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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Negative Quality-Phobias?

Posted by: Derek Jun 21 2006, 02:34 AM

So, I don't see phobias listed anywhere under negative qualities. So, would it be fair to use the same costs as allergies, and more or less the same penalties?

For example, a mild phobia of sunlight (common, mild). Character suffers a -2 dice pool when in sunlight, and tries to avoid sunlight as much as possible.

Now, assuming this works, and that phobias should cost about the same as allergies, would you rate, for a full magician, astral projection as common, or uncommon?

My opinion is that for a full mage, astral projection is one of the more important aspects of his powers, and thus it would be common. I can't really see it being uncommon for a full mage, when the things listed as uncommon include silver, gold, and seawater in a landlocked city (Denver).

Make sense?

Dave

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 02:41 AM

Definitely common. I'm not sure I'd allow it though, as it isn't something you can spring on him. Phobias should be a GM tool to be pulled out to make things more challenging. Without some extreme circumstances it's pretty hard to force someone to astrally project.

Posted by: Derek Jun 21 2006, 03:09 AM

Well, no, you can't force him to astrally project (actually you can, in a number of ways, including drugs, being forced into the astral ala Harlequin's Back, etc...) but it is a major component of being a mage, and is pretty crippling if a mage suffers penalties everytime he does project.

Now, here's one to add on top of it: a mild addiction to Deepweed. The only way the mage can bring himself to astrally project is to take Deepweed, which he does twice a week, on average. The deepweed doesn't negate the penalties, but it does allow him to overcome his fear, and project in the first place, still with the -2 dice penalty while projecting.

Just wondering if this makes sense, or is needless rules-mongering for build points.

Dave

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 03:18 AM

It should be worth less than 5 points, as you could save 5 points by being a mystic adept and not being physically able to astrally project. Taking a phobia still leaves you apable of doing it, albeit with penalties. I'd say 1-2 points, tops.

According to the rules (or at least my interpretation) astral projection is worth less than 5BP on it's own because mystic adepts lose 5BP and it, but gain the ability to get adept powers. So unless the ability to gain adept powers is worthless, 5BP is too much.

I'm starting to get fuzzy headed from sleepiness, so if that didn't make sense let me know and I'll try to rephrase tomorrow.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jun 21 2006, 04:01 AM

...I've actually thought about structuring them this way as well. Phobias can be an interesting facet to the game (provided they're not over the top silly ones). Once had a decker character with a moderate phobia of crawling bugs, this could be particularly bad in certain sculpted systems.

A few Phobias that I would consider allowing include:

Enclosed spaces
Crowds
Open Spaces
Open Water
Night/Darkness
Animal/Paracritter (by type)
Heights
Magic
Loud Noise
Insects/Arachnids
Contamination
Fire

Posted by: Rock Jun 21 2006, 04:19 AM

How would you treat someone who develops a new phobia during the course of a campaign? Such as a runner who battles bug spirits and then suddenly can't cope with seeing a cockroach on his floor?

Posted by: Jaid Jun 21 2006, 04:49 AM

simple, if they roleplay well, they get bonus karma.

it should be noticed that you may want to talk with the runner before saddling them with a disadvantage they couldn't avoid, though. i mean, if they burn karma to escape certain death or something, then yeah give them a negative quality, and if they use combat drugs constantly, then sure give them addiction...

but fighting bug spirits alone shouldn't be enough, IMO. almost becoming a host or something, otoh...

(basically, if a character is going to get a negative quality, it should be either something they brought on themselves, could have avoided, or agree to have added on, IMO).

but yeah, like i said... give out bonus karma for good RP effort.

Posted by: Derek Jun 21 2006, 12:28 PM

QUOTE (James McMurray)

On the other hand, you could look at it as it costs the Mystic Adept 10 points (1 magic point) to gain the ability to astrally percieve, and they'll never be able to project, so the cost of losing that ability is infinite...

Of course, if you say astral projection is worth less than 5 points, why not let the mysitc adept buy astral projection for half a magic point? It doesn't really work, though, since the cost for mages compared to build points for other things is a bit wonky.

