than passable in a lot of areas, though.

Posted by: ornot Jun 18 2006, 03:25 PM

I thought skillsofts capped at 4

Posted by: knasser Jun 18 2006, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (ornot)

I thought skillsofts capped at 4

Skillwires cap at 5, but activesofts cap at 4. I'd assumed that it was an error but I don't know which one is wrong (although knowsofts cap at 5 as well). It's possible that it's not an error though as you can load more than one activesoft at a time up to the limit of your skillwires. So Pistols 4 and Dodge 1 etc.

The nice thing with skillwires and activesofts now, is that they're so cheap you can justify security being fitted with them.

Posted by: Clyde Jun 18 2006, 04:32 PM

The Sammie shines when the lead is flying.

High Reaction makes him hard to hit in the first place.
High Reaction makes your guy go first.
All the gun skills, not just one or two, so the Sammie's good no matter what's up.

Posted by: Nim Jun 18 2006, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (knasser)

QUOTE (ornot @ Jun 18 2006, 10:25 AM)

I thought skillsofts capped at 4

Speaking of making them cheap...is it possible to get a skillsoft for a speciality? From the book, I'm not seeing much either for or against.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 18 2006, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

A sammie can equal an adept in logic-based skills (+3 from cerebral booster vs. +3 from improved ability).

Are Cerebral Boosters counted as natural or augmented in terms of hitting the caps, and for later increases? For instance, if a sam starts the game with Logic 5 and a Cerebral Booster 2 for startig Logic of 7, can he still increase his Logic with Karma, or is he stuck because he hit the hard cap for that attribute? And if he still could increase his Logic, how much Karma would it cost?

Also remember that adepts can get 'ware, same as a sam. They just need to initiate to get rid of the magic loss. This is mpracticable in practice, though; it means the adept is paying far more to get the same benefits as the sam.

Posted by: ornot Jun 18 2006, 11:20 PM

I'd consider cerebral boosters to be augmenting the natural attribute.

Hence you can increase your Natural attribute up to the racial maximum be it 6 for humans, elves and dwarves or 5 for orcs and so on. Were a character to boost their augmented attribute to the augmented maximum without having already reached their normal racial maximum, they could indeed increase their natural rating to the max with karma, but it would make no difference to the dice rolled as they had already hit the augmented cap.

I'm not sure whether it is even possible to reach the augmented cap without also reaching the racial maximum, but if it is possible that's how I'd rule it. After all the character can always get the 'ware removed at a later stage and return to their natural rating.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jun 18 2006, 11:28 PM

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

Are Cerebral Boosters counted as natural or augmented in terms of hitting the caps, and for later increases?

That question is quite easy to answer in SR4 - it's ware, so it's augmented.

Posted by: Dudukain Jun 19 2006, 06:58 PM

The weird part is, when you get down to it, street samurai are basically mundane adepts. They harness cybernetics to make themselves more powerful, and basically can get similar benefits to adepts.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 19 2006, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (Dudukain)

The weird part is, when you get down to it, street samurai are basically mundane adepts. They harness cybernetics to make themselves more powerful, and basically can get similar benefits to adepts.

Not weird at all, except that an adept doesn't die from getting a huge magic score. A sammy does when his ess hits 0.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 20 2006, 12:30 AM

QUOTE (Dudukain)

I'd rather have a street samurai with wired reflexes 3 and a LMG backing me up then a mage.

Really? I'd rather have a good mage/shaman with a high-forece spirit.

The only real thing that sammies have going for them is the resources they can bring to a run. They've not spent anything on magic, or crazy tank drones, or programs, or mad skills. In-fact the street sam definition is so loose that I don't think they need to have spent anything whatsoever.

Yes, this is in some ways a repetition of what others are saying. Some people say the fact that they can take varied skills is an advantage, but I consider that to be merely an aspect of the whole picture. Really any character with skillwires can cover the skill-monkey role just as well, and almost any cybered character has a good reason to have them.

Another place where the sammies can shine, however, is in purchasing power. Having the right tool for the right job is an important concept.

Also, don't underestimate positive qualities. Maybe Photographic Memory, Spirit Affinity, or Magic Resistance would be useful?

Still, there's relatively little that allows a sammie to actively go out and shine. Not like a mage can by being creative with spirits.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 20 2006, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jun 16 2006, 10:11 PM)

Mages and hackers have to dump a lot of buildpoints in becoming so specialized. A good sam, on the other hand, can actually have lots of useful skills.

Mages get an awesome amount of versatility for what they spend. The ability to summon spirits can cover for countless skills.

@Cain: That's kindof true. The thing that makes mages really powerful, however, is to specialise in something which is innately versatile. It's like specialising with a gun that can also let you socialise and infiltrate stealthily.

Posted by: ornot Jun 20 2006, 01:20 AM

I'd say the problem mages face is the heavy karma cost to improve their abilities. Initiating, learning new spells, binding foci, and improving their magic active skills.

I don't think Sams are that bad off though. 'Ware is cool ^^ and they do get to buy a bunch of skills that a mage with such a heavy drain on karma can ill afford to buy. Sure you can summon a spirit or cast a spell to offset the lack of skill, but that only goes so far, and that assumes you even know an appropriate spell. Depending on what your GM throws at you Sam can be the most effective characters in a game. If the Mages are dominating give them something more dangerous to worry about, like magical foes, and let the Sams do what they're best at.

I also believe that a Sam can boost their skills with judicious use of 'ware to levels rivaling that of an adept with a smaller investment of BPs/karma/nuyen. Unless you're swamping your players with karma, magical characters shouldn't overbalance the game. Straight out of the box a Sam is more versatile and more effective than the magical types, who've had to sink a lot of BPs into being magical.

That being said I do discourage too many spellcasters among my players, but at the moment I've the opposite problem... Most of my party are toting wired reflexes 2!

Posted by: Cain Jun 20 2006, 06:36 AM

QUOTE

@Cain: That's kindof true. The thing that makes mages really powerful, however, is to specialise in something which is innately versatile. It's like specialising with a gun that can also let you socialise and infiltrate stealthily.

Well, even then, you get mages who specialize in certain kinds of magic. The dedicated conjurors, combat mages, and stealth mages are all totally different builds, and get rewarded heavily for it. The difference is that a generalist mage is more capable than a generalist mundane. If you get a mage who hasn't specialized in magic to some degree, you're going to end up with a fairly ineffective character.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 20 2006, 02:54 PM

QUOTE (Cain)

Yes and no... Mages can initiate and take metamagics like centering which add to all magical abilities. They can buy power foci, which are remarkably cheap under this edition for what they do. Magic and Willpower are rolled for both conjuring and spellcasting, so a boost to either of them would be good. It is possible to get a fair bit by specialising, but you also lose a lot if you abandon aspects of magic which you could otherwise be fairly good at.

It may just be that I value versatility, but I'd rather have a character who wins in most situations rather than oblitterating a few and struggling in others.

@ornot: Mages have to pay increasing amounts of karma, yes. Sammies, however, have an even worse time as their upgrade procedure involves paying more than they did in the first place for gear they already have already, then paying a lot for whatever high-grade ware can fit in the tiny essence slot they opened-up.

QUOTE

Straight out of the box a Sam is more versatile and more effective than the magical types, who've had to sink a lot of BPs into being magical.

Erm. Are you joking? You've never seen a well-made and well-played mage, have you? A mage could 'more versatile and more effective' a sammie's cyberarm up the sammie's ass and activate his cybergun.

When I said that magic was versatile, I meant it. They have to sink a lot of BPs into it, but they get so much in return that it's not funny. You can do many things only the most stealthy covert ops specialist could do just by astrally projecting. The sort of things that a clever shaman can do with spirits just boggles the mind. An air spirit can carry up-high removing the need for climbing skills, an appropriate spirit can conceal you which covers a lot of stealth (I've never seen a PC mage without invisibility either), an earth spirit can stand infront of you and fight for you, A beast spirit can be conjured to deal with animals (control them to attack their handlers or just to avoid the party), a water spirit can even control the weather ('removing the need' for meteorology skills

).

And yes, I too have seen the problem that everyone goes sammie. I once saw a team with a face, a sammie, a covert ops expert, and a mercenary all boasting very, very, low essences and very high initiatives. Whilst it's a good thing that not everyone's playing nigh-godlike mages, if they have no magical characters then it does mean that the GM can't throw a half-decent mage at the party without risking a TPK.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 03:02 PM

QUOTE

Really any character with skillwires can cover the skill-monkey role just as well, and almost any cybered character has a good reason to have them.

As a guy that's running a skillwire character I have to disagree with that. You can't get skill ratings as high with wires as you can with normal skills, you can't spend edge on wired skills, and those programs are expensive as hell (at least in games with a moderate to low income rate).

QUOTE

If you get a mage who hasn't specialized in magic to some degree, you're going to end up with a fairly ineffective character.

LOL

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 20 2006, 03:09 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

QUOTE (Cain)

QUOTE

Straight out of the box a Sam is more versatile and more effective than the magical types, who've had to sink a lot of BPs into being magical.

However, you can't trace a sammie as easily as you can a mage. A. Magic is not that common. B. Using high Force anything leaves behind a nice bright trail.

Whereas the sammie can go in, shoot up the place, walk out, and only have to worry about their face possibly being identified. A mage has to go and spend time to cover up their tracks both physically like the sammie, and astrally.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 03:11 PM

"A" is true, but to varying degrees depending on the campaign. What percentage of the population is awakened, and how that portion divides out among adepts, mages, and others is not specificed in SR4. It can be as common or uncommon as a GM wants.

Posted by: Grinder Jun 20 2006, 03:14 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

Really any character with skillwires can cover the skill-monkey role just as well, and almost any cybered character has a good reason to have them.

True, but I always enjoyed having a character who's a jack-of-all-trades. And shines in some skills; the ones he learned the hard way.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 03:19 PM

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it isn't fun. I've enjoyed the character a lot. It just isn't as useful as having actualy meat skills, and isn't as powerful as it seems at first.

Posted by: Grinder Jun 20 2006, 04:16 PM

Agreed

But always better to have a sammie with the needed skill (even if he's only having a few points in it) than having noone with the skill

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 04:19 PM

Not when the skill is "Naked Overweight Dancing."

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 20 2006, 04:32 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Not when the skill is "Naked Overweight Dancing."

What if you have to infiltrate a Chipendales show?

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 04:39 PM

Then you'll probably want to avoid the overweight part unless you're Chris Farley dancing with Patrick Swayze.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 20 2006, 05:41 PM

Okay, the general feedback I've gotten seems to be: "Street Sams have their uses, and make good generalists, but there's nothing that they can accomplish (except maybe decking) that can't also be done by mages and adepts." With this in mind, I'm thinking about house-ruling away some of the things that require mages or adepts to overcome.

What does everybody think would happen if I made the critter power of regeneration work against both physical and magical damage. In other words, if they healed from the manabolt as easily as they healed from the assault rifle?

Posted by: K2Grey Jun 20 2006, 06:48 PM

Regeneration doesn't work against central nervous system damage, though, as referenced by the book (called shot to the head). While I dislike called shots, shouldn't a sammie breeze over that? After all a sammie will likely roll a ton more dice to shoot than the enemy rolls to dodge and if you've shot the critter into physical overflow the wound modifiers ought to make it easy prey for the called shot.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 20 2006, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

Really any character with skillwires can cover the skill-monkey role just as well, and almost any cybered character has a good reason to have them.

