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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ More probably simple questions

Posted by: irdeggman Jul 21 2006, 01:38 AM

Here is one that at least causes me questions.

Pg 332 (2nd printing) - under table.

The cost of Eye Recording Unit is listed as 2000 and the cost of Image Link is listed as 500.

Both have the * stating that these are included in the Cybereyes basic system. The cost of the Cybereyes basic system (rating 1 - minimum rating) is listed as 500. the text under cybereyes basic systems states that both the image link and eye recording unit are included (at no extra cost) with the Cybereyes basic system.

Some of these numbers appear to be wrong.

I guess that these prices are given to add the items to other equipment - but that means that the cybereyes basic system is really good bargain for 500 (worth 2500 by individual components alone).

I'm sure I'll come up with more as I wade through the material in more depth.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 21 2006, 01:43 AM

You can get both Recording units and Image link separate from eyes. The basic systems are cheaper but you might not want full replacements. For instance, if I ONLY wanted Image link and Recorders it would only cost .2 essence and I keep my natural vision (like low-light for elves).

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 21 2006, 02:42 AM

It makes sense if you think of the cost of cyber being more than the physical parts. Adding an image link and recording unit to living eyeballs is a trickier procedure than replacing eyes with cybereyes with an image link and recording unit.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 21 2006, 09:55 AM

yep, a cybereye would have most of the required electronics in place allready for those two extra's. its just a matter of tapping into the image sensor (for the recording bit) and the DNI (for the image link bit).

biggest question is: can you buy a cybereye (noit have it installed), rip out the recording and image link electronics, and then sell said electronics as full implants?

could turn into the SR4 version of the survivor knife

Posted by: Serbitar Jul 21 2006, 11:11 AM

I would say: Surgery costs are included in cyberware price tags.

Thats why the "rip out and sell" procedure would not work in my world.

Posted by: irdeggman Jul 21 2006, 11:48 AM

QUOTE (Serbitar)

I would say: Surgery costs are included in cyberware price tags.

Thats why the "rip out and sell" procedure would not work in my world.

Ahh but as I read the text:

Pg 332 states that eye ware either takes up capacity in a cybereye or essence in a natural eye. So as I read it that means the cost for items automatically included in the cybereye basic system is supposed to be “0” and the capacity utilized is likewise “0”. The cost listed is applied when the eye ware is applied to a natural eye and the essence cost is applied while the capcity is ignored.

This means that the cybereye basic system is a tremendous value and as hobgoblin points out there is a real potential to scavange the cybereyes and make a huge profit. It appears to me that the cost of the eye recording unit is most likely priced too high and should reasonably be in the 500 (or less) range to keep in line with what kind of “bargain” the cybereye basic systems are and to prevent the cannibalizing and abuse by players to make a profit on things.

I mean fencing the gear for parts would yield 30% of the cost (modified by negotiation) but since the cybereye basic system costs 500 and the parts are valued at 2500 that yields a basic profit of 250 most of the time. So a character can buy the cybereye basic unit and turn around and sell it for parts at a pretty good profit on a routine basis. If the cost of the eye recording unit is reduce to 500 then the total parts value of the cybereye basic unit is 1000 and that yield a loss of 200 if scavenged for parts – something that seems reasonable.

There is no listing for "labor" for pretty much any device, if there is supposed to be one then how do the "fencing" rules apply?

Posted by: Butterblume Jul 21 2006, 12:28 PM

This logic is askew.

To look at it from another angle: if it would be possible to make a profit this way, some people would do it, most certainly lowering the price for the natural-eye implants along the way. Up to the point where it wouldn't be profitable any more.

So one must conclude, there's no profit in it .

Posted by: Serbitar Jul 21 2006, 12:43 PM

In my world, fencing with cyberware and used cyberware is totally up to the gm, as he determines the "surgery costs". Of do you really think that all the money in aluminium bone lacing goes into the value of the aluminium and not into surgery costs?

Posted by: irdeggman Jul 21 2006, 04:25 PM

QUOTE (Serbitar)

I was only bringing up a point in the text of the book.

Many times logic and rules text don't relate.

As I pointed out if the number listed for eye recording unit is too high in comparison to the overall mix of things.

It is part of the cyberware basic package. That level 1 package costs 500 and consists of 2 pieces of cyberware (in addition to other allowing slots for more).

