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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ the 7th world
Posted by: Straight Razor Jun 27 2006, 08:51 PM
anyone ever thought of doing a 7th world game?
My room mate got a manga called Blame, and it made me think would the world be like after Magic left and there was a great deal of tech around that was inspired and provoked by it.
if i was going to do a 7th world game i think i would remove essence all together. magic att would cost double(point system) and drain is always physical.
any thoughts??
Posted by: Platinum Jun 27 2006, 09:09 PM
called battletech or mechwarrior.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 27 2006, 09:14 PM
Just divide the effective Force of all foci by 4, and multiply the effective Force for determining drain and time, etc. for spells and spirits by the same number.
~J
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 27 2006, 09:17 PM
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11920&hl=blame!
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 27 2006, 09:17 PM
Sounds interesting, also sounds like one hell of a big project. Judging by some of the threads on Earthdawn Crossovers the beginning of the 7th world should occur around 7015. Some of the things you'll have to decide are if you want to have a scourge in the middle part or not, if you do how far back does it set (meta)humanity when it happens and what is the level of tech in your setting (Mechwarrior? Traveller, Star Trek, etc). It sounds like magic will be possible, but extremely difficult, rare, and painful to do. Additionally you may have to deal with things like long distance spaceflight and alien manaspheres and even aliens if you want to go there. In short you've got a nearly clean slate game world to develop there.
Posted by: Calvin Hobbes Jun 28 2006, 12:54 AM
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a good example of a lost age of magic leading to a new age of technology, where horrors and monsters abound.
Posted by: Glorian Jun 28 2006, 01:12 AM
I believe in a story that Tom Dowd wrote, Ehran the Scribe, put the date of the Sixth World ending and Seventh World starting as April 4, 7137. It's difficult to guess anything about a world five thousand years in the future, except those damn immortal elves will still be around. 
Posted by: Lagomorph Jun 28 2006, 01:16 AM
I was also under the impression that the horrors signaled the end of a world, since they ate magic things (or just everything). Since AZT almost brought them over in 206X, they could succeed in another 100 years and then magic would die out again.
My whole grasp of the world cycle is sketchy at best, so I may be way off with that.
Posted by: Glorian Jun 28 2006, 01:31 AM
No, actually, the Horrors come in the middle of the even-numbered worlds, because that's when the magic levels are at the highest, allowing them to cross over. The Horrors in general, consume everything, though some are more finicky eaters. However, they depend on magic. If the magic is gone, so are they. The premise of the kaers in Earthdawn, was to simply wait the Horrors out, and wait for the magic level to drop. To measure the magic level, a ball of True Earth was levitated over True Water. As the magic drop, the ball dropped. However, in Earthdawn, the ball didn't drop into the water. Instead of the magic steadily declined, it plateaued.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 28 2006, 02:20 AM
Horrors do not eat magic. They breath magic and they corrupt magic. Horrors eat flesh; they eat fear; they eat pain; they eat jealously; they eat disire; they eat fealty; they eat courage;they eat vanity; they eat heroism; they eat insanity. They eat many things but none eat magic.
Posted by: Ancient History Jun 28 2006, 02:35 AM
Sometimes, they even eat other Horrors.
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jun 28 2006, 03:41 AM
OK, so 7th world Ideas
One, nothing we recognize as the world of now will exist. Continents themselves will have shifted, we could have had a pole shift for all that it would help. Make little cardboard cutouts of the continents and major islands, and move them around a bit. Destroy areas. It'll be fun.
The horrors will have come. The question is, how well do you want metahumanity to have faired?
Now HERE'S an Idea. Imagine that when the horrors come, the rich and technologically adept have built space stations capable of supporting hundreds of thousands of people in earth-like enviornments. Maybe the become interplanetary or even interstellar if that floats your boat, though I'd prefer it limited to the solar system if at all possible (it makes for a more cyberpunk feel, which I'd like to keep a little of).
So earth is essentially abandoned, and people are protected from the horrors by the fun mana warps of space. Except that those unlucky enough to not be rich and powerful were left on earth, and some survived the horrors (they always do). So after the scourge, the rich and powerful come down from orbit to reclaim the planet, only to find there are scourge survivors with other Ideas. Magic still works, but is on the wain. The ruins and dungeons to explore are the remains of our modern cities (Imagine your local landmarks lasting 5000 years into the future. Some of those things are built to last.)
If you wanted to get interplanetary, then other planets have their own mana cycles, and some may be approaching their peak now.
Or maybe the mars is the true home of the horrors, and when the mana cycle reach a specific point, their manaspheres extend so far out as to touch. thats a differnt take, so we'll leave it.
