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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Degrading of Armor?
Posted by: zeb.hillard Jul 26 2006, 07:56 PM
I may have missed it, but I was curious is there was a system in SR4 for damage done to armor reducing its effectivness? Any help would be grealy appreciated.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 26 2006, 07:58 PM
I'd say it's a possible glitch result on a damage resistance test. That's the only "system" for it, currently and officially, AFAIK.
Posted by: zeb.hillard Jul 26 2006, 08:01 PM
I was thinking of possibly instituting a rule in the game I'm running that every time you take damage that's mitigated in some form by armor, but isn't entirely negated (The bullet goes through your vest, for example) that the armor rating against that particular damage type is reduced by one. And, a glitch on the damage resistance test reducing it by another level.
Though, it's simply a thought, and makes the never-degrading armor a non-issue any longer.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 26 2006, 08:06 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| I'd say it's a possible glitch result on a damage resistance test. That's the only "system" for it, currently and officially, AFAIK. |
I like this better than a constant decay of armor simply for the bookeeping required and rules required to insert.
Posted by: Dogsoup Jul 26 2006, 09:40 PM
Just say to the players, in between runs, that they should buy new armor vests, when you think they've gone one damage-heavy run too many. They should have the cash and ample downtime to do it in, and it doesn't use a system to eat gameplay time.
Posted by: Adam Selene Jul 27 2006, 04:34 AM
There are armor degradation rules available from SR3's Cannon Companion, page 96.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 27 2006, 05:21 AM
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| There are armor degradation rules available from SR3's Cannon Companion, page 96. |
Wrong forum topic for SR3 mister, "Don't wanna play SR4"
PS - Welcome to dumpshock!
Posted by: Adam Selene Jul 27 2006, 05:24 AM
He asked for armor degradation rules. Nobody could offer anything except rampant speculation, I offered canon material.
I didn't say "SR4 sucks, use SR3 rules", I gave him the only canon info that anybody on this board is apparently aware of Mr. "Post First, Ask Questions Later". Would you like to try again, maybe a bit more politely?
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 27 2006, 05:32 AM
| QUOTE (Adam Selene) |
| He asked for armor degradation rules. Nobody could offer anything except rampant speculation, I offered canon material. I didn't say "SR4 sucks, use SR3 rules", I gave him the only canon info that anybody on this board is apparently aware of Mr. "Post First, Ask Questions Later". Would you like to try again, maybe a bit more politely? |
Alas my humor hasn't translated into text. Considering this is a SR4 forum, I temper all the SR4 mechanics questions using available SR4 mechanics materials. I'm going to assume that's what the original poster was looking for. If not, oh well.
Your signature says it all, "I don't play SR4 and I have no intention of starting. Let's just keep it at that."
Ease up on the hair trigger mate, we're all chummers here.
Posted by: zeb.hillard Jul 27 2006, 02:34 PM
I think I'll go with a glitch degrading the armor, as I tried my system in a test run last night and it -seriously- slows things down and tears through armor almost too quickly for my liking. I was just hoping for a system that would work during prolonged firefights in hopes of defeating the Invincible Troll senario, but after another test, I've found that it isn't nearly as bad as it was in previous editions.
Posted by: The Jopp Jul 27 2006, 03:01 PM
You could also say that it can take an amount of "penetrating" hits (i.e you have to soak physical) equal to the armours ballistic rating. After that is done it's broken and needs to be repaired.
Posted by: Demon_Bob Jul 27 2006, 06:46 PM
I Say also that if a target is killed or that all thier physical damage boxes are filled the at least that section of the armor is destroyed , unless the shooter designated that he was targeting to bypass armor and took the appropriate penalties.
Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 27 2006, 08:55 PM
IRL, most pieces of ballistic armor are only rated for single, or a very low number of hits. This is especially true when you are dealing with anything above Class IIIA armor and confronting rifle threats. The ballistic plate inserts often crack/break when hit by said projectiles, stopping the damage but rending that section vulnerable to repeated hits.
In my games, I allow armor that receives hits to work at full effectiveness for the duration of a single combat encounter. After that, it is time to replace the armor. I haven't had any characters refuse to buy replacement armor, so there has been no need to create rules for using bullet-ridden armor.
Posted by: zeb.hillard Jul 27 2006, 09:02 PM
I think reducing the effectivness of armor by the difference in its protective rating and the penetrating round (When physical wounds are taken), and reducing armor by one point each time a stun wound is taken would be the most realistic way of dealing with it in a system-stylized standpoint.
However, I also think the bookkeeping of that system could easily get to be a burden when engaged in a 5-runner team against a Lone Star patrol in an extended firefight.
Maybe I'll just chop something together in Excel to help me keep track of it.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 27 2006, 09:04 PM
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| IRL, most pieces of ballistic armor are only rated for single, or a very low number of hits. This is especially true when you are dealing with anything above Class IIIA armor and confronting rifle threats. The ballistic plate inserts often crack/break when hit by said projectiles, stopping the damage but rending that section vulnerable to repeated hits. In my games, I allow armor that receives hits to work at full effectiveness for the duration of a single combat encounter. After that, it is time to replace the armor. I haven't had any characters refuse to buy replacement armor, so there has been no need to create rules for using bullet-ridden armor. |
What about more exotic combat armors or the technology that might exist in 2070? If it's rare armor then do you make them dispose of that as well?
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 27 2006, 09:06 PM
Isn't there a skill that they could presumably use to repair armor in their downtime?
Posted by: zeb.hillard Jul 27 2006, 09:39 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Isn't there a skill that they could presumably use to repair armor in their downtime? |
Perhaps a Knowledge Skill: Body Armor Repair, or Personal Defense Specialist Mechanic...maybe...though the latter would be pulling it thin.