Eye recording unit which costs 2000

and

Image Link which costs 500

Using the "surgery" costs logic - why would an eye recording unit have more extensive surgery than an Image Link?

Both have the same essence cost so that means they have the same intrusive effect on the body.

If the cost of the eye recording unit is reduced to be in line with the image link then everything works out fine and the GM can apply any "surgery" costs/effects consistently.

Posted by: Aaron Jul 21 2006, 05:42 PM

Fencing most cyberware would be hard, I think. All biomedical appliances are custom-fit to the wearer/implantee. A cyber-eye that fits my skull is most likely not going to fit yours. Ditto an arm. Anything with a direct neural interface, such as wired reflexes or skill wires, in one body is going to operate with a completely different neural map in a different body. I imagine that one could easily use second-hand cyberware as spare parts, but holding some 'ware for sale just in case somebody that could use it comes along is a long-shot gamble, at best.

That being said, there are a few cyberware systems that could be tranfserred directly from one (ex-)person to another. As far as I can tell they are:

Data Lock
Tooth Storage Compartment
Tooth Breakable Compartment
Dermal Plating (if going from a larger donor to a smaller recipient)

Everything else would be spare parts.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 21 2006, 06:38 PM

irdeggman, the text is fine. It's your logic that's lacking. Essence loss is not a measure of the surgery required - it's just the invasiveness on the body. The cost of the parts is only a couple hundred. Players trying to sell an eye recording unit will get pennies because of this. There is no abuse.

Posted by: irdeggman Jul 21 2006, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon)

How can you say my logic is lacking?

My logic was for equating essence (i.e., invasiveness) to surgery (which is also invasive). That is to say that the amount of invasiveness includes that caused by surgery - so the 2 components should be roughly equivalent as vfar as the invasiveness on the body goes.

My question to you would be how do you calculate the "surgery costs" of items?

And why oh why does the recording unit cost 4 times as much as the image link?

If surgery is not part of the invasiveness measured by essence then what is the essence cost of surgery?

What is the surgery cost of an item?

Should it very based soley on cost?

Should it very based on essence cost?

Is it an arbitrary number being applied?

If the cost of the parts is only a couple hundred - how is this determined consistently?

I think a better measure of the difficulty of the surgery would be to use the essence cost (instead of the nuyen cost listed) since that is measuring the invasiveness on a body. Invasive surgery is always more difficult and risky than non-invasive surgery - and costs more to boot.

Posted by: ornot Jul 24 2006, 04:18 AM

There may well be rules for surgery costs and quite possibly rules for designing your own 'ware in armoury. Whether or not the GM wants to determine surgery costs or just use the base value of the 'ware listed as inclusive of surgery, depends on how much of a money sink he needs.

If my players were looting everything in sight and accumulating more money than I was comfortable with then surgery costs would probably increase (among other expenses eg. blackmarket price rises due to a govt crackdown.)

As for claiming cybereyes and pulling out the parts for image-link and eye-recording device to sell seperately, that suggests that the standalone 'ware and the integrated 'ware are interchangable. This is not stated anywhere, and the price difference suggests they are quite different pieces of 'ware.

Alternatively it might just be an error on the part of the editors, the price containing too many 0s or on playtesting it being decided that the image link and recording unit be intergrated into the eye at no cost, as everyone always bought them, and the table not being updated.

Posted by: Dender Jul 24 2006, 07:17 AM

hey, this reminds me of the time i got a new harddrive

A play in one act: "Why this scheme won't work"

me: "hey, i got this great new harddrive, can you guys hook it up for me? i dunno if it works"

techguy: "sure, lets see it"
*I hand them the harddrive*

tg: "aaah, a new laptop harddrive... and there's some mobo still attached... Alrighty, so, where's the laptop?"

me: "Oh, i left my tower out in the car, its kinda heavy and i wanted to make sure you could install it"

tg: "You want me to install this laptop harddrive... into a desktop computer..."