But yeah, we know immortal elves will have made their way onto the stations. Hell, they'll have probably ruled at least one. It would be hard to keep it a secret that they were immortal, so they are probably in the open.
Dragons however would have been earthbound, and survived through hibernation as usual. Pick a few to have verigorn kill off. The rest will probably head the resistance to the spacers reclaiming earth.
Posted by: Straight Razor Jun 28 2006, 04:19 AM
sim-city style archology launching. mabe against it's will. how big of a ritual would you need to launch one?
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 28 2006, 04:40 AM
Big. It's basicly be a levetation spell but many successes would be required to overcome the wieght.
7th World = G Gundam? Chicks dig giant robots.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 28 2006, 04:52 AM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jun 27 2006, 10:41 PM) |
| people are protected from the horrors by the fun mana warps of space. |
*Thud* *Thud* *Thud* *Thud* *Thud* *Thud* *Thud* *Thud* *Thud*
~*Thud*
Posted by: Witness Jun 28 2006, 09:15 AM
I've http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=12565&st=25&#entry382850 a little before.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 28 2006, 11:32 AM
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jun 28 2006, 03:41 AM) |
| One, nothing we recognize as the world of now will exist. Continents themselves will have shifted, we could have had a pole shift for all that it would help. |
Continents don't move (significantly) in 5000 years.
You might get some coastline shifts from icecap melting or an ice age, but in 5000 years, most continents will only move about [edit]duh, 250m, at 5cm/year.[/edit]
The wobble of Earth's poles have a predictable 26,000-year period. By 7000AD, the new pole star should be Vega, leaving Polaris mis-named (but still closely aligned with the north pole - the wobble isn't big).
Posted by: Rock Jun 28 2006, 11:55 AM
In the real world, sure, continents don't move except at a snail's pace. In a world where you have some high powered magic, elves that don't die, and horrors from other planes of existance showing up to eat you and swallow your soul, then maybe it's possible for something to happen and drastically change the position of the continents. You could even chalk it up to a major magic battle where the amount of magic used makes the Great Ghost Dance looks like parlor tricks by comparison and use that as the excuse.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 28 2006, 01:19 PM
| QUOTE (stevenrockwell) |
| In the real world, sure, continents don't move except at a snail's pace. |
And in this fictional world, continents didn't move in the 2nd World or the 4th World (which also had the elves, horrors, and uber-magic). It's unlikely to happen in the 6th World, either.
Posted by: JesterX Jun 28 2006, 01:52 PM
It's absolutly astonishing to see references taken from Shadowrun material on a End of the world website:
http://www.greatdreams.com/end-world.htm
Just a quick google search with the terms : mayan calendar 7137 2012 and I found this... lol
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 28 2006, 01:54 PM
Those aren't Shadowrun references, dude.
Edit: Holy crap, they are. I… wish I hadn't clicked that list and had lived my life in ignorance instead.
~J
Posted by: Witness Jun 28 2006, 02:10 PM
| QUOTE (JesterX) |
| It's absolutly astonishing to see references taken from Shadowrun material on a End of the world website: http://www.greatdreams.com/end-world.htm Just a quick google search with the terms : mayan calendar 7137 2012 and I found this... lol |
Now that's funny.
Posted by: JesterX Jun 28 2006, 02:28 PM
| QUOTE (Witness) | ||
Now that's funny. |
I sure hope that the owner of this website knows that he is quoting SciFi material and *what* the Dumpshock website is... ^_^
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 28 2006, 05:12 PM
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
And in this fictional world, continents didn't move in the 2nd World or the 4th World (which also had the elves, horrors, and uber-magic). It's unlikely to happen in the 6th World, either. |
1cm per year would be considered fast moving in terms of plate tectonics, meaning some of the fastest moving plates might have moved 50 meters in that time period. There are a few places where that may have a significant impact (If I could find my handy plate map I'd list them) but mostly it won't do much. Major geologic or climatologic events (which could be triggered by Magic) will do more. If you need a real cataclysm add a meteor strike, Volcanoes, large earthquakes, tsunamis, mini ice ages, or large Hurricanes could all be used to reshape your map.
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jun 28 2006, 05:53 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11920&hl=blame! |
Wow, I seem spastic in my posts in that thread...
