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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Dude, they attacked my apt!

Posted by: Emrak Jun 26 2006, 12:00 AM

You all have been a tremendous help so far. Here's another brainteaser for ya.

PC is in his apt doing whatever. Sitting down eating chow, for instance.

Another team is rappelling down the side of his building right outside his window and placing "window buster" charges on it.

1.) I have him roll a perception check to see if he hears anything (w/ a -2 modifier for him being distracted at the time).
2.) Assuming he does not hear anything (or even if he does), the enemy team outside blows the window in and simultaneously tosses in a tear gas grenade.
3.) Assuming he hasn't heard anything prior, he'll be surprised.
4.) Now what? He rolls what? And with what modifiers? Let's assume his weapons are close at hand, but his main goal is to grab them and run? Also, assuming the enemy merely wanted to take him down unconscious (but not kill), what would be the fastest weapon to use? Would they have free actions the first round due to him being surprised? What technical issues, if any, do you all see arising in this situation?

I just want to be prepared and make sure there's no rules I'm missing here.

Thanks

Posted by: Jaid Jun 26 2006, 12:18 AM

don't feel like looking it up myself, but the surprise test is reaction based iirc.

and as far as weapon for the people breaking in, i'd say you probably want to hack his commlink, switch him to cold VR, and hit him with grey/black IC. that's the only sure non-lethal weapon i know of.

Posted by: Teulisch Jun 26 2006, 12:18 AM

a lot depends on the character here. But generaly, he is screwed.

first of all, tear gas,or CS gas, is a contact agent. holding your breath wont help.

if they want him alive, i advise gel or stick-n-shock ammo, narcojet darts, or tasers, and stun batons/shock hands. maybe a flying drone with such ammo?

if he is outnumbered, combat should be VERY short. acual result depends a lot on the character. expect him to complain about how you screwed and railroaded him. loudly.

Posted by: Emrak Jun 26 2006, 12:29 AM

QUOTE (Jaid)

Interesting. I didn't even know it was possible to actually "attack" VR-style someone who wasn't a hacker. Do you have a page reference in the book where it describes the attack you speak of? Namely the "switch him to cold VR, and hit him with grey/black IC" part. Is it as easy as just hacking his commlink?

Teulisch, you raise a valid point about the PC bitchin. I was shooting to make the encounter weak enough that he'd have opportunity to escape (I don't really want him caught), which is one of the reasons for me posting the question.

Posted by: Red Jun 26 2006, 12:56 AM

In Shadowrun, victory is extremely biased towards the ambusher. In order for a character to escape a hit on their own apartment, especially if they aren't expecting it, it will require either some serious incompetance on the attacker's part, or extraordinary luck. An example might be a fumbled demo roll on the door/window charge where the attacker's lose half their forces to injuries, etc...

Posted by: booklord Jun 26 2006, 01:11 AM

If whatever weapon the enemy uses is capable of harming the runner then if the multiple bad guys jumping through the window catch the runner by surprise than he is screwed. The classic movie way to handle this is to set up a situation where the bad guys think they're going to surprise the runner but instead themselves get surprised.

---------------------------------------------------------------

"You're drinking your morning coffee, and look out your window. They finally got around to cleaning the building across the street. The cleaning drones did such a good job polishing its windowed exterior that you can almost make out your reflection. You can make out the reflection of several armed men rappeling down the side of your building toward your apartment."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah it's a free-bee, but if your sure this is the way you want the story plot to go then it may well be justified. Unless this is some sort of superhuman PC multiple guys busting through his apartment window and catching by surprise is no where near a fair fight. You've got the entire encounter hinging on a perception roll he probably won't make. Throw the runner a bone. Give him a lucky break.

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 26 2006, 01:29 AM

As far as hacking a commlink and making somebody go cold VR that is only possable if the character in questions has a sim module in their commlink which only a hacker would.

If you want the dude to escape but want it to be a sloppy escape you should let him spot the ambush to atleast stop him from being suprised. Maybe a glint of light from the window or the trid unit he was listening to as he cooked food goes out.