I don't think that getting the skills high is all that much of an issue. I suppose I can see the advantage of grabbing a bunch of skills 'naturally' though. When I said skill-monkey, I was thinking things like outdoors skills and nautical mechanic skills which are nice to have but are hardly critical. Even a rating 1 skillsoft gives a good dice pool when combined with an attribute, which can save the party or reveal useful information. That's what I mean by skill-monkey, having the right skill for the right job rather than being able to throw 20 dice to do something obscure.

I'd usually be happy for the party to just have a medium-rated demolitions skillsoft... Better to have one than to have nobody with demolitions. I do see the advantage, however, of being able to spend edge on it so I might consider advising taking Demolitions 1 to the next Edge 8 guy I see someone make.

@X-Kalibur: Good point that mages can trace mages, but there are other ways around it. If the mage summons a spirit to do it, summoning from far enough away not to arouse suspicion or soon enough in advance that his own signature has faded, then the only signature on the crime scene will be that odf the spirit. That may potentially lead to repurcussions if the spirit's bound and recognised on a later use, but not every time. Another option is to go for the high-drain but more-effective spells but cast them at low force. Facing 4 mooks, four low-force mannaballs will fade faster than 4 higher-force mannabolts and could equally-likely take the group out.

Mages also have the option of using stun spells (sometimes referred to as 'sleep' spells) which are far less obtrusive than shooting a place up. That buys them the extra time they need to clear their signature, or they can just walk away and rely on the fact that no crime was comitted. If they really want someone dead then they can just slit their unconcious throat.

The problem of astral signatures eventually goes away to some extent once they pick-up the Flexible Signature metamagic. Add a few more grades of initiation onto that and they reduce the duration that their sicnature stays for down significantly, not leaving any for lower-force magic.

Posted by: Cain Jun 20 2006, 07:13 PM

QUOTE

That's what I meant by the fact that a mage has to specialize in magic. If they get into a situation where magic isn't quite as valueable, then they're just as hosed as anyone else. Drones, for example, can be a mage's nightmare.

A hyperspecialized starting sam is looking at a minimum of 15 attack dice, far more than a starting mage can get under most circumstances.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 07:17 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

If the mage summons a spirit to do it, summoning from far enough away not to arouse suspicion or soon enough in advance that his own signature has faded, then the only signature on the crime scene will be that odf the spirit.

I know it's just a house rule (and one that hasn't even been implemented yet) but I would have the tie between spirit and summoner show up on the crime's astral signature. Spirits are beefy enough without letting them be used as trace free assassins, burglars, etc.

Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 07:25 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

That certainly seems reasonable from a worldview perspective. You could even have the tie be stronger (ie, easier to track) if the spirit was bound, rather than merely summoned.

Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 07:30 PM

Hmm. Another option, actually, would be to allow a mage who gets enough assensing hits on a spirit's astral signature to then turn around and summon THAT SPIRIT, and use that as an avenue for finding out who summoned it. That depends a bit on how you think spirits work, though. Was that fire elemental summoned away from an independent existence to which it returned afterwards, or did the summoning CREATE the spirit out of th energy of the appropriate metaplane? And does it make a difference whether or not the spirit was Sapient?

Posted by: Apathy Jun 20 2006, 07:39 PM

QUOTE (K2Grey)

...But that's already true. I'm not advocating making the sammie's damage potential any greater, only maybe making mages slightly less powerful for this one particular scenario.

That said, I'd agree that called shots are exceptionally powerful. +4 DV (which would, on average, require 12 dice) in exchange for just giving up 4 dice is a no-brainer. Also, the way the rules are layed out it's still half-way abstracted and don't make sense to me. Say I've got a goon in 8/6 armor but no helmet - I have to choose between bypassing armor and upping damage, even though logically a head shot in that scenario would do both.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 07:52 PM

Nim: that's a good rule. I think if it comes up I'll use that instead of my option. It hasn't been needed yet, but players and GMs love to come up with crazy ideas, so I'm sure it'll happen eventually.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 08:05 PM

QUOTE (Apathy)

Say I've got a goon in 8/6 armor but no helmet - I have to choose between bypassing armor and upping damage, even though logically a head shot in that scenario would do both.

In that case your called shot to the head is a called shot to negate armor. Called shots come in a few varieties. One is bypassing armor, one is upping damage value, and one is for special effects. How each of those occur is up to the player and GM. Sometimes a called shot to up DV means you hit him in the head, but sometimes it might mean you got him square in the chest. A called shot to bypass armor may mean you hit him in the head, or it may mean you found a crease where his armor is thinner to allow for more mobility.

That said though, my group doesn't use called shots except when thematically appropriate. The +4 DV one is never thematically appropriate, especially since it's just a way to turn lots of dice into even more damage than normal. Obviously YMMV, but we've ignored called shots for the most part in every game system we've played in the last 10 years and never regretted it.

Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

If you mean the idea about summoning the spirit the runners used and then expending a service to order it to tell you all about what happened...it's pretty tempting. It would have a MAJOR impact on the utility of spirits to runners, though. Bringing a spirit in on your run would be like involving an accomplice who you KNOW will instantly spill their guts if the other side finds them...and then leaving their comm ID at the scene of the crime. Mages would need to be a lot more proactive about cleaning up their traces - or else would have to expend services to order the spirits to clean up after themselves.

If you decide to go there, you might want to rule that spirits that are still Bound can't be summoned by anyone else...or maybe give the summoning a threshold based on the strength of the current binding. That would make unbound spirits something you use mainly when you're not expecting opposition.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 20 2006, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

I would agree that the called shot to up DV seems broken, and are sufficiently represented by just getting lots of successes ("18 successes? you shot him right through the eye...")

I don't find the rules for called shots to bypass armor to be unbalanced, since your giving up dice to reduce the target's soak roll by an equal amount of dice. There are times when bypassing doesn't make sense (no, you cant bypass the armor on the spirit's immunity - there is no weak spot that isn't covered), but most of the time it'll basically be a wash.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 08:53 PM

I don't see a big problem with bypassign armor either, except when used to bypass hardened armor (perhaps from being inside a vehicle) or spirit armor (as you say, there are no weak spots). The rest of the time ignoring armor is usually fine.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 20 2006, 09:48 PM

Actually, I don't have much of a problem with using it to bypass hardened armor, either. You're targeting a part of the vehicle that's not as well armored as the rest, be it a view slit, the tires, the vents for the engine or some other spot where it's just not as well protected.

I houseruled the -1 die for +1 DV thing out of existence.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 10:28 PM

I'm not talking about bypassing hardened armor to hurt the vehicle, but to hurt people inside. Someone gave an example of shooting someone in the back of an armored vehicle, which doesn't make a lot of sense given that there's no weak spots to find on a giant box of metal.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 20 2006, 10:46 PM

QUOTE (Apathy @ Jun 20 2006, 05:41 PM)

What I'd suggest, if you want to encourage sammies, is to make cyberlimbs cheaper (or more powerful by default, and cheaper to increase). Some people rate Wired Reflexes and the Smartlink as the epitomy of sammie gear, but really it's good for faces and covert ops too. Cyberlimbs are the epitomy of physical advancement through cyberware which is the sammie, often too obvious for faces and covert ops, so if you encourage them (particularly the obvious versions) by making them cheaper and more powerful then you have a clear push for sammies.

Posted by: Cain Jun 21 2006, 02:28 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

There's plenty of spots that are weaker on a hardened vehicle, and they tend to be centered around the passenger compartment. Bulletproof glass simply isn't as tough as steel plate. Calling a shot to hit the driver is a lot more believeable than calling a shot to hit the distributor cap.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 02:30 AM

Reread the example.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 21 2006, 03:10 PM

As far as calling shots to bypass armor on vehicles, maybe we should just exercise more GM discretion on that. In an example where they're trying to shoot through the less-armored glass, the armor would logically drop some (maybe from 8 to 4 on the brinks truck), but wouldn't disappear altogether. If you try to bypass armor to hit people in a tank, the GM just says "No" and slaps you with a carp™.

(to Lilt):
I agree with your statement in principle, but don't think I could make house rules for cyber-limbs without breaking a lot of other stuff and making character generation more complicated. Unless somebody else has good suggestions for cyberlimb house rules I'll just table that one until the appropriate supplemental (Arsenal?) comes out.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 21 2006, 04:30 PM

QUOTE (Apathy)

(to Lilt):
I agree with your statement in principle, but don't think I could make house rules for cyber-limbs without breaking a lot of other stuff and making character generation more complicated. Unless somebody else has good suggestions for cyberlimb house rules I'll just table that one until the appropriate supplemental (Arsenal?) comes out.

What? Balance isn't that delicate. You could quite easily start obvious cyberlimb stats at 4s (rather than 3s) across the board and they'd become more worthwhile. Another good (practically nessecary) idea is to apply metatype stat mods to cyberlimbs. Otherwise trolls can't even buy cyberarms as strong as they are normally unless tey also get cybertorsos, which makes no sense.

That's not broken and makes cyberlimbs worthwhile for the normally-stronger metatypes. It's not entierly nessecary, but you can also cut the price of them by 10 to 20% (particularly for obvious limbs).

If you want for sammies to shine then make it so that they can. Waiting for arsenal is fine, but I would in no way expect that to solve anything. If you expect a book to put the aspect of the game it's based on ahead in the world, remember there'll be a magic book out at some point too.

Posted by: phelious fogg Jun 21 2006, 05:05 PM

The easiest thing to do would to say cyberlimbs start at the users normal stats.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 21 2006, 05:36 PM

The houserule I use is that cyberlimbs have stats matching their users, except their strength is set to racial maximum. Strength is the only stat upgrade you can buy for cyberlimbs (to avoid insanity like the Agility-tweaked cyberarm gunner). If a character increases one of his other stats naturally, he requires an hour or so in a cybershop (or a couple of days occasionally tweaking at the limb settings with his commlink... I should really figure out an Extended Cybertechnology test for this) in order to "tune" the limb to balance it out with the rest of his body again, during which time he takes a -1 penalty per different stat point to any actions involving the limb (obviously, this would rarely be more than a -1).

Armoring cyberlimbs is something I haven't bothered with... it's too much of a pain in the ass under the current (lack of) rules.

Posted by: Cain Jun 21 2006, 08:53 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Reread the example.

I did. Your example had nothing to do with your argument.

In general, most vehicles with hardened armor aren't going to be solid boxes of metal; every vehicle with any armor is automatically hardened, so we're talking about mid-to-lightly armored passenger cars. Even on the high end, Citymasters still have window-slits, and even tanks have vulnerable spots.

Saying "you can't call a shot to the passenger compartment of any vehicle with armor, because there's never any weak holes in a metal box" is a fallacy of the first order.

If you want to make a logical argument, then I suggest:

Rewrite the example.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 08:59 PM

I never said "you can't call a shot to the passenger compartment of any vehicle with armor, because there's never any weak holes in a metal box" despite your attempts to make it look like I did by surrounding it in quotes.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 21 2006, 10:21 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Bypassing that much armor on a seriously armored vehicle would slap on enough penalties that I'd start thinking about disallowing even a Long Shot to try for it, and tell the player to try shooting something a little more reasonable.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 10:55 PM

I agree, but per the most rules lawyery interpretation of the rules if a target is inside a large glass box with wheels and is getting 5 armor from it, all it costs you is 5 dice to make it as if that solid box doesn't exist. A more liberal interpretation will look at the "target an area not protected by armor" clause and say "sorry, he has no area not protected by armor, so you can't take the called shot."

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 21 2006, 11:54 PM

Heh... to be honest, I think the "target an area not protected by armor" ruling is a perfect example of rules lawyering towards reasonability.

"Hey, it doesn't say there has to BE an area not protected by armor..."

