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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Thoughts of food and nutrition
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 27 2006, 01:08 AM
Have you ever thought about food and nutrition in role playing games? I get the feeling that it's one of those details which most people would rather gloss over but personally it's something that comes to mind because of my background.
Yesterday, I was laid up in bed with a case of food poisoning. As I lay there in an uncomfortable semi-sleep state I began to half-fantasize, half-dream about the classic Dungeons and Dragon's module, In Search of the Unknown.
According to the blue D&D basic rulebook "standard rations" went bad overnight in a dungeon setting because dried fruit automatically dies when it goes indoors whereas "iron rations" of hard tack and beef jerky were okay because hard tack never rots. So, imagined a newbie adventuring party raiding the pantry room of the castle because all of their "standard rations" had gone bad and finding the big supply of rock candy which was kept there.
Fighter: A lot of this food is bad, but this rock candy seems okay.
Magic-user: Because we're medieval people, we love sugar. It's a huge luxury. Let's live on rock candy till we can get back to town and buy those overpriced "iron rations".
Thief: Rar, let's stuff ourselves with rock candy and cram as much as we can carry into our bags!
Dungeon Master: Okay, you all eat as much rock candy as your stomachs can hold. We won't use the rules for starvation because you've got calories coming out of your ears but you're all massively hypoglycemic most of the time. You all lose a point of CON (subtract your hitpoint bonuses) due to hypoglycemia until you get back to town and lay off the sugar for about a day.
Perhaps because I was myself incapacitated by food I realized how important food is for healthy growth, development, and everyday vitality. If a D&D character never eats any vegetables he should have to deal with constipation and scurvy. Same thing with a shadowrun character who only ever eats processed soy protiens.
These kinds of malnutritions, realistically, would actually have a big affect on the game world. In developing countries today, for example, vitamin A deficiency is a big problem because it makes children go blind in extreme cases. As soon as the kid gets enough vitamin A eyesight returns to normal but if an entire society were completely vitamin A deprived the next generation would go blind in childhood.
Therefore, it dosen't necessarily make a lot of sense, for example, that in the Shadowrun world all the poor people eat only soy protiens, because that would fail to take into account the effects of vitamin A deficiency. From a perspective of realism to explain how most poor people aren't physically crippled in the SR world I'd have to say that all the soy products are massively multivitamin enriched and therefore the world isn't so bad after all.
All in all, these thoughts make me think that the cash-for-karma rule for "amoral" campaigns actually could make more abstract sense than using karma to raise physical attributes. I would argue that a top athelete needs to eat a special diet for top performance and optimal health. It makes less sense for a nice guy with a Squatter lifestyle to be running around with STR 9 than it does for a PC to pay a buttload of money to convert to karma to raise his STR to 9, because then I can say that the money spent abstractly represents money spent on "real" nutritionally balanced food, on medical checkups, on protien supplements, and so forth. Then, you could use the cannon poor diet and low qualities of food to justify why it costs thousands and thousands of nuyen to maintain a healthy body in the barrens.
Posted by: Rock Jun 27 2006, 01:17 AM
As long as there are soup kitchens, Stuffer Shacks, and Nuk-it Burgers, nobody in the Sixth World is going to die of starvation and/or malnutrition. Diabetes and high cholesterol, maybe, but so long as some squatter isn't eating month old beef he found in the gutter instead of fresh puppy, he should be ok.
Posted by: JesterX Jun 27 2006, 01:30 AM
Great topic...
I can easily imagine the local stuffer shack to sell soy by-products enriched with any vitamins you want to ensure the perfect diet...
Heck, they already do this with the milk today... Even if it's kind of abnormal for a human to drink from a cow... To make the product more interesting, they add D vitamins, more calcium and some companies even add other vitamins. Well, the milk industry is kinda flourishing those years, isn't? That's especially true here in Quebec since we get a huge number of milk producing farms... Everyone purchase milk. And the government do PR to encourage peoples doing so even if it's been proved that childrens who drink a lot of milk tends to be overweighted and some of them have knee problems due to the bones that grows too fast (veals don't have the same rate of growth than a human don't they?) Not to mention the huge quantity of people that are lactose intolerants...
