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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ New to the boards - some questions
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 20 2006, 09:10 PM
Hello everyone, I'm a long time lurker and this is my first post.
I played a little bit of SR3 years ago, though it was heavily houseruled and dumbed down mechanically. Still, I had a lot of fun playing it and I love the SR background. Just recently my friends and I decided to start playing Shadowrun again and since SR4 just came out, we figured now would be the perfect time to get back into it. My group has been playing other RPGs for 8 years or so (L5R/DnD/SR3). I am GMing, and this will be my first time GMing an actual campaign. I'm using the On the Run module to get us started, and it's worked well so far. There is, however, a couple of problems.
My group built a well balanced team with one hacker/rigger, mage, face, sammy, and combat adept. The hacker/rigger and mage are the most experienced with SR3 and they own their own SR4 book (for 3 total with mine).
The team's hacker/rigger is still in the old mindset where he sits in the van out of danger. When I read the SR4 book, I was under the impression that the game was trying to break that concept. Is it something I should try to discourage, or is it normal in your games also? I've talked to the other players and they don't care either way that their PCs are risking their lives while he's sitting in the van.
The other problem is that the team is looting everything after they win fights. I don't have a problem with the extra nuyen they're getting. They're just being very careless about what they do with the loot. They haven't caught on to the fact that it's very cheap, easy, and smart to track weapons and gear with RFIDs. I've tried to hint this to them since they're new. Should I be more direct? Should I up the consequences?
Thanks for your help!
[edit]Added spoiler tags, sorry
[/edit]
Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 09:17 PM
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon) |
| The other problem is that the team is looting everything after they win fights. I don't have a problem with the extra nuyen they're getting. They're just being very careless about what they do with the loot. They haven't caught on to the fact that it's very cheap, easy, and smart to track weapons and gear with RFIDs. I've tried to hint this to them since they're new. Should I be more direct? Should I up the consequences? Thanks for your help! |
If you haven't yet, the first thing to do is either to have their fence refuse to buy the goods because they're too traceable, or to lowball the price he's willing to pay because of the effort he's going to have to go to in removing all of the tracking devices. Oh, or he could bitch them out for bringing stolen goods with live tracers into his place of business, potentially fingering him to the corp they took the stuff from
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 20 2006, 09:23 PM
Today's weapons are generally distinguished with the boring, letting police track bullets fired to specific guns. SR weapons would have the same, but also with RFID tags in the guns themselves. More extreme governments may even require RFIDs in bullets.
An interesting gun law might be to require all bullets have RFID tags, and all guns be capable of giving their ID to those tags as they're being loaded or fired. Then every bullet would have an electronic data trail to the gun that fired it. It wouldn't work because peole would hack their guns, but if the guns were also made so they wouldn't fire a bullet that couldn't be tagged it would at least make things annoying for runners.
Posted by: Jaid Jun 20 2006, 09:38 PM
1) you might want to put them spoilers in spoiler tags 
for your reference, take the text you want in the spoiler, and at the start type <spoiler> and at the end type </spoiler> except instead of <> use [].
2) iirc, there is a hacker-in-a-van in one of the pieces of SR fiction in the core rule book. i would say that they aren't trying to get rid of deckers/riggers who stay away from danger, so much as they are trying to make it feasible for those deckers/riggers to be with the group without getting killed.
it should be noted that, even in earlier editions, there would be times you had to hack in from the inside. having to occasionally bring your decker with you into a building was not unheard of.
Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 20 2006, 09:38 PM
| QUOTE |
| The team's hacker/rigger is still in the old mindset where he sits in the van out of danger. When I read the SR4 book, I was under the impression that the game was trying to break that concept. Is it something I should try to discourage, or is it normal in your games also? I've talked to the other players and they don't care either way that their PCs are risking their lives while he's sitting in the van. |
If they players don't care, that's good. If you care, though, then yea, get him out there.
Also, Riggers still need to remember signal ratings. Not too much to worry about in a small area, but you can make them sweat if they lose contact of a drone because it wandered out of range, by command, or something else.
