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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Subscription lists

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 20 2006, 12:13 PM

The Subscription List

Am I the only one scratching my head at this?

The Persona has a subscription list over devices that are allowed to establish communications with you, fine, that’s dandy, I’m happy now – except for a few odd things.

Why is the subscription list always a two-way communication. What if I only want to receive information from my SB Microskimmers imagelink? According to the RAW the Subscription list and the “You many configure your devices so that they only interact with another specific device” (SR4 page 212) are incompatible since the Persona is THE only subscription list as I read it.

At the same time I start to wonder about devices and drones, not to mention agents as they in turn need their own subscription list so that they know what devices THEY are allowing and are allowed to access.

It seems that each and every device CAN have their own subscription list and not just the persona.

For example.

PersonaCommlinkDrone, Car, Guncam etcTeam

Now, persona can only access the commlink but the commlink in turn can access several items. Since the persona has access through the commlink it can also access the gear.

I should also be able to forward my drone imagelink to the team in a ONE-WAY communication so that the team has an image from the drone but they cannot command the drone because that’s my characters job.

Posted by: Eryk the Red Jul 20 2006, 01:03 PM

I don't know enough about the rest to answer your question, but I'd point out that you don't subscribe things to your persona, as it's not a device. Generally, you subscribe things to your commlink, since that's how you access the matrix. Then, only your commlink can be used to access those other devices.

Also, remember that subscription lists don't go both ways. Your radio, your refrigerator and your smartgun are subscribed to your commlink. That means they can only be accessed by your commlink, and will only accept orders from your commlink. Your commlink, however, is not limited only to accessing your refrigerator, radio and smartgun. It is just as unrestricted as if there was no subscription list at all.

Posted by: booklord Jul 20 2006, 01:19 PM

I thought the very idea of "Hidden Mode" was exactly that. You effectively set you commlink so it only accepts signals from authorized sources.

I don't think they use the term "subscription list" but it sounds very "subscription list"ish to me.

As for the persona not having the "subscription list", but the commlink that's true. Unless of course you're a technomancer.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 20 2006, 01:53 PM

by the looks of it, a persona is a logical extension of the physical comlink into another node. ie, a comlink (or equivalent) without a user directly connected to it does not have a persona.

therefor, the subscription list of the comlink is most likely shared with the persona. in many ways the persona is just a customized prosess icon for the prosess that got started to manage the connection between your comlink/PAN node and whatever node your connecting to.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 20 2006, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (The Jopp)

Why is the subscription list always a two-way communication. What if I only want to receive information from my SB Microskimmers imagelink?

I should also be able to forward my drone imagelink to the team in a ONE-WAY communication so that the team has an image from the drone but they cannot command the drone because that’s my characters job.

Isn't this already a possibility?

You can have the each Team member subscribed to your PAN (for two-way communiction, that is), but the Team's PANs don't have to subscribed to you? Subscription lets you control devices, with a Subscription you can't control the device but could still turn the feed on and off.

Yes?

Posted by: Wiseman Jul 20 2006, 03:07 PM

I agree with Hobgoblin on this one.

Your persona IS you in the matrix for all intents. A subscription list can be as long as you like, its only the active subscriptions that count.

Yes you can send an image feed to the other runners of your drones camera (provided they have a commlink/image link or simsense).

You can put commlinks on hidden and still talk/exchange information with the other members of your party. You do this by subscribing them (preferably to the hackers more secure commlink). In effect, you and your buds are creating a hidden mesh PAN with the access node at the hackers commlink.

Nodes are devices, however persona's are like devices that are actively interfacing with the matrix. For most player purposes Persona is their node. For hackers/TM's who's commlinks are active but not interfaced at that moment is a node.

In the games I run, if your actively using your commlink, a copy of your persona is always in the node. Otherwise its treated just like a system (provided you haven't switched your commlink completely off).

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 20 2006, 06:20 PM

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Jul 20 2006, 05:13 AM)

Why is the subscription list always a two-way communication. What if I only want to receive information from my SB Microskimmers imagelink?
...
I should also be able to forward my drone imagelink to the team in a ONE-WAY communication so that the team has an image from the drone but they cannot command the drone because that’s my characters job.