I don't really think you should play a numbers game quite like that, though, but rather look at it more like, is this in line with all the other negative qualities cost, and I would say, probably yes.

In the example, something common is a mild allergy to sunlight (mild, common), which means the runner gets -2 dice when in sunlight. If you extrapolate this to a phobia, and apply the same mechanics, you would get the same thing, a mild, common phobia of sunlight, mechaincs wise, -2 dice while in sunlight, and roleplaying wise, a fear of the sun, worth the same as the allergy, -10 BP. This causes difficulties to a major part of the runners life.

Ok, then, what about astral projection? Well, an integral part of being a mage is astral projection. You always count on the mage to do astral scouting, and maybe astral overwatch, or if at least not always, it's an often advertised power of mages that tremendously increases their versatility. So, if you take it away, what is it worth, compared to the other -10 BP negative qualities? I would say it is actually worth more than some -10 BP qualities, and probably not as limiting as some others.

But thats just my interpretation.

Dave

Posted by: Derek Jun 21 2006, 12:29 PM

QUOTE (stevenrockwell)

How would you treat someone who develops a new phobia during the course of a campaign? Such as a runner who battles bug spirits and then suddenly can't cope with seeing a cockroach on his floor?

Like Jaid said, negative qualities developed in game are not wirth extra build points, but probably worth a couple of extra karma here and there, depending on how well role-played they are, and how much they affect the character.

Dave

Posted by: Xenith Jun 21 2006, 08:09 PM

I think a phobia would kinda work like this;

Phobia
Bonus: 5 to 20 BP
A character with the Phobia quality is psychologically tormented by both interaction with and fear of a type of person (race, gender, ethnicity, age, or group), a general kind of place, a general situation, animal, or object. First, determine wether the subject of the phobia is Uncommon (2 bp) or Common (7 bp). Then determine the severity of the symptoms: Mild (3 bp), Moderate (8 BP), or Severe (13 bp). Add the appropriate point values to find the final value. For example, the value of a Common Moderate Phobia is 15 (7+8 ) build points.
The Phobia table gives descriptions of conditions and severity.

Phobia Table

Condition____Value_Description
Uncommon____2___The condition or subject is rare for the local envirnoment. Examples:
_________________Dragons, Vampires, Heights in a flatland or plains setting (such as
_________________Kansas.)
Common______7___The condition or subject is common for the local envirnoment.
_________________Examples: Rats, Uncleanliness, Darkness.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mild__________3___Symptoms are discomforting and distracting. Apply a -2 dice
_________________pool modifier to all tests made while a character experiences
_________________symptoms.
Moderate_____8____Exposure to the condition or subject invokes a fight or flight
_________________reaction in addition to the panic. Apply a -4 dice pool modifier to
_________________tests made while a character experiences symptoms. Also, the
_________________character must make a Willpower(1) test to avoid either fleeing
_________________in total panic or destroying the source of her discomfort. If
_________________unable to do either, the character becomes incapacitated.
_________________After 5 rounds of either reaction, the character may make a
_________________Composure (2) Test per round to return to her normal behavior.
Severe______13___Exposure to the condition or subject invokes a fight or flight
_________________reaction in addition to the panic. Apply a -4 dice pool modifier to
_________________tests made while a character experiences symptoms. Also, the
_________________character must make a Willpower(3) test to avoid either fleeing
_________________in total panic or destroying the source of her discomfort. If
_________________unable to do either, the character becomes incapacitated.
_________________The character either flees as far as the GM deems reasonable,
_________________or fights to the death.

Think that works well enough?

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 08:11 PM

I can understand the desire not to play the numbers game. LEt;s just agree to do it differently in our groups.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 21 2006, 09:37 PM

I have opted to not make phobias worth points, in fact the elimination of a huge number of edges and flaws in 4th edition was in my opinion a very good thing and the fact that there weren't 6 pages each of positive and negative qualities a step in the right direction of reclaiming the the game from ramapnt munchkinism and powergaming. I would leave phobias as a character development issue worth no points, so they would only pop up if they really were integral to the character

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 21 2006, 09:54 PM

But they left in several Negative qualities that can easily be munchined.
And took out some that help to fill out character concept.