Forgive me if it looks like I'm paranoid... I do buy milk/cheese/yogurt anyway ^_^
My point is that whatever algea/soy based food you can purchase, they can make it the taste, color, nutritive and texture they want. After all, it's made by AZT, isn't? ^_^
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 27 2006, 02:02 AM
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Dungeon Master: Okay, you all eat as much rock candy as your stomachs can hold. We won't use the rules for starvation because you've got calories coming out of your ears but you're all massively hypoglycemic most of the time. You all lose a point of CON (subtract your hitpoint bonuses) due to hypoglycemia until you get back to town and lay off the sugar for about a day. |
I think you mean hyperglycemia. Moreover, hypoglycemia should probably be causing INT penalties as well.
| QUOTE |
| Therefore, it dosen't necessarily make a lot of sense, for example, that in the Shadowrun world all the poor people eat only soy protiens, because that would fail to take into account the effects of vitamin A deficiency. From a perspective of realism to explain how most poor people aren't physically crippled in the SR world I'd have to say that all the soy products are massively multivitamin enriched and therefore the world isn't so bad after all. |
On that topic, what nutrients are "hard" to obtain or produce? If we assume that wageslave foods are fortified up the wazoo, and supplements added in, what if anything would it make sense for the bottom rung to still be deficient in?
~J
Posted by: El_Machinae Jun 27 2006, 11:53 AM
I know RoleMaster had extensive charts for food quality and food poisoning. But they had charts for everything.
I wouldn't think that nutrition was too hard in the SR world, mainly because it would be so easy to provide decent nutrition. But in less advanced gaming worlds, you could make it an issue if you wanted.
Plus, many people have fun with characters who are excessive drunks or excessive twinkie junkies, etc. Why take that away from them? Of course, they should reflect their diet in their description or stats - even something like "my character would have a higher INT if he actually slept properly instead of subsisting on caffiene"
Posted by: JRDobbs Jun 27 2006, 12:25 PM
I think the adage--never before, in the history of mankind, have so many calories been so available to so many people--will apply just as well in the 2060s as it does today. Rather than legions of tall, thin, leggy 80s rockers, I see my SR world populated by fairly short, squat, tubby corporate citizens whose answer to "eat less, move more," is to plug into a jogging sim in the matrix.
Proper nutrition, and access to "real food," is one of the hallmarks of the cyberpunk setting. Next time your players are offered a real steak, with real potatoes and onions on the side by their J, have them make Willpower tests to refuse!
Posted by: Dog Jun 27 2006, 12:38 PM
Barrens kid is out of his element:
"What the hell is this?"
"It's a potato."
"Huh?"
"It's what french fries used to be made from."
"Oh, I like those..."
I agree. Food and socialization are closely linked in every culture, so there are lots of role-playing opportunities. But I think the spoiling of food would be less of an issue in an SR game because everything would be so processed it'd last for years.
As for health issues. There's an opportunity there for character development, but I wouldn't impose it on a character. One aspect of a fantasy world, I suppose. That'd be like rolling on a chart each week to see if they catch a cold. Sure it might be more realistic, but would it enhance the game experience?
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 27 2006, 02:55 PM
| QUOTE (Dog) |
| As for health issues. There's an opportunity there for character development, but I wouldn't impose it on a character. One aspect of a fantasy world, I suppose. That'd be like rolling on a chart each week to see if they catch a cold. Sure it might be more realistic, but would it enhance the game experience? |
Yea! AD&D 1st edition Random Disease/Health Tables!
For squatter & street lifestyle characters I tend to pay a bit more attention to what and how often they eat, mostly because they might have trouble paying for or accessing a proper meal (or meal replacement supplement) regularly. The only other time I check is if a character takes a food allergy, I have a player with character who has a soy allergy, he blows a lot of money on real food! Other than those situations food is more of a setting / flavor device (ie the swordfish mustardball at this restaurant is absolutely amazing or your Nuk-it burger is a little on the cold and stale side and they reduced the condiment portions again).
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 27 2006, 04:14 PM
Decker: Type 2 What?
Street Doc: Diabetes
Decker: You'll have to speak English or Japanese 'cause I don't understand Martian, Chummer.
Street Doc: Diabetes was a disease that was common in the 20th century. Type 2 is usually a result of poor nutrition and obesity.
Decker: So you just give me some vitamin pills and a diet shake?
Street Doc: No. I give you a supply of thiazolidinediones, insulin, and a blood glucose meter. You take a pill, check your glucose, and inject yourself every day. When you run low come back. You'll be doing this so the rest of your life. Your pancreas is no longer producing insulin on its own so you'll have to moniter your glucose carefully. All the skills you need are on this chip which I can see you for an extra 399.95 
. I may be able to procure a new pancreas for you to reduce your insulin dependance but that'll be costly.
Decker: Umm. Okay.
Posted by: Lindt Jun 27 2006, 05:21 PM
Which is exactly why a PC in the game Im running has greatly entertained me by taking the hydrophonic gardens flaw on her lifestyle. Her fixer comes over for dinner once a week just for the fresh salad.