It dumb for the pc not to have some type of security set up on his building. Thank god for neighbors. Maybe one of them seen these guys and decide to yank the fire alarm of the building or something.

As far as weaponry i would be going with smg's w/ gel rounds and pistals with narcojets. Maybe one or two mele guys with stun batons outside his apartment door. People dont just use tear gas. They use flashbangs primarily. Also its like 10x better to get a spirit to goto his apartment and sleep/gas/stun him.

What the heck did the pc do to get raided like this?? 1 guy vs a whole raiding party? That doesnt sound like there is any chance for the character to get away. Something like that should only happen if he committed murder against civi's or he decides to take stolen property back to his own house.

For some smaller infraction i would have the corps hire a gang to torch the apartment and try to kill the guy as he runs or send 2-4 operatives to his front door to ask for the items back with a failure to comply resulting in an ass whoopin.

If the 2-4 corp guys thing happens i would make them break some stuff in the apartment (and eat his breakfast) and most definately make the threat that if there are ever on the recieving end of said character again they know where he lives now. Making the guy move or set up security.

(i dont see much possable chance for him to escape from guys with repelling forces and such. Maybe smash through a wall into a neighbors apartment and then either smash out a window and repel down or make the elevator go all the way up and slip into the shaft as it passes and slide down and escape from a backdoor or something. Hmmm I might try to take out the guy in the window, attempt to shoot the people coming through the door as i jump out the window and use that repel guys own equipment to escape.)

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 26 2006, 01:47 AM

If guys can just rappel up to the window of his apartment (i.e. he has not provided any of his own security) then he probably deserves whatever he gets. Even some hardwired cameras concealed around the neighborhood and monitored by an agent that looks for cops or other heavies moving around and then giving you a call will be somthing simple like this. A high lifestyle should include stuff like this already.

Of course, the SR4 rules set give all the advantages to the attacker, so really once someone knows where you are, you are basically screwed.

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 26 2006, 02:15 AM

As for dice rolling.......

well suprise and ambushing is covered on sr4 pg155-157. I guess it goes like this.

Make a hidden perception test. If the character succeeds then he has been alerted to the fact something bad is about to go down somehow.

make a suprise test. Roll an intiative test(reaction+intuition) +3 if the victom succeeded in his perception test and +6 for the ambushers. Record Hits.

If the victom failed his perception test roll intitiative and only give +6 to the ambushers.

Now roll intiative again for the actual turn sequence. If the character passed his perception test then he can only attack or defend againt people who scored less hits than him during the suprise test. This is only in affect for the first initiative pass. if the character failed his perception test then he can only take non combat actions such as crapping himself and or diving for his guns. He can not attack or defend against anybody. This is only in affect for the first initiative pass.

On Initiative Pass 2 suprise is no longer relevant and combat can go as normal.

The book talks about how if the character fails his perception test and gets ambushed than he can make perception tests against the people who scored less hits than him in the suprise test but I dont know if i agree or if i understand it correctly. That would be like seeing the butt of a rifle right before it slams into your nose.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 26 2006, 05:48 AM

QUOTE (Abbandon)

As far as hacking a commlink and making somebody go cold VR that is only possable if the character in questions has a sim module in their commlink which only a hacker would.

ummmm... no. see, that's where you're wrong.

the vast majority of people are likely to have sim modules. sure, smartlinks don't need simsense anymore, but lets take a look at what still does:

VR matrix users (which is still more efficient than AR, and i don't think the average person worries too much about black IC)
BTLs
normal sim entertainment (which we know is very common, about equivalent to DVDs today i would say).
certain AR features (for example, the BBB indicates that there are AR "commercials" with emotive tracks... ie simsense)

furthermore, while it is not needed, per se, simsense can also provide the equivalent to image links, touchlinks, and so forth... meaning you don't need any gear/cyber other than a sim module to receive the full AR experience. this would also include if people want to use the virtual programs to experience the touch portion of, say, virtual weather programs.