I was talking to someone who thought it would be fun to have drone wheelchairs for the riggers and hackers of the team. They can operate them, go with the team, maybe even have a gun mounted. Plus, if they go full VR, then their limp body can stay mobile, even if the same has to push him around. Be a funny sight, though. Or a good idea for a parapalegic rigger/hacker.
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 20 2006, 09:44 PM
| QUOTE |
| If you haven't yet, the first thing to do is either to have their fence refuse to buy the goods because they're too traceable, or to lowball the price he's willing to pay because of the effort he's going to have to go to in removing all of the tracking devices. Oh, or he could bitch them out for bringing stolen goods with live tracers into his place of business, potentially fingering him to the corp they took the stuff from |
They haven't tried to sell anything yet. They're carrying it around in the van
Posted by: Shadowmeet Jun 20 2006, 09:47 PM
You could do the Snitch thing. Someone heard something, and passed the word along to their fixer. For 2K nuyen, he'll tell the Runners who betrayed them/how they were followed.
Let it get garbled, and let them think someone they know might be a traitor. Then the meet comes, after the exchange, let him spill the beans about the tags. Might wake them up. They lost some cash to learn a lesson.
Posted by: Nim Jun 20 2006, 09:51 PM
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon) |
| The team's hacker/rigger is still in the old mindset where he sits in the van out of danger. When I read the SR4 book, I was under the impression that the game was trying to break that concept. Is it something I should try to discourage, or is it normal in your games also? |
The first encounter with a facility that makes heavy use of signal-blocking paint ought to cure him of that habit....
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 20 2006, 09:53 PM
| QUOTE (Shadowmeet) |
| You could do the Snitch thing. Someone heard something, and passed the word along to their fixer. For 2K nuyen, he'll tell the Runners who betrayed them/how they were followed. Let it get garbled, and let them think someone they know might be a traitor. Then the meet comes, after the exchange, let him spill the beans about the tags. Might wake them up. They lost some cash to learn a lesson. |
Ohhh that's a good idea, thanks.
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 20 2006, 09:53 PM
| QUOTE (Nim) | ||
The first encounter with a facility that makes heavy use of signal-blocking paint ought to cure him of that habit.... |
You guys are awesome.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 21 2006, 12:39 AM
| QUOTE (Shadowmeet) |
| I was talking to someone who thought it would be fun to have drone wheelchairs for the riggers and hackers of the team. They can operate them, go with the team, maybe even have a gun mounted. Plus, if they go full VR, then their limp body can stay mobile, even if the same has to push him around. Be a funny sight, though. Or a good idea for a parapalegic rigger/hacker. |
The only problem is that riggers use their RL Attributes when rigging. your parapalegic couldn't perform skills/actions requiring physical ATTs. according to the rules that is... I think it's retarded personally (the rules, not your idea!)
Posted by: Derek Jun 21 2006, 03:06 AM
Two things:
1. The rigger; if the other characters are fine with it (notice, characters, not players), then there should be no reason why you should want him out of the van. The game is, after all, for both your AND the players enjoyment, not just one or the other, and it is not a competition between GM's to see how many runners you can kill. Now, there are some real-2070-reasons why he shouldn't remain outside all the time, wi-fi blocking paint being one of them.
2. RFID's in the guns. You have to assume a certain level of knowledge on the characters part. After all, the characters grew up in the 2050/2060/2070's, and have a basic level of knowledge of the world that the players might not. In other words, the characters sure as heck know that there are RFID tags in everything, including the stolen guns, and that those RFID tags can be tracked. However, the players, being unfamiliar with the 2070 world might not know this. So, give them the benefit of the doubt, have a talk with them about RFIDs and how they apply in 2070, and mention that everything can be tracked. Do this once. If they don't change how they do things, then it is their own fault, and they can't plead ignorance.
Dave
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 03:09 AM
| QUOTE |
| The game is, after all, for both your AND the players enjoyment, not just one or the other |
That is very true. If the rigger hiding in the van all the time is unfun for the GM, then in order for everyone to have fun, that rigger must come out every so often.
