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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Matrix Questions

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 22 2006, 05:01 AM

This is probably the hardest and most complex part of shadowrun...I dont know what order to ask these in or what so i will just toss them all out there...

#1. A decker/techno is trying to find a node or system of nodes from a coffee shop to do a job(not on site or within signal range). How does he find it? Does he automatically find it ? Does he make a matrix perception test of computer+analyze against a threshold?

If it was within signal range he would do electronic warfare + scan(variable, 1 turn) extended test? Unless it was hidden

#2. Again you have an offsite decker/techno who is trying to turn off the security camera's for his team of runners. Does he make a matrix perception test for that specific node or does he just find the "door" into that system of nodes. Will he get to go right to that node or will he start in one node and have to go through x amount of nodes to get to the security camera node?

Does it make a difference if he is onsite?

I dont see all the different things in a building being wireless. I only see one(or a couple) node that functions as the gateway between the wireless matrix and that system of nodes.

Whats the difference between trying to percieve a node and trying to detect it??

#3. Arent you given two ways to find stuff connected to the matrix. One you can try to detect a node, or you can detect a signal?? Then you could track the signal back to the node??

A rigger has an attack drone in hidden mode waiting to attack anything that triggers it. A decker would either have to find a hidden node with an extended ew+scan test w/ a 15+ threshold or couldnt he just find the signal and find out exactly where the hidden drone is which should be alot easier . A decription test against the signal and if your successfull a ew+sniffer test with threshold of 3.

3 lone stars chase a runner into an alley and lose him. He is extremely dangerous so they let the hacker guy scan for nearby nodes, he finds none(cuz the runner is ghosting). Then he scans for singlas and he finds one and follows it back to a hidden node, he then hacks it and uploads a mp3 file to it and hits play. All of a sudden the 2 other lonestar guys hear the cops theme coming from behind a dumpster, "bad boys bad boys, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when we come for you". A guy jumps out and trys to get away but they tazer his ass and drag him off to jail????

#4 why in the hell would somebody EVER subscribe their cyberlimbs or anything combat related to their commlink??

Uhh thats all i got for now.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 22 2006, 05:15 AM

#1 he would probably do a matrix search for it, kinda like go looking for a website. however, if the gm wants to be bothersome he may declare that the hacker have to hop nodes until he finds the node he is looking for...

#2 it realy depends on the layout and how you read the rules. some read it as each device being a node of its own, while some read it as them being "attached" to the node. on the former you have to hack each camera, on the latter you only have to hack the controling node (alltho that may apply in interpetation 1 allso as there could be a central control app or something that you can play around with).

#3 im not entirely sure where your going with this one...

#4 thats a question that have been asked from day one of SR4. and noone have yet to come up with a good answer...

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 22 2006, 09:30 AM

#2 On my first read through of the rules and from the examples and from what others had said i thought they were trying to make deckers more a part of the team. He would be with the team and when they ran into some obstacle involving a device he would be there to instantly hack it and take it over or disable it.

But now im not so sure. Everytime i think about it i see a system's archetecture being more and more like the old way. A Network encompassing a building would have a gateway node that is its access to the wireless matrix. Then you either have nodes for security camera's maybe one per floor, a node for maglock doors again maybe one per floor, a node for the buildings lighting, a node for the alarms. And they would all be connected to the gateway Node. OR You would have all those nodes but you would be layed out so you had to go through other nodes first ones which are anti hacker nodes.

For example to get to the 5th floor maglocks you would have to hack the gateway, find the building security node, find the maglock node, and then the maglock nodes would be chained together with increasingly stronger IC. In order to get to the 5th floor maglocks you would have to try and get past the first 4 maglock nodes.

#3. I guess im asking if a node is hidden cant you still find it by detecting its signal which would be an easier test than trying to find a hidden node. I didnt really see any rules for hidden signals. They would just be encrypted or something.

Once you have a signal cant you track it back to the hidden node or back to its source like the rigger of a hidden drone.......

