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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Hacking my own Skillwires
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 21 2006, 01:14 AM
So while thinking about and looking endless crap for the madness that is that AR debate I thought of something that piqued my interest.
Hot sim allows you to process information by pumping your brain full of high-tech energy stuff. It makes you faster. The data becomes one with you. What if that data was input from real life, though? What if I'm recieving my five senses through other sources than my organs (screw OR-gans). A camera is recording trid. Microphone is recording sound. My olfactory sensor is smelling. My touch link is even sensing the world around me, turning things like the temperature to raw data. Now, in VR I take all of those feeds and "sense" them. In Hot-sim I could even notice things among the recorded data my pathertic organs wouldn't.
That's great and all, but not very practical, right? There's still a -6 mod for acting on any of that info with my body. BUT, could I control my skillwires while doing this Hot-sim Perception, couldn't I?
Now add all the enhanced sensory information, AR overlays like building schematics and signal locations, and crossreference this into my skillwires couldn't my skillswires take actions according to that information?
Here's the setup: I'm receiving sensory information via peripherals, enhanced by my hot-sim. Overlays further clairfy this info. All that is processed and my skillwires act accordingly. They override my motor functions to take action. I have already disabled the Hot-Sim limiter on RL actions, BTW.
It would be like riding in a big fleshy robot while being on brain-boosting drugs. Rigging yourself via Hot-sim. The periphrals would be neccesary to act, of course.
Why wouldn't something like this work?
Would I receive all three Hot Sim passes?
Would I need a control rig and rigger adaptations?
Could I just rig my own skillwires and use my normal att+skill?
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Completely different thought:
OOO, could I fix my cyber arm with a drone sensor and use that to Acitve target things? Can people use drone radar? Would the sensor/radar even have to be on the arm? Couldn't the drone and arm communicate and coordinate: The drone giving the arm/me radar feef and guiding my hand?
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 21 2006, 01:17 AM
Oh, I was thinking of using Knowsoft and stuff too to be all Grammaton Cleric-like. You know, Equilibrium. Christian Bale rocks everything he is in.
Posted by: thegrymone Jul 21 2006, 01:24 AM
I see a potential for a particular nasty (and possible moral issue) baddie!
With the SR4 rules you can somewhat get closer to an actual full on cyborg than in past versions. What if a guy with a whole lot of 'ware (arms, legs, organs, sim sense rig, eyes, vox, etc) had a virus, spontaneous phenomenon, or even his "evil" sub-conscious decided to take over his body via this implants and strove to further the full cyborg transformation and thus becomes an antagonist of sorts in its quest for better parts and new cyber replacements for its remaining "flesh". (The morale issue is the either destroy the cybernetic monster or try to save the deteriorating human trapped inside).
Posted by: Wiseman Jul 21 2006, 01:28 AM
What you need is a touch link. Thats what it does. helps monitor your functions and body state while in the matrix or elsewhere (rigging)
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 21 2006, 01:31 AM
I have touch link in the description.
More importantly, can I use skillwires without directly controlling them?
Can I rig them?
Posted by: Wiseman Jul 21 2006, 01:33 AM
Whoa, should have finished reading. Thats insane, technically it wouldn't work unless the body could move that fast using wired reflexes.
But the question you brought up is madness, can you VR into an adapted/modified person with a touch link, skillwires, wired reflexes, and a cranial bomb for good measure.
Can it be done? I dunno but alot of the background stuff (deus and what have you) seems to imply you can, hell its how he survived the Renraku Arcology
Posted by: Wiseman Jul 21 2006, 01:35 AM
Hell, I'd imagine you could program em with agents and give people pilot ratings
Posted by: AngelWuff Jul 21 2006, 01:37 AM
theoretically, a power assisted suit could do that.... rig into it to get the full passes... but I'm the type of mean person that would allow it, but have it chance stressing out your meatbod inside. though hey, just make a humanoid robot and rig through that the whole time =D
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 21 2006, 01:52 AM
Yep, I thought about that. That would probably cost a decent amount of cred to make a believeable one, though.
Hmm...Can drones use Activesofts? Correction, Can drones with similar, human-like anatomy use activesofts? Would it require a special drone-friendly Activesoft that couldn't be used by humans?
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 21 2006, 01:53 AM
Believeable as in Human-like, synthetic.