Posted by: coolgrafix Jun 28 2006, 10:49 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11920&hl=blame! |
I like the way you think, Hyz.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 28 2006, 11:41 PM
| QUOTE (JesterX @ Jun 28 2006, 06:52 AM) |
| It's absolutly astonishing to see references taken from Shadowrun material on a End of the world website: Just a quick google search with the terms : mayan calendar 7137 2012 and I found this... lol |
| QUOTE (Witness) |
| Now that's funny. |
Y'all are aware that Shadowrun referenced the Mayan calendar to figure out when the 6th world would begin, and (in theory) when the world would end, right?
That is, if, say, an End of the World website were to draw from a similar source (like, oh, I dunno... the Mayan calendar) it might come up with the same dates that Shadowrun uses?
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 29 2006, 12:01 AM
The site that was linked to used quotes from Ehran the Scribe to justify the beleifs stated. It cites the quote by providing a link to dumpshock.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jun 29 2006, 12:02 AM
Oh, score 
Okay, I'm an ass 
Posted by: Rock Jun 29 2006, 12:05 AM
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
And in this fictional world, continents didn't move in the 2nd World or the 4th World (which also had the elves, horrors, and uber-magic). It's unlikely to happen in the 6th World, either. |
Unlikely doesn't mean impossible, especially if the writers decide it needs to happen. This is fiction after all and anything can happen with the stroke of a pen.
Posted by: JesterX Jun 29 2006, 12:49 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The site that was linked to used quotes from Ehran the Scribe to justify the beleifs stated. It cites the quote by providing a link to dumpshock. |
It even got a link to the Dumpshock website ^_^
Posted by: Witness Jun 29 2006, 01:24 PM
I'll chuck this in here, because I guess it's relevant to the original subject. This is from the game I finished running recently- a transcript that the players acquired, and one that opened the PCs' eyes to the wider history of the Sixth World. Might get a rise out of some people! 
| QUOTE (the BC transcript) |
| According to ancient sources (including Great Dragons and Immortal Elves), the world entered its sixth cycle of magic in 2011 (the Awakening), hence many magic users refer to this as the Sixth World- often without dwelling on all that this implies. This belief prompted an enthusiastic re-evaluation of the Mayan ‘Long Count’ calendar, but it should be noted that the Mayan calendar predicted that the new cycle would begin on December 12th 2012 (not December 24th 2011), and according to the Popol Vuh, a sacred Mayan text, this date would herald the arrival of the fifth (and final) world, not the sixth. Of course some scholars claim that the miscalculations are not the Mayans but ours (for not converting dates properly, for example). This is pure egotistical bluster. At any rate, let us unfold this calendar as best we can. If the ‘cycle theory’ is pursued in a logically consistent fashion then the ‘First World’ began in ~23613 BCE. This would have been a non-magical world. The ‘Second World’ in which magic should first have appeared, began in ~18488 BCE- it can be surmised that Dragons, in their current magical form, should not have existed before this. Some do refer to the Second World as the ‘Dragon Age’. The Third World, non-magical again, would have begun in ~13363 BCE. The Fourth World (magical again) would have begun in ~8238 BCE, peaked in ~5675 BCE and ended in ~3113 BCE (with, it is claimed, the sinking of Atlantis). The Fifth World, non-magical and occupying most of recorded history, ended with the Awakening, while the current Sixth World is scheduled to end in ~7137 AD, and with it magic will supposedly vanish for another 5125 years. Upon this essentially anecdotal framework let us superimpose various other events that are supported by geological, archaeological and genetic evidence: Homo sapiens appears around 400000 BCE, evolving from Homo erectus forebears. Migrations out of Africa begin some time between 80000 and 64000 BCE. In about 72000 BCE there is a severe bottleneck in the human population (leaving only 2000-10000 individuals worldwide), possibly caused by volcanic catastrophe (Toba). Humans first reach America around 48000 BCE and Australia about 40000 BCE. This is all pre-‘First World’. The ice age, building up since ~70000 BCE, reaches its maximum extent in around 18000 BCE and lasts until roughly 10000 BCE. The Second World, with the first appearance of Dragons and Magic, should therefore have begun at the height of the Ice Age, peaking around 16000 BCE, and ending well before the ice age did (in the non-magical Third World). The Egyptian empire dates to roughly 3000 BCE- the very beginning of the Fifth World, though of course some claim that the Pyramids and Sphinx are older than this. The cyclical theory of magic does not comfortably mesh with the scientific evidence, particularly when it comes to the earlier ages. The evidence, independently verifiable, mutually reinforcing, and coming as it does from multiple disciplines, is likely reasonably accurate. Probably the Mayan Long Count is overly simplistic (it is lauded by Ehran but described by Dunklezahn as merely ‘more accurate than most’). It seems probable that the cycle of magic is not nearly so clockwork and predictable as some would choose to believe. |
Have at it folks.
