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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Spirit Possession question

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 20 2006, 12:42 AM

I'm running Queen Euphoria and one of the PCs has a bound free spirit. Said bound free spirit was ordered to use its Possession power on Euphoria to keep her ot of trouble, and from whining, while the runners babyst her the first weekend. I see a problem coming if the spirit doesn't leave Euphoria.

Can the insect spirit possess the same body? Does it force the free spirit out? does it possess both the free spirit and Euphoria? Something else?

Posted by: Ancient History Jun 20 2006, 12:45 AM

Have the insect shaman banish/disrupt the spirit first.

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 20 2006, 12:51 AM

QUOTE (Ancient History)

Have the insect shaman banish/disrupt the spirit first.

Thanks, that sounds like a good hand wave type of thin. In reality the Free spirit has double digit Force and double digit Spirit energy, so the reality might prove difficult.

If nothing else, the hand wave might instill some fear into the party.

Posted by: Ancient History Jun 20 2006, 01:00 AM

Well, if you want to be evil about it, the insect shaman could successfully summon the queen, the queen spirit and the free spirit fight, and the queen rips the free spirit to shreds (disruption).

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 20 2006, 01:16 AM

That is unlikely as the Queen has a stated force of 5 and the Free Spirit has at least F10 and SE 10 giving it an effective Force of 20. That is why I said it was unlikely to happen.

I see one option of increasing the Queens force enough to defeat the FS. However, the scenario says the queen is helpless and vulnerable while incubating in Euphoria.

Another solution is hat Euphoria comes out of the adventure whole.

The best solution is trying to get the player/PC to order the spirit out of Euphoria in between kidnappings while it looks like the adventure is over.

It still leaves the question of how many beings can possess a form? As long as the challenger defeats the strongest/controlling being, they may all pile in? Defeat boots out all but the owner of the body (if they were present)? Other?

Posted by: Lindt Jun 20 2006, 01:46 AM

A force 10 bound spirit? Well thats your mistake. Your player got acess to a force 10 conjuring libary, and a force 10 circle, and finally managed to pull a tn of 20 out? I suppose...

Either way, its feasable that the shamen kicks your spirits ass out after cunjuring the queen. Or prehaps use some watcher pack attacks? Or heck, just stun guns the heck out of Euphoria?

Always consider your APL (avg power level) when looking at written modules. A force 10 bound spirit brings that number up a pretty big jump.

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 20 2006, 01:59 AM

QUOTE (Lindt)

A force 10 bound spirit? Well thats your mistake. Your player got acess to a force 10 conjuring libary, and a force 10 circle, and finally managed to pull a tn of 20 out? I suppose...

Ummm, no.

It was a Force 3, newly gone free spirit with a spirit energy of one. The Pc has fed it karma and when it got the Wealth power uses the proceeds to buy karma for it.

Posted by: Protagonist Jun 20 2006, 02:39 AM

QUOTE (Member #5177)

and when it got the Wealth power uses the proceeds to buy karma for it.

I don't think it works like that . . .

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't particularly remember seeing a rule where you could trade in money for karma during gameplay.

Whatever way that does work (or doesn't), it's seems ridiculously broken . . .

Posted by: Bodak Jun 20 2006, 05:39 PM

Cash for Karma and Karma for Cash are something I've been familiar with since starting playing SR, but I am not sure if I have ever read it in canon. It's so that the mage can get rid of unwanted nuyen to buy more spells and skills (if not saving for foci) and so the rigger can dispose of karma in favour of more nuyen. It's something like giving 5000 gives you 1kp and every 1kp you give away gives you 500 . NSRCG has it implemented. In plot terms you can represent it by the character going out and spending his hard earned cash on food for the homeless, perhaps bribing his instructor with extra funds (thus winning him a bit more karma to spend on the skill) etc etc. So if you have a free spirit that barfs up a chunk of gold once a month you can "reward" it with karma generated by spending that gold. People might wonder where you got it from. They might assence it and try and track down your golden goose. If you're looking to feed your pet FS karma though why not just tell it to learn Conjure Food 10 and send it to Africa whenever you sleep?