Communication is two-way because, if nothing else, you need to have error-checking going across the network. Basically your commlink saying "Yes, I did get that data packet, please send the next one."

Keeping your teammates from controlling your drone should be easy. User-level accounts do nothing. Security-level accounts get things like the image feed you're trying to pass out to your teammates. Admin-level accounts can control the drone (and you, in theory, are the only one with admin access). You could also just route the signal from the drone through your commlink out to the team, rather than direct-linking them to the drone if you're worried about them hacking it (and why are you teamed with them if they would?), although that will eat up more active subscription slots on your commlink.

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 20 2006, 09:09 PM

So, how would I most effectively set up my subscription list?

Im having a hacker with multiple commlinks. Subscription list is as follows:

Commlink 1 (used for hacking) (Used for persona)
Civilian Commlink (SIN)
Commlink 2 (Firewall)
Honda Spirit
MCT Fly-Spy

I still got a few slots left and here's what I had planned.

Commlink 1 has it's signal turned off and access the matrix through Commlink 2 through legal access. The only way of hacking the character is by going through the "firewall" who has the actual matrix connection.

The idea is to use a Tiered PAN network by having the Firewall commlink be the commlink with an active signal rating that can access the matrix.With legal access codes I can log on to the Firewall without any need to subscribe it to my persona (see Passcodes SR4 page 215.)

Anyone trying to access and trace the hacker will be stopped cold by the firewall com who will have beefed up security.

The Civilian Commlink and Commlink 1 has agents prowling the Firewall (8 agents in total) doing spoof and analyze on it (unless im hacking, then im running 9 hacking programs on Commlink 1.)

In running 9 programs on Civilian Commlink and Commlink 1, thus having Response 4 on them instead of 5. The Firewall has a response of 5 and is focused on encryption and strong firewall.

The MCT Fly-Spy is connected to Commlink 1 and routes it's signal through the Firewall and relays it's camera view to the other team members.

Now, the Persona (according to the RAW)...

"In game terms, your persona maintains a subscription list
of nodes that you are accessing and that are allowed to establish
communication with you."

Does the above mean that in order for the rest of the team to gain access to video feed from my MCT Fly-SPY they must be subscribed to my Persona AND that I in turn must have them subscribed on my Persona as well?

Or do they have access to the video feed as long as they have my Firewall commlink subscribed to their Persona since I already have the Firewall subscribed to my Persona?

As long as I have the Firewall subscribed and they in turn have the Firewall subscribed to their own Personas we would be connected to the PAN of the Firewall. Devices connected to the Firewall would still be accessible through the Firewall since I have that commlink subscribed already instead of being forced to subscribe each and every device that wants access to Firewall commlink.

Opinion?

Hope this makes sense, it's abit late and im tired.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 20 2006, 11:09 PM

Jopp, problem I see with the setup is that in order for the MCT to be subscribed to C1, it would need to communicate to it but commands will come from C2 instead. You'd have to subscribe MCT to C2 instead. Tiered commlinks don't work too well in SR4 since the subscription list of the end device would need to be subscribed to the Drone, etc.

Something interesting to consider that might get this setup to work is to have an Agent in C2 Spoof/Edit all commands leaving C2 so they look as if they come from C1 instead.

You could subscribe MCT to C1 and when issuing commands from C2, MCT would think C1 was making requests instead of C2. Analyze would reveal C2 Access-ID so Spoofing C2 would fail, however Sniffer would reveal what's really going on.

It's a bit of a stretch I know.

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 21 2006, 05:21 AM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

Jopp, problem I see with the setup is that in order for the MCT to be subscribed to C1, it would need to communicate to it but commands will come from C2 instead.

I have to disagree on that. The commands will come from C1 but the signal carrier is C2. Otherwise someone contacting his drone on the other side of town by jumping through public nodes would have to subscribe those nodes as well in order for the drone to understand who sent the order. The information package would have a header indicating the originating node (in this case C1).

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 23 2006, 12:48 AM

There aren't really any rules in RAW for a wired Node controlling wireless devices.

My opinion is that the wired node (N1) would need to use a wireless node (N2) to control devices. I still think N2 would need to have those devices subscribed to itself, but could be controlled by N1 as well. This would mean you could Spoof N2 to control the devices.

