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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Good Merges and Magicians.
Posted by: knasser Jul 31 2006, 07:04 PM
I want a good merge between an insect spirit (probably wasp) and a mage and I want the mage to preserve his magical power. I've gone through Magic in the Shadows and it dosen't explicitly rule this out as far as I can see. It says that skills and knowledge is preserved. It doesn't say that anything else is lost, as far as I can see.
So I think I'll GM fiat this, but I want to know if there are any cannon examples of this or similar to back me up. Also, if there are any strong arguments against it I'd be interested to hear them. I know that the merge is more or less irreversible, but it is still possession and the mage isn't dead, as such. There's still part of him in there, I think.
Thoughts, opinions, random off-topic posts about SR4 vs. SR3? 
Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 31 2006, 07:25 PM
wow, thats a hard one. and outside of the SR4 vs SR3 post at the bottom i would say this one belongs over on the other section...
Posted by: SL James Jul 31 2006, 07:28 PM
It says that memories are preserved and the good merges can mimic the host. The only spirits that, according to the rules, retain skills and Edges/Flaws are Master Shedim.
I've thought about this myself. Quite a bit.
Posted by: Schaeffer Jul 31 2006, 07:29 PM
I doubt that this answers any of your questions, but the way our GM looked at it was, the host's spirit/soul/whatever was destroyed/consumed in the process of investiture. Sure, the bug had access to the host body's memories, and therefore old skills, but at a reduced ability or recollection (at least until they acclimated to their new home). I guess basically the host was the spirit's doorway and vessel into the "real" world, and the bug was merely pretending to be the host, or pretending that part of the host's spirit/soul/whatever still existed in there somewhere.
Like I said, that was his take, and I guess magical abilities might fall under the idea that a host's skills in life might be retained, but I dunno. If I were a GM, I'd say not, but that's without any rules or guidelines here at hand.
Good luck with your game, and if you do end up with a good-merge/bug masquerading as a mage, let my team in on his address 
We'll make it worth your while.
Posted by: Brahm Jul 31 2006, 07:31 PM
Since SR4 info on bug spirits isn't out for a few weeks yet I agree that you'll be drawing on a much larger base in general SR forum. Nothing useful to add beyond that, since your impression is my impression but like you I can't recall any specific canon examples of it.
Posted by: SL James Jul 31 2006, 07:37 PM
Oh, as for examples. The only Good Merges I can think of offhand are General Yeats and Dirk Montgomery's sister in House of the Sun. Neither of them were mages though, but the Wasp spirit (weird, they all seem to be wasps) possessing his sister had her memories, but when pressed he could tell it wasn't her. As for skills... *shrugs* She didn't seem to have any appreciable skills to begin with AFAIK.
Posted by: Grinder Jul 31 2006, 07:47 PM
| QUOTE (knasser) |
| random off-topic posts about SR4 vs. SR3? |
Not again, please not again!
Posted by: SL James Jul 31 2006, 07:51 PM
Anyway, I'd wish you godspeed, but if I didn't turn my social adept into a Force 8 free Mantis spirit yet, I doubt there's much chance for you.
Posted by: Schaeffer Jul 31 2006, 07:56 PM
Neat topic!
Wasn't Anne Penchyk of the Empowerment Coalition (?) also a good merge? Another non-mage, if so. Perhaps the bugs avoid mages unless absolutely necessary...
As an aside, in our longest-running SR campaign, we found out toward the end that one of the team members (an actual PC) had been a good-merge mantid for several game years. I guess she had somehow been masked and the team shaman (the only one who could have assensed her nature) who'd been shacked up with her for a good while either never caught on or didn't care.
Posted by: Grinder Jul 31 2006, 08:13 PM
That's scaring. How did the other team members react? Most chars of mine would kill the good-merger, especially after the whole UB/ Chicago-mess.
Posted by: knasser Jul 31 2006, 08:15 PM
| QUOTE (Schaeffer) |
| I doubt that this answers any of your questions, but the way our GM looked at it was, the host's spirit/soul/whatever was destroyed/consumed in the process of investiture. Sure, the bug had access to the host body's memories, and therefore old skills, but at a reduced ability or recollection (at least until they acclimated to their new home). I guess basically the host was the spirit's doorway and vessel into the "real" world, and the bug was merely pretending to be the host, or pretending that part of the host's spirit/soul/whatever still existed in there somewhere. Like I said, that was his take, and I guess magical abilities might fall under the idea that a host's skills in life might be retained, but I dunno. If I were a GM, I'd say not, but that's without any rules or guidelines here at hand. Good luck with your game, and if you do end up with a good-merge/bug masquerading as a mage, let my team in on his address We'll make it worth your while. |
The way that I see it is that with a True Form, the host's spirit is destroyed. That's what you get for not having much willpower to fend off the invasion with. I also think that this is the result that an insect spirit Queen / Mother actually wants as it's the true representation of a the insect form (along with being pretty powerful). But I see a closer match between the contest of wills to mean that an actual merge of some sort is taking place. The insect fails to completely obliterate the hosts original form which survives to some extent, even if only in physical body. A good merge I see as the host managing to preserve much of the original mind as well as the body. So they may be irrevocably possessed, but they have fought the spirit into a position of unification rather than being completely overwhelmed. In this case, I think it would be possible for for magic to be preserved.