You can't please everybody at the table at once (in most groups). You take shifts: the guy playing the face gets to shine during negotiations and legwork. The mage shines scouting up to the line where the wards are. The infiltrator shines using that knowledge to scout farther, all while the decker shines by pointing electronic eyes elsewhere and the GM shines by erecting a challenging and mutually enjoyable encounter for the group.
Posted by: Derek Jun 21 2006, 03:11 AM
Well, yes, true. Both the players and the GM.
This is why I wouldn't force the character to come out the van permanently, or even on a regular basis. But I would occasionally do it, if the plot calls for it, or the circumstances do.
Dave
Posted by: CrimsonHawk Jun 21 2006, 04:27 AM
well in my game the GM kind of took a zig when we zaged.
He revamped the matrix, stating that using a commlink during a run violates wifi silence, so operating any drones ( my toon is a Drone rigger) is putting out to much wifi and I would be tracked and taged in a heartbeat via spiders so every run were destroying commlinks and rebuying new clean ones long with buying programs every run or so since when a hacker or droner uses them the companys RD countermeasures drops the level of them by 1, so I'm putting out about 80,000 to 140,000 per month keeping up, the GM dropped the prices some so its down to 50,000 to 80,000 a month depending on what I can reconfiger (reprogram) in down time since were only doing one mish a month averaging about 10,000 to 25,000 and I'm with the rest of the group almost dieing every run.
now if I wanted to hack a car for instance, there are sats taking pictures of the area via the insurance peeps and the car automatically is noticed if moved via the sats or it yelling to the surrounding nodes that I'm being moved without my permeation by my user via the rfid (stealth) tags
so rule of thumb don't take anything you cant use like ( communits, exec..) everything is taged, buged, or being watched
so my poor droner is kind of slapped into a secondary position as backup sam, and I'm hating life since the way to communicate we need to communicate now is via laser link, or I'm running fiberoptic all over the place for my drones (FEAR THE SPIDERS THEY BITE)
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 21 2006, 05:24 AM
| QUOTE (Derek) |
| Two things: 1. The rigger; if the other characters are fine with it (notice, characters, not players), then there should be no reason why you should want him out of the van. The game is, after all, for both your AND the players enjoyment, not just one or the other, and it is not a competition between GM's to see how many runners you can kill. Now, there are some real-2070-reasons why he shouldn't remain outside all the time, wi-fi blocking paint being one of them. 2. RFID's in the guns. You have to assume a certain level of knowledge on the characters part. After all, the characters grew up in the 2050/2060/2070's, and have a basic level of knowledge of the world that the players might not. In other words, the characters sure as heck know that there are RFID tags in everything, including the stolen guns, and that those RFID tags can be tracked. However, the players, being unfamiliar with the 2070 world might not know this. So, give them the benefit of the doubt, have a talk with them about RFIDs and how they apply in 2070, and mention that everything can be tracked. Do this once. If they don't change how they do things, then it is their own fault, and they can't plead ignorance. Dave |
1. My main problem with it is that it limits the strength of encounters I can throw at them. If he went into danger, that would be another 10+ condition boxes to target instead of just the other 4 runners and one drone, and another gun. The team would be less fragile and have more offence. I WANT them to live, and I don't want to pull my punches when I challenge them. To a lessor extent, when I GM I'm vicariously playing a Shadowrunner career, and if I were on that team I wouldn't tolerate someone sitting in the van when I'm putting my life on the line.
2. Yea, I considered that. But the thing is, tracking devices aren't a new technology. It's around today, and it's been around since the microchip was invented. Plus, two of them own the book. They've had more than a month to read about RFIDs. I've even told them that there's one very important thing they're forgetting that's getting them in trouble, and that the answer is in the book. I think I'm going to be using Shadowmeet's idea.
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 21 2006, 05:31 AM
CrimsonHawk, why don't you just use spoof and encrypt?
Posted by: CrimsonHawk Jun 21 2006, 06:49 AM
CrimsonHawk, why don't you just use spoof and encrypt?