I understand your real-life point but I am not sure how much of that has been captured in SR4 yet.

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 24 2006, 07:46 AM

Actually it does, it’s just regular matrix connections. The Persona has a subscription list that:

“In game terms, your persona maintains a subscription list of nodes that you are accessing and that are allowed to establish communication with you.” Page 212 SR4.

Now, this means that items connected to your subscription list is connected to your primary Commlink that is your PAN. Now, since the commcode for the commlink is the one the subscribed items listen to (or whatever ID they now use for Personas/Commlinks it means that you can connect legally to another commlink (by Passcode etc) and use it’s stronger signal to reach out to your toys.

The devices will recognize the controlling commlinks code and respond to it – the second commlink is just a node.

If there was no possibility in doing this then nodejumping would be impossible. Imagine that you have a drone across town and your commlink has a reach of 100 meters. You nodeskip through town in order to reach a node with a signal that is close enough to contact your drone.

If my idea of a no wi-fi enabled commlink with an extra commlink as a node cannot function then the matrix in itself wouldn’t work.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 24 2006, 08:09 AM

Viva la 10-Tier deep commlinks!

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 24 2006, 08:25 AM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

Viva la 10-Tier deep commlinks!

Well, that is exactly it – it’s scary. Ok, lugging around with 5-10 commlinks will be extreme but there’s nothing stopping someone from creating their own network of nodes – If the corps can have tiered network then so can you on a smaller scale.

You could also have a third commlink hardwired to another with just agents who has legal access to peek inside the other commlink and monitor it’s traffic – talk about paranoid security.

I can imagine a hacker having two commlinks and perhaps a third for his fake SIN but I have a hard time seeing other non-hackers walking around with more than two (one for running and one for SIN).

Still, the weak link in a 10 linked commlinks is money and actually security. As long as they bring down the commlink with the actual signal then you have no access until you activate the primary commlinks signal, or reboot the other one. Money is another thing. 10 rating 5/5 commlinks is gonna be around 50-80K, and they will be kinda obvious.

One way of not using commlinks is to upgrade the matrix attributes of items that could function as a node (ok, almost everything can but let’s try using electronic devices and not clothing).

AR gloves, Glasses, Guns (smartlink) and other accessories could be upgraded to have a higher matrix attributes (response mostly) and loaded with agents and thus function as nodes. So you could go:

Commlink-AR Gloves-Glasses-Wi-Fi Commlink. Probably cheaper than using multiple commlinks but cheaper. If you want to go multiple commlinks you would need a good one so it could boost it’s defenses with Encryption and Databombs, Agents etc.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 24 2006, 04:55 PM

I'm still thinking that the actual end-Node (#10) that passes along the signal from the nested Node (#1) could be spoofed. Although I dounderstand your points about this happening or not it could put the brakes on deeply-nested nodes. And while spoofing is handy, it's not as beneficial as getting "root" of the controlling node.

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 25 2006, 05:38 AM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

I do believe that one can only spoof actual drones and not devices. In the case of drones the tiered network is moot since you can always spoof them (after finding and decrypting their signal)

You would have to hack the #10 first and then you could try to find the signal to the device you seek and hack them. The main thing with tiered commlinks is that the #1 is more protected from hacking so that your hacker don't need to focus his commlink on defense like encryption, spoofing etc as you have 4+ agents spoofin the #10 commlink all the time since that's the actual signal.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 25 2006, 04:52 PM

QUOTE (The Jopp)

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Jul 24 2006, 04:55 PM)

It's the wired part that threw me there. Of course it's much harder to spoof a nested node since you can't simply do a Matrix Perception Test to find its Access-ID. Although you could Sniff the traffic and look at the traffic coming out of the end-Node and eventually nail down the Access-ID for Node-1.

Can't you Spoof a signal (i.e. "Fake Traffic") and in essence, isn't that what Spoofing is? Acting like something you're not?

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 25 2006, 05:43 PM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

It's the wired part that threw me there. Of course it's much harder to spoof a nested node since you can't simply do a Matrix Perception Test to find its Access-ID.

Hmm, I think there is a misunderstanding here. The access ID will be C1 since I DO log on with it, I just hop into C2 as my first node to access. There is no problem for you to do a matrix perception test to find the access ID (persona).