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Posted by: McGravin Jul 25 2006, 07:51 AM

I know Wordman was asked to remove his "Ultimate Shadowrun Equipment List" he had put together for SR3, but has anyone put together a similar list for SR4, yet? If not, I've got a project in the works currently to put together a PDF list, for my own use. Only, I don't have On The Run, so if there is any new equipment in there, it isn't in the list yet. So basically, it's just a condensed list from the back of the SR4 main book, at the moment.

Would it be frowned upon to post my list here? It needs spellchecking and error checking, something I need a bit of help with. If the DS admins don't have a problem with it, I could share my work so far.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 25 2006, 09:59 AM

No new gear in On The Run.

I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to post a gear list. I'd find it handy for making new characters. Can you include a section for cyber/bio? Also remember to include notes that are only in the description of items and not the charts (such as what guns come smartlinked).

Posted by: Adam Jul 25 2006, 01:33 PM

Posted by: Brahm Jul 25 2006, 04:45 PM

I never saw Woodman's list myself. How much info does it include? Did it have anything more than price, availability, and a book/page reference? If it did I can understand Wizkid's problem with it. Even the price and avail are going to be kinda touchy, because in the end this is their product and property and if it really allows people to avoid buying books instead of encouraging buying books it is hard to argue with that decision.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 25 2006, 06:36 PM

How is it any different from character generators? Don't those have gear lists? And those are put up on these forums.

I mean look at DnD...they have the entire SRD online for free on theirown website and they aren't hurting for sales. If anything it helped them sell more books.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 25 2006, 06:40 PM

Regarding gear lists: Good point. They might get upset about those, too. But I agree that it's basically the same thing.
Regarding SRD: True, but that's Wizkid's decision whether they want to go that direction, and we can't decide for them that it would be a smart move. (Even if we'd be right)

Posted by: Adam Jul 25 2006, 06:47 PM

Posted by: McGravin Jul 25 2006, 07:14 PM

Alright. I'm going to go ahead and upload it, and if WizKids contacts me about it, I will remove it immediately.

http://mcgravin.googlepages.com/SR4Gear.pdf

It's all the equipment cost tables from the 30-page gear section in the SR4 main book, condensed into 15 pages of nothing but tables. No descriptions, no pictures.

Some things I know need fixed:
- another column in the firearms section, listing which ones have what extra features, like smartlink and built-in recoil comp
- tweak the column and page headers, possibly making them look more like Wordman's
- tweak the layout and try to squeeze more into less space
- does anyone know where a description and rules for "cyanide" is located in the SR4 main book? It's on the gear list, but I can't find rules for it anywhere, and while I can take a guess as to its effects (i.e., death), there's no listing for damage code and possible vectors, etc.

Please check closely for any errors I made. I haven't taken errata into consideration, except for the very obvious occular drone price, so if there are any corrections, let me know. Also, check for spelling. My PDF reader seems to have trouble with lowercase F's and capital T's, so pay attention to those.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 25 2006, 07:31 PM

Thanks McGravin.

I've found 1 error so far. Fake SIN availability is rating x 3 in the errata.

Posted by: McGravin Jul 25 2006, 10:10 PM

Version 0.2 is up. Fixed the fake SIN availability (thanks, ShadowDragon!) and added the "Common Costs" inset table that I forgot.

I'm going to continue making more changes, and hopefully correct some more errors. Please keep looking through the list for anything I misspelled.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 25 2006, 11:02 PM

I'm all for this... if nothing else, it means I can drag up occasional pricing info at work, without my BBB

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 25 2006, 11:15 PM

it might be pushing it but including prices from other books might help clear up some things. I know the BBB doesn't have prices for drugs but a few specific ones are in Man and Machine.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 25 2006, 11:17 PM

Probably a stupid question: How do you make PDFs? Do have to buy Adobe Creator or is there another way? Specifcally a cheap way, I'm in college

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 25 2006, 11:24 PM

You're in college and you can't figure out a cheap way to get Adobe Creator?