Posted by: 2bit Jun 22 2006, 12:00 AM

I'm gonna nod in agreement with cyberlimb mods suggestion; I think the right way to go is to make the samurai tougher; here are some suggestions i'm brainstorming off the top of my head:

Nerf Mystic armor (raise cost or take away ballistic bonus)
Every X amount of essence lost acts as 1 level of pain tolerance
Every X amount of essnece lost confers some other mixed blessing
Cyberlimbs act as pain tolerance
Decrease healing time for characters with cyberlimbs
make up cyberlimb mods (str, body, armor) as suggested
Invent damage scattering rules for characters with cyberlimbs (shudder)

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 12:59 AM

On the original topic: my group has a mage, a rigger/sammie hybrid, a gunbunnie street sam, and a face. The street sam has never complained about being overpowered by the mage, despite the mage being played by a true minmaxer.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 22 2006, 03:39 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

A lack of complaints in one instance doesn't mean anything on the whole sammy versus mage debait.
The sammie could be glad of powerful magical backup, or perhaps even not understand that he is insignificant (like a bug) compared to the power of the mage. Perhaps he expects to be out-done by the min-maxxer no-matter what respective characters they choose, or perhaps the mage is holding back with his true powers as an ace in the hole. Another possibility is that the min-maxxer screwed-up and didn't actually make a powerful character, or that the sammie is just content that his character's stronger physically.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 22 2006, 03:52 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Actually, it does mean something. It means that the only people who are bothered by any power difference, are the ones who are dissecting the rules.

Seriously, if your game has a problem with mages overpowering the sammies, make it better for the sams. Give them ware with better features and less essence. Give them enemies with horrible amounts of magic resistance.

If your game doesn't have that problem, or the players are content with their roles, then there is no problem. After all, the game is about having fun, not balancing things out. Life is unfair. So is game life sometimes.

Posted by: Grinder Jun 22 2006, 04:02 PM

In my campaigns and one-shot-games we never had the problem that a mage outhshines sammies in every way. Mages and adepts can become very powerful in the long run, thanks to no limit in their magic increase, while a sammie can only get so much new cyber/bio, but he can focus instead on a broad range of skills.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 22 2006, 04:52 PM

QUOTE (Shadowmeet)

Actually, it does mean something. It means that the only people who are bothered by any power difference, are the ones who are dissecting the rules.

You think that no complaints in one instance means that? If only researchers could back-up their projects with such rigorously un-tested evidence...

I have run a game which involved a mage, an adept, and a coupple of sammie types. Although they weren't exactly complaints, it was noted that there were encounters which the mundane characters had little chance against and the magical characters (a melee adept and a cat shaman) were noted as being more powerful in certain other encounters too. These comments were made by players who were not dissecting the rules.

Now, I admit that the above game was run under 3rd edition. I can hardly see it going the other way if it was run under 4th edition though. Adepts have been given a power boost under 4th edition, and shamans are still generally very powerful (spirits are generally more powerful with an array of powerful abilities, shamans can now bind spirits, and now they don't need to worry about taking unbound spirits across domain lines).

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 05:03 PM

You're right about one instance not meaning much on a more upper level view. Of course, my experience is all I have to offer, so that's what I did.

I will say that both the sammie and the mage in my group are minmaxers (they aren't the onle ones). The sammie knocks people over as fast as the mage does, and is better at stealth. The sammie is better at taking damage, primarily because of those wonderful little things called platelet factories. Overall the two seem well balanced, but we also tend to run sessions where every character gets their time in the sun. Shadowrun is primarily a game about teamwork. No archetype, even the adept or mage, can go it alone and excel in all instances, at least not until a huge chunk of karma down the road, in which case they'll be good generalists but not as good as a specialist.

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 05:19 PM

QUOTE (Grinder)

Actually, I was thinking about the whole Magic-increase issue, and I think I figured out part of what bothers me about advancement for magicians. It's just too...boring.

As a street-sam advances, he has to think about what 'ware he wants...there are tradeoffs, because there's more good ware than you can have all at once. Karma-wise, there are lots of skills to pick from that enhance different aspects of their role. Stealth skills, direct combat skills and athletics are obvious, but they also benefit from a smattering of other skills. There are several paths for advancement.

With magicians, advancement pretty much consists of: max out Spellcasting. Possibly max out some conjuring skills. Initiate. Raise Magic. Initiate. Raise Magic. Rinse. Repeat. Occasionally pick up a new spell. It just feels very one-dimensional. If there were more paths of advancement for magicians, more diversity, it might end up hitting some of the perceived balance issues also.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 22 2006, 05:20 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

I will say that both the sammie and the mage in my group are minmaxers (they aren't the onle ones). The sammie knocks people over as fast as the mage does, and is better at stealth. The sammie is better at taking damage, primarily because of those wonderful little things called platelet factories. Overall the two seem well balanced, but we also tend to run sessions where every character gets their time in the sun. Shadowrun is primarily a game about teamwork. No archetype, even the adept or mage, can go it alone and excel in all instances, at least not until a huge chunk of karma down the road, in which case they'll be good generalists but not as good as a specialist.

Weird. Does the mage use spirits ever? What about astral projection? Does he have the invisibility spell?

It's all fair to say that he's run by a min-maxxer, but a concealing spirit and the invisibility spell are about as much stealth as anyone needs. Failing that astrally projecting can let you scout stealthily. Spirits can soak-up more damage than platet factories, they're pretty-much immune to most attacks and they can just be re-summoned. I'm not going to argue which one downs people faster, that depends a lot on spell and equipment selection.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 05:21 PM

Not necessarily. If you want to be truly versatile you coul spend a huge amount of karma just learning spells before even looking at upping your initiate grade, skills, or magic attribute. There's also mentor spirits to contact, specializations to choose, and foci to create/buy/bond.

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 05:26 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Yeah. Intellectually, I can look at it and see that there ARE decisions being made. But it still feels like mages of a certain power level tend to look alike, where samurai are more variable in the paths they choose. Might it be that there's just a more obvious 'best path' for magicians, in terms of what maximizes their power, where the choices of weapons and 'ware are more 'equal-but-different', varying more by what circumstances they're best in?

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 05:26 PM

QUOTE

It's all fair to say that he's run by a min-maxxer, but a concealing spirit and the invisibility spell are about as much stealth as anyone needs.

Of course he has those, but as it's a teamwork style game the sammie benefits as well, meaning with his stealth skill he comes out ahead.

QUOTE

Failing that astrally projecting can let you scout stealthily.

Hence my comments above about scouting until you hit a ward. The mage can't scout astrally past that ward without alerting someone. The sammie can walk right through it.

QUOTE

Spirits can soak-up more damage than platet factories, they're pretty-much immune to most attacks and they can just be re-summoned.

Which is why the opposition will frequently have access to them as well, leaving spirits to fight one another. Until you hit force 6 or more (5 in a low-powered setting), spirits aren't really all that resilient against challenging opposition. Bullets tear right through 10 points of immunity, and since the DV isn't actually lowered, anything that does bypass a spirit's immunity is likely to seriously hurt or totally disrupt the spirit.

Re-summoning a high force involves risking drain in combat. Launching another grenade involves marking off a chunk of ammunition.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 22 2006, 07:15 PM

I believe this falls into the category I suggested above that the sammie is happy with his magical backup, so why would he complain? Your game format sees the mage's advantages cancelled by other mages (they don't seem overpowered if they're pitted against someone osing the same tools as them), so everything is peachy. Yes?

No, because the imbalances still exist. Lets say that the party are missing their mage and they come up against a magical enemy, or the party face an enemy with no magical backup. Then, the overpowering nature comes into effect.

In-fact, overpowering magical threats should be more common than they are. Lets say the enemy has a powerful spirit (force 9), that the sammie just can't nail (11 dice to dodge, 18 points of hardened armor). Either the mage takes it out, or the party are wiped-out.

Seem an unfair encounter? The problem is that practically any starting mage can summon a force 9 spirit if they're willing to spend a bit of edge and accept a bit of physical drain. If they can't get a force 9, they can probably get a force 7 or 8 one which is still enough to pose a serious threat to a physical group. The sammie can't just spend edge in response and hope that the spirit goes away, it's a big honking pile of ass-whupping on a plate. A mage can banish the spirit (perhaps not the first choice as that probably wants edge and risks physical drain too), damage the spirit with combat spells, tie it up with a watcher pack and his own spirits, go into astral combat with it, or maybe even summon his own uber-spirit in response.

Once it becomes apparent that it is possible to do this, doesn't it become a preferable option to death if your gang are being wiped-out by a powerful group of runners? You see, if the mage doesn't summon an ultra-powerful spirit when they're facing death then you may technically be under-playing the opponents.

As I said, the imabalnces do exist. Mages can get by trying to avoid serious drain up until the end, preferring a bullet in the head to summoning something big and posing a difficult threat to a sammie-heavy squad, but in the end one of them might actually develop a survival instinct. I've seen things like this actually happen when someone comes in and guest-NPCs a character too, playing them far more effectively than the GM normally would have.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 07:28 PM

QUOTE

No, because the imbalances still exist. Lets say that the party are missing their mage and they come up against a magical enemy, or the party face an enemy with no magical backup. Then, the overpowering nature comes into effect.

Which is why it's up to the GM to develop fun encounters. If the opposition has no armor, the streetsam will destroy them. If they have no melee combat skills, the melee physad will own them. If they have no computer skills the hacker can destroy their lives through electronic manipulation.

And of course there's the fact (or at least my opinion) that an encounter which is unbalanced, even massively unbalanced, is not necessarily a bad thing when done in moderation. The PCs need to know sometimes that they're not on the bottom of the barrel, but neither are they the cream that rose to the top. Unbalanced encounters generally demonstrate that fairly easily.

QUOTE

The problem is that practically any starting mage can summon a force 9 spirit if they're willing to spend a bit of edge and accept a bit of physical drain.

It isn't about which NPCs can do what. It's about what sort of games are fun for the players. GMs, with or without spirits, can throw whatever extreme power levels of opposition they like against the players. Those spirits could just as easily be high armor vehicles or drones, troops in hardened armor, unhittable because of massive stealth and reaction mundanes.

QUOTE

As I said, the imabalnces do exist.

Obviously they do, or there wouldn't be umpteen threads about how overpowered magic is. But most perceived imbalances can be fixed by simply using the rules as written, since most people who come here with complaints aren't doing that. A large portion of the remaining imbalances can be fixed by having a group willing to fix them, or willing to forego absolute power in exchange for fun. The rest can mostly be fixed with GM foresight.

I'll just say again, I've never had problems with overpowered magic in my group, either when I'm running or someone else. The mage knows he couldn't survive long in the shadows without the hacker, rigger, or sammie. The sammie knows that the mage, hacker, and rigger increases his lifespan. The hacker and rigger know that they need each other and the mage and sammie.

Heck, the only time we almost had a TPK was when the opposition had no magical support whatsoever. Grenades go a long way towards showing people that they aren't as beefy as they think they are.

Again, I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist for some people. It just hasn't bothered my group, despite being filled with minmaxers that like to have as much time in the spotlight as possible.

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Do you have a Top Ten list of overlooked rules that you think contribute to this?

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 07:45 PM

No top ten list, but just from what I can think of offhand (in no particular order):

1) Invisibility is not complete stealth, and there are several cheap (or even free) counters to it that every business should know and use.

2) Spirit armor is not bypassed only by the weapon's damage value, but by the DV modified by successes.

3) Mind Reading is going to be noticed. You might not be able to stop them if you can't move away, but you can certainly remember them for later if you have an idea of who is doing it.

4) Mind Control is horribly powerful. Used on NPCs it can sway almost any situation. Used on PCs it can quickly and easily result in everyone burning edge to avoid a TPK. This isn't something that people miss, but is something that should be kept in mind when starting a campaign.