certainly, it's not a 100% guarantee that everyone will have sim modules hooked up to their commlinks all the time... but i would say that a large portion of the population will in fact have a commlink with a sim module, simply because simsense is such a common and popular method of entertainment.

also consider that a sim module likely does not have to be physically connected via cable to the commlink, but can be wireless... thus, it could be in your home while you're halfway around the world, and as long as there is a path it can daisychain along, you can still use your sim module. so even if you don't pack it around with you, if it is still subscribed to your commlink (which most people won't bother to undo, imo) then you can access it. and if unsubscribed, you can subscribe it, and then access it.

i would say that simsense is far more common than you think.

Posted by: Aaron Jun 26 2006, 06:12 AM

There are two situations in which I can see using this scenario. The first is where it is being used as an encounter. The second is where it is being used to move the plot forward. Here's how I'd handle each case.

In the first case, I would, as was done, give an Intuition + Perception roll. I would then have a Surprise roll for both parties, giving +3 to the NPCs and +3 to the PC if she noticed something; I would not use the rules for an ambush, since the NPCs do not know precisely where the PC is (they're staying out of sight). Combat rounds would then ensue.

In the second case, I would simply narrate what happens. As a player being moved into a plot by a GM's fiat, I find it frustrating to be allowed the false hope of being able to change the result of what is about to happen. On top of this, the extra rolls just delay the inevitable. I would probably allow the player to react somehow, and allow a certain amount of success based on the reaction's entertainment value (a short but witty monologue, or "I grab a pack of cigars and tuck them into my jacket before I get knocked out" would be successful, whereas an attempt to run out the door would end with an unconscious PC halfway across the apartment), but the end result would be more or less the same.

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 26 2006, 09:10 AM

Jaid your talking about the average joe blow. Shadowrunners dont have time or probably the desire to watch trid shows and get special emotions from the internet. They clean guns, work, learn spells , build toys, practice their melee and other crap.

And what the hell kind of shadowrunner would link to something in his HOME lmao. Not one that wants to live very long.

My point is sim modules + commlinks are not 100%. Nobody knows to what extent its being used but if i had to guess i would say its probably only 50/50.

I know my runner would not risk turning into a chip head or open himself up to nasty things like cold/hot sim just for some extra bells and whistles while interacting with the matrix. If you want yours to, more power to ya.

Posted by: DrowVampyre Jun 26 2006, 09:31 AM

One thing to consider is where the character lives. If he's in a cheapish apartment, or indeed most any apartment outside a penthouse or something, there's not going to be a team coming through his window at one time - only one person at a time could jump through the window. So they could blow the glass and gas the room, but then it'd take a little while for them to get the team inside - time the character can use to grab his jacket & guns on the way out and book it down the hall...

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 26 2006, 02:29 PM

Or, if he's smart, he has a claymore mine set up under his window. They boom, they jump, they boom.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 26 2006, 03:07 PM

That's great for killing anyone attempting entry through the windows, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be inside the apartment when 0.65kg of C-4 sandwhiched between a steel plate and 700 ball bearings goes off in there. If you're lucky you'll just be deafened, suffer minor injuries and still have 3 intact walls, a floor and a ceiling afterwards.

Posted by: HappyDaze Jun 26 2006, 03:17 PM

On the side note of sim modules, all of my players' characters have them.

Why?

We run in Europe, and while every character speaks 3-4 languages, it's always nice to have more. With the sim module, you can edit out that pesky foreign language and have the slotted linguasoft dub over their words - a good quality set will even reimage the speaker's mouth to match the translation. By subvocalizing through a microphone, the commlink speaker can produce the needed translation (if the other guy also has a commlink set for translating, then this step is unnecessary). Of course, some runners prefer to hear the actual words said by the other guy even if they don't understand them, and for these the commlink provides subtitles.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 26 2006, 03:28 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Most 'runners have ear cyber with audio dampeners.