Yeah, I tend to use food, especally quality food, as a discriptor in situations. I had to remind a player whos got a squatter life style that this was the 11th day in a row of un flavored ramen noodles, and the J is paying for dinner.
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 27 2006, 05:45 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Decker: Type 2 What? Street Doc: Diabetes Decker: You'll have to speak English or Japanese 'cause I don't understand Martian, Chummer. Street Doc: Diabetes was a disease that was common in the 20th century. Type 2 is usually a result of poor nutrition and obesity. Decker: So you just give me some vitamin pills and a diet shake? Street Doc: No. I give you a supply of thiazolidinediones, insulin, and a blood glucose meter. You take a pill, check your glucose, and inject yourself every day. When you run low come back. You'll be doing this so the rest of your life. Your pancreas is no longer producing insulin on its own so you'll have to moniter your glucose carefully. All the skills you need are on this chip which I can see you for an extra 399.95 . I may be able to procure a new pancreas for you to reduce your insulin dependance but that'll be costly. Decker: Umm. Okay. |
Warning Tangent Coming:
Woudn't a biomonitor implant monitor blood sugar levels
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 27 2006, 05:51 PM
Sure it would. And it would be connected to your auto-injector. It could notify you when it was time for a refill, or even talk to your commlink and order more when you're running low. If your bloodsugar crashes or spikes it can alert an ambulance or Docwagon. Isn't technology grand?
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 27 2006, 06:03 PM
But think of the lost profit. A 1 time fee for a biomoniter and an autoinjector is nothing compared to a lifetime of disposable syringes and lost glucose meters.
Posted by: Sharaloth Jun 27 2006, 06:12 PM
I wouldn't think a new pancreas would be that costly. Counts as a small organ, right? So about 8,000 nuyen, according to SR3. You take insulin for three weeks, and then a bit of out-patient surgury and you're good for another five year twinkie-binge.
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 27 2006, 06:44 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Sure it would. And it would be connected to your auto-injector. It could notify you when it was time for a refill, or even talk to your commlink and order more when you're running low. If your bloodsugar crashes or spikes it can alert an ambulance or Docwagon. Isn't technology grand? |
If you're a runner make sure your commlink has a good firewall because a hacker could have a field day with this, yikes! As for the missing profit, those Auto-Injectors need to be filled periodically, sounds like a good source of revenue for a street doc or clinic.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 27 2006, 06:46 PM
Oh definitely. I was thinking more the perspective of the average SINner. Of course, if you're a runner it would be on your skinlinked PAN with the wi-fi disabled, not your secondary commlink that you use for communication. 
Posted by: Drraagh Jun 27 2006, 10:52 PM
I can see this being good as a generalized theme element in a game, and something that comes into play with people who don't generally have access to good food. Though what if a player plays a street lifestyle eating soy and kibble, but takes vitamin suppliments perhaps given by a doc contact or even stolen from a medical facility?
Just add it to the number of pills some people take for various reasons. Like I know one person who takes ten pills in the morning, three at lunch and five for bedtime, some for medical issues, some for psychological issues, and some for dietary issues. So, I can see some shadowrunners in the same way. Uppers or downers, maybe something for nerves (paranoia can be a common ailment), and the list can go on. Perhaps even have vitamins in slap-patches, maybe time released to seep through the body in intervals rather than flooding the body with all the stuff at once.
Not all characters in the world would think of that, but part of it depends on the players. Some groups I've seen let metagame thinking influence their characters. An example from D&D 1E; players spot some gold dropped on a shelf in the wall in the temple and one reaches for it, having a blade fall down to cut into their hand. Now, that player's characters all tend to poke and prod everything before picking it up. So your players might start looking at their players diets by having them go out and eat at a good place every so often or start taking suppliments or whatever, but it is something good to think about.
Edit: And what about cloned or replacement implants, or even some new bioware options for people with medical issues? I mean if bioware can make it so you can eat dirt and get nutrients from it... 
Edit 2: I do know this is CP2020, but it could give some interesting ideas for SR. http://www.ambient.ca/cpunk/breathing.html
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 27 2006, 11:53 PM
Type 2 diabetes could be treated with the application of a new pancreas and improved diet/exercise. I'm under the impression that Type 1 is/can be genetic, which would make replacing it with a clone of the old one difficult.