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 25 2006, 11:34 PM

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=open+source+pdf+creator. The first six or so are free. I didn't look farther than that.

Posted by: McGravin Jul 25 2006, 11:42 PM

I'm using Open Office, which is an open-license alternative to Microsoft Office. Export-to-PDF is a standard feature for Calc (their version of Excel), as well as Write (Word). I highly recommend it.

As for external convert-to-PDF programs, watch out that they don't leave annoying watermarks or footmarks. Pretty much all the free programs I've seen put a huge "Made With Cheapass PDF Maker!" at the bottom of every page of your document.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 25 2006, 11:47 PM

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 26 2006, 01:55 AM

What would be sweet is if it had the weights of the items, pulled from various SR3 books.

Posted by: McGravin Jul 26 2006, 04:56 AM

Weights? I'll see what I can manage.

Some item categories only have a couple columns of information (name, availability, cost), while others have a ton of information to try to cram into a space only one page wide. Specifically, weapons and vehicles are problem areas in this regard.

I might see what happens if I set the pages to landscape instead of portrait, effectively giving me a wider but shorter page. That'll open up a ton of space for more columns of information, but it'll make the list several pages longer.

Posted by: Brahm Jul 26 2006, 05:37 AM

Posted by: McGravin Jul 26 2006, 06:08 AM

Yeah, my group never used weight limits to begin with, so not having them in SR4 was a lovely surprise-by-omission. Usually, the GM uses common sense to make a judgement call on whether or not that elf can carry his deck, six belts of minigun ammo, and the person he's rescuing all on his left arm and still be able to hip-fire his Panther with his right. It occasionally leads to the sort of "But my character can totally do that, I swear!" argument that ends in dice being pegged across the room at one another.

But, hey, if people use weight in their games and they're asking for it on my list and if I can fit it in, I'll do so. However, if I've got the space, I'm more likely to leave a "notes" column that people can write in weights of important gear.

Posted by: underaneonhalo Jul 26 2006, 06:22 AM

Amen, I miss the old SR2 gear index, kudos to you!

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 26 2006, 06:35 AM

Ugh, why would anyone want to micromanage weight when common sense works just fine? This isn't DnD..

I wouldn't bother McGravin. If people want weight, they can write it in the margin when they print it out.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 26 2006, 05:17 PM

I kinda liked how CP2020 did weight... most items didn't have a specific weight listed, but that TYPE of item usually fit into a category that had a listed weight.

Medium pistols generally weigh 1 kg, etc.

Mostly, it gave players (and GMs sometimes) an easy way to eyeball the amount of stuff they were dragging around and possibly get a concept of how much it weighs.

Having to inform a Str 2 character-player that their battle rifle with 10 spare mags, handgun with 10 spare mags, 10 grenades, 24 launched grenades, body armor, helmet, toolbox, survival kit and rations for the next 4 days might be a little on the heavy side without having a weight list to point at can be a little irritating with some players.

Posted by: Dogsoup Jul 26 2006, 09:44 PM

Only stuff with a weight of >1kg could have it printed, otherwise "-" in the weight column. But I'm rather hesitant to use fan stuff, so it's official weights or nothing for me. Also, I was actually quite fond of sitting and fiddling with lots of stuff and its numbers on the sheet. I guess SR attracts the autistic accountant in me...

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 26 2006, 09:57 PM

The thing about printed weights is that they make life easier. I don't have to go and do research to try and figure out how many kilograms a heavy machine gun made of 2070s material will weigh if the weight is listed on the chart. Likewise with other things that "common sense" is only good for if you have experience with them.

For example, how much does a commlink weigh? You don't need an exact amount if you're just eyeballing, but you need a good guesstimate if you're going to figure out how many can fit in a carryable box.

I guess I never understood people that complained about "bean counting" weights. Sure, it requires a little work, but it's a very little and is really only done once at character creation. Anything after that is just adding or subtracting when you find / lose stuff. But my group has always been in favor of numbers when available and useful. Weight, in our opinion, is one of the ones that's useful enough to use numbers for. YMMV

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 26 2006, 10:41 PM

I imagin that a commlink weighs as much as a small cell phone if not less - so not enough to worry about.