5) You can't have more successes than the force of the spell. This doesn't mean net successes, but flat successes.

6) What's good for the goose is good for the gander.* The opposition has magic as well, and unless you're incredibly creative they know all the same tricks.

7) What constitutes a service can be a very small thing. Just saying "protect me" isn't enough if you want it to cover you with concealment, materialize when you're attacked, and use it's gaurd power to prevent accidents.

Getting a spirit into combat takes time. It's a complex action to summon it. Then you take a simple action to command it. Then it takes a complex action to materialize (probably losing any IPs it still had left). Then it appears and starts to act. Depending on the combat the fight might be long over when that last action comes around.

9) Wards can be bypassed, but if you don't see it or don't shut off spells and foci before going through it someone will know you're there. a great setup involves multilayered wards. One ward around the perimeter of your area (i.e. around your whole block if your company owns it all) will stop all astral scouting of your building, even by curisoty seekers. Another ward on the building itself stops the real threats, or alerts the mage if the intruder gets inside and does like many will do, forgetting to reevaluate the situation astrally. I've seen incredibly experienced players just stop astral activity once they've passed the ward.

10) Security forces know that magic exists. They know that people can turn invisible and silent. They know that spirits can be summoned and can hide people. They know that if a caster can see you he can nuke you. All this needs to be kept in mind when designing a challenge for a group. Huge amounts of cakewalks wouldn't be cakewalks if the mage were considered more during the GM's planning stages.

11) Change things on the fly if you have to. If you've designed an excellent run and it's all about to fall apart because you forgot to think of a counter for mind control, don't let it. Just because you didn't think of it doesn't mean that the security people wouldn't have. If it logically would be in place, put it in place whether you thought of it the Wednesday night when you were writing the run or halfway through Friday's session when the caster said "I wanna mind control him."

Ok, so maybe that's a top 11. I didn't realize there would be so many until I started writing. And I've probably missed quite a few.

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 07:51 PM

Looks like a good list. Probably worth bookmarking

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 22 2006, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Getting a spirit into combat takes time. It's a complex action to summon it. Then you take a simple action to command it. Then it takes a complex action to materialize (probably losing any IPs it still had left). Then it appears and starts to act. Depending on the combat the fight might be long over when that last action comes around.

9) Wards can be bypassed, but if you don't see it or don't shut off spells and foci before going through it someone will know you're there. a great setup involves multilayered wards. One ward around the perimeter of your area (i.e. around your whole block if your company owns it all) will stop all astral scouting of your building, even by curisoty seekers. Another ward on the building itself stops the real threats, or alerts the mage if the intruder gets inside and does like many will do, forgetting to reevaluate the situation astrally. I've seen incredibly experienced players just stop astral activity once they've passed the ward.

10) Security forces know that magic exists. They know that people can turn invisible and silent. They know that spirits can be summoned and can hide people. They know that if a caster can see you he can nuke you. All this needs to be kept in mind when designing a challenge for a group. Huge amounts of cakewalks wouldn't be cakewalks if the mage were considered more during the GM's planning stages.

11) Change things on the fly if you have to. If you've designed an excellent run and it's all about to fall apart because you forgot to think of a counter for mind control, don't let it. Just because you didn't think of it doesn't mean that the security people wouldn't have. If it logically would be in place, put it in place whether you thought of it the Wednesday night when you were writing the run or halfway through Friday's session when the caster said "I wanna mind control him."

Ok, so maybe that's a top 11. I didn't realize there would be so many until I started writing. And I've probably missed quite a few.

That's quite a list. I really like it. I think all potential GM's should keep those things in mind.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 08:05 PM

One thing I've mentioned in the past about invisibility is that there is a free and unobtrusive method of working around it: closed doors. If you alarm those doors with something that can't be disarmed at the door itself (such as central control over your wired network) then you've forced the invisible character to rely on someone else (in this case a hacker, but other options are available).

To protect the really important doors on the shift where workers aren't using it, you have your gaurd sit on a chair directly in front of it (still alarmed as before).

There are ways around these things, but it forces mages to think beyond a simple "levitate + invisibility = I rule."

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 08:18 PM

The door doesn't even have to be alarmed...just locked in some way that requires you to be visible to open it Retina scanner, facial regonition, etc.

Really secure areas should have an airlock entrance, with appropriate scanners to verify that there is, in fact, only one person present in the room - to keep invisible intruders from tailing authorized personnel through doors. A thermo scanner would be good here. Also, a pressure plate in the floor to judge weight, and a chem-sniffer to judge how many people are breathing in the room. Or a watcher spirit: "If an astral form enters this room, materialize HERE and tell the guard." In the event of an alert, lock both doors and flood the room with gas.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 22 2006, 08:26 PM

You don't even have to be that secure of a facility to have an "airlock" style door. Darkrooms sometimes use these rotary doors that consist of a C-shaped 3/4 cylinder upright on a round base. The person steps inside, and spins the cylinder around 180 degrees to step out on the other side. Light never gets through. You could make them wireless-opaque, put locks on them (so they can be stuck closed, becoming a trap), and put pressure sensors, ultrasound, and/or cyberware scanners (which work using millimeter-wave radar, and will pick up the non-cyber parts of a person's body, too) on the inside to make life hard for anyone going through. These doors arguably take up less space than a standard swinging door in terms of clear floorspace required, and if it's not a "constant flow" traffic zone, they shouldn't cause any major slowdowns unless they get swarmed (like, say, someone sets off the fire alarm, in which case the emergency exits would open anyway).

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 08:28 PM

The facility I work in uses badges for all personnel. All entryways have revolving doors with badge readers. They only stay mobile for long enough to get one person through. Supposedly (I've never rsiked it) you can actually get caught in the door if you're too slow, and have to reswipe.

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 08:29 PM

Hmm. Yeah. I was thinking of secure areas only because of the inconvenience factor.

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 08:30 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

I assume they're smaller than a 'typical' revolving door, so it's not possible for two people to crowd into the same section?

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 22 2006, 08:36 PM

QUOTE (Nim)

Hmm. Yeah. I was thinking of secure areas only because of the inconvenience factor.

If there's something in it worth hiring shadowrunners to steal (that is, your game involves breaking into it to steal something), it's worth a little inconvenience coming into or going out of the lab in the name of security.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 08:50 PM

QUOTE (Nim)

QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jun 22 2006, 03:28 PM)

I assume they're smaller than a 'typical' revolving door, so it's not possible for two people to crowd into the same section?

Yeah. You could probably do it if one person rode on someone else's shoulders, but they're small enough that a really overweight person might have problems getting through without having to swipe twice. I don't know what kind of system it has, but it could easily be put on a timer requiring anyone not working that shift to get a gaurd to buzz them through, helping to avoid the "swipe his badge" problem.

In SR it would also help to avoid the "swipe his badge, torture him for his passcode, and use retinal modification to mimic his eyebal" problem.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 22 2006, 10:10 PM

@James McMurray: The fact that a GM can balance things is no excuse for poor game design.

If you say that sending a force 9 spirit at them is like sending milspec vehicles at the party, then consider that any of the shaman sample characters could summon a force 9 spirit given use of their edge. The sheer fact that the comparisson is being made is indicative that magic is too powerful, and the fact that a completely normal street-level character can summon one means that it's not as unreasonable as fighting opponents with milspec gear.

I personally have not seen anybody getting those rules wrong. Many of the points are fine and I completely agree with them, I have a few counter-points however:

1: Invisibility does go a long way, however, particularly when it's backed up by the concealment critter power and a bit of stealth.
4: PCs go around in a group and have spell defense from the mage, enemies don't nessecarily have such a luxury.
6: This is exactly what I meant when I gave my 'shaman summons a high force spirit' example. Once the PC mage summons a big spirit, either it's fair game for the enemies to do it (making the sammy useless) or the PC mage keeps doing it and thrashing the opposition (making the sammy useless). The same goes for using mind control on the party and similar, reacting to magic with enemy magic just makes the PC mage more important and the rest of the party unnessecary.
9: A watcher spirit can warn you if you're about to go through a ward and not percieving.

All of those security measures sound great... Closing doors? Who'd have thought of that? [/tongue=cheek] Anyhow, I wasn't saying that mages could do anything, only that sammies do tend to be made redundant by them (or that often you'd be better-off with a second mage rather than a sammie). Once you start adding hacking and bypassing skills then you start ending-up with a hacker or covert ops rather than a sammie, which I didn't think mages were completely ready to take-over the position of just yet (maybe once the magic book comes out).

Posted by: Nim Jun 22 2006, 10:39 PM

Let's see. Other security tactics against magical threats:

* The best, cheapest defense against a spellcaster is to be out of LOS. The real reason for your security guards to have ultrasound goggles isn't to spot the invisible mage; it's so they can still shoot the runners after they toss their cans of hot smoke.

* Drones drones drones. And automated defenses. Yes, they can be targetted with indirect combat spells, but those are a lot less efficient.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 22 2006, 11:34 PM

QUOTE (Nim)

Both of these are fantastic points, which I try to make use of in corporate settings. Especially drones.

Y'know, thinking about it, it's actually kinda funny. In the "omg mages pwn sammies" argument, no one ever brings up drones, or riggers. Riggers can eat mages alive. That 4 Threshold to affect a drone is significant. But the sammie? A well-placed grenade. So I guess it's sort of a paper-rock-scissors thing. Mages can pwn sammies, sammies can pwn riggers, riggers can pwn mages.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 22 2006, 11:52 PM

I can just see it.

"What? A mage? I can take him. I'm just going to hide in this Trashcan, and get my drones to frag his ass."

*after several minutes of fighting later*

"Ha! Fragged him!"

*trash can opens and grenade falls in*

"Gah!"

*trashcan closes. Boom*

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 22 2006, 11:57 PM

Bahaha!

Posted by: Dr. Dodge Jun 23 2006, 12:08 AM

i think it's important to note that mages usually suck on defense, so when those force 9 spirits are running around, they may have a better chance at damaging it, but they also will suffer the most being hit by it. but hey this argument has been going on forever in every edition. if it seems like such a huge deal, there's always CP 2020.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 23 2006, 12:11 AM

If the mage wants to keep counterspelling up on his teammates, he needs LOS to them, right?

You know what also works real well with LOS? Hand grenades

Posted by: Lilt Jun 23 2006, 12:31 AM

Riggers owning mages? Sortof, I think some people calling this are remembering holdovers from 3rd edition too.

If the rigger's out on the job (in an armored van or trash can) then the mage can search for him using a watcher then send a spirit to chow on the rigger's meatbod. If the rigger's sitting back behind a ward then there may be more problems, but wards aren't completely unbreakable. The fact that the mage who set-up the ward will know about it merely means that you can't take the rigger out too soon.

Mages are also not completely incapable of taking-out drones. The easiest way to take drones out is probably with elemental-attack wielding spirits. Elemental attacks arent's spells so the high OR has no effect. Using an electricity attack, a force 6 air spirit has a good chance of taking-out a steel lynx for a few rounds with one attack, and probably will do if the drone is unaware of the attack (see below on concealment). Using fire or cold damage you probably have a better chance of destroying the drones. A force 5 air spirit does on-average over 5 damage to a steel lynx with a fire or cold attack (13 dice attack, 4 successes being harsh, 3 dice dodge, 1 success, 3 net = DV 8, 4 body + half of 9 armor give 8 dice to resist, 3 successes being generous, modified 5 damage), so with average rolls the steel lynx is disabled in 2 shots.