Does a commlink in ghost mode send out a signal??

Posted by: Serbitar Jun 22 2006, 09:59 AM

I have some explanaitions for some of the stuff in my http://www.serbitar.de/stuff/SGM.pdf (the signal/hidden mode stuff, hacking camera stuff and so on). Maybe you find that usefull.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 22 2006, 05:24 PM

QUOTE (Abbandon)

QUOTE

by the book, its up to the GM that designs the layout. you can have one node controling the whole building and all its systems, or you can have a node for every lock, lightswitch or anything else.

QUOTE

#3. I guess im asking if a node is hidden cant you still find it by detecting its signal which would be an easier test than trying to find a hidden node. I didnt really see any rules for hidden signals. They would just be encrypted or something.

Once you have a signal cant you track it back to the hidden node or back to its source like the rigger of a hidden drone.......

Does a commlink in ghost mode send out a signal??

ah, your talking about triangulation. however, locking on to the signal of the trasmitter will be no simpler as you have to know you have the right transmitter. and for that you have to sniff the transmissions and look at what accessid and similar thats transmitting.

what makes this hard for a hidden node is that it does not respond to precence requests. ie, your comlink sends out a general request that all nodes within range report their location.

in active mode this will be transmitted anyways so you automaticaly know where all active nodes are. passive nodes only transmitt said data on request. hidden however do not send that data at all. therefor you have to look towards other sources to try and locate it.

and if you have ever tryed to use a real life network traffic sniffer, you will know that the amount of data that gets transmitted is close to staggering. and most likely you have to filter it in real time (or close to it), as a snapshot may pick up comlinks that was just passing by and similar, giving potential for false positives.

you may see it as a active node is a chatty blonde, while a hidden is her gray mouse of a friend. you will notice the blonde the moment you walk in the door, but you may not notice the friend until you bump into her.

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 22 2006, 08:57 PM

Serb you keep giving me that website but i cant view it. It never stops loading.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 22 2006, 10:17 PM

The file he's linking you to is 1.28 megs. If you're on a slow connection, that might take a bit. Right click and save as...

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 22 2006, 10:25 PM

Also make sure that your version of Acrobat Reader is up to date. You might just wanna complete uninstall all instances of Reader and download the newest one from their site.

Posted by: mdynna Jun 22 2006, 10:39 PM

#1 I would have the Hacker do a search. However, that only gets information available on the "public" Matrix. That is not practical or sane for some things like, say, a building's internal security node. Unless the Hacker has prior knowledge of the Node's address, he/she cannot find it. Then the Hacker/TM would have to come within Signal range of the target Node, which means going on-site.

#2 I have the Hacker make a Search test to find the appropriate Node. The only difference for onsite is that the Hacker might be able to hack the device directly. ie. Instead of going through the controlling security node, you can hack the camera/sensor/lock by accessing it directly. This can be trickier but allows you to manipulate things without having to break into the "main" node. However, this means that the device's wireless access must be on, which is GM's discretion. However, given how much wireless tech is supposed to have "permiated" the SR4 world, only the most security-paranoid corps would turn off all of the wireless access.

#3 You can only track a signal back to its node if you find another device that is receiving that signal. Eg. A drone.

#4 You have to subscribe them to your Commlink or else they don't "work." If you have a Smartgun, it must be subscribed to your Commlink in order for you to get the bonuses. Same goes for cyber-eyes with all of their functions.

Cyberware and other devices no longer get to talk to your brain "on their own," they must be routed through a Commlink which acts as a "network hub."

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 23 2006, 01:08 AM

"You HAVE TO subscribe cyberware to your commlink.....etc etc......"

What are you smoking dude?? Do you need a commlink to move your arms or legs now? No because it is recieving input from your brain. The same thing happens with cyberware. If you need concrete proof of this......

sr pg330. In addition to wireless functionality, MOST cybernetic devices are equipped with a DIRECT NUERAL INTERFACE (DNI) that allows the user to metnally activate them and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cybernetic devices.

lmao that would be funny as hell. A cyber zombie runs at you almost faster than you can see and before he cuts your freaking head off and shoves it up your butt you snatch his commlink from him and shut it off and he freezes up unable to do anything lol.

