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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Spicing Up Combat

Posted by: Drraagh Jun 20 2006, 09:42 AM

I had started a topic on bullet ricochet as it could be used in combat, and most people said that it wasn't a very possible idea though at least one seemed to like it. For me, it was a way to try and make combat a little different, and if you want to read it, see it http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=13470.

What I'm wondering is if people just do the standard "You see a badguy" "I shoot it and hit" "It shoots you and hits" "I shoot it....." sort of combator if they find ways to make it more interesting. Perhaps its a cinematic duel over a bottomless pit, where the player has to keep rolling athletics to make sure not to fall. Or perhaps its a gun fight in a pressurized plane where they have to keep from breaking a window and destroying cabin pressure. Or maybe its just some little trick you use to keep players interested and in some cases at the edge of their seat when the combat rolls around.

There's the examples I quoted, both of which are likely from action movies. Another example, most likely one that a player would do rather than being situational is the door slide done in Equilibrium. Would give the surprise test, though the TNs for motion could be a bit high (even though he didn't start shooting until he stoped, by then they were reacting). Same with some of the Errol Flynn sort of moves that I mentioned in the other thread.

Anyone given this any thought and have some ways to make combat more exciting, more involving than just rolling dice?

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 20 2006, 10:52 AM

Here are a few suggestions:

Use a battlemat/similar thing with minis and furniture, parked cars, etc. So that the players won't have to ask you if there is a car to hide behind, or whatever.

Allow the players to have some lattitude in describing the scenery (possibly allowing them to use edge?) so that there is now a couch for them to heroically dive behind or a can of paint that they can kick at thier foes.

Add bonus dice/ mechanical game effects to things are are better detailed than 'I hit him' (outright theft of the Exalted stunt system).

For those of you not familiar with the Exalted stunt system, it goes something like this:

Description more interesting than 'I use <skill>' or 'I hit again'
1 bonus die
Sample:
I grab his ear and give it a viscous twist. (unarmed combat)

Description meeting above, plus including stuff about the envoronment.
2 bonus dice
Sample:
Having no time to open a window, I bring my gun up anf fire it though the windshield. The windshield shatters. The muzzle blast inside the car is deafening. (shooting attack from inside a vehicle)

Description meeting the above criteria, in addtion makes the other plays say 'cool'
3 bonus dice.

Posted by: Toptomcat Jun 20 2006, 02:02 PM

One interesting thing to remember is that a typical interior door, or typical interior wall, doesn't stop the vast majority of bullets. So the PCs can come under blind fire by guards with good hearing, and they can do the same to them.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 20 2006, 03:37 PM

For what bullets will penetrate:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Posted by: Lindt Jun 20 2006, 04:17 PM

I love rewarding good discriptions. I have a relitivly new player who makes a lot of shots with a pretty poor skills (2 and a laser sight), because shes a great story weaver. It all makes me a happy panda.

Yeah, 2 sheets of 3/8" drywall dosent stop much in the way of bullets. Or feet, metahuman bodies, or large car parts.

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 21 2006, 01:47 AM

any time a player goes for any type of cover its a gymastics (1) test.

im to brain fried to think right now lol. Theres all kinds of cool things to incorporate.

One of the things i thought that i dont want to flesh out is making the player take some kinda test when a bad guy shoots and misses but the bullet makes something break or explode or something. Missed bullets causes something in the environment to react which could spell danger to a player.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jun 21 2006, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (Abbandon)

...bullets miss character(s) who laugh(s) at shooter. Meanwhile, stray shots pierce chemical vat a few metres behind. Said chemical (something that is usually terribly nasty like a corrosive or other caustic) seeps along floor and around said character(s)'s feet.

(Got the idea from the first Batman Movie - the shootout as Axxis Chemicals)

...now it's the GM's turn to laugh

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 21 2006, 03:30 AM

Am I the only one who's been fortunate enough to play with people (on both sides of the GM screen) who don't need to be bribed into telling everyone how their character is being way cooler than everyone else's?

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 21 2006, 10:07 AM

Its better to praise good roleplayers than make fun of the bad ones. This is a ROLE PLAYING game. Your not just rolling dice to get a certain number a certain number of times. Your creating a story.