I think another major problem with weight lists is weight distribution. I'm not a big guy and I can easily carry a 60 lb backpack designed for hiking, but I'd struggle carrying 60 lbs of books in my arms. That's where I think common sense would apply.

As for guns, just let the character carry them if they have the room. Guns are light enough that size is the limiting factor and not weight. If you think about it, virtually all of the gear works like this.

Posted by: McGravin Jul 26 2006, 10:41 PM

Not to get too offtopic, but commlinks in SR4 have really annoyed me. We're told that commlinks are an "easy-to-carry package that easily fits inside a pocket, belt-clip, or wrist-clip. Commlinks come in a dizzying area (sic) of shaps, sizes, and colors, from stylized head-sets or faux jewelry to cranial implants and commlinks woven into the fabric of your jacket." So are they telling me that with miniturization in the 2070s, any commlink can be the same tiny size, from the Meta Link to the Fairlight Caliban? Personally, I disagree.

In campaigns I GM, I've ruled that they vary in size depending on their Response and Signal ratings, with the Meta Link being comparable to the smallest modern Palm Pilot and the Caliban about the size of your average paperback. My players seem to agree, or at least, they're not complaining.

Posted by: BlueRondo Jul 26 2006, 11:59 PM

Well, they all have to be small enough to be implanted in a person's head, right?

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 27 2006, 12:49 AM

Or hand..

Posted by: BlueRondo Jul 27 2006, 12:55 AM

That's pretty small, and considering that there are no rules limiting response or signal based for implanted commlinks, I don't think size is much of an issue.

I don't know very much about electronics, but I imagine that the reason most PDA's, cell phones, smart phones, etc. are the size they are now is because people need to interact with them. If a commlink is implanted, or if most of the interfacing is done through accessories (image-link, earbuds, AR gloves, subvocal mic), then the actual commlink could be incredibly small.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 27 2006, 12:58 AM

I don't know very much about electronics, but I imagine that the reason most PDA's, cell phones, smart phones, etc. are the size they are now is because people need to interact with them.

And I still have trouble pressing the tiny keys on my cell phone!

Posted by: McGravin Jul 27 2006, 08:06 AM

Posted by: BlueRondo Jul 27 2006, 12:33 PM

Thank you for that explanation.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 27 2006, 06:59 PM

Posted by: Adam Selene Jul 27 2006, 07:01 PM

The NSRCG is practically the biggest 3rd-Ed gear list known to man. Tell me how it doesn't violate copyright and Wordman's list does.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 28 2006, 12:23 AM

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 28 2006, 12:37 AM

For those with no RL experience, how many magazines would be reasonable to carry? How much heavier/more bulky is a magazine compared to a clip?

Posted by: Adam Selene Jul 28 2006, 09:47 AM

The same?

A magazine is a self-contained queue of rounds. (the ones that come in semi-automatics these days)
A clip is just a bunch of bullets on a metal slide, like the ammunition for an M1 Garand.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 28 2006, 10:03 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Garand_clip.jpg
http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/sacil/4-Magazine-for-n30-shot-5.jpg

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 28 2006, 07:01 PM

When I use the term "magazine," I'm referring to what SR calls "clips." When I use the term "tubular magazine," I'm referring to what SR calls "magazines."

With handguns, a "typical" civilian carry rig today has the user with mag+1 round in the gun (a round chambered, and a full magazine below it), and then 1-2 spare magazines. This will often be carried in a "balanced" fashion... if the gun is on your right hip, the spare ammuntion is usually on the left. If the gun is in a shoulder holster, the spare ammunition is usually under the other arm. With my personal rig, that's 40 rounds of ammunition. You can easily get close to 60 rounds without having to carry more than 2 spare magazines, depending on the gun you carry.