Posted by: Dr. Dodge Jul 27 2006, 10:04 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| Isn't there a skill that they could presumably use to repair armor in their downtime? |
Armorer, perhaps
Posted by: zeb.hillard Jul 28 2006, 01:21 PM
| QUOTE (Dr. Dodge) | ||
|
And my lack of Knowledge: Absolute shows through. Hell, even my Knowledge: Look at the Other Page, goofy, shows through. Yes, indeed. Armorer works quite well.
Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 28 2006, 01:23 PM
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) | ||
What about more exotic combat armors or the technology that might exist in 2070? If it's rare armor then do you make them dispose of that as well? |
It's not often that my players get anything I consider "rare". If you are talking about stuff like hardened military armor, I don't make it lose effectiveness if ignores the damage completely. But it's rare any of my players have/use stuff like that.
What helps my game along is the mindset of my players. To them, armor is disposable. They don't spend 1000s of nuyen on adding all kinds of special components to their armor because they realize that it is unlikely to last more than a single run. Come to think of it, they treat a lot of their weaponry the same way.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 28 2006, 01:40 PM
You view of 2070 armor as toiler paper just seems out-of-place (at least in SR4 ) to me. IRL, you've probably made some solid points.
Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 28 2006, 06:57 PM
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| You view of 2070 armor as toiler paper just seems out-of-place (at least in SR4 ) to me. IRL, you've probably made some solid points. |
I can understand how you would feel that way, but I seriously doubt that personal body armor is going to be that drastically different in 60 years than it is today. There are some fundamentals that just do not change. Armor isn't as disposable as toilet paper, but it just isn't going to be able to take dozens and dozens of hits and maintain proper protection. Most of the really advanced body armors of today CAN protect against multiple hits, but are not rated for that.
The most extreme tech jump I can see affecting body armor is the "gel-pack" crap mentioned in some of the other sourcebooks (I think it started with Fields of Fire). Stuff like that COULD possibly continue to provide protection after sustaining several hits, but a single PENETRATING hit would invariably ruin it.
Either way, your armor is going to loose effectiveness when it takes hits. Maybe a materials engineer out there can give me some theoretical examples of stuff that wouldn't, but until then, body armor in my SR games is going to be disposable.
Posted by: BlueRondo Jul 28 2006, 07:29 PM
Even if SR4's armor is more durable than today's, wouldn' t 2070 firearms have evolved to counter it? SR4's "regular rounds" may be more damaging to armor than current ammo.
Posted by: ornot Jul 28 2006, 07:35 PM
My runners tend to avoid getting the crap shot out of them if they can help it. Regardless, I include minor repairs in lifestyle costs. Armour is only really damaged if a glitch is rolled, then the character would need to either buy a brand new armour vest or pay to get the old one repaired.
Having ablative armour rules just slows everything down too much. Bad enough keeping track of bullets, but at least with that I know to cross one off each time gun bunny street sam fires his Predator, rather than only when he gets shot and fails his soak roll or something.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 28 2006, 07:49 PM
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jul 28 2006, 11:57 AM) | ||
I can understand how you would feel that way, but I seriously doubt that personal body armor is going to be that drastically different in 60 years than it is today. There are some fundamentals that just do not change. Armor isn't as disposable as toilet paper, but it just isn't going to be able to take dozens and dozens of hits and maintain proper protection. Most of the really advanced body armors of today CAN protect against multiple hits, but are not rated for that. The most extreme tech jump I can see affecting body armor is the "gel-pack" crap mentioned in some of the other sourcebooks (I think it started with Fields of Fire). Stuff like that COULD possibly continue to provide protection after sustaining several hits, but a single PENETRATING hit would invariably ruin it. Either way, your armor is going to loose effectiveness when it takes hits. Maybe a materials engineer out there can give me some theoretical examples of stuff that wouldn't, but until then, body armor in my SR games is going to be disposable. |
So if it's always done, fairly cheap and available, why bother making it an issue? It's like making sure runners mention the are spending downtime to clean their weapons else they might misfire more often. Too much bookkeeping for my tastes.
On the other hand, if someone specifically hasn't had the time to replace armor after a gun fight or time is crunched for story/situation reason then I can see making the armor less-effective or useless.
Posted by: TheOneRonin Jul 28 2006, 08:18 PM
For the same reason you make runners keep track of ammunition. Regular ammo is cheap, available, and easy to get. But I doubt you allow your players to skip keeping track of it. It is a resource, and if not managed prudently, can leave the players in a bind.
Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 28 2006, 08:44 PM
I think armor damage is something I'd be more likely to have happen from a critical success than a glitched body+armor roll. It doesn't make much sense that armor is easier to reduce if you're skinny and weak.
Posted by: BlueRondo Jul 28 2006, 09:16 PM
Having armor degrade throughout the course of a firefight might add some incentive to layering armor, wouldn't it? Although the armor values still wouldn't stack, if your primary armor is degraded too much during combat, your secondary armor would kick in.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 28 2006, 09:23 PM
Hmmm, that's a neat idea.
My big problem would be determining when armor degrades without adding too much bookkeeping.
I don't like degrading armor whenever a hit penetrates, because of SR's abstract damage system. If a hit penetrates, that may mean it penetrated your armor, or it may mean that you got hit somewhere you don't have armor. So I don't like the idea of armor automatically degrading every time it fails to stop a hit. I like the idea of degrading on a glitch, except for Shrike30's excellent point above, and plus it wouldn't happen often enough to be interesting.
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