As for Euphoria - perhaps there are wards around where she's being kept possessed and the FS cannot pass through them. For example, there's one around her toilet and she's desperate to go, so the FS decides it will deposess her and jump back in as soon as she's finished and steps out.

Additionally, since FSs take no drain from Sorcery they are undepletable spellcasting batteries. Any player that asks his FS for Increase Reflexes 10 on the basis that the FS won't need to resist 20 Deadly Naval drain (or whatever it works out as) might end up with Parkinson's, but a mage that just uses his FS to cast every Heal (with the LOS modifier of course) for him is tolerable. So the guy who's bound the FS gets separated from the rest of the group and takes some Stun and regular damage. He needs healing fast. He chants the name of his FS three times and orders an extra-value heal and some fries. Its job done, the FS is told to return to Euphoria. Queue the music

QUOTE (SIMON & GARFUNKEL - BRIDGE OVER TROUBLED WATER (1970))

Making love in the afternoon with Euphoria
Up in my bedroom
I got up to wash my face
When I come back to bed
Someone's taken my place

Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 20 2006, 05:52 PM

If the group is powerful enough to summon and bind Free Spirits of that caliber, then they are powerful enough to break Queen Euphoria. Accept it, let them legitimately stomp all over it, and move on to something more challenging, like Imago or Harlequin or something.

Posted by: Lindt Jun 20 2006, 06:56 PM

Or Shutdown.

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 21 2006, 02:29 AM

QUOTE (Toptomcat @ Jun 20 2006, 01:52 PM)

A rating 4 Astral Quest for a True Name and a Conjuring 4 test. What is so difficult about that?

QUOTE (Protagonist)

QUOTE (Member #5177)

and when it got the Wealth power uses the proceeds to buy karma for it.

In addition to what Bodak said, characters can give karma to free spirits, that is in fact the only way they can get karma, by bargaining for it. So why is it so hard to understand paying npcs for karma? Or using the money generated by the Wealth power to fund the activity?

It also generates roleplaying opportunityies as the PCs help carry out the transactions and the problems that ensue.

In regard to the original question, I do not know the answer. In the game, I am going to go on to another run(s) until the spirit leaves Euphoria, and then return to the second part of the adventure following the second abduction.

Thanks for trying to pick apart my characters instead of trying to answer the question.

Not quite thread crapping, but I'm sure there is another derogatory term for it.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 21 2006, 03:06 AM

I''m going to agree with Toptomcat here. From now on your team shall be known as The Kirks because they won the unwinable game.

There is way way that Euphoria can be invested while possessed. The process takes many hours (if not days) so it isn't just a matter of the Queen shredding the Free Spirit. The Free Spirit can attack the Queen before it even has a foothold on our planes. Likewise, at that force the shaman isn't likely to disrupt it.

As for the Cash for Karma issue it is quite fair. Cash for Karma is an actual rule. It's in the SR3 Companion, I believe. I like to think that there is a network of Karma brokers made up mostly of Free Spirits of various types. Still, using the wealth power this way is murder. I would actually make it very difficult for a PC to profit from the wealth power by invoking market discrimination.

Wealth's products are precious minerals and similar materials. You can't produce electronic nuyen or real paper scrip out of thin air. You have to liquidate those minerals somehow. The problem is that precious minerals are precious because they are rare and impossible produce artificially. As such, the Wealth Power will have a detrimental effect on the market if the market doesn't discriminate agaisnt it. Today, artifical diamonds are other artificial gemstones are not worth as much as their natural counterparts because of this. Detecting the product of Wealth will be easy. Wealth will produce things that are too perfect. Gemstones will be literally flawless. Minerals will contain no contaminents. These 100% perfect minerals will be worth much less than there real and flawed counterparts. Flooding the market will only make them less valuable.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 03:13 AM

100% perfect materials would be more valuable in some instances, such as gemstone lenses.

