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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ SR3 Incomplete?

Posted by: GoblynByte Jul 29 2006, 09:11 PM

I've been away for quite a while. Other games. Other projects. But I'm thinking seriously about getting back into SR. Well, actually I am going to get back into SR, but I'm trying to debate whether or not I want to delve into SR4 or stick with SR3. I have a fairly complete collection of SR3 (most of the core books that involve major rules systems), but that's about it. I didn't really buy any SR books until SR3, so my knowledge of previous editions is limited.

Here's my question, though ('bout time!). I once got the impression from someone in conversation that SR3 never made much of an attempt to acclimate newcomers to the game. For instance, they never printed an over abundance of gear illustrations because it was expected that everyone would already know what all the stuff looked like. Also, certain descriptions of historical events were left out or given inadiquate billing because, again, folks using SR3 were already to expected to have been veteran users of SR1 or SR2.

Is this true? Did I misunderstand or was this an incorrect impression?

Now, here's my next question. If the above impression is true, than does SR4 do a better job of introducing new players to the SR world? I noticed that they do include more pictures representing equipment and weapons, but that's the more obvious (and superficial) part. What about the world itself? Do they skim over stuff? Do they provide just as much, or even more world detail than SR3?

Again, I may be way off base on my understanding of the "abridged" nature of SR3. Just thought I would ask. I'd rather stick with SR3, at least until SR4 releases more material, but sometimes I get the impression I'm missing something from the SR setting by using SR3. Any input?

Posted by: Adam Jul 29 2006, 09:29 PM

If you compare just the main SR3 book to the main SR4 book, SR4 offers more in the way of generalized setting information [in the Life on the Edge] chapter, but doesn't have a chapter on a specific setting [Seattle] like SR3 does.

I think the SR4 "Welcome to the Shadows" chapter also gives a broader overview than the SR3 version, but I wrote/updated that chapter, so I might not have a perfectly clear perspective on it.

The history chapter of SR4 is more condensed than the one in SR3.

Also, each SR4 chapter opens with a little bit of fiction, designed to introduce newer players to the world and give people a few ideas on how the concepts from that chapter may work in-game.

Posted by: GoblynByte Jul 29 2006, 09:50 PM

QUOTE (Adam)

SR4 offers more in the way of generalized setting information [in the Life on the Edge] chapter, but doesn't have a chapter on a specific setting [Seattle] like SR3 does.

But with Runner Havens for SR4 this should be taken care of, right?

Posted by: Adam Jul 29 2006, 09:53 PM

Yes; Runner Havens covers Seattle and Hong Kong in-depth, and touches on several other cities as well. Future books [Corporate Enclaves and Feral Cities] covering other locations are planned.

Posted by: GoblynByte Jul 29 2006, 10:18 PM

And what of other information? Are books such as Rigger, The Matrix, and Magic in the Shadows going to be repeated in some manner (if you know or are allowed to disclose that information, that is)?

Posted by: Grinder Jul 29 2006, 10:22 PM

Yep. Street Magic will be the first one, followed by Unwired, Arsenal and Augmentations (don't know the order of that releases). And a rigger/ vehicle book too, I guess.

Posted by: Adam Jul 29 2006, 10:43 PM

Grinder has things mostly right, although the order is:

Street Magic
Arsenal [guns, gear, and vehicles]
Emergence [plot book involving Technomancers]
Augmentation [cyberware, bioware, genetech, other body and mind mods]
Unwired [hacking and rigging]

Posted by: Grinder Jul 29 2006, 10:45 PM

Is there already a page count for the books?

And why is Augmentations so late?

Posted by: GoblynByte Jul 29 2006, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (Adam)

Excellent!

So, any truth to the idea that SR3 is meant as an "update" for existing SR fans rather than a truly new game?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 29 2006, 10:51 PM

Well, the whole "edition" thing suggests it… (SR4 notwithstanding)

If I understand what you're talking about rightly, though, SR4 will not change the dearth of gear pictures/descriptions—they've been requested many times, and each time the response has been that the conditions that allowed the space devoted to each item in, say, the Street Samurai Catalogue no longer exist and probably will not exist again.

~J

Posted by: GoblynByte Jul 29 2006, 11:03 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

But just glancing at SR4 I see that there at least are representative illustrations of the weapons (for instance). SR3 was almost completely devoid of any illustrations of weapons and completely devoid of any notations as to the identity of the pictures they did have.