| QUOTE (Shaeffer) |
| As an aside, in our longest-running SR campaign, we found out toward the end that one of the team members (an actual PC) had been a good-merge mantid for several game years. I guess she had somehow been masked and the team shaman (the only one who could have assensed her nature) who'd been shacked up with her for a good while either never caught on or didn't care. |
Heh. He should watch himself. I mean we all get a little peckish after sex, but with a mantid, pizza might not be enough, if you get me.
Posted by: Schaeffer Jul 31 2006, 08:30 PM
If I remember correctly, the mantid's body was never found after a Thor-Strike (arranged beforehand, I don't remember how) leveled the Penumbra in Seattle, where a meet with that mantid and her cohorts, The Desolation Angels, had been arranged...
As for the shaman, we was nearly killed by a majority of the team, but somehow talked his way out of it, convincing all involved that he'd had no idea what was going on.
On the other hand, it turned out that yet another PC in the team (talk about poor security) had made a deal with the mantids on his own. He would have become either a new host, or possibly some kind of insect shaman/cheerleader if he hadn't been included on the Penumbra's invitation list....
His remains (a smudge blotted up with towels) WERE recovered by the Ares Firewatch Team sent in afterwards.
Posted by: Apathy Jul 31 2006, 09:15 PM
Since there's no mention of the rules for insect spirits in the SR4 BBB, you could play it any way you wanted until Street Magic came out. I remember this was discussed a lot in SR3, and I don't think anyone had a definitive conclusion, but most people voted that the 'memories and skills' that good merges retained did not include their magical quality.
If you're looking for an argument the other way though, you could always cite Threats II, which allowed paranormal critters that were merged with bugs to retain their paranormal powers, provided the merge was good enough. ('Good' merges - those with a half-dozen or so net successes on the possession vs. will role got to retain all their pre-merged powers, while 'Less-Good' merges only retained some of the previous powers.) If you go by the philosophy that awakened metahumanity are equivalent to paranormal people, then you could treat their special qualities (Mage, Adept, Technomancer, etc.) as powers that they had a chance of retaining. In order for the magician in question to have any chance of becoming a good merge, though, the investing spirit would have to have a very low force (or be a female mantid, which are alway good merges).
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 31 2006, 09:21 PM
Maybe a good balancing factor would be that the Magic rating of the good merge is capped at the force of the spirit. If it's a low force spirit, it'll have modest magical abilities, and if it's a high-force spirit it's unlikely to get a good merge.
It lets you get away with this, but prevents force 12 good merge grade 6 initiates running around. (or at least makes them very, very, VERY rare)
Posted by: SL James Jul 31 2006, 10:41 PM
| QUOTE (Schaeffer) |
| Neat topic! Wasn't Anne Penchyk of the Empowerment Coalition (?) also a good merge? |
Not necessarily. Her stats were for an unaugmented ork, and to "summon" a spirit the way she does in dead Run, she didn't need to be a mage, per se.
Posted by: Apathy Aug 1 2006, 02:28 AM
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| Since there's no mention of the rules for insect spirits in the SR4 BBB, you could play it any way you wanted until Street Magic came out. I remember this was discussed a lot in SR3, and I don't think anyone had a definitive conclusion, but most people voted that the 'memories and skills' that good merges retained did not include their magical quality. If you're looking for an argument the other way though, you could always cite Threats II, which allowed paranormal critters that were merged with bugs to retain their paranormal powers, provided the merge was good enough. ('Good' merges - those with a half-dozen or so net successes on the possession vs. will role got to retain all their pre-merged powers, while 'Less-Good' merges only retained some of the previous powers.) If you go by the philosophy that awakened metahumanity are equivalent to paranormal people, then you could treat their special qualities (Mage, Adept, Technomancer, etc.) as powers that they had a chance of retaining. In order for the magician in question to have any chance of becoming a good merge, though, the investing spirit would have to have a very low force (or be a female mantid, which are alway good merges). |
Of course, this gets really sick when you get the high-level initiate vampire to use his enhanced attributes on his willpower to get a ridiculous number of successes, so that all his powers and magic come through his transition to a good merge intact. Just think: a force 5 or 6 bug, that also has high-level magic, mist form, essence drain, regeneration...
then let it go free when you kill the mother spirit...
