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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ "Must-Have" Specializations: Are they appropriate?

Posted by: HappyDaze Jul 27 2006, 04:25 PM

I've noticed a trend that certain specializations seem to come up over and over. Some examples:

Dodge (Melee Combat) - Since Dodge is so seldom used against ranged combat attacks - they typically are defended against using only Reaction - this has been a big one for my players.

Pistol (Semi-Automatics) - This seems to cover any (non-Revolver) pistol that is incapable of BF. Is this correct, because if it is, then that's a vast majority of the pistols my players use.

Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) - This one's really gray. Just what are the limits to this specialty?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Posted by: Demerzel Jul 27 2006, 04:42 PM

I think in pistols they weren't thinking it through clearly, I house rule spec in pistols to be Hold-Out, Light, or Heavy Pistols. Then I make sure that there are cases where the runers must go places where their heavy pistols will be noticed and the only things they can get through are hold-outs. So the spec is not freebies.

Posted by: Aaron Jul 27 2006, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (HappyDaze)

Dodge (Melee Combat) - Since Dodge is so seldom used against ranged combat attacks - they typically are defended against using only Reaction - this has been a big one for my players.

This one is often taken but seldom comes up. I've had some primarily melee that take Dodge (Ranged Combat) to avoid distance attacks while they close into their own range.

QUOTE (HappyDaze)

Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) - This one's really gray. Just what are the limits to this specialty?

I think this would apply to almost all attacks made by the character, although I would only allow it to apply to (full) defense rolls where the attacker is also using some form of martial arts. Actually, I might only allow it for strikes, as opposed to subdual (grappling) or defense.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Jul 27 2006, 04:48 PM

Re: Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts)--Without having an update to the Cannon Companion materials, I'd say to have the player decide whether this is for attacking or blocking, or to specify a unique situation (Multiple opponents, close combat, etc) I'm hoping that Arsenal will update the materials from CC to SR4, but without that telling us what the advantages and disadvantages of a specific style of martial arts are, we have to make things up on the fly.

If you have access to a CC, you and your player can sit down and discuss which form of martial arts they have bene trained in and determine the best way to simulate that training without it dominating areas where the martial art form is weak.

Posted by: HappyDaze Jul 27 2006, 05:42 PM

I can see going with the "by style" approach in some games, but SR4 really only uses Unarmed Strike - whether that be by fist, foot, elbow, knee, kneelig/sitting on your opponent (don't laugh too much, it happens in Silat all the time).

I suppose that Martial Arts would be inappropriate for touch attacks (shock gloves and touch-range spells), and subduing, but it should still be useful for blocking so long as you're not "armed" with shock gloves or holding a touch-range spell or currently grappling (subduing combat)...

I really don't like the Martial Arts Specialization.

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 27 2006, 05:50 PM

QUOTE (HappyDaze)

Dodge (Melee Combat) - Since Dodge is so seldom used against ranged combat attacks - they typically are defended against using only Reaction - this has been a big one for my players.

Our group tends to specialize in ranged defense and use unarmed or melee combat to defend in melee.

Posted by: ethinos Jul 27 2006, 05:54 PM

Martial arts are fine as long as they describe what the primary functions of the martial art is.

For example:
Boxing: +2 when punching
Karate: +2 when kicking
Judo, Wrestling: +2 for subdual

Maybe even split the +2 into two separate attacks.
Kung Fu, Kicking Boxing: +1 when punching, +1 when kicking
Street Fighting: +1 for subdual, +1 punching

+2 for anyone with Martial Arts to block a melee attack. (This doesn't help though for dodging falling debris or that old, senile lady driving on the sidewalk!)

Why split it? Situations might exist when only your legs are free. Maybe you can only strike at someone with your hands. Maybe you just have to tackle that elf and keep him down. A little diversity in the martial art might be preferred.

This is where house rules need to clarify the function of the skill.

Posted by: ShadowDragon Jul 27 2006, 06:30 PM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

I do the same houserule.

Dodge doesn't seem like an issue to me. Martial arts spec is banned; that's fluff, not a spec.

Posted by: Ghostfire Jul 27 2006, 06:47 PM

House Rules I've impemented:

Specs for Pistols change to: Hold-Out, Light, Heavy. There are actually quite a few situations where packing the heavy pistol is a bad idea.

Unarmed: Specs change to Offensive (when attacking), Defensive (when defending), and Subdual (used in any subdual/grappling attempt)

I'm not 100% satisfied with how I split up Pistols. Unarmed, though, works excellently.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 27 2006, 08:01 PM

I can't really think of a better way to break up pistols. Maybe HO, LP, HP, and Revolver (regardless of size), but that's it. It's not like there's a lot of different kinds of handgun.

I dunno. If the Roomsweeper and the AVS weren't both Heavy Pistols, I might not wonder about it so much. As is, two of the more bizarre guns in the game fit in to the pistols category.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 27 2006, 08:04 PM

I don't know. If I change the specializations to HO, LP, and HP then they'll just specialize in heavy pistols and be back in the old situation of refusing to use a light pistol or a hold-out, EVER.

Posted by: ethinos Jul 27 2006, 08:05 PM

You can always force them to pick a specific weapon instead.