But what I mean is that this person I was speaking to implied that SR3 did not take new inductees into consideration when writing the game. He suggested that there was a lot of information left out because the authors felt that it was information the reader would already know. And not just "fluff" information. Information vital to a good working knowledge of the setting. Now, since nobody really knows what they don't know (whoa...deep) I was starting to wonder what it was I was missing in SR3 from SR1 and SR2. Do I need to start collecting earlier editions just to get the full story?

Posted by: Adam Jul 29 2006, 11:07 PM

QUOTE

Is there already a page count for the books?

Street Magic is 192; I suspect most of them will end up being similarly-sized.

QUOTE

And why is Augmentations so late?

Augmentation and Arsenal are both heavily in progress, but there are only so many developer-hours to go around [even with Robyn and Peter handling development duties for some books now], and Arsenal and Street Magic were deemed to be more important to get finished first.

QUOTE

So, any truth to the idea that SR3 is meant as an "update" for existing SR fans rather than a truly new game?

I don't really think so; FASA, at the time, decided that they wanted to condense the game [Street Samurai Catalog + Fields of Fire == Cannon Companion, for example] to make it more approachable and to remove a lot of the rules ambiguity that SR1 and SR2 had. Few editions are a "truly new game"; in almost every situation, people playing a new edition will have an 'advantage' if they've played previous editions and abosrbed portions of the source material.

I don't really think that SR3 was incomplete, although I think, unfortunately, a lot of books that really helped flesh it out [such as Sprawl Survival Guide] didn't arrive until very late into SR3's lifespan, and didn't arrive until FanPro took over publishing Shadowrun.

Posted by: Drraagh Jul 29 2006, 11:22 PM

With regards to gear and such, I've seen players playing since SR1 that own pretty much every book that don't know how gear looks. Part of it, at least to me, is that how the gear looks hasn't ever really been too much of an issue.

A gun is a gun, a sword is a sword, a car is a car and a truck is a truck. (And a horse is a horse, of course, of course ;P)

Now, this is also coming from the person who started the 'What do pocsecs look like' thread, but the reason I started that was to see what people had come up with as it was generally left alone.

The history is something that in most games I've played in ended up just being more backdrop than having anything to do with the game. Sure it caused events to happen, but rarely did you have an event that was directly tied into event X which happened in the past.

My big beef with SR was that there wasn't much in the way of atmosphere. They have all sorts of books on combat in magic, matrix, rigging and flesh, but they don't have many books on themeatic atmosphere besides location books. Shadowbeat was one, yes, and then we got things like the SSG and SOTA books, but they were few and far between. Look at CP2020 when it was out, there were Chromebooks which had items that while you may not want them (detatchable cyber fingers for example, or prayerware), it gave extra theme for the world. It helped to add the punk to the cyberpunk theme, which is something I felt that SR was lacking because it was focusing on cyber and magic which tended to make you more of a killer or whatever, but not on what made the person.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 29 2006, 11:25 PM

QUOTE (GoblynByte @ Jul 29 2006, 06:03 PM)

I may have misunderstood you, then. The SR4 core book is indeed quite a bit better about giving pictures of gear than the SR3 core book, but both are pathetic compared to SSC and its ilk.

Juggling order here:

QUOTE

Now, since nobody really knows what they don't know (whoa...deep) I was starting to wonder what it was I was missing in SR3 from SR1 and SR2. Do I need to start collecting earlier editions just to get the full story?

The answer: yes, absolutely. However, that hasn't changed in SR4. Short of never letting any book with meaningful amounts of fluff go out of print, there's no good way to provide "the full story" to new players with only what is in a new edition. This is multiplied if parts of the story are told "the right way" (which is to say, in-character) and you have events like Harlequin and Harlequin's Back that no one who would be giving a history in a sourcebook would have any reason to know.

QUOTE

But what I mean is that this person I was speaking to implied that SR3 did not take new inductees into consideration when writing the game. He suggested that there was a lot of information left out because the authors felt that it was information the reader would already know. And not just "fluff" information. Information vital to a good working knowledge of the setting.

The problem here is that "vital to a good working knowledge of the setting" is immensely subjective. IMO you can achieve something reasonably close with just SR3 and Corporate Download, though I don't think you're getting the full flavour without a copy of Shadowbeat and the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life at bare minimum.