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 29 2006, 03:24 PM
A reconciling thought or two here.
Perhaps something done in the first world started the magic cycle, maybe some event in Babylon, Ur or some other Mesopotamian city.
There may be earlier cycles that were not recorded (at least not by humans, and dragons aren't sharing).
Posted by: coolgrafix Jun 29 2006, 03:41 PM
| QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jun 29 2006, 10:24 AM) |
| A reconciling thought or two here. Perhaps something done in the first world started the magic cycle, maybe some event in Babylon, Ur or some other Mesopotamian city. There may be earlier cycles that were not recorded (at least not by humans, and dragons aren't sharing). |
Perhaps there is yet another unknown (or simply undisclosed) threshold at work. Perhaps the Gaiasphere itself had to reach a certain threshhold before the cycle first began. Perhaps this was tied in some way to sentient populations in the Gaiasphere or perhaps a level or collective awareness of those in the Gaiasphere.
It's also possible that the cycle has been in progress since the first living thing came to exist on the planet some millenia ago. Ehran mentions that the cycle fluctuates and is somewhat erratic. Perhaps by the time anyone was clued-in enough to notice it or understand what was happening it was just after the last Ice Age.
It's also simply possible that the various "worlds" are simply nomenclature provided by those who assumed the world began with them.
Posted by: Sicarius Jun 29 2006, 04:22 PM
Don't quite a variety of shadowrun storylines involve screw with the cycle? Such as the ghost dance hurrying the arrival of the Horros, and Azzie attempts to bring the horrors etc? that would suggest to me that when the cycle occurs is dependent on what is done during that period which can shorten or lengthen the cycle
Posted by: John Campbell Jun 29 2006, 04:50 PM
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| The wobble of Earth's poles have a predictable 26,000-year period. By 7000AD, the new pole star should be Vega, leaving Polaris mis-named (but still closely aligned with the north pole - the wobble isn't big). |
The circle of precession covers about 45 degrees of sky, which I'd say is rather big. You can eyeball it yourself... Vega's pretty easy to find this time of year. It's the fifth-brightest star in the sky, and visible all night. It'll be high in the northeast in the evening, and if you have to ask which one, you're not looking at Vega.
Polaris and Vega (which is really several degrees outside the actual circle, but makes up for it through sheer brightness) are almost diametrically opposed on that 26,000 year circle... it'll take roughly 13,000 years for the pole to approach Vega. That'd be the height of the Eighth World. In 5,000 years, beginning of the Seventh World, the pole will be somewhere in Cepheus, just over a third of the way around the arc to Vega. The nearest star of any note looks to be Alfirk, Beta Cephei, which is an otherwise unremarkable star on the dim end of third magnitude.
Back in Earthdawn days, the pole star was Thuban, a bright fourth-magnitude in Draco (which gets to be Alpha Draconis, despite its relative dimness, on the strength of its pole-star history).
I'm guessing that PlatonicPimp meant a shift of the magnetic poles, though.
Posted by: Witness Jun 29 2006, 05:40 PM
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| I'm guessing that PlatonicPimp meant a shift of the magnetic poles, though. |
Maybe, but I'm pretty sure those don't follow any neat cyclic pattern.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 29 2006, 06:15 PM
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| By 7000AD, the new pole star should be Vega, leaving Polaris mis-named |
But then what will we do for trolls?
~J
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 29 2006, 06:45 PM
| QUOTE (Witness) | ||
Maybe, but I'm pretty sure those don't follow any neat cyclic pattern. |
I think they do follow a fairly regular pattern actually. Based on analysis of the magnetic alignement of seafloor material moving away from the divergent plate zones (like the mid-atlantic ridge) there are alternating bands of north oriented and south oriented material that correspond to the flipping of the magnetic poles with breife periods of no alignment at all at the boundaries of those bands.
Posted by: James McMurray Jun 29 2006, 06:48 PM
Oh my god!!! It's all going to end!!!
Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 29 2006, 06:59 PM
Those periods of no alignment are actually periods of multiple alignments. During a geomagnetic reversal (when the north and south poles swap places) the magnetic field weakens and fragments, resulting in multiple north/south pairs all over the world, before the field corrects itself into its new alignment.
We're actually due for a geomagnetic reversal right about now.
http://www.firstscience.com/SITE/ARTICLES/magnet.asp
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/about.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2152
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal
Posted by: Witness Jun 29 2006, 07:45 PM
Time to buy shares in compass-making businesses!