And three walls and a floor is plenty. Consider it the ultimate in alarm. After all, if they're entering through your window, that means they:

A: Know where you live.
B: Want you dead, or probably.

A + B = C

C = You don't want to stay there anyway. So you're really not in a mood to give a fuck what condition the apartment's in, because you're Getting the Fuck Out of Dodge.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 26 2006, 03:33 PM

QUOTE (Abbandon)

right... because all shadowrunners are robots who never get bored, and all they ever do when they aren't on a run right now is prepare for the next run that they might get.

just because your shadowrunners are some sort of shadowrunning machine with no desire to do things in their spare time doesn't mean every shadowrunner is, or even half of them. some of us like to play people who are, i don't know, somewhat realistic, shall we say? people who actually do things other than shoot people right in the face for money?

sure, maybe your runner doesn't ever use BTLs, maybe not even calhots, and maybe not even normal simsense entertainment... and hey, if you want your shadowrunner to have no personality beyond "he's a shadowrunner" then that's fine. but consider that not everyone receives training to be a shadowrunner. consider that not everyone is an experienced shadowrunner. and consider that some people will consider it a worthwhile risk to have a sim module around, since it is now entirely possible for a street sam to also be a decker or rigger, and even mages can be a decker or rigger. it is much more possible for someone now to have reasonable matrix capabilities than in earlier editions, and so i would say it's much more reasonable to expect runners to take advantage of that.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 26 2006, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

Most 'runners have ear cyber with audio dampeners.

Do they have 1000fps-ball-bearing-proof pyjamas, though?

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

So you're really not in a mood to give a fuck what condition the apartment's in, because you're Getting the Fuck Out of Dodge.

In that case, I would suggest rigging yourself an ejection bed/sofa and a couple of dozen M15 AT mines instead.

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 26 2006, 04:18 PM

QUOTE (Jaid)

QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jun 26 2006, 04:10 AM)

Second that. When my runners aren't actually on a job they are found in places like bars, restaurants, parks, malls, coffee houses, libraries, art galleries, casinos, hobby stores, brothels, arcades, their domiciles, etc..

They have real frequently paralell lives, Hobbies, interests, some even have legitimate part time jobs. I have had runners do things like logon to their home network to check to make sure their tivo (or 2070 equivalent) was recording a game while they were "working". Of course one of these characters has had a couple of his residences bombed (and really should probably be dead except that dice love him).

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 26 2006, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

In that case, I would suggest rigging yourself an ejection bed/sofa and a couple of dozen M15 AT mines instead.

About 10-15 years back there was an Ejector Bed skit on "In Living Color" (The Ejector Bed by RudeCo) that was absolutely hilarious. Probably not what you meant but this just reminded me of it.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 26 2006, 05:12 PM

That's the point of a claymore. It only fires in ONE direction - specifically, up at the person who just climbed into the window.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 26 2006, 05:48 PM

yes, one direction, but you don't want to be near the backblast. It might not be a lot, but can you imagine sitting next to it when it goes off?

Eh, installing it in the flooring? Huh... I'd hate to be the upstairs or downstairs neighbors. But then again, as a shadowrunner, who cares about them?

Oh, read the ranges for the claymore. Dang, you'll easily hit the building across the street too if you have it aimed not from the ground. Heh, better make sure people across the street are people you don't like.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jun 26 2006, 06:24 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

It only fires in ONE direction - specifically, up [...]

Oh, okay, then you end up with 4 walls but no ceiling.

It being a directional detonation doesn't mean everyone not in the 60 degree front arc is safe. If that were how explosives worked, the RPG-7 wouldn't be one of, if not the most important anti-personnel weapon in many 3rd world countries. When 0.65kg of C-4 goes off next to lots of steel (and furniture) you don't want to be anywhere near it, regardless of the great work done by misters Misznay and Schardin. There's a 100 meter danger area behind and on the sides of the thing for a reason. And that's even without the threat of 0.7 gram steel balls bouncing off of concrete at 1000+fps.

QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)

Dang, you'll easily hit the building across the street too if you have it aimed not from the ground.