Some people like big bright colorful stories and some dont. If you dont like a story why dont you play something like monopoly or scrabble that doesnt have any story lol.

Or you could make some crappy attempt to join in the fun. Nobody will make fun of you....to much.

Your not just shooting somebody cuz you happen to have a loaded gun in your belt and that dude was the closest person to you.

Your shooting at the guy because he kicked you in the nuts, stole your comlink, told you that your mother was a troll, and kicked a dent in your motorcycle.

Posted by: Dog Jun 21 2006, 12:51 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

Probably not the only one, but yes, you are fortunate.

Another thing I encourage players to do is use witty banter. Only so much real information can be passed around during combat. (Use a simple action to yell "he's behind the door!" or something.) but Arnie-esque one liners, witty curses and taunts are free.

Also remember that karma is awarded for good role-playing, and that's exactly what we're after.

And as for the bonus dice thing, I like it and will probably try it.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 01:24 PM

QUOTE (Abbandon)

So-called "roll-playing" is just another aspect of the game we play. Some people prefer it. They play RPGs because it isn't as much fun to imagine your boot buying Baltic Avenue as it is to imagine your boot planted in someone's neck.

In my experience most groups are either a cohesive whole where everyone plays the same style (very rare) or a jumbled mass of gamers with some who sit around waiting for combat and others who do their best to avoid combat via diplomacy, and others who are in between (most common).

And besides, some characters are shooting the guy because they have a loaded gun, a nearby unfortunate victim, and a wild hair up their butts. If your character is that sort of person, shooting the guy next to you is roleplaying.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 21 2006, 04:43 PM

We encouraged movement in SR3 by swapping the penalties for moving attacker and moving defender (basically making you not take much of a penalty for diving around, but the other guy taking a much bigger penalty trying to hit you if you were diving around).

Another good thing would be to borrow from Feng Shui or one of the other cinematic games out there, and give players bonuses for cool descriptions of what they're doing. Trust me, you pass out a lowered TN or a couple of extra dice for good descriptions, and your combat perks right up...

Posted by: mfb Jun 21 2006, 06:40 PM

i play pretty much exclusively online, so good descriptions are a must. dull posters make the games really hard to play; there's nothing there to work with. luckily, we've only got one or two of those.

Posted by: Drraagh Jun 21 2006, 08:41 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

I get a TT game in maybe once or twice a month, most of my stuff is online as well. It's why I tend to include some third party programs there like a chat program that has a whiteboard to do maps so they know where everything is as well as explaining where it is.

But yes, I do agree good descriptions are a must. However, to some degree so are quick ones depending on the scenario. I was once involved online with a combat involving 20+ PCs and about ten NPCs who were souped up cyberjunkies and mages. So, to get through one round of combat probably took two or three hours because people were questioning the rules, going off on tangents, taking long times to post and so forth. So, we kept getting held up. But in smaller scenes and combats, it does tend to be better with large flavor text.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 22 2006, 11:15 PM

QUOTE (Abbandon)

Its better to praise good roleplayers than make fun of the bad ones. This is a ROLE PLAYING game. Your not just rolling dice to get a certain number a certain number of times. Your creating a story.

Speak for yourself. I believe in letting the dice fall where they may. That dosen't mean that I can't make the combats filled with extreme gore, detailed organ damage descriptions, and sadistic humor, though. Note how in my recent campaigns I've written and posted here I have a "hidden" karma bonus for anyone who screams GET SOME GET SOME GET SOME and massacres a large group of NPCs.

Posted by: Drraagh Jun 23 2006, 06:14 AM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jun 21 2006, 05:07 AM)

Its better to praise good roleplayers than make fun of the bad ones. This is a ROLE PLAYING game. Your not just rolling dice to get a certain number a certain number of times. Your creating a story.

Letting the dice fall where they may is one thing. Like if someone was to, as one of the C.L.U.E. files had, rolling 28 1s I think it was for a fireball spell and ending up as a mushroom cloud of human material scatering over the combat area.

However, if the guy came up with some good description or a great plan, giving them a bonus is how some people do it to promote having fun and being creative. My GM gave some bonus karma for line/event of the game, for example.