Posted by: Geekkake Jun 23 2006, 01:37 AM

Easy, Abbandon. You're right, but you're also bring a right dick about it, and to someone who's just trying to address your question. Frankly, you don't have the right to be condescending until you can type like an educated person.

Posted by: mdynna Jun 23 2006, 05:49 PM

You misinterpret me Abbandon. The cyberlimbs themselves in their basic functionality work fine, ie. they can move and such. Additional devices installed on them must be routed through your Commlink in order to work. Your Smartgun can only "talk" to your Cybereyes through a Commlink. Any time you have one device sharing information with another they must pass that info through the Commlink.

PS It just won't be Dumpshock without someone running off at the virtual "mouth." I'm used to it. But if you really want someone to attempt to answer your question, try not berate them when they answer.

Posted by: Aaron Jun 23 2006, 08:08 PM

Actually, I don't see why all of these devices can't just talk to one another directly. However, the device rating of your average cyberware is ... let's see ... 1. Rating 3 if it's headware. So your cyberarm, without the protection afforded by a subscription to a commlink, is pretty vulnerable to your average fourteen-year-old with l33t w4r3z.

Posted by: ZenOgre Jun 23 2006, 08:19 PM

Unless you shut off it's wireless activity, and make it operate through skin link or subdermal fiber-optic links, or some such. then the l33t w4r3z kid would have to perform some surgery to get in and hack your cyberware, makes things a bit tougher.
I bring that up because i don't see a street sam needing to run around with his Comm on just to use his smartlinked gun.

Posted by: 2bit Jun 23 2006, 08:55 PM

I think youre in error mdynna; AFAIK, all cyberware (including devices installed in cyberlimbs) can communicate directly with any other piece of cyberware it needs to without the need for a commlink (SR4 pg. 330). The only thing you need to connect your cyberware to a commlink for is to make it talk to external devices, such as a smartgun held in the hand, or to communicate info (vitals, audio, video, ammo count, etc.) to a remote location over the net.

Even still, you can go the old school route with smartguns and take induction pads or jack the gun directly into your brain.

If you know of someplace else in the book where it mentions needing to network your cyberware through a commlink, please show us because I can't find it.

Posted by: mdynna Jun 23 2006, 09:13 PM

QUOTE (ZenOgre)

i don't see a street sam needing to run around with his Comm on just to use his smartlinked gun.

I do. Every electronic device in SR4 can be a Matrix "node." In order to access and interpret the information provided by that node, you need a commlink. That is how a Hacker can ever access your Smartgun in the first place. Everyone in SR4 has a Commlink because you need a Commlink to access anything.

Now, if you're reading this thinking, "That's dumb! It doesn't make sense!" I offer the following meta-game reason: Hackers need to be able to do something. In previous editions no one (at least no one I played with) wanted to play a Decker because they could only do stuff on the Matrix "computers" and when the did they had to stop and make the whole group wait. Now in SR4, by providing rules for "hacking" anything electronic, they have given Hackers a domain in which they can shine. Sams and Adepts own combat, Mages and Shamans own magic, and Hackers and TM's own technology. In previous editions, it was well known that if a group did not to have a Combat character, or a Magic character, it put them at a serious disadvantage. Well now SR4 has added the "technology" character to that list. Not only do you need a Hacker/TM in your group for offensive capabilites, you need one for defense as well.

Posted by: mdynna Jun 23 2006, 09:23 PM

QUOTE (2bit)

Well (as usual) the book is pretty silent on it "officially" so this is open to interpretation. Mainly I'm getting my ideas from some of the "fluff" text like:

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 210)

Commlinks serve as the primary hub for your PAN, allowing
you to access and manipulate all of your PAN-connected electronics
through your commlink. Need to make a call? Review a video
file you took yesterday? Scan the diagnostics on your cyberlimb?
Check the fuel on your drone? Program your alarm clock? You can
do all of this and more through your commlink.