Concealment is enough to make it very unlikely that drones will be able to detect a metahuman. A force 3 spirit using concealment, combined with the fact that you're a metahuman so the drone is on -3 dice, is enough that a steel lynx is on 0 dice to detect you (all it takes is a tiny bit of stealth). If you make that a force 6 spirit then even a really perceptive rigger (perception 6) has a pool to detect you of 0.

@Shrike30: Hand-grenades have a ballistic arc though, so there may be problems if you're trying to use them in areas with low ceilings.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 12:57 AM

QUOTE

The fact that a GM can balance things is no excuse for poor game design.

True, but a game expecting GMs to have a say in how their world works is not poor game design. If the group wants high powered spirits flying around everywhere they can have it. If they don't, it's easy to avoid.

It doesn't matter what the rules are, past a certain level of complexity (which SR has passed) utter balance becomes impossible. As more rules (via splatbooks) are added to a system, that fragile balance begins to fall even further to the side of the road. Thus it will always fall on a GM's shoulders to ensure that his group is challenged most of the time, overpowered some of the time, and overpowering some of the time (at least that's my preferred mix).

QUOTE

I personally have not seen anybody getting those rules wrong.

Scroll a few pages and open any thread that looks remotely like "magic is too powerful."

QUOTE

Invisibility does go a long way, however, particularly when it's backed up by the concealment critter power and a bit of stealth.

Neither of which will get you undetected through a closed door.

QUOTE

PCs go around in a group and have spell defense from the mage, enemies don't nessecarily have such a luxury.

True. If you want a group of enemies to be a cakewalk for your mage, give them no defenses against magic. If you want a challenge, give them some defenses. Easy, ain't it?

QUOTE

This is exactly what I meant when I gave my 'shaman summons a high force spirit' example. Once the PC mage summons a big spirit, either it's fair game for the enemies to do it (making the sammy useless) or the PC mage keeps doing it and thrashing the opposition (making the sammy useless). The same goes for using mind control on the party and similar, reacting to magic with enemy magic just makes the PC mage more important and the rest of the party unnessecary.

Ummm... Yeah. That's what I said.

QUOTE

A watcher spirit can warn you if you're about to go through a ward and not percieving.

True, but relying on something with a 1 logic, 1 intuition, and 0 perception skill for your astral defense is begging for trouble. You might get warned of the ward, or it might get instantly annihilated by the roving spirit on patrol. Remember, that watcher is dumber and less perceptive then a devil rat.

QUOTE

All of those security measures sound great... Closing doors? Who'd have thought of that? [/tongue=cheek]

I've seen quite a few people say something along the lines of "invisible levitating mages are ruining my game." Sometimes Concealment is factored in as well, sometimes not.

QUOTE

Once you start adding hacking and bypassing skills then you start ending-up with a hacker or covert ops rather than a sammie, which I didn't think mages were completely ready to take-over the position of just yet (maybe once the magic book comes out).

A mage can actually make a pretty good hacker if he's willing to suffer a little bit in the magic department. A sammie can branch out into any other area (except magic) and be really good at it.

Funny story (or not, depending on your sense of humor). My group once had an arena battle where everyone made characters with some pretty advanced build rules. The winner was a cybered gunman. The rest of the characters (including the supposedly powerful mage) were waffle stomped into oblivion. This was done in a group full of experienced SR minmaxers. The cyberguy in question was not built specifically to take down any other character type.

Yeah, I know that example doesn't prove any general rules. It's not meant to. It's just an anecdote on how what people think is powerful usually isn't as bad as they thought.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 23 2006, 02:10 AM

I may not have seen those errors as I've only recently returned from a gap on the boards. I've only seen stuff in the games I ran a few months back where I was pretty careful with the rules.

High infiltration skills won't get you undetected through a closed door either, so I don't see why invisibility and concealment should.

It's not that easy, giving them magical defenses means having a mage. Mages have big implications in that they can often summon spirits (why not force 9 ones?) ETC. Also, is it realistic that every encounter have a mage sitting around, or perhaps just some aspected guy with counterspelling 5, with every group of enemies if you don't want it to become a cakewalk. Sooner or later, it gets unrealistic. You may be OK with those levels of unrealism in your game for the sake of balance, but not everyone is.

I didn't say relying on watchers for astral defense, i said having them tell you when you're about to walk into an astral barrier. Really, unless your DM is the sort who asks for a roll to notice a brick wall then I think it's a non-issue. If it's destroyed by a patrol then you're informed of the patrol, which is also important so that's cool.

'Sammie' may well mix with other archetypes well, I never disputed that, but the problem is that once they do that they're no longer sammies. A certain amount of combat ability is to be expecteed of any runner, so is a hacker with a smartlink really a hacker/sammie?

The problem being raised here is that sammies, people dedicating their bodies to combat advancement through cybertechnology, are out-done. The complaint is that just advancing combat ability through cybertechnology has no chance to shine, to which the suggestion of changing character concept to include hackine and other tasks isn't really an answer.

Arena? Waffle-stomped? Interesting. I'm not overly surprised though. Who survives an arena has never been a measure of who has the most powerful character, it's a measure of who is able to seem least threatening. If kill count is an issue then it's also a matter of who looks the most squishy. Mages are better in 1-on-1 or where they can pick their fights by taking advantage of astral scouting and similar, perhaps even engaging by hiding away somewhere and summoning spirits from the astral.

Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 23 2006, 02:11 AM

'Waffle stomp?'
Is that a tactic or a general term?

Posted by: Jaid Jun 23 2006, 02:22 AM

QUOTE (Lilt)

eh, well if you're talking about unimproved drones sure.

but an improved version of a drone could be throwing at least 7 dice on a perception test (potentially more if you can upgrade sensor rating), and you can have multiple drones sharing information so that they can get teamwork bonus don't forget. and considering how cheap drones are now, there may very well be a lot of drones...

and the drone swarm is at least resistant to the elemental attacks, if only because they are single target attacks =P

also, i would say that if the spirit starts doing things to draw attention to itself (like shooting flames powerful enough to destroy a steel lynx) it's probably going to give a bonus to the drones' perception check. and also remember, those drones can be packing an ares alpha relatively cheap... and if you're talking about too little room to get a good arc on the grenade, you're also looking at small enough room for the explosion to do some extra damage (and when it's starting at 13 for a regular hit...

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 02:44 AM

QUOTE

Concealment is enough to make it very unlikely that drones will be able to detect a metahuman. A force 3 spirit using concealment, combined with the fact that you're a metahuman so the drone is on -3 dice, is enough that a steel lynx is on 0 dice to detect you (all it takes is a tiny bit of stealth).

Technically, Concealment doesn't affect drones that are acting autonomously: it gives a penalty to Perception tests. Drones don't make Perception tests, they make Sensor tests (Sensors + Clearsight).

The -3 penalty for a drone to notice a metahuman is fairly silly in a setting where drones are frequently used for perimeter security. Expect Arsenal to include a drone upgrade ("Mitsuhama Bioform Recognition Protocol, Mk II") that removes that penalty. Given that the justification for it is that drones' sensors are programmed to look for vehicles, not people, expanding that programming with additional target profiles is an obvious add-on.

QUOTE

If the rigger's out on the job (in an armored van or trash can) then the mage can search for him using a watcher then send a spirit to chow on the rigger's meatbod. If the rigger's sitting back behind a ward then there may be more problems, but wards aren't completely unbreakable.

Nope, sorry: "Search: {...} The critter must have seen what it is searching for before; spirits may search out anything that their summoner provides them with a mental image of." (SR4 p.290) Unless the mage happens to know what the rigger looks like, Search is utterly useless. And if the mage DOES somehow have a clear mental image of the rigger, the Search will STILL take a minimum of 10 minutes. That's 200 combat turns. This isn't sounding like a practical tactic if there's already a drone shooting at you.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 02:46 AM

QUOTE

Also, is it realistic that every encounter have a mage sitting around, or perhaps just some aspected guy with counterspelling 5, with every group of enemies if you don't want it to become a cakewalk. Sooner or later, it gets unrealistic. You may be OK with those levels of unrealism in your game for the sake of balance, but not everyone is.

Magical defenses doesn't necessary mean a mage on gaurd. A single mage can bind several spirits and erect several wards, then wait around on call. If a spirit alerts him or a ward gets penetrated he knows immediately and can either jaunt there near instantaneously and be astral, or send some spirits ahead while he gets there by more mundane means (including a spirit's movement power to get him there really fast.

Also, having magical defenses on almost every run is not unrealistic. Supposedly spellcasters are rare. That means that a group with a spellcasters will be more likely to take jobs that require a spellcaster. If the job doesn't need a mage, why are you paying to hire one?

QUOTE

I didn't say relying on watchers for astral defense, i said having them tell you when you're about to walk into an astral barrier. Really, unless your DM is the sort who asks for a roll to notice a brick wall then I think it's a non-issue. If it's destroyed by a patrol then you're informed of the patrol, which is also important so that's cool.

My statement was that people tend to forget to start their own astral scouting once they're inside the wards. You said to have a watcher. I assumed you meant have a watcher to replace their astral scouting, since otherwise (I assumed) you would have said they should continue their astral viewing. Sorry for the confusion.

QUOTE

A certain amount of combat ability is to be expecteed of any runner, so is a hacker with a smartlink really a hacker/sammie?

No. I never said he was. A hacker with high gun and melee skills, a smartlink, platelet factories, and good armor / body is a hacker/sammie. I'm probably missing a few things for him to have, but this isn't intended as a hacker/sammie build guide, merely an example that they can exist.

QUOTE

The complaint is that just advancing combat ability through cybertechnology has no chance to shine, to which the suggestion of changing character concept to include hackine and other tasks isn't really an answer.

I didn't say to change character concepts. One issue raised was how versatile mages can be. One response to that was that other characters can be versatile as well. If you don't want to be, that's cool. Not every character should be a jack of all trades, or even a jack of two trades.

QUOTE

Who survives an arena has never been a measure of who has the most powerful character, it's a measure of who is able to seem least threatening. If kill count is an issue then it's also a matter of who looks the most squishy. Mages are better in 1-on-1 or where they can pick their fights by taking advantage of astral scouting and similar, perhaps even engaging by hiding away somewhere and summoning spirits from the astral.

I'm glad you know how our arenas go.

Trust me, nobody was ignored because they seemed less threatening, and nobody ignored their characters' abilties (like astral scouting, hiding, or spirit summoning). Interestingly enough one character was pretty much undetectable by all senses but was killed thanks to a closed door.

QUOTE

If the rigger's out on the job (in an armored van or trash can) then the mage can search for him using a watcher then send a spirit to chow on the rigger's meatbod.

Jaid made some good points. I'll just add that a rigger can increase the signal ratings on his drones or daisy chain them. He could theoretically be a city away while his drones do their job. That's a bit excessive, but several kilometers isn't.

Check a watcher's stats. They are almost incapable of actually finding someone. A regular spirit might, but assuming one kilometer distance and force 10 he's rolling 20 dice needing 5 successes. He'll probably make it, but it'll take 10 minutes, which is much longer than any combat is going to last. If there's more distance and/or a ward involved it could take even longer.

Finally, the searcher has to either have seen the target before or been given a clear mental image by the summoner. How on earth does your mage do that? Even if there are only 15 riggers in the entire world and he knows them all by sight he'd have to pick one and hope to be right.

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 02:50 AM

QUOTE (Lilt)

Mages are better in 1-on-1 or where they can pick their fights by taking advantage of astral scouting and similar, perhaps even engaging by hiding away somewhere and summoning spirits from the astral.

Mages are better when they get to attack an unaware target from a position of strength, having chosen the ground and take the opportunity to engage from a distance?