Posted by: Sharaloth Jun 21 2006, 03:20 AM

Well, why don't you just have the F10, SE10 Free Spirit start asserting itself. Remember, it wants these silly runners DEAD. It's had no choice but to do what his master's been ordering it to, and usually, powerful Free Spirits HATE this. Have it make a deal with the bugs, it'll let go of Euphoria so long as they take out the magician who bound it, or at least free it from him. then proceed with the module.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 03:22 AM

Yeah, enslaving powerful creatures is never a good idea.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 21 2006, 03:32 AM

A bound Free Spirit can't disobey and it was ordered to protect Euphoria; therefore, it can't make that deal no matter how much it may want to.

But it can do other things against them. It can, for example, secretly take over an organized crime family in its spare time and tell its underlings that it doesn't like its Master. It can't order its henchmen to kill its Master but it can drop some pretty obvious hints.

QUOTE (James McMurray)

100% perfect materials would be more valuable in some instances, such as gemstone lenses.

Not more valuable, more useful the difference is subtle but important. These isolated cases don't do much for the commodities market at large and the people who make gemstone lenses would be buying the artificially produced materials at the same signifivcantly reduced cost that major jewelry manufacturers pay for them. Of course, if they weren't available on the open market these manufacturers would pay out the ass for them, but fencing goods for such specific applications will require quite a bit of work.

Posted by: Protagonist Jun 21 2006, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Member #5177)

Thanks for trying to pick apart my characters instead of trying to answer the question.

Not quite thread crapping, but I'm sure there is another derogatory term for it.

The closest it gets, would be "derailing."

In actuality, I was trying to help you with your game. Get to the problem behind the problem. Because, there is a problem, one that won't just disappear with Euphoria.

One of your players seems to have a source of infinite karma.

I wasn't trying to attack you or your game in anyway. My first assumption was simply that it was just a player pulling the wool over his GMs eyes; wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

Don't worry. I won't try to help you ever again, with this or anything else do to the rude way you responded.

Posted by: Sharaloth Jun 21 2006, 10:47 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

A bound Free Spirit can't disobey and it was ordered to protect Euphoria; therefore, it can't make that deal no matter how much it may want to.

Sure it can.

FS: "No, vile bug shaman! I have been ordered to protect this girl, and I shall do so as long as my master lives! He's the one with the blue eyes, spiky green hair, about five foot ten. He likes to hang out at this seedy bar, lives at 427 fake street apartment 1302, his maglock code is 74183 and he snores so loudly you could set off fireworks in his room and he wouldn't wake up. Here, I'll draw you a picture and a map. Now, even if you get this far, you'll never get past the guardian elemental, who is force 5 and weak against water attacks. And even then, my master has wards set up around his place, which you certainly could never get through without warning him unless you turn off all your magical gear before stepping through the door. No, you're not going to get this girl so long as he lives!"

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 11:09 PM

LOL!

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 22 2006, 03:01 AM

QUOTE (Protagonist)

In actuality, I was trying to help you with your game. Get to the problem behind the problem. Because, there is a problem, one that won't just disappear with Euphoria.

One of your players seems to have a source of infinite karma.

I wasn't trying to attack you or your game in anyway. My first assumption was simply that it was just a player pulling the wool over his GMs eyes; wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

Don't worry. I won't try to help you ever again, with this or anything else do to the rude way you responded.

You were the least of the problem. You just offered an incorrect opinion, perhaps one that many people believe, hence why free spirits are not running the Shadowrun world. (I agree with you, the rule can break a game when applied to free spirits.)

I guess the answer is whoever/whatever is in control of the body battles the challenger for the body. If the loser does not belong to the body, they must depart the body. Does this sound correct?