Under SR3, you could fudge the "Toxin Sac" into being a source of insulin.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 28 2006, 12:29 AM
Type 2 Diabetes may be genetic, as well. The exact causes aren't known. A new pancreas may help with insulin production but it will not help the problem of insulin resistance, which is a problem which Type 2 diabetes. In many cases the pancreas still produces insulin or can be stimulated to do so with medication but medication is required to make cells respond to the insulin.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 28 2006, 12:48 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I think you mean hyperglycemia. Moreover, hypoglycemia should probably be causing INT penalties as well. |
Well, you'd be hyperglycemic right after eating all that sugar but in between meals you'd probably be massively hypoglycemic, as you'd be in the middle of the sugar crash from hell.
Posted by: Tiralee Jun 28 2006, 02:22 AM
| QUOTE |
| I can easily imagine the local stuffer shack to sell soy by-products enriched with any vitamins you want to ensure the perfect diet... Heck, they already do this with the milk today... Even if it's kind of abnormal for a human to drink from a cow... |
Would you rather fresh mother's milk, straight from the human lactator?
"Mmmm, it's motherly!"
"Motherly milk, it's Lovely!"
"If it's not Motherly, it's not real milk!"
With that mental image, I'll go back to my bee-vomit sandwiches and maybe an unfertilized ova or two for breakfast.
-Tir
There's something call the Sausage Law. Those who like sausages and respect the law should never see either being made. Natch
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 28 2006, 02:49 AM
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11789&hl=breastpump
Hell yes, I'd buy human breast milk. According to medical literature the breast is the best.
-notice how the breast pump discussion segues into a gun discussion and quietly slips back. What's the best rifle caliber for making delicious buffalo sausage?
Posted by: nezumi Jun 28 2006, 01:42 PM
1) Yes, I'd love to have fresh human milk from the source. And why do you think I'm feeding my pregnant wife so much chocolate? Chocolate milk is my favorite.
2) No, I do not want to drink fresh cow milk from the source. Those machines in the middle help prevent socially unacceptable scenes.
Posted by: JesterX Jun 28 2006, 01:43 PM
| QUOTE (Tiralee) | ||
Would you rather fresh mother's milk, straight from the human lactator? "Mmmm, it's motherly!" "Motherly milk, it's Lovely!" "If it's not Motherly, it's not real milk!" With that mental image, I'll go back to my bee-vomit sandwiches and maybe an unfertilized ova or two for breakfast. -Tir There's something call the Sausage Law. Those who like sausages and respect the law should never see either being made. Natch |
I've tried breast milk... And It does taste good! (I'm a father... twice... if you want to know where my source of breast milk was... lol
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 28 2006, 02:03 PM
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| Same thing with a shadowrun character who only ever eats processed soy protiens. |
The generic "soyfood" of SR may well include factory-injected vitamins and key nutrients. Soy (or that algae stuff) is just the main source of calories in the injection-molded synthfood.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 28 2006, 10:41 PM
How can it be!?!?!?! RPG players having WIVES who are PREGNANT and who have ACCESS TO BREASTS!
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 28 2006, 11:22 PM
Transmetropolitan (a must-read for any serious SR GM, in my opinion) had a great world bit involving cloning. Since the cloning of human body parts without the creation of an entire clone had been made possible, there's nothing amoral about cloning, right? Boom, instant fast-food franchise: "Long Pig"
Posted by: nezumi Jun 29 2006, 12:34 AM
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| How can it be!?!?!?! RPG players having WIVES who are PREGNANT and who have ACCESS TO BREASTS! |
Yep! And my kids are named Lucien and Damien (well, that's half true... My brother is named Damien, but no relation to Knight.)
Posted by: JesterX Jun 29 2006, 12:53 AM
| QUOTE (nezumi) | ||
Yep! And my kids are named Lucien and Damien (well, that's half true... My brother is named Damien, but no relation to Knight.) |
lol ... My sons are named Gabriel and Sebastien ... however I wish I had name Sebastien "Raphael" instead... Since my First name is Michel, it would have been great to have 3 major celestials from In Nomine...
Posted by: John Campbell Jun 29 2006, 05:28 PM
| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| lol ... My sons are named Gabriel and Sebastien ... however I wish I had name Sebastien "Raphael" instead... Since my First name is Michel, it would have been great to have 3 major celestials from In Nomine... |
Uh... you are aware that none of those archangels originated with In Nomine, right?
Posted by: ronin3338 Jun 29 2006, 05:56 PM
| QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 27 2006, 06:53 PM) |
| Type 2 diabetes could be treated with the application of a new pancreas and improved diet/exercise. I'm under the impression that Type 1 is/can be genetic, which would make replacing it with a clone of the old one difficult. |
Sorry to derail, but I thought I'd share some info.
My daughter was just recently diagnosed as Type 1 diabetic. We were surprised to find out that it is considered an auto-immune disease.