Posted by: Shrike30 Jul 27 2006, 08:09 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jul 27 2006, 01:04 PM)

I don't know. If I change the specializations to HO, LP, and HP then they'll just specialize in heavy pistols and be back in the old situation of refusing to use a light pistol or a hold-out, EVER.

I take away or otherwise deny (metal detectors, anyone? airports, anyone?) access to weapons to my players reasonably often. What they can find in the field is oft-times limited. I also don't allow heavy pistols on arm slides unless you're wearing robes or something else with huge sleeves. I get a mix of caliber choices in my game these days.

Part of it is that I encourage people to pick light pistols, emphasising that they're nearly as good as heavies, more concealable, and (while it doesn't actually matter in-game) they kick less, so non-frontline characters might be more inclined to pick them. It works for our group.

Posted by: Jaid Jul 28 2006, 12:01 AM

how about gunnery(ballistic).

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 28 2006, 12:28 AM

Or Peception (vision)
Or Computer (commlink)

What about the specs that have NO use. Elec Warfare has a Jamming spec that can't ever be applied to a roll.

Posted by: FanGirl Jul 28 2006, 12:55 AM

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

Or Peception (vision)

Good luck noticing the sound of the floorboards creaking, or the smell of gas in the room.

Posted by: Samaels Ghost Jul 28 2006, 01:07 AM

The point was how much more often vision is used than the others. Use Ultrasound and your hearing is technically vision.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Jul 28 2006, 01:16 AM

Don't forget First Aid (Combat Wounds)

Posted by: booklord Jul 28 2006, 01:40 AM

QUOTE (FanGirl)

QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Jul 27 2006, 07:28 PM)

Or Peception (vision)

Good luck noticing the sound of the floorboards creaking, or the smell of gas in the room.

By the RAW it costs about 2 karma points to specialize any skill. There's no downside to having a skill specialized. You don't do worse in a skill because you're specialized.

Posted by: Taki Jul 28 2006, 03:08 PM

unarmed combat (martial art)
For me someone practicing a few balanced styles of kung fu isn't specialized at all because those styles cover most kind of attack / defence.
As said before I would agree for :
english boxing : +2 for attacking with punch (could include subdual)
karate : +2 for attacking (not for subdual)
muai thai : +2 for strikes with hard parts of the body (no subdual either !)
Aikido : +2 for defense OR +2 for grapple/throwing

... Those are just Idea. Basically I just think a specialization must stay what it is : being better in a part of the skill covering less than half its applications
Some karate style could be more focused on hand, or on kick ... The character must just specify the range of application of the specialization.

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 28 2006, 03:17 PM

Apart from flavor text, what's the difference between them saying "I throw a punch" and "I throw a kick?" If we get martial arts rules we'll have difference, but for now it seems like just a difference in descriptors, although I suppose there are situations where you can't use one or the other, but those would be few and far between.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jul 28 2006, 03:43 PM

There seems to be a slight misconception within this thread:

Specialisations are mutually exclusive... so Martial Arts adds dice exactly when attacking normally in unarmed combat.

Posted by: Thanee Jul 28 2006, 03:49 PM

QUOTE (HappyDaze)

Dodge (Melee Combat) - Since Dodge is so seldom used against ranged combat attacks - they typically are defended against using only Reaction - this has been a big one for my players.

Considering, that Dodge is pretty much redundant, anyways. No big deal.

Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) seems like the better choice in most cases.

QUOTE

Pistol (Semi-Automatics) - This seems to cover any (non-Revolver) pistol that is incapable of BF. Is this correct, because if it is, then that's a vast majority of the pistols my players use.

That one's certainly right. Some will have revolvers for style, but that's it.

QUOTE

Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) - This one's really gray. Just what are the limits to this specialty?

No cyber-implant weapons mostly.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: James McMurray Jul 28 2006, 04:03 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

There seems to be a slight misconception within this thread:

Specialisations are mutually exclusive... so Martial Arts adds dice exactly when attacking normally in unarmed combat.

Maybe it's the "exactly" throwing me off, as that doesn't seem to be the normal use of the word. Did you mean "only when attacking in melee combat?" If so, why? Martial arts also teach defense.

Note, I'm not arguing that specialization in martial arts should always work, I personally think it should only work when using the maneuvers you've learned from your art, but those don't exist in SR4 yet. I'm just curious about your reasoning behind saying MA only works for offense, or if I'm just miunderstanding.

Posted by: Taki Jul 28 2006, 04:09 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

There seems to be a slight misconception within this thread:

Specialisations are mutually exclusive... so Martial Arts adds dice exactly when attacking normally in unarmed combat.

They are not. You can have just one specialization, but for example you can have either batons or parrying, which doesn't mean that you can't use your +2 of specialization "baton" while you are parrying and the reverse.

There is no official explanation for the effects of the specialization "martial art" yet (can't be worse than the "I am specialized in 90% of the pistols" anyway ...

House rules !!!!!

QUOTE (Cambridge dictionary)

specialized, UK USUALLY specialised
adjective
Her job is very specialized (= involves only one limited area).

emphasis mine.