Posted by: Wiseman Jul 21 2006, 01:55 AM
I do remember that book on cybermancy that took what you could do with a human body and cyberware beyond essence to a new extreme.
I don't see why you couldn't "try" to do any of it. "Try" only because it'd make a good plot whether you managed to succeed or died/dismembered trying
Posted by: Lagomorph Jul 21 2006, 05:43 PM
Also, with eyes, ears, skillwires and a sim rig, connected to the commlink, you could rig your buddies.
Posted by: Geekkake Jul 21 2006, 07:39 PM
While Skillwires are no doubt hackable, they're not riggable. For the thousanth time, let me explain.
Skillwires don't control the body. You don't mentally command your skillwires to shoot a guy, and it moves your arm and you shoot a guy. Skillwires provide varying levels of simulated personal experience with the skill in question. I'd imagine that the "wires" involved are more along the lines of very flexible nerve and muscle augmentations that change shape when a new soft is accessed. This change better facilitates simulating the "muscle memory" created by the vast repetitions involved in developing a physical skill. Coupled with a storehouse of data in the program itself, it allows the entire system to reasonably simulate a skill in a competent, but uninspired way.
Consequently, you can't rig a man's Skillwire system to make him dance or shoot himself in the face. You can't swap out a man's ActiveSoft and make him uncontrollably start singing Broadway hits when he intended to throttle the life out of you, which is probably a common occurrence. At best, you can rig his Skillwire to stop accepting data from the ActiveSoft.
Someone chisel this shit in stone or make a goddamned plaque or something, so we don't have to keep going over it.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 22 2006, 12:32 AM
Ouch. If you're that tired of the question (which I did search for answers for before posting) there's no need to answer. Just igonre it, please. It's much better than getting snapped at, jeez.
Posted by: Dender Jul 22 2006, 02:09 AM
hmm... sounds like an interesting idea. Since a skillwire provides a muscle memory, which for those of you who might not be familiar with the term, is what happens when you've practiced something so much that your body reacts without you thinking to consider it. its like going on autopilot.
An over dramatic example would be the person in a fight who "just won't go down" despite being beaten senseless or even unconcious because "they've trained so much, its their body moving without thought".
So, with something as invasive as skillwires to send false data to your arms and legs to help you do everything from running faster to shooting more accurately, and all from a storage device, i'd say Yes, this could be done. However, i'd put a limiter on the skills the erm... pilot could use of the rating of the skillwire. And possibly, for balance purposes, require a special skillsoft (perhaps called Puppeteer). meaning you'd have to first upload it to someone.
its a scary world where someone can buy a program to be able to do things better with their hands, its scarier when that conveiniece turns into a security issue. I think that a concious person should be allowed to resist perhaps using willpower or logic
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 22 2006, 03:06 AM
I'm more interested in using Hot-sim's level of brain activity in the real world for myself. NO, i don't just want cheap IPs. I want to think faster. Think Advanced AR.
Posted by: Dender Jul 22 2006, 05:30 AM
i'll freely admit i'm an evil bastard, so sure, if i was running, i'd allow you to do that.
But i'd point out that when you're "jumped into" a drone, you take damage when they take damage, so in effect, you'd take double damage from each successful attack against you.
I'd also say that you couldn't use those extra passes unless you had wired reflexes without risking serious damage, as your neural system can't naturally process signals that fast.
think seizure
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 22 2006, 01:05 PM
How do Hot-simmers do it then?
Posted by: Wiseman Jul 22 2006, 04:32 PM
man that guy was mad.
I didn't know their were skillwire rules gangers in these parts. Lets keep our heads down.
seriously though, I thought it was an exercise of imagination to think about what'd it take to make someone a puppet (the tech is there). yup, nothing in RAW says you can do that stuff.
So game wise, Renraku is at it again with their new Matrix/Human interface known as Puppet wires! Only used in experiments with canines thus far, these wires fire neuro pulses that actually & totally control the users muscles by direct stimulation.
Might be your chance to realize your dream...Can he take on Renraku's elite security, will these Puppet Wires be the answer or just some buggy cutting edge tech, will he risk installing them?
Sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me.
Posted by: Wiseman Jul 22 2006, 04:34 PM
maybe Renraku leaked him the information to have their first willing human test subject and secretly maintained a "backdoor" access code so to speak.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 22 2006, 06:02 PM
Geekake the "skillwire rules ganger"? 
What an absurd gang. That more weird than the "crips".