Well, gee. Who isn't? Given the same opportunity, a street sam could put a bullet through the mage's head from a half-klick away.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 02:57 AM

I'd also like to revisit the idea that there's no such thing as perfect balance in a complex system. Currently the mage is seemingly on top of the heap in several different aspects. However, if you attempt to balance them without being Ugulu, Great God of Games all you'll do is bump someone else to the top of the heap (probably sammies or riggers if it's a combat-centric game).

The only way to have actual balance in a complex system is to have a group of people dedicated to that balance and willing to police itself.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 23 2006, 12:17 PM

@Jaid: An upgraded drone can roll one more die by default? Nice, I guess I'll have to advise using a force 4 spirit.

Using teamwork, a bunch of drones working together, each rolling 0 dice with each success adding to the leader's pool, is going to result in a total pool of 0 dice for the primary drone. GO TEAMWORK!

My point about not having an arc for grenades was intended as separate, but if the drones are happy to lob grenades around then a spirit would happily sit on one of the drones.

A force 5 air spirit rolls 8 dice to dodge. A steel lynx rolls 6 dice to hit, and they need 5 successes to do enough damage to get past immunity (with an AR or LMG). If they use a narrow burst then they'll probably miss, if they use a wide burst then they still need lots of successes to get past the immunity.

@Nim: The sensor test is a perception test by default, perception is just subbed for pilot rating (the stat which always subs for attributes) in the case of drones. The fact that drones have been poor at deteting metahumans has been around since previous editions, so I don't see why they'd magically fix it now (they had signature 6 in 3rd edition, and IIRC that fact was added in a supplement).

The remenants of the rigger's aura are bound to be on the drones. It may require somethign better than a watcher, but most spirits have assensing so sending them out searching with an image of the rigger's aura should suffice. Still, if the rigger can be hidden undetectably in a trash can then I don't see why the mage can't be, and spirits probably have less troubble checking inside trash cans (fly through them) than drones (no current drones have arms). Of-course the drones could just blow-up every trash can around, but that's likely to prove unpopular with lone-star.

Of-course using the search power may not be feasable given time constraints, but it's not nessecary for the mage to kill the drones.

As for attacking from a position of strength ETC, the fact that mages have abilities which allow them to do this rather easily can't be ignored. The sammie may be able to put a bullet through the mage's head from half a click away, but the mage can sit in the astral with his meat bod on the other side of the world and summon spirits to kill the sammie.

@James McMurray: It's true that mages can protect multiple assets, but we were talking about mooks having spell defense against mind control. That's not possible without a mage present.

Runs requiring a mage are rare enough that people are paying for the fact that a mage is on the team? Woot, now the mage is asking for his own premium and getting more money than the rest of the team. Otherwise, they just logically take the normal runs which are cake-walks for the mage.

Perhaps that level of modification does make a hacker/sammie, but it's still not a sammie. Lets say the new guy has asked to play a sammie and you give him a character who can hack into fort knox. He'd complain that it wasn't what he asked for, yes? Thus it's not a sammie. As an aside, with improved ability for 0.25/rank on technical skills I wouldn't be surprised if sammie/hackers they were out-shone by adept/hackers. Hackers only really need a 0.2 essence datajack in terms of cyberware, so it's not completely incompatible with being an adept.

Changing character concepts is essentially what's happening if you're adding hacking skills. I cite my 'new guy asks for a character' example above. Sure, you can explain to him that pure sammies are weak, but the fact remains that if you give him what he asks for (a sammie) then his character can expect to be out-shone by the adept and other characters.

I didn't say you needed to be ignored in an arena, you only need to seem less of a threat than others. You just need to be shot at second rather than first.

The rigger is a city away? The mage can just as easily operate from a city away, thus the drones and spirits have a battle-royale and both sides are safely tucked-away in neighbouring cities.

If the mage tries the assensing trick to find the rigger's aura, then a search for that aura on drones other than those fighting will probably reveal the nearest drone in the daisy-chain to also have his aura. From there the mage can just destroy a daisy-chain drone or try and search further back up the line to find the rigger's meatbod. The rigger doesn't have any similar way to find the magician's meatbod, however.

Well, to argue that balance is impossible is a bit premature. I don't think they've even tried balancing it. What mages are able to do is dictated more by the shadowrun background than balance. The problem is that it can be perfectly balanced until you look at the full range of abilities open to the mage. Astral perception/projection/assensing/spirits ETC. Mages get so much of that for only 15BP that it's almost unbelieveable, but if it were more expencive then mages who don't know to use the full array of abilities would be out of pocket. IE: I think it is fairly balanced, but only if the mage doesn't know what they're doing.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 12:54 PM

QUOTE

The remenants of the rigger's aura are bound to be on the drones.

Huh? MAges leave astral signatures. Nobody else does.

QUOTE

It's true that mages can protect multiple assets, but we were talking about mooks having spell defense against mind control. That's not possible without a mage present.

Which is why I said if you want the opposition to be a cakewalk, don't give them magical backup. If you don't want it, then do.

QUOTE

Runs requiring a mage are rare enough that people are paying for the fact that a mage is on the team? Woot, now the mage is asking for his own premium and getting more money than the rest of the team. Otherwise, they just logically take the normal runs which are cake-walks for the mage.

If you want what is to me an unrealistic world, that's cool.

QUOTE

concepts is essentially what's happening if you're adding hacking skills.

What part about "I'm not saying you have to change character concepts" don't you understand? I said it's an option, not a necessity.

QUOTE

The mage can just as easily operate from a city away

The spirits can't find someone from a city away. The rigger can.

QUOTE

If the mage tries the assensing trick to find the rigger's aura, then a search for that aura on drones other than those fighting will probably reveal the nearest drone in the daisy-chain to also have his aura.

Again with "huh?"

QUOTE

Mages get so much of that for only 15BP that it's almost unbelieveable,

It's only 15 BP if you don't up your Magic Attribute or buy any skills. A 15BP mage isn't a mage, he's a mundane that is magical but can't do any magic.

QUOTE

Well, to argue that balance is impossible is a bit premature.

You are of course free to disagree. It's practically impossible to prove a negative of this sort, so it's all down to opinion. But I'll go with my experiences in many different game systems, all of which had balance issues (some bigger than others).

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Lilt @ Jun 23 2006, 07:17 AM)

The fact that drones have been poor at deteting metahumans has been around since previous editions, so I don't see why they'd magically fix it now (they had signature 6 in 3rd edition, and IIRC that fact was added in a supplement).

Still, if the rigger can be hidden undetectably in a trash can then I don't see why the mage can't be, and spirits probably have less troubble checking inside trash cans (fly through them) than drones (no current drones have arms). Of-course the drones could just blow-up every trash can around, but that's likely to prove unpopular with lone-star.

Well, you can't have it both ways. If the drone is making a sensor test against the target's signature, then it doesn't matter that the mage is hiding inside a trashcan. Signature is not primarily visual. On the other hand, if the drone is using a camera and image recognition (and thus would be foiled by a trash can), then the -3 penalty from having a low signature clearly makes no sense.

QUOTE

The remenants of the rigger's aura are bound to be on the drones. It may require somethign better than a watcher, but most spirits have assensing so sending them out searching with an image of the rigger's aura should suffice.

Can you give me a quote from the book that supports the idea that a mage could do this? You're not talking about Search, you're talking about Astral Tracking. And I would be very surprised if you found any support for astrally tracking a character who is incapable of being astrally active.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 23 2006, 02:43 PM

I think the soloution to this problem is obvious.

Forgoe availability restrictions on equipment and give a "Sammie" multiplier on nuyen of about 5x for people who make dedicated Street Samurai.

Sure, the mage is summoning Force 9 spirits, but the sammie is crammed to 0.01 Essense full of deltaware and is using military hardware. "Balance" restored.

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 03:13 PM

I agree with James that no system is perfectly balanced, and for any complex system, a lot of the balance comes from how the game is run, not just how the rules are written.

Now, that said, I think it's fair to say that some systems have more balance 'cooked in' than others do. And well-considered rules make the GM's job of maintaining balance much easier Sometimes, it's worth changing rules to accomplish this...

Though I disagree with Lilt's argument that SR4 mages totally overpower / render irrelevant gun-bunny characters, I do think there are some problems. Specifically, I'm not happy with how easy it now is to summon high-Force spirits. In canon up to this point (at least, in all of the games I've played in, and in the novels I've read) summoning a powerful spirit was always something done with a certain reluctance and only when the situation was fairly desperate, because it was a dangerous undertaking. The new mechanics don't bear that out. You can look at that as bad game balance, or just as rules not doing a good job of modeling the setting. Either way, I think there is room for improvement there

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 03:21 PM

My biggest gripe (most of the time) with the new way magic is handled is that magical healing can now fix physical drain. In many ways that makes casting and summoning at higher than your magic rating smarter than casting at lower. In other words, if you have magic 6 and cast fireball 6 you'll take stun damage, which you're stuck with unless you rest. If you instead cast fireball 7 you'll do a little more damage, take physical damage, and be able to heal the damage afterwards. In previous editions overcasting was dangerous, now it's common practice.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 23 2006, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

The remenants of the rigger's aura are bound to be on the drones.

Huh? Mages leave astral signatures. Nobody else does.

Read P182 under assensing:

QUOTE

Non-magical and non-living objects have
only gray, lackluster shadows rather than auras, but pick up impressions
from being in contact with living auras. Assensing can
read any impressions left behind on an object.

QUOTE

It's true that mages can protect multiple assets, but we were talking about mooks having spell defense against mind control. That's not possible without a mage present.

Which is why I said if you want the opposition to be a cakewalk, don't give them magical backup. If you don't want it, then do.

The whole point is that it's not possible to stop it from being a cake-walk without having mages everywhere providing spell defense. Having mages everywhere providing spell defense is unrealistic.

QUOTE

If you want what is to me an unrealistic world, that's cool.

You're the one who said that the groups were taking jobs that were paid to have a mage on them. That logically means that having a mage on the team means they're worth more money than another 4-5 man team. If you're going to use an excuse like that for there always meing a mage on teh opposition then be prepared to defend it. Perhaps my players are more cunning than yours, but if I used an excuse like that then they'd be all over me.

QUOTE

concepts is essentially what's happening if you're adding hacking skills.

What part about "I'm not saying you have to change character concepts" don't you understand? I said it's an option, not a necessity.

And I'm saying that it's not an option if people want pure sammies, which should be completely valid character types and are what this thread is about in the first place.

QUOTE

The mage can just as easily operate from a city away

The spirits can't find someone from a city away. The rigger can.

No, the spirits can find someone from a city away if they have a sample of their aura, which can probably be found on the drones.

The spirits just need to search for the drones with traces of the rigger's aura on them, which can't be far enough apart to avoid being found with the search power (given time). Lets say the drone has a signal rating 5 (fairly high) and is at maximum range, so 4km away from the main fight. That gives a threshold of 14, which a force 6 spirit will probably achieve after 3.5 intervals (35 minutes). The spirit can also go for the rigger directly with an image of his aura. If we're to say that the rigger was 100km away, then it'd take a force 6 spirit about 4 and a half hours to find him.

Meanwhile, the shaman leaves no physical way to locate him and track him from one town to the next. How does the rigger hope to track him?

QUOTE

Again with "huh?"

Assensing and aura identifying are just another one of the tools available to mages.

QUOTE

Mages get so much of that for only 15BP that it's almost unbelieveable,

It's only 15 BP if you don't up your Magic Attribute or buy any skills. A 15BP mage isn't a mage, he's a mundane that is magical but can't do any magic.

No, he can astrally percieve (-2 for distraction but it's better than many other vision modes), astrally project for invisible scouting, and read auras (potentially very useful as shown above). That is a lot for 15BP, and it opens-up avenues to get so much more via conjuring and sorcery.