Xenith's Phobia looks good to me.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 21 2006, 10:33 PM

The point is that you can still have your character be deathly afarid of something without having point values and mechanics attached. I have pretty much been against edges and flaws ever since they we're introduced in the SR(2) Companion almost a decade ago. Unfortunately my players thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread and fire and went bonkers with them and then complained when I made their characters almost completely dysfunctional in actual game play. They toned it down eventually, but in general my opion tends towards there are still too many. Since our group shares GM duties it is a bit difficult to mandate GM approval and solve this problem, if the player doesn't like one GM's take there is the opportunity to go to another GM to get the character approved.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 21 2006, 10:58 PM

Some players need flaws in order to give their characters negative qualities. Others don't, they like to play imperfect beings. IMO flaws and edges aren't really necessary. Edges are better than flaws, since they cost BP instead of giving them. I really like the way nWoD handles flaws: you get nothing for them at character creation, but do gain extra XP every time the flaw comes up in play and harms you. There's no such thing as a freebie in that setup.

Posted by: Xenith Jun 22 2006, 12:13 AM

You have your style, I have mine. *shrugs*

Anyway, wasn't this subject about how the quality would work rather than bashing Edges/Flaws? You made your point... Nice points. I like to reward players for roleplaying, too, but I like edges and flaws. This isn't nWoD (much as I enjoy that system ) Can we move on now?

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 01:01 AM

Sure. Not that I ever said this was nWoD.

I've already made my comments on the primary topic, and since threads rarely survive multiple derailings on DS, I went with the flow.

Edit: Or was that not directed wholly at me? The "you have your style I have mine" seems to indicate that we were in opposition, but I never actually replied to you specifically. I'm probably misunderstanding something though. It wouldn't be the first time.

Posted by: Xenith Jun 22 2006, 01:13 AM

In general, and this is not the first time somenoe thought I was being specific to them, when I say you and not say a name I mean those that find Edge/Flaws to be a waste of time or solely a munchkins tool.

Disclaimer: all words contained within Xenith's post are meant to insult, dismiss, and/or derive in a small, inpersonal way, unless specifically stated otherwise. Side effects may include dementia, catatonia, anal leakage, and/or cervical cancer.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 01:38 AM

Ah, since I'm in neither of those categories it's cool. And I even get to avoid cervical cancer (at least this time).

Posted by: Derek Jun 22 2006, 01:52 AM

Xenith

I like the description. It's pretty damn close to allergies, but has the things needed for phobias. Perfect.

QUOTE

Some players need flaws in order to give their characters negative qualities.

QUOTE

The point is that you can still have your character be deathly afarid of something without having point values and mechanics attached.

Both of the above statements are true. However, I've found, in way too many years of gaming, that if you provide a benefit for someone taking a negative quality, they will more likely take a couple of those, thus making for a more interesting character, with more hooks, which then follows that the game can be more interesting.

Sure, some people will do it without the benefit of extra BP's/karma/pats on the back, but many won't.

Anyways, you're right, James, we have different styles. Thats fine, I won't argue it with you.

Dave

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 01:55 AM

NOOO!!! YOU MUST ARGUE!!!

Posted by: NightmareX Jun 22 2006, 07:03 AM

QUOTE (Xenith)

I think a phobia would kinda work like this;

Mind if I snag this for our house rules Xenith?

Posted by: Glyph Jun 22 2006, 08:02 AM

I like the idea of using the allergy rules as a basis for similar phobia rules (which is about how it was in SR3, too). I don't think a phobia of astral projection would be quite the same, though, since all a mage needs to do to avoid it is not project.

I would probably just give it a straight 5 points, and the same general effect as simsense vertigo for a decker (deckers get 10 points, but that is for a flaw affecting their main function. A mage who can't astrally project can still use spellcasting, assensing, ritual sorcery, counterspelling, summoning, banishing, binding, foci, etc.).