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 23 2006, 02:20 PM
| QUOTE (Geekkake) |
| Skillwires don't control the body. You don't mentally command your skillwires to shoot a guy, and it moves your arm and you shoot a guy. Skillwires provide varying levels of simulated personal experience with the skill in question. I'd imagine that the "wires" involved are more along the lines of very flexible nerve and muscle augmentations that change shape when a new soft is accessed. This change better facilitates simulating the "muscle memory" created by the vast repetitions involved in developing a physical skill. |
Correctly classed, skillwires would be headware.
'Muscle Memory' is just a layman's term for motor memory, which is entirely stored in the brain.
So, skillwires allow your brain to remember movements it has never learned.
Posted by: Serbitar Jul 23 2006, 03:14 PM
This is not doable as SR4 has no model that unifies:
vehicles -> drones -> cyborgs -> cyberware -> humans
brain -> vr -> reflexes -> body -> ar
brain -> vr -> vehicle reaction-> vehicle reflexes
SR4 uses different mdoels that produce different results depending from what original state you are approaching another state (for example: building a cyborg from a human produces other results than building an anthroform starting from a drone).
SR5 should have such a unified model, where everything is the extreme case of some other approach and everything is compatible and comparable.
A unified reflex/reaction speed model should for example:
define a maxmium "brain speed":
- reduce real world refelxes because of nervous system limitations limitation
-reduce real world speed because of muscle/body limitations
- make the nervous system limitations smaller to a certain limit using reflex enhancers
- allow jumped in riggers to act by maximum brain speed reduced by the "body" of the drone
-define AR by using the reduced body speed and reduce it further depending on input method (keyboard, gloves . ..)
and so forth.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 23 2006, 08:42 PM
Okay, that's cool. I had read enough here to glean that people were very opposed to the hacking and remote controlling of cyberware so I wanted to ask whether I could enable my skillwires to be accessed "remotely" by me. But that's totally okay that I can't.
"-define AR by using the reduced body speed and reduce it further depending on input method (keyboard, gloves . ..)"
I like that idea, but a whole other edition for that kind of rule to come out? I sure hope not. There should be distinctions made before then I hope. I think "the speed of thought" and what exactly enhances it should be defined as soon as possible.
Posted by: Serbitar Jul 23 2006, 09:13 PM
Wait 7 years for SR5 to come out (and pray that RPG designers learn a thing or two, hopefully some maths and statistics). No way to do this in SR4. Such kind of thing has to be designed from start.
Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 23 2006, 09:15 PM
Bummer
Posted by: Taki Jul 23 2006, 10:26 PM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Correctly classed, skillwires would be headware. 'Muscle Memory' is just a layman's term for motor memory, which is entirely stored in the brain. So, skillwires allow your brain to remember movements it has never learned. |
This is simplifying to much the reality.
Different inputs come from both the muscle (neural muscular fiber), and from ligaments and joints, and some movement are integrated in local area like the spine, especially for trained reflexes (the shorter the way the signal goes, the faster the reaction).
So skillwires have to be localised both in the head and at least in the spine too.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 23 2006, 11:01 PM
IIRC, the major difference between simple reflexes and learend one was that the latter were stored in the brain, not the spine.
The positioning recogniton system of the body would be another thing, but it's is transmitted to the brain anyway?
Posted by: Taki Jul 24 2006, 08:08 AM
A reflex is a short circuit with pre-defined reaction. While that signal goes back from the spine to the muscle, the signal from the body sensors isn't stopped and is brought to the brain where it is integrated, and another response can be send. That second response need of course more time to make the muscle move, so that reaction will arrive after the muscular reflex begin it is more adapted than the reflex (which is a pre-defined move).
Anyway learning the reflexes is part of the training ! This is very important in fact to get optimised quick pre-defined reaction.
The spatial recognition use different sensor (ligament, tendon, skin ... )
It may induce reflex like anytime one articulation is is in it extreme position, the antagonist muscle react to avoid being injured.
Not very sure I am clear and ok with english ... hope that help
Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 24 2006, 10:16 PM
Just wait till move-by-wire comes back 
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 24 2006, 10:28 PM
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| A reflex is a short circuit with pre-defined reaction. |
True... and as the spinal cord doesn't store any infomation, any motion patterns that are trained until they become automatic (e.g. learned "reflexes") are stored in the cerebellum.
Do that's the place where skillwires would be.