QUOTE

Well, to argue that balance is impossible is a bit premature.

Well I can't exactly defend it too much either. I can, however, pose the question of what would happen if they diverged too much from what is established in books ETC. If the possible answer is an outcry, then it's completely understandable that they were designing with a view to maintaining the established rather than balance.

Other points: I've still not seen anyone allow using healing spells to heal physical drain.

@Nim: Drones have electromagnetic footprints (they've got radar ETC functioning on them) and harder radar signatures (squishy flesh rather than hard metal and plastic). It's noteable that humans have the same signature modification as electronic vehicles, so that'd suggest that the harsh heat emissions of non-electronic vehicles are assumed to be the default.

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

@Nim: Drones have electromagnetic footprints (they've got radar ETC functioning on them) and harder radar signatures (squishy flesh rather than hard metal and plastic). It's noteable that humans have the same signature modification as electronic vehicles, so that'd suggest that the harsh heat emissions of non-electronic vehicles are assumed to be the default.

Yeah, I was thinking about this some more this morning.

If we assume that drone sensors are things like radar, detection of EM emissions, etc, then giving metahumans a low signature is perfectly reasonable. It /is/ a hell of a lot harder to pick up a human on radar than, say, a car. It's a logical distinction to make.

But it's entirely possible to design a sensor suite specifically to detect humans. It's a topic of current-day research, in fact, in the form of robots designed to locate victims in Urban Search and Rescue missions...collapsed buildings in an earthquake zone, etc. Some of those have already been deployed in real-world disasters. (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/retsina-31/www/Report/Final%20Report.pdf on the subject, just for the curious, as one example)

Even setting that aside, what about cameras? A character watching through a surveilance camera makes a standard Perception test to notice someone moving through the field of view, no penalty. A rigger piloting a drone (which presumably has cameras as part of its extensive sensor suite) loses 3 dice to do the same thing. This is silly.

Haven't decided yet what the best house-rule / optional drone upgrade would be to address that, however.

On the Concealment versus drone sensors issue, I originally threw that out there just for amusement value. Having thought about it a bit longer though, I'm not sure it doesn't make sense. There's a big table of penalties for Perception tests...visibility modifiers, etc etc. Using drone sensors as they currently exist, those modifiers don't apply. The drone's radar doesn't care how dark or foggy it is. One could reasonably argue that the penalty from Concealment falls into the same category - Perception modifiers, not Sensor modifiers.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jun 23 2006, 04:32 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

The remenants of the rigger's aura are bound to be on the drones.

Huh? Mages leave astral signatures. Nobody else does.

Read P182 under assensing:

QUOTE

You can detect astral signatures on objects, threshold of 3+.
Astral signatures are created by spells or magical effects.
Determining what caused effect caused the astral signature threshold 5+.
Assensing any emotional impression is threshold 5+.

Unless the rigger is awakened or plays cuddly with their anthropomorphic (or not) drone before sending it out, I fail to see this as a very feasible approach to locating the rigger directly.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 23 2006, 04:35 PM

QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 23 2006, 04:32 PM)

QUOTE (Lilt)

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

The remenants of the rigger's aura are bound to be on the drones.

Huh? Mages leave astral signatures. Nobody else does.

Read P182 under assensing:

QUOTE

I'm not talking about astral signatures or emotional impressions, I'm talking about identifying auras (threshold 2).

If the rigger uses the drone much (services it, repairs it, or possibly even made it) then I find them leaving their aura on the drones to be quite likely.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 23 2006, 05:07 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 23 2006, 04:32 PM)

QUOTE (Lilt)

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

The remenants of the rigger's aura are bound to be on the drones.

Huh? Mages leave astral signatures. Nobody else does.

Read P182 under assensing:

QUOTE

GM interpretation to me until the magic source book is out.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 23 2006, 05:13 PM

Just to clarify: I was not trying to turn this into another one of those mages vs samurais threads. Those have been done to death many times before. I was actually looking for suggestions:

How do I make scenarios where the sams shine?
How do I make life more challenging for the mages without making life harder for everyone else? (In the past this could easily be handled through background count, but there are no rules for this any more.)
Does anyone think the regenerating rules make it too easy for mages to kill to the tiger shifter, while being scary hard for everybody else?
Does anyone think the immunity rules make it too (comparitively speaking) easy for mages to kill the high force spirit, while being scary hard for everybody else?
Does anybody have suggested modifications to make it harder (though not impossible) for mages to summon those really high-force spirits? (This might eliminate the need to address the previous question.)

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 23 2006, 05:20 PM

admitedly my experince in SR4 is small so far, but I haven't had any issues with mage balance yet. I'm mean sure they are powerful, but so are grenades. And yeah sure spirits are powerful, but maybe I just run in a different way, but about the only people who seem to have spirits out doing the fighting while the summoner is in no threat land is the sec mages.

The team mage is with the team in the thick of things, so yeah that spirit of his is scary, but so far the opposition ignores it as much as possible and redoubles there efforts to drop the summoner, which usually gets rid of the spirit.

Now concealment I can kind of see as a problem since it is so much better than the stealth skill, I really don't have an issue yet with it but it you do. I'm make concealment a test dice equal to the spirits force and each hit removes 1 die from a perception test.

Also if you have an issue with real high force stuff make a house rule that you can throw spells and summon spirits to magix x 1.5 not x2. Which is where every other max attribute/skill works out to. Or for spirits I'd be willing to say they always use edge to resists summonin unless the summoner has spirit affinity.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 23 2006, 05:30 PM

Has anyone considered adding in mundane spirit hunting/ghost hunting tricks to be effective against spirits?

For instance, shotgun shells with rock salt?(You need to have the armorer skill for reloading, or to buy it from a talismonger) Charms to cushion damage? Charms and fetishes to attach to melee weapons?

In addition, do some research on exorcist activities from Ancient religions, and even modern ones, can give you some ideas. Put a few mechanics in, and you have weapons mundanes can use against spirits. Just make the weapons less effective than Weapon Foci and Spells, so the mages still have their starlight shine.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 23 2006, 05:34 PM

QUOTE (Apathy)

Just to clarify: I was not trying to turn this into another one of those mages vs samurais threads. Those have been done to death many times before. I was actually looking for suggestions:

How do I make scenarios where the sams shine?
How do I make life more challenging for the mages without making life harder for everyone else? (In the past this could easily be handled through background count, but there are no rules for this any more.)
Does anyone think the regenerating rules make it too easy for mages to kill to the tiger shifter, while being scary hard for everybody else?
Does anyone think the immunity rules make it too (comparitively speaking) easy for mages to kill the high force spirit, while being scary hard for everybody else?
Does anybody have suggested modifications to make it harder (though not impossible) for mages to summon those really high-force spirits? (This might eliminate the need to address the previous question.)

QUOTE

How do I make scenarios where the sams shine?

Principles to keep in mind here:

Samurai are far better at damaging mechanical constructs
Intimidation Situations, rarely does the mage look as intimidating as the Sam

QUOTE

How do I make life more challenging for the mages without making life harder for everyone else? (In the past this could easily be handled through background count, but there are no rules for this any more.)

Mages cannot affect what they cannot see
Astral Barriers do nothing to Sams

QUOTE

Does anyone think the immunity rules make it too (comparitively speaking) easy for mages to kill the high force spirit, while being scary hard for everybody else?

I think that it places a new premium on actually having some heavy fire support, sure stealth is the order of the day but being able to pull out the big guns is now an ability not to be overlooked.

QUOTE

Does anybody have suggested modifications to make it harder (though not impossible) for mages to summon those really high-force spirits? (This might eliminate the need to address the previous question.)

I wouldn't modify it at all, just perhaps change the way spirits respond to being summoned. High Force Spirits have edge, lots of it in fact, and they don't like to be summoned they can use it to resist the summoning contest. If the spirit throws edge dice in to it summongin contest pool not may mages are going to sucessfully conjure a force 8 spirit when the contest changes from Magic + Conjuring vs. Force to Magic + Conjuring vs. 2 x Force + reroll the sixes. Pick a spirit force level where you think it's appropriate for them to start strongly resisting summoning.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 23 2006, 05:43 PM

@X-Kalibur: Actually, an exact interpretation would say that anybody who touches the drone leaves their aura on it. That aura can then be read with assensing.

Sure, you can lend your drones to a drone petting zoo but I find it relatively unlikely that a drone will have many signatures on it other than its current owner. if there are a bunch of auras on the drones, you can look at all of them and see which ones are commonly shared.

@Apathy: The sammie isn't going to shine by virtue of being a sammie. He can shine by virtue of being that extra man there, who's able to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done. Sure, have it involve blowing the heads off some guards.

This isn't a strictly mage versus sammie problem, but if you do want to make things more difficult for the mage then have a street gang who tend to have developed the magic resistance quality or something.

@Shinobi Killfist: Completely valid points about going for the summoner of the spirit. Although not all security forces will have the conviction to go for an invisible enemy when somethign with a good attack skill is sending 5P blasts reduced by half armor at them, that's probably their best bet.

I don't quite agree with taking the nerf bat to concealment, however. What you're suggesting is effectiely making it 1/3rd as effective. Concealment is usually fine, equivalent to a boost to the character's infiltration skill equal to the spirit's force, and in-keeping with the power possible from other service options. It only becomes a big deal when you're dealing with enemies with low dice pools.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 23 2006, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (Shadowmeet)

I like that. Spirits don't seem to have any real weaknesses (Banishing, while unique to spirits, can be very ineffectual). Giving mundanes a fighting chance makes sense too. Spirits have been around for a while and, as is demonstrated every time our mages summons F6,F7,F8, etc., they should be able to do what ever they want with their power. It seems as if they should do more than keep Atzlan out of the Yucatan and keep the PCC out of the Mojave. Spirits have the power to waltz into enemy territory and tell them what's what.

Giving mundanes "exorcism" tools sound like it needs to be looked into

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 23 2006, 05:57 PM

If you're going to say that a drone Sensors test is the equivalent of a Perception test (and so affected by things like Conceal appropriately), then things like the Enhanced Vision mod (bonus dice for Perception checks) should be applicable. Networks of drones should be providing teamwork bonuses, or having each drone getting it's own Sensors test.

I am not inclined to say that Perception and Sensor are the same test, if modifiers like "is metahuman" exist.

Is Concealment a Mana or Physical power?

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 23 2006, 07:07 PM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

QUOTE (Shadowmeet @ Jun 23 2006, 12:30 PM)

I suppose you could say that Salt barriers act as weak wards. Salt might damage them. Smudgring(Burning sage, etc) could give spirits negatives to a dice pool due to being uncomfortable in an area.

And each of these things would be able to be done by mundanes, but not as well as solutions by awakened. In addition, they each have problems of their own that need investment, trust, etc.

For example:

"Yeah, I got this charm from Old Louie down on 57th. He swears if I wear it, I can hit any spirit that gets near me."

"Chummer, Old Louie has been selling those to every tourist that passes his way. Trust me. Try Chi-Chi. She knows her stuff, but there's a price."

Or

"Look, a spirit is on to us. I'll just smudge the area. He won't see us then."

"No, but when the fire alarm goes off, or security smells the smoke, we're fragged either way."

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Shadowmeet)

I'm not sure exactly how I'd implement it, but I like the IDEA behind it a lot. Definitely adds flavor.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 23 2006, 07:15 PM

QUOTE (Nim @ Jun 23 2006, 01:10 PM)

QUOTE (Shadowmeet @ Jun 23 2006, 02:07 PM)

I'm not sure exactly how I'd implement it, but I like the IDEA behind it a lot. Definitely adds flavor.