LOL thats with level 6 enycrpt and codeslinging in ecm /eccm it breaks the silence and as soon as my ID hits the wifi I'm meat ready to be killed by the spiders. and the spoof command is AR from what I have been told and it takes a Day to hack that way but I could get into drones with it and shut them down if that what your asking but not take them over.
but thank you for your input =)
Posted by: Ryu Jun 21 2006, 07:55 AM
Concerning offensive capabilities of the team, a rigger safe in his van is certainly not a bad idea. As was said already, his life is not on the line. Just a few drones. If he is a dedicated decker, his worth in a firefight is questionable anyway.
If you donīt want him sitting outside all the time, you have several options.
- block communications (passive via the aforementioned blocking paint, active via jammer)
- attack the van (trace the datatrail, make building security check vehicles parked outside for living bodies)
- trace the van (stealing all vehicles needed for a run should always be considered. Disadvantage: no armor, no weapons, no drone-ports).
- build cokepoints that can only be passed by onsite deckers (WiFi-blocked area around a door with high-level maglock)
Matrix security should nearly always include use of security deckers, as they can easily monitor a dozen sites at once. Under those circumstances going onsite and just hacking single devices instead of the security server might be desireable.
Posted by: Jaid Jun 21 2006, 03:46 PM
| QUOTE (CrimsonHawk) |
| CrimsonHawk, why don't you just use spoof and encrypt? LOL thats with level 6 enycrpt and codeslinging in ecm /eccm it breaks the silence and as soon as my ID hits the wifi I'm meat ready to be killed by the spiders. and the spoof command is AR from what I have been told and it takes a Day to hack that way but I could get into drones with it and shut them down if that what your asking but not take them over. but thank you for your input =) of course, if all else fails, then just ride a doberman into battle i guess lol =P |
no silly, not spoof the drones, spoof your datatrail.
ie, instead of physically changing your commlink, you should just spoof it. or, if you prefer, you can go in and muck around with the actual commlink, and change it using the hardware skill.
either way, you don't need to dispose of the old commlink. and you should certainly be able to keep the old programs... so why is it costing you so much? even a top end commlink should only cost you maybe 10k... which is still a lot, especially as an expense per run, but still not all that bad.
anyways, i think you are badly misunderstanding how spoof can be used... but anyways... that's something i'll let you reread the book for =P
Posted by: shadowbod Jun 21 2006, 04:41 PM
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| 1) you might want to put them spoilers in spoiler tags for your reference, take the text you want in the spoiler, and at the start type <spoiler> and at the end type </spoiler> except instead of <> use []. |
@Shadowdragon...
Please edit your original post and put the 'On the Run' spoilers in spoiler quotes as suggested by Jaid (above). My players are about to play this and they lurk on this site. You've kinda spoiled the ending without warning anyone that you are going to do so.
Thanks in advance of your editing.
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 21 2006, 06:29 PM
| QUOTE |
| either way, you don't need to dispose of the old commlink. and you should certainly be able to keep the old programs... so why is it costing you so much? even a top end commlink should only cost you maybe 10k... which is still a lot, especially as an expense per run, but still not all that bad. |
CrimsonHawk, does your GM not allow you to use the software skill to duplicate programs? Check page 228.
Shadowbod, I added the spoiler tags. Sorry about that.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 21 2006, 07:20 PM
Jeez, CrimsonHawk... sounds like the GM is really making your life hard.
Programs are priced under the assumption that they not only do not degrade, but your average PC will be hacking them and making multiple copies of them for various uses. If he's going to have you buying new copies of these programs all the time, he needs to drop the cost to 10% or less of the listed cost.
Posted by: shadowbod Jun 21 2006, 09:28 PM
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon) |
| Shadowbod, I added the spoiler tags. Sorry about that. |
Thanks, hope I didn't come off as being bossy - just trying to save my game's dramatic ending
Re your man in van... If the player somehow manages to enjoy having his character missing out on a lot of fun, fair play to him/her, but you could mention to the player out-of-game that the hacker is a bit more flexible in SR4 - maybe even let them tweek their character a little to get some active skills?
Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 21 2006, 09:38 PM
ShadowDragon
Remember the max range for controlling the drones effectively is baised on the lesser of the two signal Strengths between the Drone and The Controlling Comm-Link. Otherwise the Rigger (assuming that his Com sig is higher than the drones.) May only send commands, but really get no feedback on Drone location, condition, and facing. If he does send decide to run blind then the drone definatly needs to recognize the teams coms (Friend & Foe reconition protocals) or risk shooting allies.
CrimsonHawk.
Not sure I would want to play a Hacker or Rigger under those game conditions.
According to the rules you can Change your Com-link's acess ID with either the Hacking+Spoof(2) or Hardware+Logic(2).
Besisdes unless the run is in a WiFi dead zone picking out your signal from the Hundreds of others is going to be difficult. And that is for a secure site. In an outside area or one that is not shielded there will be Millions of Signals.
Posted by: ShadowDragon Jun 21 2006, 09:41 PM
| QUOTE (shadowbod @ Jun 21 2006, 04:28 PM) | ||
Thanks, hope I didn't come off as being bossy - just trying to save my game's dramatic ending Re your man in van... If the player somehow manages to enjoy having his character missing out on a lot of fun, fair play to him/her, but you could mention to the player out-of-game that the hacker is a bit more flexible in SR4 - maybe even let them tweek their character a little to get some active skills? |
No worries. I should've done it sooner.
I'm letting all of the players do a one time character rewrite after the first mission is over, since they didn't really know how the game worked before (and neither did I to a lesser degree). I'll make some suggestions then.
Posted by: Abbandon Jun 21 2006, 10:18 PM
I think you need to sit down with your players ooc and have a chat about stealing stuff. Let both sides give thier points of view and if you cant reach a common understand then explain the consequences of such actions, such as losing hideouts, vehicles, nuyen, weapons, removal of cyber because of being caught by overwhelming force such as strike teams or police.
Posted by: CrimsonHawk Jun 22 2006, 12:47 AM
CrimsonHawk.
Not sure I would want to play a Hacker or Rigger under those game conditions.
According to the rules you can Change your Com-link's acess ID with either the Hacking+Spoof(2) or Hardware+Logic(2).
Besisdes unless the run is in a WiFi dead zone picking out your signal from the Hundreds of others is going to be difficult. And that is for a secure site. In an outside area or one that is not shielded there will be Millions of Signals.
Jeez, CrimsonHawk... sounds like the GM is really making your life hard.
Programs are priced under the assumption that they not only do not degrade, but your average PC will be hacking them and making multiple copies of them for various uses. If he's going to have you buying new copies of these programs all the time, he needs to drop the cost to 10% or less of the listed cost.
CrimsonHawk, does your GM not allow you to use the software skill to duplicate programs? Check page 228.
no silly, not spoof the drones, spoof your datatrail.
ie, instead of physically changing your commlink, you should just spoof it. or, if you prefer, you can go in and muck around with the actual commlink, and change it using the hardware skill.
either way, you don't need to dispose of the old commlink. and you should certainly be able to keep the old programs... so why is it costing you so much? even a top end commlink should only cost you maybe 10k... which is still a lot, especially as an expense per run, but still not all that bad.
anyways, i think you are badly misunderstanding how spoof can be used... but anyways... that's something i'll let you reread the book for =P
okes I understand spoof now I think just have to get my GM to understand its not a permeant chip on the motherboard (ie mac address) of the communit I was thinking since drones are nodes /communits also that I had to change them all the time.
well his thought of program degrade is from RL (Real Life) for instance virus scanners you don't just buy one and run it forever it has to constanly update and reinvent it self otherwise the virus would have a hay day on your computer
so I have to constanly keep buying /reprograming programs (most of them) to keep on the Bleeding edge of tech 
which puts me into debt in a mega hurry
the funny way we have to communicate now is either via skinlink (touch) or via laser to not be overheard or traced in a heartbeat, I don't know I'm thinking of seriously just retiring the toon and leave the game, I'm so board some nights I'm reading a paperback book
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