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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Question for Raygun

Posted by: Foreigner Jul 20 2006, 05:56 PM

Raygun:

I was just perusing your site and, just in case I missed anything--

do you have any rules regarding wildcat cartridges (non-standard cartridges, I mean), and handloaded ammunition?

Thanks in advance.

--Foreigner

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jul 21 2006, 06:29 AM

With the grainyness of SR rules, handloading should be a simple cost saving. Maybe 15% off regular ammo costs? Would require at least 1 (or maybe 2) in a relevant skill and the appropriate tools ('shop' sized?, probably too bit to fit in a bag, so can't be kit sized).

For damange and range of cartridges not canonized by Raygun, just make something up, he has enough sample points that just about anything not already statted up can be interpolated.

Posted by: mfb Jul 21 2006, 06:34 AM

maybe for really well-formed cartridges, you could get a -1TN at extreme range or somesuch.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jul 21 2006, 08:20 AM

Better to extend the range categories, 3-5% increase maybe?

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 21 2006, 08:44 AM

Why not just use existing rules for match ammo? Handloading really has no place in combat, though, unless your setting is post apocalyptic or undersupplied partisan insurgency.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 21 2006, 09:25 AM

Post-apocalypse is likelier, I think. I doubt any actual insurgency has ever relied on handloading ammunition to any significant degree. Anyway, the only real difference rules-wise would be acquisition.

Posted by: Foreigner Jul 21 2006, 12:30 PM

Thanks, everybody.

A.E.: That's pretty much what I figured, but I thought I'd ask the resident authority on firearms in SR just to be sure.

--Foreigner

Posted by: PlainWhiteSocks Jul 21 2006, 04:11 PM

Just a thought. It might be possible to fit the needed tools into a small bag if you only had to work with 1-2 calibers. This would include a small press, power measure (scale) and prime/deprime tool that may or may not be part of the press. Using this would probably make the process very slow. Maybe something like 3-4 hours/50 rounds possibly slower if it was a threaded press instead of a leverage press. Something like the Lyman tools in use in the early 20th century.

I doubt the average runner (is there such a thing?) would have much use for it. I imagined this to be in use by some crazed fanatic making exotic material bullets, like the holy werewolf hunter making cartridges with little crosses on them and silver bullets at his basement shrine.

Posted by: otomik Jul 23 2006, 02:17 PM

QUOTE (PlainWhiteSocks)

I doubt the average runner (is there such a thing?) would have much use for it. I imagined this to be in use by some crazed fanatic making exotic material bullets, like the holy werewolf hunter making cartridges with little crosses on them and silver bullets at his basement shrine.

In some of our earlier discussions a few pistols like the CZ-52 came up which is capable of firing a powerful SMG-type load of 7.62x25mm Tokarev. Raygun ended up buying one, a lot of people have talked about it being the average joe's FN57 pistol. Some people have continued to play with the Tokarev cartridge, a saboted version called .22 Reed Express is now available. with the gun laws and general distrust of authority themes going on in SR it seems like it would be difficult to get ammunition that could pierce body armor. The discussion eventually came to hypothetical homebrew cartridges such as the .30 Dumpshock (10mm necked down to .30 caliber to take the commonly available steel core AK-47 bullet or saboted to take the 5.56mm NATO SS109 bullet). Today CNC machines have turned gun making into a cottage industry once again, which is really good news for SR4 players that have RFID's in everything. I think handloading would actually be very common to runners because the pistols they so frequently use againsted armored opponents are unlikely to fire the same ammo that a corrupt government would allow it's citizens to have or even simply that citizens would find a shadowrunner's pistol undesirable (7.62x25mm Tokarev versus .45ACP anyone?). Any brit's on this board may be somewhat familiar with the phenomenon of criminals transforming Brocock airguns into working pistols firing .22LR, I think SR would be similar, you can't uninvent the gun.

http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/index.php

Posted by: Raygun Jul 25 2006, 07:26 AM

Wait wait wait!! Uh... Yeah.

I don't have and special rules for wildcatting or handloading. With most wildcats, you're looking at maybe a 10-20% increase in velocity over a parent case. There's really not a lot of reason to make rules for that kind of thing. You give it a +1 Power, or bump it up a range level and call it whatever and that's pretty much all you'd need to do as far as that goes.

But I do have rules for a few specialized wildcat cartridges, namely the Whisper series. They're in the Ammunition by Caliber section.

As far as handloading rules, you could say that with a Handloading Kit (say, like a http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=624416, at about 100¥ with a couple of sets of dies, and it will fit in a backpack) you could pump out, say, 50 rounds an hour. With a Handloading Shop (like a http://dillonprecision.com/template/p.cfm?maj=24&dyn=1&cookieClean=1, about 600¥) you could do about 1,000 rounds and hour, and with a Handloading Factory (20,000¥) you could pump out, say, 50,000 rounds an hour. There could be all kinds of levels between, it's up to you. With the kit and shop, you could also throw some skill into it to bump up the rds/hr count.

QUOTE (otomik)

It is a pretty fun gun, and so far has gone through about 800 rounds without a single hiccup. Much more than I can say for the 1911. I have thought a lot about how to make it a better gun, and that pretty much involves an entirely new lower. Ergonomics and trigger pull suck complete ass. Regardless, it was still a great buy, I say.

QUOTE

Some people have continued to play with the Tokarev cartridge, a saboted version called .22 Reed Express is now available.

The sabot version of the 7.62x25mm is the .223 Timbs (why it has its own name, I don't know). The .22 Reed Express is a necked-down 7.62x25mm, or .223 BOZ-lite, and is pretty much identical to what I had in mind for the .227 HK. Neat, though. $210 for a drop-in barrel (twice as much as I paid for the gun!). Hmm...

QUOTE

http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/index.php

In Dillon? I was just there a few weeks ago. Never heard of these guys.

Posted by: otomik Jul 26 2006, 10:07 PM

didn't mean to steal your thunder or anything raygun, you answered some of my earliest real questions about guns, I remember asking what a "slide" is on a pistol.

QUOTE

In Dillon? I was just there a few weeks ago. Never heard of these guys.

yeah, there was some bruha surrounding their gun build and ice cream social, I love the concept, to actually make your own 1911 or AR from what is legally a hunk of steel. Maybe a more realistic shadowrunner wouldn't even use a brand name gun, the cottage gun industry would be very open source (like in john browning's day), one could cobble together most anything from existing design elements.

Posted by: Raygun Jul 28 2006, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (otomik @ Jul 26 2006, 10:07 PM)

didn't mean to steal your thunder or anything raygun, you answered some of my earliest real questions about guns, I remember asking what a "slide" is on a pistol.

No thunder considered stolen. I'm glad some of the more knowledgeable people are around to answer questions here. I haven't been spending a lot of time in here lately. Been adding to Wikipedia.

QUOTE

I do agree that newer technologies would make it easier to do such a thing, I just don't think any country in the future would allow it. With all the changing of nations in SR, I doubt the new countries would allow such a thing the way the US does now (ZERO Second Amendment-type protections). But that's just me, I guess.