If you aimed it straight out the window, it would completely demolish the face of the next building. At 50 meters, it would smash up an area 60 meters wide and at least 2 stories high, with a very good chance of killing anyone who isn't protected by a supporting wall.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 26 2006, 06:47 PM

Claymores are scary, scary shit (which AE has done a pretty good job trying to convey). You'd be a lot better off putting your own homebrewed boobytrap on the window (something like SR "defensive" grenades) then trying to use a claymore for something like that.

If I was trying to get a player to survive this, I'd have the window blow in and some tear gas come in, but give him several seconds delay before the flashbangs come in behind it and the entry guy on the team (armed with a handgun full of Gel ammo) comes through the window. The people behind him are running SMGs with Gel ammo. That few seconds gives the player the time to grab (in theory) a couple of items/weapons, and go for his door. Outside the door, he'll probably be teared up some from the gas, but there's just a couple of guys covering his hallway. Use some Edge and some Full Dodge, that shouldn't be a problem. Stand and fight in the hallway, you're going to have the window entry team to deal with...

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 26 2006, 06:55 PM

You know if you want to boobytrap the window, something like a M-80 (the firecracker) stuffed inside a Beer Bottle is probably closer to the scale you want then a claymore. Now you just need to figure out a trigger for it.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 26 2006, 08:01 PM

Hell no. If I'm a Shadowrunner, I'm a career criminal. I want the son of a bitch dead. Not just injured, not just hurting, dead dead. The kind of dead that's not a touch from the mage away from being alive. The kind of dead that not even a Great Dragon within arm's reach can bring you back from.

As for the guys above or below? I'll install impact armor under the mine and over it's projected blast area. And yeah, it won't be FUN to be in the blast radius, sure...

But it beats the holy hell out of having someone who just busted into your window shoowing you up with ex-ex or gel or stick'n'shock or whatever. Any maybe the guys behind him will think for a few combat rounds before they follow his footsteps - time for me to scoot.

Posted by: Dragonscript Jun 26 2006, 08:04 PM

A couple side notes:

1: Tear gas is not a contact poison. I know for a fact you have to breath it in. (When i was in the USMC i was on the company NBC team for 2 years and did the gas chamber every year i was in.)

2: If i remember correctly, about 1/3 of the claymore front blast ranch also went backwards in the form of a back blast. You won't have the ball bearings coming at you like the front side does but you will have a couple pounds of C-4 blasting at you though.

What kind of apartment is this? If it is a high rise then you can rule that the windows are in fact made of safety glass instead of regular glass. (While i'm no expert on high rise apartment buildings this would make sense to me.) If the windows were made of safety glass then it would take a little bit of time to get through.

Have the guys launch the gas grenades into the apartment through the windows and have them spend a round or two jumping on the windows to get through them. This should give the PC enough time to grab his gun and high tail it out before they come through.

Posted by: HappyDaze Jun 26 2006, 09:05 PM

Sucks when realistic repercussions invade your techno-fantasy RPG, doesn't it?

Much like anything in Shadowrun, if the cops/corps/government really wants you dead and they have the time to prepare then you're going to die in a 'realistic' game. Shadowrunners only live by keeping themselves below this level of attention.

Players that know and expect such things in a 'realistic' game will play accordingly but Gamemasters that don't enforce this evenly will end up with really upset players the first time they do have the big boys show just how big they really are. Make sure the tone of the game is clear between players and GMs from the start and stick to it.

BTW, the first in on the entry should likely be drones to map everything out for the HUDs provided by the entry teams' commlinks. These would also soak up most of the improvised explosives that some people think are a good idea without exposing any flesh to danger. If runners can use them, then the big boys can certainly do the same.

Posted by: 2bit Jun 26 2006, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Jaid)

QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jun 25 2006, 08:29 PM)

As far as hacking a commlink and making somebody go cold VR that is only possable if the character in questions has a sim module in their commlink which only a hacker would.