PS: Good one Sharaloth, but this guy has kept his free spirits very happy. I would go into more details, but then I would be digressing as those with whom I was short.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 22 2006, 03:32 AM

This is true with normal possession but Insect Spirit investing is very different from possession. First of all, Possession can only be done against astrally active characters...... and I was about half way through that sentence when I remembered that Euphoria isn't a magician. You see, a Free Spirit possess someone by beating down that character's astral form and then taking over the body. The host must loose to the Free Spirit in Astral Combat. Do you see where this is going? The Free Spirit can't possess Euphoria because it cannot fight her in astral combat because she doesn't have the ability to interact with the astral plane. That's a problem there.

As I was saying. Insect Spirits work differently. They don't Possess their victims. They Invest their victims. The concept is superficially similar but the results and the process are very different.
Free Spirits beat their hosts astral bodies into unconsciousness and then take the wheels of the host's meat bodies. The host wakes and and regains control when the Free Spirit leaves. This can be done anywhere at any time and it only takes a combat turn.
Investing takes several hours and it can only be done in special cocoons. The specifics of the process are unknown but the results are. The process removes or destroys the victim's 'soul' (for lack of a better term) without damaging the meat body. The Insect Spirit then either takes up residence in the meat or consumes it completely and becomes a 'True Form'. Which of the two occurs depends on the victim's willpower. Most 'Flesh Forms' have insectile features due to the Invae's attempts to gestate into a 'True Form'. If the victim has high willpower the meat body may retain its memories and impose its personality on the Invae. Again, the exact mechanism is unknown. Perhaps the a fragment of the 'soul' survives in these 'good merges' but it may just be that the meat brain incluances the Invae where the Invae would normally influance the meat. At any rate, it is nothing like possession and there is no evidence that larval Invae can fight resisting astral forms before or during Investation. Most victims are rendered unable or unwilling to resist and it is impossible for an Invae to exist ooutside of a cacoon untill gestation is complete.

Also, it does't work the same way for Shedim Possession, either. Shedim can only possess empty bodies but you can get your body back by disrupting the Shedim squatting in it.

The way I see it in the case of the standard Possession power the second spirit would have to disrupt the first or force it to leave and then defeat the owner's Astral Body in Astral Combat. This should be easy since the owner will still be unconscious in most cases. In the case of Shedim Possession the Shedim has to disrupt the Free Spirit and then kill the owner in either Astral or Physical combat before taking the body. Obviously, for the Shedim to use physical combat it would require a body. In the case of Insect Spirit Investing it would be impossible. Any Free spirit would shred a larval Invae in the cocoon. The Shaman or Mother would need to disrupt it.

Posted by: Protagonist Jun 22 2006, 03:54 AM

QUOTE (Member #5177)

Please clarify for me. You agree with my incorrect opinion (which isn't incorrect; it's an opinion) that the ability when applied with a certain optional rule is broken?

Posted by: Kremlin KOA Jun 22 2006, 04:12 AM

time for the minority report

okay advice to your magician player

"Spirit these are your new standing orders
You are not to act, speak, or conspire in any way to harm me.
You are to actively and immediately warn me of ay plots to harm me that you discover.
You are to use all your powers to oppose any attempt to free you
You are to obey nobody except me
You are to never speak of your true name."

Oh and guys, force 3 SE 1 to F 10+ SE10+ is a huge jump over such a short time, many spirits would keep riding the gravy train until it peters out

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 22 2006, 09:25 AM

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

Oh and guys, force 3 SE 1 to F 10+ SE10+ is a huge jump over such a short time, many spirits would keep riding the gravy train until it peters out

Exactly. The shaman made a deal when he was summoning it for binding promising an average of at least a point of karma/day over a 2 year period. The spirit agreed. He added that if the spirit were unhappy with the arrangement to let him know and he would do his best to adjust it. I let it happen as GM because the Free Spirit is like a friend for life that helps out a few days a month and drains off lots of resources.

The most dangerous thing it has been asked to do is Possess people. And the shaman usually sends some summoned nature spirits to accompany the free spirit to make sure the job goes down smoothly.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Do you see where this is going? The Free Spirit can't possess Euphoria because it cannot fight her in astral combat because she doesn't have the ability to interact with the astral plane. That's a problem there.