Posted by: PlatonicPimp Jun 30 2006, 02:57 AM
By pole shift I was refering to the cracked out geological theory that every once in a while the earths crust decides to move about and place the poles (the real poles, not the magnetic ones) somewhere else. I cannot suggest a better treatment of the subject than that in suppressed transmissions by Kenneth Hitte.
And I am apparently owned on the whole continental drift thing, though I was thinking of things like the sinking of atlantis as a good enough reason to have some fun moving continents. We also get to raise and lower the water levels as we wish, giving us things like a land bridge between asia and north america.
Now, if the Mana cycle is say, linked to the number of sentients on the planet, it might make sense. Take it thusly: while populations are low, there is no magic. As populations rise, magic gradually returns, until it reaches a threshold level. Then we get an awakening. Afterwards, at a high point, the horrors come, and eat everyone. Which makes the population decline, which causes the mana buildup to reverse. Then the magic slowy drains away until it is gone. Then, the population begins to rebuild......
Posted by: Witness Jun 30 2006, 08:48 AM
| QUOTE (stevebugge) |
| I think they do follow a fairly regular pattern actually. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Now, if the Mana cycle is say, linked to the number of sentients on the planet, it might make sense. Take it thusly: while populations are low, there is no magic. As populations rise, magic gradually returns, until it reaches a threshold level. Then we get an awakening. Afterwards, at a high point, the horrors come, and eat everyone. Which makes the population decline, which causes the mana buildup to reverse. Then the magic slowy drains away until it is gone. Then, the population begins to rebuild...... |
World population in 2012: about 7 billion?
In 1802: 1 billion.
Back in 950 AD: 250 million.
This doesn't work for me. I just can't buy the idea that there were, at the end of the 1st and 3rd worlds, 7 billion people in the world just as there was at the end of the 5th.
Posted by: coolgrafix Jun 30 2006, 02:19 PM
| QUOTE (Witness @ Jun 30 2006, 03:48 AM) |
| World population in 2012: about 7 billion? In 1802: 1 billion. Back in 950 AD: 250 million. This doesn't work for me. I just can't buy the idea that there were, at the end of the 1st and 3rd worlds, 7 billion people in the world just as there was at the end of the 5th. |
The argument that the existance of a mana wave is tied to population doesn't require equal populations in each age. It simply would/could mean that with each world's growing populations the signal strength of the mana wave is also greater, whether positive (even numbered worlds) or negative (odd numbered worlds).
To this it could be argued: "Ah, but what about the Second World (the Age of Dragons) when all hell was breaking loose and being born. Surely the mana level then was AT LEAST as high as in 2070?"
And in response to this it could be argued: "Yes, but the 6th World is just now beginning. Sit back, strap yourself in, and get ready for the most outlandish mana cycle in the history of the world." =)
Just some thoughts.
Posted by: stevebugge Jun 30 2006, 05:36 PM
| QUOTE (Witness) | ||||
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal
World population in 2012: about 7 billion? In 1802: 1 billion. Back in 950 AD: 250 million. This doesn't work for me. I just can't buy the idea that there were, at the end of the 1st and 3rd worlds, 7 billion people in the world just as there was at the end of the 5th. |
It does look a bit more random than I remember from my college courses alright. Just to provide a counterpoint to the Wiki (be careful they tend to be somewhat incomplete in a lot of areas) I don't personally subscribe to the Dynamo Theory, I think the evidence supporting the theory that the Earth's Core is made of Heavier elements than the Nickel-Iron Crystal supposed in dynamo theory and that the heat of either fission or radioactive decay is driving the convection currents of the Mantle and generating the Electro-Magnetic fields is a bit more complete than the evidence behind dynamo theory. Neither are proven and Dynamo Theory is still dominant. The reversal triggered by Geologic event theory is a bit hard to support n my opinion, for the simple reason that if true there should be many more reversals than have been detected, for example where is the reversal that should be associated with the Krakatoa Eruption in the 1800's?
As for tying the Mana Cycle to Population or Biomass I'm in agreement with everyone that finds that a bit hard to swallow. I'd be much more inclined to believe that there were many previous manacycles that went unrecorded due to either the lower level of evolution/civilization or because the Horrors had far less opposition and were much more successful in decimating previous societies and cultures.
Posted by: Cynic project Jul 1 2006, 04:33 AM
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
And in this fictional world, continents didn't move in the 2nd World or the 4th World (which also had the elves, horrors, and uber-magic). It's unlikely to happen in the 6th World, either. |
LA.... The plate around LA went in the wrong direction causing a quake on a scale hat should have killed billions of people. But you know that shadowrun fallows geograpic facts.
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