Posted by: 2bit Jul 24 2006, 10:44 PM
that's cool, sam.
I think it wouldn't work because of the skillwires reason given above, which means that since you can't "rig yourself" via your skillwires, you'd have to "rig yourself" via your brain, but since that's also what you're using to do the rigging, I don't see it working. If you had another brain, maybe you could use that to rig the first one connected to the body. Sooo... I guess what I'm saying is grow another brain, or have someone else ride you.
If it were possible, though, I'd say Hot Sim would give you 2 extra IP's but the body you're jumped into would need WR2 to take advantage of your extra IP's. If not, you could jump out into 'captain's chair' mode and play minesweeper with your extra IP's.
Posted by: Taki Jul 25 2006, 12:20 AM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
True... and as the spinal cord doesn't store any infomation, any motion patterns that are trained until they become automatic (e.g. learned "reflexes") are stored in the cerebellum. Do that's the place where skillwires would be. |
You are speaking of skillwire without reflex
? It seriously slow down your reaction, I don't believe it could be as efficient as a level 4 skill. By the way the spinal chord does store information. The neurone conformation is information.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 25 2006, 07:46 AM
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| You are speaking of skillwire without reflex |
No. As you already said, reflexes happen anyways, long before trained movements.
Skillwires supply the user with movement training trough allowing the brain to access skillsofts.
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| By the way the spinal chord does store information. The neurone conformation is information. |
Too, indeed... but I don't remember learning advanced motor skills (those represented trough Skills) rearranged the spinal cord.
Posted by: Taki Jul 25 2006, 09:30 AM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 25 2006, 02:46 AM) |
| No. As you already said, reflexes happen anyways, long before trained movements. Skillwires supply the user with movement training trough allowing the brain to access skillsofts. |
In your explanation skillwire should just be a [edit !] microchip.
But ! Reflexes are trained movements has well : try to tell a aikidoka or judoka she hasn't replace through training her old falling reflexes by news moves which are much more efficient.
Skillwire stored only in the brain shouldn't give such reflexes. You would be very dangerous as a driver too, since your reaction could be twice as long to arrive than other one (braking is not a commun reflexe- you need training to learn it)
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 25 2006, 09:39 AM
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| In your explanation skillwire should just be a [edit !] microchip. |
..just a microchip with extensive wiring across the brain, yeah.
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| But ! Reflexes are trained movements has well : try to tell a aikidoka or judoka she hasn't replace through training her old falling reflexes by news moves which are much more efficient. |
She hasn't - her reflexes (in the basic biological meaning) are still the same, just the movement patterns following them (when the cerebrellum responds) are more efficient.
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| Skillwire stored only in the brain shouldn't give such reflexes. You would be very dangerous as a driver too, since your reaction could be twice as long to arrive than other one (braking is not a commun reflexe- you need training to learn it) |
Of course they would - the cerebrellum is where doing things like climbing stairs or driving bycicle are stored and processed.
Posted by: Taki Jul 25 2006, 10:20 AM
I really thought the short time (and circuit) response is (slowy) changed by training (but I may be wrong on that) -
EDIT : thanks for the clarification Moon Hawk !
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 25 2006, 02:39 PM
The spinal cord can definitely "learn". Spinalized cats have been taught to walk by training the leg movement combined with stimulation on their feet. (Spinalized means their spinal cords were cut, completely, so absolutely no information gets from the brain to the lower spinal cord or back) We're talking about adult animals, here. Similar research is being done with humans. Of course, it's just a very complex learned reflex, but the example Taki gave is also extremely appropriate. When your body takes a fall it's your spinal cord that does all the administration. It's usually over before your brain catches up to what's happening. People can learn to fall more efficiently. Sure, part of that is in the brain, which is why a martial artist can take a fall better when they see it coming than when they can't. But the reason they can STILL take an unexpected fall better than an untrained person is because of the training in their spinal cord. The brain and the spinal cord make up the CNS, not just the brain.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 25 2006, 05:09 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| The spinal cord can definitely "learn". |
AFAIS, that still seems to be an area of research, which results look the less impressive the more complicated the CNS gets.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Spinalized cats have been taught to walk by training the leg movement combined with stimulation on their feet. |
More like walking patterns - they had to be stabilized.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| When your body takes a fall it's your spinal cord that does all the administration. It's usually over before your brain catches up to what's happening. People can learn to fall more efficiently. Sure, part of that is in the brain, which is why a martial artist can take a fall better when they see it coming than when they can't. But the reason they can STILL take an unexpected fall better than an untrained person is because of the training in their spinal cord. |
When you stagger, previous to falling, the spinal cord tries to compensate directly through extending the muscle.