Seriously, AR gloves are more expensive than a sim module and trodes combined. Granted, for the VR switch trick to work, the subject is going to have to be VR-ready: wearing trodes, nanopaste, be jacked in, or have his 'ware implanted. Black IC is overkill, unless you're alone; the subject might fall and hit his head on something when the VR kicks in!

Posted by: stevebugge Jun 26 2006, 09:10 PM

Good call on the drones, absolutely no reason that something like the Fly Spy wouldn't be the first thing in the window/door/hole in the wall etc.

Here's an amusing thought: How well to small flying drones handle bead curtains?

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jun 26 2006, 09:52 PM

Probably about as well as airplanes handle invisible radio masts.

Posted by: Dragonscript Jun 26 2006, 09:54 PM

depends on model and firmware

Posted by: Nim Jun 26 2006, 10:08 PM

QUOTE (Dragonscript)

1: Tear gas is not a contact poison. I know for a fact you have to breath it in. (When i was in the USMC i was on the company NBC team for 2 years and did the gas chamber every year i was in.)

Reality aside, 'Tear Gas / CS' is statted in the SR4 BBB as a toxin with the vectors of 'Inhalation, Contact'.

If that violates your experience and makes you twitch, just change the name

Of course, the CS stats have some other problems...namely, the stats listed don't match the stats used in the example on the previous page.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 26 2006, 10:17 PM

My read on the situation would be that the "contact" vector means "in your eyes/mouth/whatever." I'd rule that you would be protected from the effects if you were wearing a gas mask.

Posted by: Nim Jun 26 2006, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Shrike30)

My read on the situation would be that the "contact" vector means "in your eyes/mouth/whatever." I'd rule that you would be protected from the effects if you were wearing a gas mask.

The example seems to imply that - the runner puts on a mask, but the example makes the point that it won't help him against the exposure he's ALREADY had. That suggests it WILL protect him against future exposure. Of course, the example has some problems. Not only does it use different stats for the gas, like I already mentioned, but it also gives the runner bonus defense dice for Chemical Protection and Toxin Extractors without mentioning their origin. The last one's pretty obvious, at least, but in an example you really ought to be explicit about that stuff

Posted by: Abbandon Jun 26 2006, 10:57 PM

I guess in a way i did say shadowrunners have no lives outside running but thats not what i meant. I just dont see how you can think that more than half of all shadworunners would feel the need to go full VR. You can still do alot of crap in the matrix with just normal AR, watch and listen to sims without putting yourself at risk.

I think your 6th world is to wired up and you dont think mine is wired up enough.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 26 2006, 11:07 PM

It's only in this edition of SR that I have begun to feel like the world is even approaching wired up enough...

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jun 26 2006, 11:27 PM

AR is rather new and most runner's were living normal (or abnormal) lives before the crash. Most runner unless they are real technophobes will have used and continue to use VR to experience the Matrix. What's the point otherwise? AR might be great for walking around but not web surfing. I go so far as to say that unless you're an idiot, a Luddite or REALLY paranoid you have a sim module. There's just too much simsense content out there not to use one.

Posted by: Dragonscript Jun 27 2006, 04:02 PM

QUOTE (Nim)

QUOTE (Dragonscript @ Jun 26 2006, 03:04 PM)

1: Tear gas is not a contact poison. I know for a fact you have to breath it in. (When i was in the USMC i was on the company NBC team for 2 years and did the gas chamber every year i was in.)

Reality aside, 'Tear Gas / CS' is statted in the SR4 BBB as a toxin with the vectors of 'Inhalation, Contact'.

If that violates your experience and makes you twitch, just change the name

Of course, the CS stats have some other problems...namely, the stats listed don't match the stats used in the example on the previous page.

I can understand that since i'm of the opinion that reality has little place in games. Games are suppose to be fun and reality just sucks most of the time.

Tear geas makes your eyes tear up and have coughing fits, so i guess it can be also a contact gas as long as it gets in your natural eyes. When i think of contact gas i think of blister and nerve agents which are some scary shit.