~J

Posted by: GoblynByte Jul 29 2006, 11:39 PM

QUOTE (Drraagh)

My big beef with SR was that there wasn't much in the way of atmosphere. They have all sorts of books on combat in magic, matrix, rigging and flesh, but they don't have many books on themeatic atmosphere besides location books. Shadowbeat was one, yes, and then we got things like the SSG and SOTA books, but they were few and far between. Look at CP2020 when it was out, there were Chromebooks which had items that while you may not want them (detatchable cyber fingers for example, or prayerware), it gave extra theme for the world. It helped to add the punk to the cyberpunk theme, which is something I felt that SR was lacking because it was focusing on cyber and magic which tended to make you more of a killer or whatever, but not on what made the person.

That's why I think it is so important to identify things like guns, gadgets, and gear. That's one of the staples of the cyberpunk genre and the whole "style over substance" milieu. Brand names make the world more identifiable and, in a sense, more socially relevant. Plus, it's just fun to know exactly what the pistol pressing against your nose looks like. Sure, it will still create relatively the same sized crater through your skull (more or less), but, again, style has so much to do with the genre.

It's a matter of taste, I know, but that's what I go for when I buy an "out of the box" game as opposed to a universal system. I want the game world to be so rich and saturated by its own identity that it feels as though i'm visiting another world. Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. had this (and completely destroyed it with v3) and it was good for a time. shadowrun, I think, does this through more stylistic artwork and it does a fantastic job at that. But it also has its own flavor apart from traditional cyberpunk.

Of course, I know all of that is moot since they refuse to plop in an over abundance of pictures due to space restraints. But in the end what lends more to the flavor and enjoyment of the game? Knowing the world you're in? Or a 5th discussion about the game effects of a belt buckle? This, of course, is a rhetorical question as it is very much a matter of taste and is as variable as the number of gamers that play the game.

Thank you ALL for your input. It was all valuable. From what I've gathered so far SR4 is indeed a bit better at giving you a better general overview of the world even if some of the more minor points in the history are glazed over. Once the expansion books start rolling in it sounds to be a very complete game with a very logical division of books.

P.S. Speaking of Cyberpunk, does anyone know what happened to their public boards at Talsorian? The boards dissapeared shortly after v3 came out and I was just wondering is Pondsmith was publicaly eviscerated for his less than admirable work.

Posted by: Ancient History Jul 29 2006, 11:43 PM

Ah, gunporn. You have so many appreciative fans.

Posted by: Drraagh Jul 29 2006, 11:50 PM

Maybe what they need to do is release some more art books like the High Tevh & Low Life book. Have artists draw pictures of gear, weapons, items, etc and release it as a book. Or if someone is really bored, make their own web-based version of it. I took some stuff from the Urban Arcana and other D20 Modern books for some SR gear, even borrowed some of the groups from there to use as different non-corp orgs.

Posted by: Platinum Jul 30 2006, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Drraagh)

I hated that book. Why buy a book of just art? that is what google image search is for.

Shadowrun needs books that add pocket atmosphere. A book dedicated to Tibet, the Ring of Fire, a desert wastelands, or some mysterious city in South America. Really go into detail, like what was done with Seattle. Give it some slightly different flavouring, so people can drop players into the setting that suits them best.

If you look at why DND has done with, forgotten realms, greyhawk, Oriental adventures, Darksun, etc. Their games do not have a timeframe, but allow many different flavours to choose from. A few chrome books offering more cyberware would be neat, but what happens is the authors of new new books try and top the old writers and get people to buy the book because the tech is better. I appreciate that shadowrun has balance to it. I dislike the metaplot and the fact there is a timeline, but those are just "settings" that I can leave out.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Jul 30 2006, 01:49 AM

I don't care so much about the dearth of background materials since I feel like it's easiest and most fun to grab your own stuff from the 80s and/or apply the SR rules to an alternative setting. For example I had a friend who applied them to a steampunk setting and I once ran a 1960s campaign after playing too much No One Lives Forever.

Posted by: Adam Selene Jul 30 2006, 04:43 AM

QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 29 2006, 07:19 PM)

I hated that book. Why buy a book of just art? that is what google image search is for.

Find me a picture of an SR T-Bird then. I bet you can't. Heck, anything even remotely resembling a T-Bird (and don't pick the GDI Orca's, they don't look anything like one)

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 30 2006, 05:03 AM

QUOTE (Adam Selene)

Find me a picture of an SR T-Bird then.

Google's no help, but that's a poor example because a T-bird is one of the few things they did illustrate (even pre-R3R, the picture appears on page 190 of R3).

~J

Posted by: Adam Selene Jul 30 2006, 05:11 AM

It's a poor example because you can find it in the books....but Platinum said you shouldn't buy a book of SR art because google image search could find you all the SR art you need? You said google's no help......and now I'm confused.