It's also not uncommon to see a backup gun (something like a small revolver or automatic, with 0-2 reloads... SR "hold-out" pistols). In situations where you're hard-pressed to stay concealed (be it a hot day with light clothing, being at work where you might get fired for having a gun, or wearing something like a well-cut suit), what might normally be considered a backup gun might be the only thing you're carrying.

Revolver users will often carry either a couple of speedloaders, or some "speed strips"... a strip of metal that holds the same number of rounds as the revolver in a line, allowing the user to thumb them off the strip and into the cylinder without having to fumble around. Revolvers are an uncommon choice for a main handgun, due to the capacity of similarly-sized automatics (with a .357 wheelgun, you might be carrying 18 rounds between your gun and two speedloaders... a 357 SIG automatic generates similar ballistics but could hold 15 rounds in each magazine)... most who do carry revolvers do so simply because they are better shots with revolvers than automatics, or because it is more difficult to cause a revolver to malfunction.

Taking a handgun into a more combat-oriented environment, you're going to want 4-6 spare magazines, and a "primary" weapon (as handguns, in all honesty, are about the last thing you actually want to get into a fight with). That much ammunition can still be carried in a somewhat convenient fashion, without taking up too much space. Spare magazines might be stored in pouches on a vest, in holders strapped to your thigh, or under the arms/on the hip as I was saying earlier. The gun itself might also be in a thigh holster, strapped to the front of your chest, or otherwise kept somewhere accessible but secure.

With larger automatic weapons (submachineguns, assault rifles, battle rifles) you'll usually see loadouts running from 4-10 spare magazines. Battle rifles (things like the M14, G3, FAL) are reasonably heavy, as is their ammunition (a loaded 20 round FAL magazine weighs 1.5 pounds). My understanding is that a number of armed forces normally deployed 4 spare magazines with their battle rifles... but troops often scrounged up extras (or carried extra ammunition in a case) if they were in an active combat zone, feeling that 100 rounds might not be enough, even though the majority of the shooting was to be done on semiautomatic.

The lighter ARs and SMGs are much easier to carry ammunition for, as the magazines are smaller and lighter weight, despite normally holding about 30 rounds of ammunition. On a lighter, higher-speed group (think something like a SWAT team) 4-6 spare magazines might be the norm. On a group expecting serious combat (soldiers in the field) with decent fire control, 8-10 spare magazines should last them through the day. One of the reasons to issue your troops similar weapons is so that they can share magazines, should everything go to hell and some people start running out of ammunition.

Carrying larger magazines like this can involve a bandolier, holders on the waist or chest, or a pouch. It's uncommon to see rifle magazines stored on the legs. Often times, soldiers will have a lightweight kit that they don't really ever take off holding things like water and their rifle magazines, meaning that even if they're seperated from their pack, they can still be a basic rifleman. Submachineguns are almost never seen in a military environment for frontline combat troops, as carbines (short assault rifles) are nearly as light, provide significantly more firepower, and have a much longer effective range (and it means, again, that the trooper can share ammunition with his squadmates).

Shotguns that feed from a magazine you would treat like a battle rifle, most likely (based on the weight and size of a shotgun magazine). These are uncommon today. In SR, there's a few of them. As a shotgun magazine usually holds only 6-10 rounds of ammunition, you'd probably want more than the basic "4 spares" of a battle rifle.

Shotguns that feed from a tubular magazine (by far the most common) are loaded by inserting individual shells into the tube. I've seen any number of clever means for carrying shotgun ammunition... bandoliers, shell loops on the buttstock, carriers bolted to the side of the reciever opposite the ejection port, shell loops on the sling for the weapon, bandoliers, loops in your vest, loops on your belt, a box of shells dumped loose into your pocket (or kept in the box, so the shells are all facing the same way), hardbodied springloaded boxes attached to the belt so that there's always a round at the bottom (kind of like a toothpick dispenser)... a 25 round box of shotgun shells is about 3 inches thick, and about 4 inches on a side, and weighs about 3-4 pounds, depending on the type of shot or slug used. The loose rounds are about 3 inches long and a little under an inch in diameter.