Lets just throw out a few things.

Smudging is a cleansing activity
Smudging provides a -2 dice pool modifier for everything that a spirit does while in the vicinity. However, it must be continually burned. The smoke dissapates and no longer bothers a spirit one turn after it stops burning.

Salt Shotgun shells -2DV, turns it Stun, +4AP, but penetrates a spirits immunity against weapons.

Those are random numbers, but ideas on how.

Edit: AP

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 07:21 PM

I think you mean +4 AP, probably?

Posted by: DireRadiant Jun 23 2006, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

Auras and Astral Signatures are two different things that can be perceived astrally.

Auras do not transfer. They are the fundamental astral view of an entity of an object when viewed astrally.

Astral signatures do transfer, since they are created by an awakened magical affect such as casting a spell or creating a ward.

You can track people by astral signatures they leave by doing things magically.

I am not sure how a non awakened rigger would create an astral signature that would apply to a drone.

I do agree if you've seen the drone before astrally and recognize it's aura when you see it again, but this is not much then different if a mundane with Electronic Warfare recognizes the drone from it's emission signature, or someone seeing the same drone again might recognize it.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

[QUOTE]Non-magical and non-living objects have
only gray, lackluster shadows rather than auras, but pick up impressions
from being in contact with living auras. Assensing can
read any impressions left behind on an object.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

You're absolutely right. Objects pick up impressions. Nowhere does it say they pick up duplicates of the toucher's aura. And of course, even if they did:

Mage: Joe Spirit! Go find this aura!
{several hours later}
Joe spirit: Boss! I found 3 vibrators and 16 empty beer cans in a Joyhouse. I found 4 steroes in an electronics store.

And those were just the things he touched that day with enough emotions to leave an impression. If your assertion that the impressions last forever is true, the spirit will never return, as he'll be tracing objects from throughout the rigger's life.

QUOTE

I do agree if you've seen the drone before astrally and recognize it's aura when you see it again,

Nope, you can recognize auras. Objects have "gray, lackluster shadows rather than auras."

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 23 2006, 08:56 PM

Three vibrators?! Please tell me this hypothetical rigger is a lesbian. Otherwise, I don't think I want to know.

In fact, I am quite sure I don't want to know.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 09:09 PM

What? A guy can't pleasure his joygirls? Sexist pig!

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 23 2006, 09:09 PM

QUOTE

QUOTE (Lilt)

QUOTE

Of course, you could always rule that the impression is made due to close, long term contact. So, a rigger who services his own drones, and looks at them like children would leave a major impression. However, if someone else in the team lovingly slaved over repairing it, or it went to a mechanic, it might get someone else. Or, if the rigger thought of his drones like a Street Sam thinks of his bullets, you'd be out of luck.

Also, from the text, I gather impressions would not allow you to identify the aura that touched it, so much as the emotions that surround it. Otherwise Lone star would catch any Street Sam who dropped his gun after a fire fight.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 23 2006, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

It seems that there are two different forms of teamwork in 4th edition, there's one under perception and there's one defined with the test types:

QUOTE

When an entire group of characters has a chance to notice something, the gamemaster can simplify matters by making a single Perception Test for the entire team, using the largest dice pool available + 1 per extra character (maximum +5). Such group Perception Tests should not be made when surprise is possible (see Surprise, p. 155).

QUOTE

Teamwork Tests
Sometimes characters may choose to work together on a
task, whether they are holding the door against a rampaging
paracritter or fixing a car. To determine success, pick one character
as the primary acting character. Each of the secondary
characters makes the appropriate test; each hit they score adds
+1 die the primary character’s dice pool. The primary character
than makes the test, and her results determine success.
If any of the assisting characters roll a critical glitch, raise
the threshold for the test by 1 (3 for Extended Tests).

I would suggest that #1 is not applicable for a number of reasons:

Surprise is possible
With 0 dice each, the entire group of characters does not have a chance of spotting it
That system is supposed to simplify things, not make things possible which were not before

If anyone cares about how it worked in 3rd edition, concealment worked on sensor tests just as it did on normal perception tests. I was probably guilty of calling it as a holdover when I first mentioned it, but I don't see why it shouldn't be applicable. A rigger piloting a drone actually rolls Perception, concealment is applied to any perception test, ergo it is applied. Saying it would apply to the rolls when a rigger makes it and not when a drone pilot makes it, as a physical power, is just a bit stupid.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 09:39 PM

QUOTE

Otherwise Lone star would catch any Street Sam who dropped his gun after a fire fight.

He doesn't even have to drop his gun, assuming he loaded his own ammo.

QUOTE

Saying it would apply to the rolls when a rigger makes it and not when a drone pilot makes it, as a physical power, is just a bit stupid.

Whether it's stupid or not is debatable. Whether the RAW says concealment applies or not isn't. Without a house rule concealment does not apply to sensor tests.

Out of curiosity, why are you complaining about the power of mages and then going out of your way to misinterpret rules in their favor? Assensing can't track touched objects. Concealment doesn't affect anything but perception tests. These are the rules. Changing them to favor mages is IMO silly.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 23 2006, 09:54 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

Otherwise Lone star would catch any Street Sam who dropped his gun after a fire fight.

He doesn't even have to drop his gun, assuming he loaded his own ammo.

QUOTE

Saying it would apply to the rolls when a rigger makes it and not when a drone pilot makes it, as a physical power, is just a bit stupid.

Although, I can say, I do like the idea of mages reading Aura impressions left on objects for some things.

"The knife is cold. There was no rage in the murder. It was planned."

or

"She dropped this on her way out"

"I'm getting a sense of love. I think she went willingly"

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 09:59 PM

QUOTE (Shadowmeet)

Absolutely. It's the staple of a magically-active investigator-type. IIRC, 'Psychometry' is even a valid Assensing specialization.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 23 2006, 10:02 PM

I really love the idea of a Spirit/Ghost hunting adept.
Astral Perception, some mystic armor, a weapon focus and some assensing. Knowledge of Summoning/Banishing. Occult knowledges. Investigation skills, and contacts. Very tres chic.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 10:07 PM

I agree, There wouldn't be references to readable impressions if they shouldn't be used, but making the leap from impression to trackable aura is a bit much.

Posted by: Nim Jun 23 2006, 10:08 PM

QUOTE (Shadowmeet)

Who ya gonna call?

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Jun 24 2006, 05:22 AM

QUOTE (Lilt)

@X-Kalibur:
@Shinobi Killfist: Completely valid points about going for the summoner of the spirit. Although not all security forces will have the conviction to go for an invisible enemy when somethign with a good attack skill is sending 5P blasts reduced by half armor at them, that's probably their best bet.

I don't quite agree with taking the nerf bat to concealment, however. What you're suggesting is effectiely making it 1/3rd as effective. Concealment is usually fine, equivalent to a boost to the character's infiltration skill equal to the spirit's force, and in-keeping with the power possible from other service options. It only becomes a big deal when you're dealing with enemies with low dice pools.

well yeah its a big nerf bat but if you have a problem with spirits and magic a nerf bat should be used. As I incoherently pointed out I don't have an issue yet with magic being too good. But if someone does nerf things.

Also yeah not all sec teams will target the mage, and those guys can get eaten by the spirit of doom. If the mage is the target well then its time for the sammie to shine and save the day. And if the mage is invisible well then lets hope the sec team has ultrasound goggles and if not well then flashbang the area you think the mage is to death.

probably get themselves to in that 10m radius, but hey they may be ok with enough armor on.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 24 2006, 11:01 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Concealment applies to all perception tests. When a rigger is in control, they roll sensors+perception for that test. Wether or not a test in which perception is rolled counts as a perception test, even if it has another name also, I think is completely open to debait.

I'm arguing this point for a number of reasons.
Firstly, Continuity. Concealment worked against sensors in 3rd edition, a fact that I've seen used in many runs.
Secondly, I don't see how drones could be completely unaffected by this power. If a normal character has all of the vision modes and ultrasound, they still get -force in dice on tests to see the subject. In that, it's established that the concealment power works against a range of electromagnetic frequencies (at-least normal through thermographic) and sound (ultrasound). With the exception of radar, there's little that the drone can have which it isn't already established that the concealment power works against. In the case of radar, it's just another electromagnetic frequency which concealment works against many of.
Thirdly, I actually quite like the idea of using spirits to hide from technological sensors. It reminds me slightly of the predator movie, when arnie crawls out of the water through the mud and the predator doesn't pick him up on his thermographic vision because of the thick mud covering.

Even without the concealment versus drones issue, however, I think that I have proven my point that mages aren't powerless against riggers in this edition.

Assensing and psycometry are a powerful and flavourful tool. By the RAW, a characer coming into contact with an object leaves an impression of their aura on that object. Also by the RAW, it takes 2 successes to identify an aura if you've seen it before. There's no changing of rules involved there, that's just one of the powers of magic. I did say that you got a lot for 15BP, didn't I?

@Shadowmeet: Adepts actually make some of the best people at assensing thanks to the Enhanced Perception power. Using it, it's not too much trouble to make a guy who rolls 15-16 dice for assensing. That's enough to on-average get the 5 successes required for the maximum level of detail, like details of all of the subjects implants and details and reasons for their emotional state. What you can get almost amounts to mind-reading.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 24 2006, 05:17 PM

QUOTE

It reminds me slightly of the predator movie, when arnie crawls out of the water through the mud and the predator doesn't pick him up on his thermographic vision because of the thick mud covering.

Because obviously Arnie was using the spirits of the mud to mask his body temperature.

QUOTE

By the RAW, a characer coming into contact with an object leaves an impression of their aura on that object.

It says you leave an impression. It doesn't ever mention the word aura. It's quite possible to leave an emotional impression with no tracable ties to who left it. If you choose to add trackability of auras to the word impression, that's obviously your choice to make, but it's most definitely a house rule.

Posted by: Kyrn the Second Jul 4 2006, 02:29 PM

How hard would it be to commit a crime, any crime, if anything you have ever touched can be used to track you/send a spirit after you? Bullet casing, doorknobs, the ground beneath your feet.

Posted by: ornot Jul 4 2006, 03:03 PM

Seeing as this thread has been resurrected...

I'm in agreement with prior comments by Shadowmeet and Nim about Psychometry. You can't assense someones aura off anything someone has touched. The term impression means you can detect what a holder was feeling or doing (in an abstract sense) when they were in contact with the object. There is another thread about material components which is related to this. I think to leave anything like an astral signature on an object it would need to fulfil the criteria of a material link as well and as such it would need a strong association with the target.

On the OT... what was it? how to make Sams stand out in a game? Play to their strengths. If they can't do anything unique in the party then they have a problem. But it's exactly the same problem you might have if you had 3 faces, all of them competing over who got to shmooze Johnson, or three combat mages all trying to sling powerballs at the same time.

I'd also like to give my two yen on a spirits concealment power. I feel that the type of concealment should in some way reflect the spirit type. It's called concealment after all, not invisibility. So, say an Earth spirit might generate a cloud of dust or an air spirit might make clouds, or a water spirit might make fog, or a fire spirit might make smoke. These would all make it harder to spot the characters, but the guards would still probably notice the smoke or whathaveyou. Comments?

Posted by: Kyrn the Second Jul 4 2006, 03:12 PM

On the topic, sams rock fairly hard. They have a harder time against spirits yes, but I haven't run into a spirit yet that couldn't have its day ruined by a monowhip or a rocket. Sams have the skills. Sams have the ware. Sams have pure coolness. Plenty of people have done the math typey breakdowns, but I feel that above all, adepts and sams are differentiated by their flavor.

Of course I play a mage who most people think is a sam.