Posted by: Derek Jun 22 2006, 12:33 PM

QUOTE (Glyph)

I would probably just give it a straight 5 points, and the same general effect as simsense vertigo for a decker (deckers get 10 points, but that is for a flaw affecting their main function. A mage who can't astrally project can still use spellcasting, assensing, ritual sorcery, counterspelling, summoning, banishing, binding, foci, etc.).

True.

On the other hand, (and there always is an other hand), it doesn't cost the decker anything to be a decker. I mean, aside from the skills attributes and gear. Conversely, it coests the mage 15 BP, plus an extra attribute (Magic) to be a decker.

I think, like many things, it comes down to GM and player agreement. This is almost always the answer, anyways, even if the RAW say something else.

Thanks everyone for the help; I've more clearly crystallized in my mind what I am thinking. Thanks especially to Xenith for taking the allergy rules and tailoring them for phobias.

Dave

Posted by: Akimbo Jun 22 2006, 08:59 PM

We considered phobias in our campaign. A few players were making new characters and I gave them some options for traits. However, I find phobia to be one of the top ways to get free build points.

Do you know how many of my players took a fear of grapefruit? Grapefruit launchers tend to be a lot more common in my game now.

Posted by: James McMurray Jun 22 2006, 09:01 PM

Grapefruit make excellent missile weapons. They're not hard enough to do physical damage. They're environmentally friendly (biodegradable, and may even feed the wildlife in the proper areas. They're fairly cheap if you have access to a grapefruit farm. You can hit a guy in the eyes with the juice and ruin his day without much risk of permanent damage. In extremely dire situations you can survive by eating your ammunition.

I'm surprised there aren't more grapefruit launchers in use today.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 22 2006, 09:24 PM

Pumpkins too.....

http://www.punkinchunkin.com/

Posted by: Xenith Jun 22 2006, 10:30 PM

If a GM allows a phobia of grapefruit, thats not a very good GM. On the other hand if you're going for a SR parody, then have at it.

Posted by: Derek Jun 23 2006, 12:25 AM

QUOTE (Akimbo)

Wll, uh..... Thats why everything has to go through the GM for final checking before it is completed. And a fear of grapefruit is a bit different than a fear of astral projection.....

Dave

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 23 2006, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (Xenith)

If a GM allows a phobia of grapefruit, thats not a very good GM. On the other hand if you're going for a SR parody, then have at it.

And their first campaign could be in rural or suburban Texas CAS, protecting a grapefruit farm/small agricorp from repeated attacks and intrigue.

Have them paid in product.

Posted by: Demon_Bob Jun 24 2006, 04:14 AM

QUOTE (Xenith @ Jun 22 2006, 04:30 PM)

If a GM allows a phobia of grapefruit, thats not a very good GM. On the other hand if you're going for a SR parody, then have at it.

Your in a local grocery store. This one must be expensive because it has real non-soy food. The Johnson wanted to meet here and discuss the job on Coms as he shopped.

unfortunately the Krakens, a local gang trying to make a name for themselves followed you here. The same ones one of the characters mouthed off to last week, Shot, and is currently wearing his Cool Jacket.

They just ignore the screaming MAD Scanners as they open fire on you all.

One Ganger lays down suppressive fire, destroying the citrus stand between the groups, juice goes flying everywhere. Some of it is Grapefruit.

Grapefruit Phobia Munchkin is splattered. If it is severe enough phobia he must make a composure test to act. If he can act he must now make another composure test to move from his spot across the grapefuit splattered floor.

Runner with Cool Jacket realizes that anyone with Cool Jacket that is not a Kraken is a prime target. Rips off Cool Jacket and throws it away. In his panic he does not realize that he threw it at Grapefruit phobia guy.

Jacket lands on floor next to grapefruit phobia guy. Grapefruit phobia guy sees a way to get off of Grapefruit covered floor, fails Composure roll.

Nobody asks for silly phobias again.