I agree that you don't need a Commlink just to move your cyberlimb or use your cybereyes and such. But basically, any time you have data going to your "display link" device (be it glasses or eyes) I see that as going through your Commlink. Perhaps this seems ridiculous to some people, but I mainly see it as a mechanic for getting Hackers more involved in the game. See my above comment.

Posted by: 2bit Jun 23 2006, 10:12 PM

I just read the black sidebar on pg 224 "What Every Runner Needs to Know About Hacking" and it mentions hacking cyberlimbs in the same sentence as "anything wireless can be hacked". But it also says you can temporarily or permanently disable wireless features, which effectively takes the node off the Net.

QUOTE

Every wireless-enabled electronic device in SR4 can be a Matrix "node."

I think this is what you meant.

If cyberware needed to interface with a commlink before interfacing with another piece of cyberware, there would be no purpose for datajacks, because anything a datajack can do is reproduced by commlink communication. There.

Posted by: mdynna Jun 23 2006, 11:12 PM

QUOTE (2bit)

If cyberware needed to interface with a commlink before interfacing with another piece of cyberware, there would be no purpose for datajacks, because anything a datajack can do is reproduced by commlink communication.

That is the way I see it. There is no more need in SR4 for a datajack. You need one if you want to go full VR and you don't have an implanted Commlink, and if you want to connect something via wires instead of wirelessly.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 23 2006, 11:48 PM

hmm, turning every device into a node seems like a bit heavy handed a interpetation of the matrix 2.0 rules. but given the state of said rules (i belive im hearing foghorns every time i read them) its still a valid one...

Posted by: 2bit Jun 23 2006, 11:52 PM

1. If cyberware devices can't talk directly to each other, then datajacks can't talk directly to any other cyberware. Which means skillsofts loaded through your datajack (which the book mentions as a function of the Datajack) couldn't be read by your skillwires. It would need to be communicated first to the commlink. Which has its own memory. That can store skillsofts.

2. The book says cyberware "can also be linked to other cyberware implants". WTF would be the point of jacking a cable into a hole in your head if the datajack is just going to work wirelessly on other systems.

Cyberware can talk directly to each other, and they do so by wire.

Posted by: 2bit Jun 24 2006, 12:20 AM

QUOTE

#3. Arent you given two ways to find stuff connected to the matrix. One you can try to detect a node, or you can detect a signal?? Then you could track the signal back to the node??

A rigger has an attack drone in hidden mode waiting to attack anything that triggers it. A decker would either have to find a hidden node with an extended ew+scan test w/ a 15+ threshold or couldnt he just find the signal and find out exactly where the hidden drone is which should be alot easier . A decription test against the signal and if your successfull a ew+sniffer test with threshold of 3.

3 lone stars chase a runner into an alley and lose him. He is extremely dangerous so they let the hacker guy scan for nearby nodes, he finds none(cuz the runner is ghosting). Then he scans for singlas and he finds one and follows it back to a hidden node, he then hacks it and uploads a mp3 file to it and hits play. All of a sudden the 2 other lonestar guys hear the cops theme coming from behind a dumpster, "bad boys bad boys, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when we come for you". A guy jumps out and trys to get away but they tazer his ass and drag him off to jail????

On finding hidden nodes:
"Even if you know what you're looking for, you must still succeed in an Electronic Warfare + Scan (4) Test." I think the difficulty of finding the guy's hidden commlink node depends on how you interpret that statement from the book.
Do you think "I'm looking for that no good perp's commlink, and I know he's close" is specific enough? Or do I need to know the guy's commcode number and matrix address already?

As far as scanning for signals on the airwaves: I'm not sure that can get you the hidden node's address, which is what you'll need to hack the comm. I think the most you can do is jam his wireless traffic or block/edit signals.