Astral Gateway can be used to force the astral combat, another power the free spirit possesses.

Thanks for the distinctions and explanations, they really helped.

QUOTE (Protagonist)

Please clarify for me. You agree with my incorrect opinion (which isn't incorrect; it's an opinion) that the ability when applied with a certain optional rule is broken?

I disagree that free spirits could not simply buy karma. It is stated in the rules that they bargain for karma all the time. Surely there are npcs willing to trade a point of karma for the book rate of 5000 nuyen a point. I think your assertion there was no such mechanism was wrong.

I do agree the rule breaks the game if players take advantage of it, just look what I described, and IMO I was making the best of the situation by bleeding off resources and creating adventures out of the buying karma phase.

I find it hard to believe there are not triple digit free spirits running around and ruling the world, or at least challenging dragons as the top of the hill. I have not read through Dot6W to see how the newly implemented rules would play out, but a free spirit with triple digit stats seems formidable. And they can go from newborn to this size within a year or two of game time. There should be hundreds or more of them out there, yet they are ignored like they do not or can not exist. Most canon free spirits I have heard of seem feeble by comparison.

Posted by: Sharaloth Jun 22 2006, 05:35 PM

The way we play it in my game, the most powerful FS on earth is a Force 25 SE 23 unique spirit. He's pretty much the strongest a spirit can get on earth with the current mana-levels (okay, so technically he's only a shard of a much greater spirit, but it still counts). Any higher, and it starts to become impossible for the gaiasphere to maintain the spirit's form (that is, the current mana-levels are actually so low as to be like a mana-warp for a spirit of that power). This forces all the uber-spirits into the metaplanes (possibly even the DEEP metaplanes) to avoid a messy death by starvation on earth. At a certain power level, the spirits NEVER come to earth, because the only time they'd be able to survive is about the same time some rather.... unpleasant characters also take up habitation.

It's not canon by any means, but I think it makes sense.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (Member #5177)

IMO that shouldn't have been a case of binding the spirit, it should have been a case of them coming to a mutual agreement. Despite any amount of promises, a free spirit would (IMO) avoid being bound at all costs. If the summoner really does just want to trade services, there's no need for enforced slavery.

Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 22 2006, 06:14 PM

Also, about the Free Spirit conspiring against the player? Maybe with yaks, or wiseguys, or ninja clans, but these are bug spirits they're up against. You know, spiritual-bane-of-the-natural-order bug spirits? Piss-off-other-spirits-by-their-very-existance bug spirits? It is very unlikely that a spirit would collude with them.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 06:20 PM

An ungodly force free spirit capable of taking the bug spirits out all alone might conspire with them at first in order to remove the guy that's got his chains around the spirit's soul. Afterwards he can mop up the bad guys, earning the Run Karma as an added bonus.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 22 2006, 06:58 PM

I usually see Karma for Cash as being money poured into a specific activity. It's not like there's some First International Bank of Karma sitting out there with an exchange rate, the character is spending his money on training, on books, on taking people out to dinner and socializing beyond the norm, tossing some extra cash towards that Enchantment you're working on to have a consultant tweak it a bit... whatever it is you choose to justify all that extra cash turning into what's essentially XP.

"Normal" Karma, on the other hand, is that nebulous something that makes people learn or do amazing things. It's esoteric, it's je nais se quoi, it's bullshit, but it's also the reason why a character gets better if his player does something really amusing.

Feeding a free spirit bought Karma that he's essentially creating in the first place, while possible by the rules, is something I wouldn't allow. The character could use the money from his spirit to buy HIMSELF Karma (which could represent, say, days of time and thousands of rounds of ammo spent on the range), but under my paradigm of Karma for Cash, there's no way the magician should be allowed to spend that cash to turn the free spirit into something huge.

Yeah. Sorry. Every other type of character in SR has to work to improve, be it improvement by boosting a skill, or by pouring his Karma into something like a bound free spirit. Having something that literally gets more powerful the more downtime I give the group is just bent. How's that song go... "Get your money for nothing, your Karma for free..."