~fin~

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 24 2006, 07:43 AM

QUOTE (Aaron)

Cybereyes are like shoes. You go to the cybereye store in the mall an dthey pull out this wierd measuring device. "You have size five and one-half sockets", the salesman says after annoying you with the odd device. He then shows you the eyes that he has in your size. You pick out what you like or look in the catalog and have something ordered if you don't like their stock. The latter requires a down payment.
Once your bought your eyes they sit you in a chair which offers no privacy due to being clearly visible from the storefront. Beside you are similar people in similar chairs in various stages of the process. The salesman scoops your eye out with something resembling a grapefruit spoon and deftly snips your optic nerve with sterile scissors. He does this a dozen time per day. The nerve is threaded into the eye, padding is place in your socket, and your new eye is slipped into place. This procedure is repeated with the other eye. It takes a fer moments for the nanites to do their work but, after several minutes of blindness, the clerk manually activates the eyes and asks you a series of standard questions. Satasifed that you don't have any complications he rings up the sale and asks you prefered payment method. You tell your comlink to pay for the eyes and are on your merry way. The entire procedure takes about half an hour.

At least, that's the way I see them.

Posted by: RiotGearEpsilon Jul 24 2006, 07:57 AM

I would pay extra to do it one eye at a time. At no stage do I wish to be blind. So you snip one eye, blind in one eye, wait for the new cybereye to fire up, and then once you're sure it works, you do the other one.

Otherwise, I'm seeing way too many potential lawsuits for emotional distress.

Posted by: Butterblume Jul 24 2006, 10:41 AM

Perhaps they hand you a trodenet, so you can watch each grizly detail from the Scoopers (aka the salesman) point of view. Just a thought .

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 24 2006, 11:07 AM

QUOTE (Dender)

tg: "You want me to install this laptop harddrive... into a desktop computer..."

That's a quite common thing to do - the other way round, on the other hand...

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 24 2006, 02:22 PM

If you're comfortable with letting a sixteen-year-old part-time worker who took a five-hour certification course at the YMCA scoop out your eyeballs and replace them with complex nanoelectronics then I doubt a little blindness will cause that much emotional suffering.

Besides, you can't sure the store or the mall. Both benefit from Soverign Immunity.

The great thing is that you can go next door and have an equally skilled technician drill a hole through your skull and your brain to install a datajack.

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (Dender @ Jul 24 2006, 09:17 AM)

tg: "You want me to install this laptop harddrive... into a desktop computer..."

That's a quite common thing to do - the other way round, on the other hand...

Using a http://www.mini-itx.com/ motherboard and small components one can actually build a laptop from desktop components.

Posted by: irdeggman Jul 28 2006, 04:10 PM

New question.

How do Knowedge skills work as far as determing cost?

I mean Knowledge skills cost 2 BP and specializations cost 1 BP. I got that part down.

But do these function the same as active skills and specialization.

For example I want a character with Security Procedures - Horizon and 4 ranks

The way the templated characters are laid out it looks as if each specializatin is treated as separate skill instead a skill with a specialization.

So would Security Procedures- Horizon rank 4 cost 4 BP (with 4 dice in the pool) or 9 BP (with 4 dice in the Security Procedures skill and 6 (4 + 2) in the Security Procedures - Horizon pool.

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 28 2006, 04:18 PM

It just depends on how you want to buy it. Knowledge skills can be as specialized or as broad as you want, and it's up to the GM to determine how that affects the thresholds of tests.

Using your example, if a character has knowledge "Security Procedures" I would let them make tests to get general ideas of what they may encounter no matter where they're at. If they have Knowledge "Security Procedues for Horizon" I would give them much more accurate info about the area they're in while at Horizon, but drastically less info if they try to apply that knowledge elsewhere. Example:

Group is infiltrating Ares HQ (they're suicidal). The guy with knowledge (Security Procedures) makes his roll and learns that headquarters are usually more defended, he can expect lots of gaurds at certain chokepoints, matrix security will be top notch, and wards are often layered. The guy with knowledge (Horizon) would get information on how Horizon's HQ is defended, which may or may not apply at Ares, but can give a general idea.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jul 28 2006, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (irdeggman)

So would Security Procedures- Horizon rank 4 cost 4 BP (with 4 dice in the pool) or 9 BP (with 4 dice in the Security Procedures skill and 6 (4 + 2) in the Security Procedures - Horizon pool.

Security Procedures - Horizon (4) = 8 BP
Security Procedures (Horizon Speciliazation) 4(+2) = 9 BP

Use as James McMurray describes.

For the first case with a very specialized knowledge skill, it seems to make sense to impose a penalty on the scale of -2 dice when going from specific to general.