If I were to do a 28 die fireball spell, I could see describing it as something like this just for comedic value (assuming a success, not a failure) as a way to make it be more interesting in a TT game and maybe get a bonus. Online, well, I'd just do that to get a laugh, though some GMs might come up with a bonus of sorts.

"As the creatures start to gather around, I clench my fists and steel my gaze on my target in front of me. Anyone looking in my eyes might catch little hints of fire flecking inside of them. Muscles tensing in my legs, I stretch to a few inches taller, shoulders locking in place. A hand raises to my mouth, covering it before fanning outward, flames starting to come from it towards the creatures in front of me. As it passes, I cough and shake my head, patting my chest before offering 'That's a spicy meatball.'"

Of course, that could just be me suffering from lack of sleep, and lack of fun, here at work.

Posted by: SL James Jun 23 2006, 06:42 AM

QUOTE (Drraagh)

Did that include karma rerolls? Because if it did, then clearly God had a mad hard-on to kill that PC DEAD DEAD DEAD.

Posted by: Drraagh Jun 23 2006, 07:47 AM

QUOTE (SL James)

Did that include karma rerolls? Because if it did, then clearly God had a mad hard-on to kill that PC DEAD DEAD DEAD.

Doesn't look like it included Karma rerolls, but if he was like any munchkinly player I know, he'd try and use his karma as extra dice, thus not having any left to use to reroll, or even to burn to negate an oops.

http://archive.dumpshock.com/CLUE/ShowCLUE.php3?page=casefile25.htm

Posted by: SL James Jun 23 2006, 04:24 PM

When did munchkin become a euphemism for idiot? That's just retarded.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 23 2006, 05:15 PM

I would not call it idiocy to not think to have botch-negating karma on-hand when one is rolling 28 dice.

Though I will note that you can't reroll rule-of-1s, just buy away the worst effects.

~J

Posted by: Lindt Jun 23 2006, 06:50 PM

But lets face it, you just tosses 28 ones. Fate is saying loud and clear, "F you buddie!"

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jun 23 2006, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (SL James)

When did munchkin become a euphemism for idiot? That's just retarded.

It has been for awhile. For the non-idiotic version of munchkin just use min-maxer.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 23 2006, 10:15 PM

QUOTE (Lindt)

But lets face it, you just tosses 28 ones. Fate is saying loud and clear, "F you buddie!"

Odds of that happening are 1:6140942214464815497216. Saving Karma in case you need to reroll against a one in 600 quintillion chance hardly qualifies as idiocy

Posted by: mfb Jun 23 2006, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

I would not call it idiocy to not think to have botch-negating karma on-hand when one is rolling 28 dice.

i think he was referring to the fact that it would be dumb to blow all your karma on extra dice, when the same amount of karma can be used on rerolls for an effective greater increase in the number of dice you're getting on the test.

Posted by: SL James Jun 23 2006, 11:56 PM

Like mfb said. It's not in the event of getting 28 1's (which is 6.14 sextillion). It's getting a bunch of 3's, 2's and 1's when the TN is 4, and rerolling them to get more 4's, 5's, 11's and 26's. Because, let's face it. Unless you're trying to kill a Great Dragon, 15 or so successes on a high force Fireball will kill just about anyone, and without the embarassment of pulling off quite possibly the most statistically remarkable event in gaming.

And so... The player was an idiot.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 23 2006, 11:59 PM

This is tru7h.

~J

Posted by: SL James Jun 24 2006, 12:00 AM

Of course it is. I'm always right. Even when I'm wrong.

Posted by: emo samurai Jun 24 2006, 12:12 AM

That is probably the only post that I have not had to lay the smackdown hammer of cyber-justice on. You're getting better.

Posted by: SL James Jun 24 2006, 04:49 AM

I'm beginning to appreciate the idea that the Fanpro devs moved to Attribute+Skill vs Fixed TN and replaced Karma Pool with Edge because too many SR players and prospective players are too stupid to comprehend traditional dice pools (e.g., Karma, Combat, Task).

This thread has proven that, in fact, they are.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 24 2006, 05:35 AM

QUOTE (SL James)

How, exactly? If you're talking the CLUE anecdote, the simplest explanation is just that the mage had no karma left at that time. The kinds of runs that demand 28-dice Fireballs usually involve karma expenditure previously.

~J