Google doesn't have SR T-Birds.
Buying a book of SR art is pointless because google has SR images on it.
...and I can find it in Rigger 3.

...but if I had Rigger 3, why would I be looking for a pic of an SR T-Bird (other than the fact that when I say I want a pic of an SR T-Bird, I mean I want a real picture of it in action, not just a wireframe)

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 30 2006, 05:18 AM

I suspect we're debating different things, but I'm too tired to sort it out tonight.

~J

Posted by: Casazil Jul 30 2006, 07:22 AM

QUOTE (Adam)

Future books [Corporate Enclaves and Feral Cities] covering other locations are planned.

Just wondering this is the first I have heard of these two books Corporate Enclaves and Feral Cities is this new info for us or did you mess up and just announce two new books ahead of time?

Just curious.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 30 2006, 07:51 AM

QUOTE (GoblynByte @ Jul 29 2006, 05:03 PM)

Yes.

Emphatically, Yes.

And every bit of published books, net only published books and articles, and even hunt down vague rumors. Look for clues on freelancer websites, eyc..

When you get hooked on SR, you will never feel you know what/how/why something has really happened, what is going on, or what future changes will shitcan your campaign.

Welcome to the ~~world~~ frustration of Shadowrun!

Posted by: Adam Jul 30 2006, 08:08 AM

QUOTE (Casazil)

Just wondering this is the first I have heard of these two books Corporate Enclaves and Feral Cities is this new info for us or did you mess up and just announce two new books ahead of time?

Neither; they've both been mentioned before, at least as far back as GenCon last year.

Posted by: Grinder Jul 30 2006, 08:28 AM

QUOTE (Adam)

QUOTE

And why is Augmentations so late?

I can imagine that. And I know that it's neither possible nor (from a economic point of view) intelligent to release the new core books too close - but that doesn't change the fact that I want Augmentations now

Anyway, thanks for explaining it; good to know that Synner is there as second developer now.

Posted by: Grinder Jul 30 2006, 08:29 AM

QUOTE (tisoz)

When you get hooked on SR, you will never feel you know what/how/why something has really happened, what is going on, or what future changes will shitcan your campaign.

The WoD gave me the same feeling, as did Deadlands.

Speaking of freelancer websites, which are the "best" ones?

Posted by: Synner Jul 30 2006, 01:20 PM

QUOTE (Casazil @ Jul 30 2006, 07:22 AM)

QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 29 2006, 04:53 PM)

Future books [Corporate Enclaves and Feral Cities] covering other locations are planned.

Just wondering this is the first I have heard of these two books Corporate Enclaves and Feral Cities is this new info for us or did you mess up and just announce two new books ahead of time?

Nope they were actually mentioned by Rob at last year's GenCon they just weren't given names. FanPro will be releasing a number of "themed" sprawl books to introduce a set of core locations. Each will feature two detailed sprawls and 3-4 backup sprawls with distinctly different atmospheres within the same central theme. Runner Havens (Hong-Kong, Seattle, Cape Town, Caracas, Hamburg and Istanbul) is already out and plans are for it to be followed by Corp Enclaves, Feral Cities and eventually Awakened Haunts. I'll leave you to guess what sprawls might make the short list

.

While FanPro's is focused on getting out the 4 advanced rule books, we won't be overlooking fluff. Street Magic, Arsenal, Augmentation and Unwired will feature a lot more setting-oriented information than their SR3 iterations, this includes both fiction vignettes and IC material (along the lines of Awakenings and parts of Cybertechnology). We're also looking to make the gear books at least as "visual" as SR4 BBB though the economics of all those illos can be problematic (FanPro is not WotC).

The first campaign book, Emergence, will also provide quite a bit of world info and context for some of the new elements of the SR4 setting.

For the time being we will not be playing up the SR intricate backstory in any significant way to allow newcomers to better come to grips with the setting without having to worry about all the backlog (this isn't to say tidbits won't keep filtering in but rather that we won't be putting those elements in the spotlight in the near future).

QUOTE (Grinder)

Anyway, thanks for explaining it; good to know that Synner is there as second developer now.

Well, now the secret's out (actually some of those paying attention to the Street Magic product sheet on SRRPG.com had already caught on). Robyn and I have been recruited as developers-in-training

Posted by: Grinder Jul 30 2006, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (Grinder)

Anyway, thanks for explaining it; good to know that Synner is there as second developer now.

Well, now the secret's out (actually some of those paying attention to the Street Magic product sheet on SRRPG.com had already caught on. Robyn and I have been recruited as developers-in-training

Hehe, no big suprise after all.