One of the useful things about shotguns is the fact that you can usually load in a round of your choice without having to completely unload the weapon. If you wanted to fire a door-breaching round or a slug out of a gun loaded with shot rounds, you could do so either by feeding the desired round into the tube and pumping the gun/racking the bolt to chamber it, or by pressing the "interrupt" (if the gun has one... it keeps the tube from feeding into the chamber), pumping/racking the chamber open to eject the currently loaded round, dropping the desired round into the chamber, and closing it again.

Shotguns are very limited in range... 40 yards is generally regarded as being the absolute maximum they can be used at when loaded with shot. Their military uses are almost exclusively urban battle or FISHing (a Brit term, "Fighting In Someone's House"). It's rare to see a soldier armed exclusively with a shotgun... often times, they'll have a rifle as well, either carried with them or in their vehicle. The shotgun is used for breaching doors and fighting at spitting distances, with the rifle used if they're out in the street. Sometimes, the shotgun will be quite severely cut down and kept loaded solely with breaching rounds or slugs, holding only a few rounds of ammunition as it really isn't meant to do anything except destroy door locks and hinges at point blank.

In law-enforcement applications (SWAT and patrol cars) the shotgun is viewed as a primary weapon. It's uses are mostly the same, although patrol officers tend to use the shotgun at longer ranges than the military might. This isn't because the weapon is somehow more effective for them, it's just that it's the biggest thing they've got. There's a transition in America towards assault rifles/carbines for police use, either replacing the shotgun or augmenting it. Some units may carry additional "beanbag guns" in their patrol cars... shotguns loaded exclusively with less-lethal ammunition, usually kept in the trunk and with some funky color scheme to make it obvious it is NOT to be loaded with hardball ammunition. SWAT units will sometimes use breaching shotguns in addition to another primary weapon, similar to the military.

... heh, that went a little OT. Can you tell I'm bored at work?

Posted by: Adam Selene Jul 28 2006, 08:23 PM

Bored at work? With a Raygun-like knowledge like that I'd have to ask WHO you worked for.

http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/corporate/caci_internatonal/

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 28 2006, 08:32 PM

Heh. I'm trained as an EMT and looking for work in Seattle. Asides from that, I've mostly done office stuff.

Posted by: PBTHHHHT Jul 28 2006, 09:06 PM

right, that's what it says for your official cover. gotcha.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 29 2006, 12:01 AM

Posted by: McGravin Jul 29 2006, 07:13 PM

I know I said this was coming a couple days ago, but http://mcgravin.googlepages.com/SR4Gear.pdf. It's got a new column for included weapon modifications. I didn't have room for a key, so I put in a new column in the Firearm Accessories category itself to act as a key.

Unless I decide to put in a title page (maybe), this is probably the last version until some new books come out with new gear.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 29 2006, 08:42 PM

I found a few more mistakes. Spurs don't have reach, as per the errata. You're missing the weapon values for bone lacing (which is also changed in errata from first print). Plastic is (STR/2 + 1)P and aluminum is (STR/2 + 2)P. Under magical supplies, change "Conjuring Materials" to "Spirit Binding Materials" and change the cost to Force x 500 as per the errata.

Another thing you might consider adding is alternating shaded rows like the book. It makes it much easier to read. For a title page, you could include a brief index; maybe squeeze the key in there too.

Posted by: Wordman Aug 1 2006, 05:33 AM

For the record:

1. It was FASA who asked me to stop distributing the list. I have no idea what the stance of FanPro/Wiz Kids is.
2. I'm told that copies of it are floating around on p2p networks.
3. Whatever version is out there contains information from works that are no longer actually sold, so its unclear if even if they cared about it before, that they still would.
4. Whether they care or not, I've past the point of being interested in their opinion.

Posted by: Bull Aug 1 2006, 01:56 PM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 01:12 PM

Is anyone planning on updating this with Gear from Augmentation and Arsenal (when it eventually comes out)?

Posted by: raverbane Jan 20 2008, 03:43 PM

I tried clicking several links listed in this thread and that all don't work due to some 'standards violation', I think.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 03:52 PM