Then the brain steps in and uses it's ability to balance - if you still fall, your movements are already under the control of the brain.
Posted by: Taki Jul 25 2006, 05:28 PM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
When you stagger, previous to falling, the spinal cord tries to compensate directly through extending the muscle. Then the brain steps in and uses it's ability to balance - if you still fall, your movements are already under the control of the brain. |
That is the standard reflex. Different ones could be learned, which is to relax the legs (just as if sitting) for the very first while of the reaction.
My behaviour when I lose my balance has changed since I practice martial art. My first reaction in that situation was to extend the body and hardenend the joints articulations. Now I do the opposit.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 25 2006, 06:07 PM
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||||||
AFAIS, that still seems to be an area of research, which results look the less impressive the more complicated the CNS gets.
More like walking patterns - they had to be stabilized.
When you stagger, previous to falling, the spinal cord tries to compensate directly through extending the muscle. Then the brain steps in and uses it's ability to balance - if you still fall, your movements are already under the control of the brain. |
Believe me. I am quite aware of how those experiments went. I apologize if, in my attempt to summarize, I misrepresented. The point is that the behavior changed over time, without the input of the brain. I'm not saying the spine can learn to walk a tightrope, or even to walk unsupported. It can't. But it can learn. I'm not saying the the spinal cord is responsible for everything, I am just disagreeing with people who are saying that the brain is responsible for everything. Skillwires might well work without anything at all in the spinal cord. They certainly wouldn't work without anything in the brain, because the brain is way, WAY more important to learning than the spinal cord. But the argument that skillwires definitely don't need anything in the spinal cord because the brain is 100% responsible for learning is not correct. However, again, just to be clear, that does not mean that skillwires definitely do need something in the spine.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 25 2006, 06:08 PM
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| That is the standard reflex. |
That's a simple reflex (ein Eigenreflex AFAIR), and those are 'hardwired' - you are born with them and they stay the same.
| QUOTE (Taki) |
| Different ones could be learned, which is to relax the legs (just as if sitting) for the very first while of the reaction. |
Of the reaction, indeed - not the reflex. Reactions happen after the brain takes over, and those can be learned and changed.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 25 2006, 06:16 PM
You are oversimplifying. There are simple reflexes that can't change. Things like stretch receptors and the "knee jerk" reflex. There are reactions that are governed by the brain, as well. But there is also a level of reaction/reflex (it gets a little fuzzy which it is, depending on how you want to define them) in betwee, that is controlled by the spine, not the brain, and can be trained. Research is still unclear on exactly how much the spine can handle, but it is unambiguous that the spine can be trained to some degree. Also, in normal cases, the spine is also receiving information from the brain at the time it received information from the body that modulates its' response, so that messes with the results and makes it hard to attribute each's contribution, but the spine's contribution is definitely not 0.0% You can argue that it is not significant to the problem of skillwires, but not that it doesn't exist.
Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 25 2006, 06:17 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| The point is that the behavior changed over time, without the input of the brain. I'm not saying the spine can learn to walk a tightrope, or even to walk unsupported. It can't. But it can learn. I'm not saying the the spinal cord is responsible for everything, I am just disagreeing with people who are saying that the brain is responsible for everything. |
True - it's indeed interesting to know that the spinal cord of mammals has such an ability that usually is only attributed to insects.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| You are oversimplifying. There are simple reflexes that can't change. Things like stretch receptors and the "knee jerk" reflex. There are reactions that are governed by the brain, as well. But there is also a level of reaction/reflex (it gets a little fuzzy which it is, depending on how you want to define them) in betwee, that is controlled by the spine, not the brain, and can be trained. |
Sorry - of course the NS isn't strictly seperated.
IIRC, tripping involves the "knee jerk" reflex which be changed through training, though consecutive reactions can.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 25 2006, 06:22 PM
Indeed. Nature tends not to remove those lower control levels. It simply adds new, more complex levels on top of them that supercede them in most cases. But the primitive behaviors and controls are still in there, if you manage to surpress the newer ones. The burning question is how much those old controls still operate and are modulated by the higher-level functions vs. how much they are completely surpressed and superceded.
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