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 07:02 PM

Historically karma has been awarded for "doing the right thing." Cash for karma could simply representing donating your money to charity.

It doesn't explain how doing good acts helps you learn to speak swahili, but nothing ever has, nor do I think it needs to.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 22 2006, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

It wouldn't be able to earn karma from the run. Spirits can't earn karma. They can only recieve it (or take it in some cases). This is probably why powerful Free Spirits have set up large orginizations and cults around themselves. In some cases they exxchange power for karma. In other cases they dupe their followers into providing them with karma through worship and adulation.

Of course, there is nothing stopping a Free Spirit from doing karma for cash all by itself. If the Church of Perpetual Prosperity offers 5000

to anyone who participates its prayer service there will be no shortage of worshipers.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 22 2006, 07:47 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

I can think of few other things in SR that don't at least require you to be making a skill roll (I'm thinking Alchemy here) to turn a profit during downtime. The Day Job flaw is the only other example of something like this that comes to mind.

The longer the gap I have between sessions, the more powerful this spirit is going to be when it shows up, despite nothing really "character building" having gone on. I like the general idea of the character interactions and think it could lead to some cool RP, but the way the mechanics are being handled isn't something I'd allow in a game I was running. Obviously, it works for another GM, and I'm glad they're having a good time with it.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 22 2006, 08:07 PM

Downtime can be very character building. If it isn't "character building" that's because it isn't roleplayed. In most campaigns downtime is simply glosses over. However, downtime can be an adventure in and of itself.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 08:10 PM

I wasn't saying that the wealth power should be combinable with cash for karma, just giving another option for explaining cash for karma. In fact, in a game where karma is based at least partially on good deeds, giving up something that isn't a sacrifice wouldn't be worth any karma at all (or at least have a drastically reduced rate). So an heir to a giant fortune or a sprit with the wealth power wouldn't be able to spend money for karma, he'd have to find something else to sacrifice.

Perhaps instead of a flat 1:5000 rate the karma received should be based on the amount given up. If someone has only 500:nuyen: t their name, giving it up might be worth 2 or 3 karma. If someone has millions, they'd have to use a 1:1,000,000 ratio. A spirit with a wealth power or a character with access to one couldn't benefit at all from the rule because giving up a portion of infinity isn't worth anything.

The numbers aren't calculated or tested, just tossed out as a basis.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 22 2006, 08:16 PM

I still think that the best way to limit a spirit's weal power is be reducing the value of the raw minerals produced by the power. Even if you limit cash-for-karma you still have to deal with the magician having access to an infinite amount of money. This leads quickly to permenant luxury lifesyles, delta-grade 'ware, and Force 12 weapon foci.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 08:25 PM

Much simpler just to disallow it. Perhaps not the best option for some games, but it avoids having to try and decide on economic trends and the impact of a fresh supply.

Can Wealth create the various minerals used in orichalcum? Can it create orichalcum?

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 23 2006, 05:37 AM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

I usually see Karma for Cash as being money poured into a specific activity. It's not like there's some First International Bank of Karma sitting out there with an exchange rate, the character is spending his money on training, on books, on taking people out to dinner and socializing beyond the norm, tossing some extra cash towards that Enchantment you're working on to have a consultant tweak it a bit... whatever it is you choose to justify all that extra cash turning into what's essentially XP.

Or selling karma for cash to a free spirit.

QUOTE

Feeding a free spirit bought Karma that he's essentially creating in the first place, while possible by the rules, is something I wouldn't allow. The character could use the money from his spirit to buy HIMSELF Karma (which could represent, say, days of time and thousands of rounds of ammo spent on the range), but under my paradigm of Karma for Cash

The PC taking the money and buying karma is Cash for Karma, which I try to minimize or the game becomes one of maxxed out PCs.

QUOTE

Yeah. Sorry. Every other type of character in SR has to work to improve

Yeah, every other character can earn, (aka work to improve) their own karma. The free spirit still needs time to learn spells, or skills. I rule the same for increasing its Attributes, but it gets thrown off by the oddity of Spirit Energy.