Apparently, at some point (usually young, but not always) your body's immune system doesn't shut off after it beats an illness, and begins to attack the Beta cells that produce insulin in your pancreas. At some point, enough cells have been destroyed so that your body isn't producing enough insulin, and eventually (weeks or months) your body can't producce it at all.
Type 2 can be regulated with diet and pills, occasionally insulin shots, but Type 1 requires daily doses of insulin. You can get a pump, if you don't mind that sort of thing, but they are also working on an insulin "inhaler" (which is what we're hoping for for my daughter)
We now return you to your regularly scheduled DS thread.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 29 2006, 06:14 PM
| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| lol ... My sons are named Gabriel and Sebastien ... however I wish I had name Sebastien "Raphael" instead... Since my First name is Michel, it would have been great to have 3 major celestials from In Nomine... |
You should have named them Uriel and Yehudiel instead.
~J
Posted by: JesterX Jun 29 2006, 07:44 PM
| QUOTE (John Campbell) | ||
Uh... you are aware that none of those archangels originated with In Nomine, right? |
Gabriel, Archangel of Fire, main book
Micheal, Archangel of War, main book
Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge, (Angelic Player's Guide i think... However, he ascended to higher sphere)
What do you mean by they "didn't originated with In Nomine" ?
Posted by: JesterX Jun 29 2006, 07:46 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
You should have named them Uriel and Yehudiel instead. ~J |
Uriel would have been cool... A psychopathic maniac that cleaned the Blandine side of the marches ^_^
Who is Yehudiel?
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 29 2006, 07:55 PM
| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| What do you mean by they "didn't originated with In Nomine" ? |
There were angels with those names in literature before In Nomine existed.
Posted by: JesterX Jun 29 2006, 09:20 PM
| QUOTE (James McMurray) | ||
There were angels with those names in literature before In Nomine existed. |
Oh! that's what he meant! ^_^Sorry... Of course I knew that...
Michel in hebrew even means "Who is like god" and Gabriel means "The strength of God" or something like that...
However, even if I don't follow or believe in any religions, it's kind of interesting to see where our first name come...
Especially when the same angel appears in many different religions!!!
For instance, did you knew that:
Gabriel was the one who revealed the Qur'an to the prophet Muhammad in Islam?
And the same one that announced to Mary that she was pregnant with the son of god in Christianity?
I don't quite remember what his role was in Judaism however... But I remember him to appear quite a few times.
Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jun 29 2006, 09:33 PM
I don't know why you find that surprising at all. The whole point of Islam was to be a continuation, as it were, of Judiasm and Christianity. So it makes perfect sense for ol' Gabby to be popping up since it would help to legitimize that idea.
Posted by: Ophis Jun 30 2006, 08:33 AM
| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| Raphael, Archangel of Knowledge, (Angelic Player's Guide i think... However, he ascended to higher sphere) |
Raphael died during the battle with Legion.
It was Uriel who "ascended" to a higher plane after the whole Ethereal Crusade debackle.
Posted by: JesterX Jun 30 2006, 03:03 PM
| QUOTE (Ophis) | ||
Raphael died during the battle with Legion. It was Uriel who "ascended" to a higher plane after the whole Ethereal Crusade debackle. |
You're right... my error ^_^
Well I think we should stop hijacking this thread... What was the main subject again? ^_^
Posted by: nezumi Jun 30 2006, 03:38 PM
We were talking about my kid (due in August) named Lucien and my brother Damien, I think.
Posted by: Voran Jul 1 2006, 01:42 AM
I was wondering, what would royal jelly do? Nutrition wise? I remember the older chemical gland heading talking about all the things you could make it produce, including that royal jelly. Would that act as a lifestyle supplement for things such as the older rules on Superthyroid/etc type bioware upgrades? Could you live on just royal jelly and water?
Posted by: toturi Jul 1 2006, 02:00 AM
Hey.... there are no Bee Insect Spirits. 
Boo! No Royal Spirit Jelly!
Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 1 2006, 02:34 AM
The problem with a royal jelly gland or any other food producing gland is that your own body is making the food. It only contains the nutrients that you put into it. It is equivilant to drinking your own breast milk or eating your own legs. This self-canibalism is counterproductive. It can relieve hunger but it cannot sustain you. You actually lose nutrition in the process. It is far better to allow your body to break down its own fat and muscle naturally.
In the end, you can't beat the second law of thermodynamics. You have to eat someone else in order to survive.
Posted by: Nikoli Jul 1 2006, 02:56 AM
Right, so it's a bad idea to get the lemon pepper or soy sauce producing implants before going on that vacation in Denver...
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