QUOTE

I can think of few other things in SR that don't at least require you to be making a skill roll (I'm thinking Alchemy here) to turn a profit during downtime.

How is there not a skill roll? Using the Wealth power involves a roll, which is more than some powers require. If you mean the cash for karma, that can be a negotiation roll or an entire adventure in itself.

For example, the runners put out word among the barrens. Some Street Shaman hears, figures out a free spirit is involved, and decides to try binding the spirit himself. Or offering the spirit a better deal. Or countless other problems arise. A runner team or gang realizes there is going to be a huge amount of cash on hand and plans a robbery. When the runners sell whatever the Wealth power generated, the buyer decides to track and steal their source.

For the amount of trouble... er, I mean adventures it starts, the FS, C4K issue is worth the tiny benefits the group gets. It has put a different spin on many of the published adventures I have run the players through. It is like breathing fresh breath into old modules. I can just about count on them possessing a person or 2 and usually learning the factions involved and their goals. DNA/DOA, Mercurial, Bottled Demon, and Dream Chipper have all had radically different results than other times I have run them for other groups.

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 23 2006, 05:54 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

I am looking at it from the other perspective, how much would an npc demand for a point of karma? It relates to how you are saying the rich would value theirs more highly.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

I still think that the best way to limit a spirit's wealth power is by reducing the value of the raw minerals produced by the power. Even if you limit cash-for-karma you still have to deal with the magician having access to an infinite amount of money.

However, if you reduce the value of the materials, the Wealth power will just supply more. Wealth provides X nuyen worth of something, not X amount of something. I also do not see why the spirit could not produce more than 1 type of X to reach the total, reducing flooding the market, if the market is so small it could be flooded.

QUOTE

This leads quickly to permenant luxury lifesyles, delta-grade 'ware, and Force 12 weapon foci.

Permanent Luxury Lifestyles usually signify character retirement. Availability still exists for acquiring other items. The PCs still need Essence for 'ware and karma for bonding.

For example, in this game, the highest force spell is 8, and the PC has 2 at that force (Heal and Astral Armor) then the force drops back to 6. He still needs to be able to learn it. For that matter, so would the spirit. The same limits apply to foci in that if the force is too high, no enchanter is going to risk wasting their time trying to enchant the focus, failing and wasting their time - there are more profitable ways to use their time. The highest weapon focus is force 1, just so they can take something with +2 reach astrally. No character has delta grade anything.

Posted by: Member #5177 Jun 23 2006, 06:00 AM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

Can Wealth create the various minerals used in orichalcum? Can it create orichalcum?

I let it create the raw/refined materials for orichalcum. They still need to be enchanted into radicals before they may be used to make orichalcum. I would count them as virgin materials, so they have a slightly higher demand, but not higher price, than comparable materials. So someone wanting to enchant a sword would love to have the Wealth power produce a sword.

I do not let the Wealth power create anything magical, like foci, just mundane items of magical origin.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 01:22 PM

QUOTE

I am looking at it from the other perspective, how much would an npc demand for a point of karma? It relates to how you are saying the rich would value theirs more highly.

Karma is generally rewarded for things you do. Karma for good acts is generally more when the good act requires more sacrifice. If you want to let billionaires spend 5,000,000:nuyen: and get 5,000 karma that is of course your right. Just be prepared for wealthy people to be the best at everything. Some fat old couch potato could have a 20 in a skill with basically no resources spent.

Posted by: Justin Cray Jun 23 2006, 01:32 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

I am looking at it from the other perspective, how much would an npc demand for a point of karma? It relates to how you are saying the rich would value theirs more highly.

Or just initiate until you are Level 20 and win the game.

I disallow C4K and K4C. Doesn't feel right.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 23 2006, 01:34 PM

Why not initiate to 20 and get a 20 spellcasting. You're getting karma slower than you're earning interest.