Posted by: SL James Aug 1 2006, 08:19 AM
I thought all of the creatures in Threats 2 were non-sentient. IOW, creatures like ghouls and vampires would apply different rules (the ones in MitS).
Posted by: Apathy Aug 1 2006, 03:09 PM
| QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 1 2006, 03:19 AM) |
| I thought all of the creatures in Threats 2 were non-sentient. IOW, creatures like ghouls and vampires would apply different rules (the ones in MitS). |
The paranormal creatures used as examples in Threats II were non-sapient, but there was nothing in the rules or fluff text indicating that it only worked on non-sentients. All the examples were four-legged mammals as well, but I wouldn't assume that this meant I couldn't invest a novoscorpion or an embracer.
[fixed]
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Aug 1 2006, 03:30 PM
| QUOTE (Wikipedia) |
| Sentience is the capacity for basic consciousness — the ability to feel or perceive, not necessarily including the faculty of self-awareness. The word sentient is often confused with the word sapient, which can connotate knowledge, higher consciousness, or apperception. The root of the confusion is that the word conscious has a number of different meanings in English. (One can easily distinguish the two by looking at their Latin roots: sentire, "to feel"; and sapere, "to know".) |
Posted by: SL James Aug 1 2006, 04:50 PM
Well, I was just using it in the same way SR has, to appy to only a limited number of self-aware creatures like (meta)humans, Infected, Sasquatches, and maybe merrow and naga.
Posted by: Brahm Aug 1 2006, 04:54 PM
Page 290 of the SR4 BBB, Sapience power. Although perhaps SR3 used Sentience [incorrectly] in places?
Posted by: SL James Aug 1 2006, 05:08 PM
SR1-3. Yeah.
Posted by: Brahm Aug 1 2006, 05:29 PM
I thought I remembered that, I just didn't want to sift through all the books trying to find the reference. The Critters book doesn't have as a power like it is in SR4. Incidentally in SR4 Merrow and Naga are listed as Sapient. Bizzarely Wendigos do not have the power listed. I'm pretty sure that is a typographic mistake/oversight rather than intentional.
Posted by: Charon Aug 2 2006, 01:56 PM
I don't really know if a good merge mage keeping his powers is canon, but it's easy to see why a good merge mage is unlikely. It's a willpower test and all decent mage have high willpower. Good merge tend to have low willpower.
From a story POV, it's also easy to see why no authors ever made one ; A bug influenced magician is usually an Insect Shaman. To add flesh form mage confuse the issue and weaken the concept.
Neither are arguments against the existence of a good merge magician, just good reasons why it's not a very good plot device.
It's the same problem as a flesh form Physads. Would these be uber cool? Nah, it's functionnally not very different from a real tough flesh form or a real tough physads. It serves no particular story purpose. A twisted path physads or a brother turned flesh form are much better plot device than a physad fleshform.
Sorta the same thing with a good merge mage that isn't an insect shaman. It'd be much better to see a formerly upstanding hermetic mage corrupted to the ways of the Firefly totem, for example. Better for the story, anyway.
Posted by: SL James Aug 2 2006, 02:11 PM
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| I don't really know if a good merge mage keeping his powers is canon, but it's easy to see why a good merge mage is unlikely. It's a willpower test and all decent mage have high willpower. Good merge tend to have low willpower. |
You've got that backwards. Good Merges require hosts with Willpower 5+
Posted by: Charon Aug 2 2006, 02:16 PM
| QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 2 2006, 09:11 AM) | ||
You've got that backwards. Good Merges require hosts with Willpower 5+ |
Well, it seems SR3 is fading away, isn't it.
I still stand by the rest of my post.
Posted by: SL James Aug 2 2006, 03:21 PM
Fair enough.
Posted by: Apathy Aug 2 2006, 04:27 PM
As noted before, in order to achieve a good merge, the opposed will-vs-force test has to yield a bunch of net successes for the host, so this means the summoner has to use low-force spirits to have any chance of success. This is a net negative to the overall power of the hive, which is limited in the total number of spirits it can bring over, and would want the spirits it does bring to be as strong as possible.
From a 'suspension of disbelief' perspective, the shaman or mother spirit has two incentives for making Good Merges:
- Annonymity - The hive needs people who can interact with the world undetected. For this, they might be able to use anybody, but I'd suspect they'd try to focus on people with high charisma and good social skills.
- Special Skills/Knowledge - This is exactly the sort of thing that would cause good merge adepts. If I'm the mother spirit, I can invest anybody with a level 6 spirit and make a true form. On the other hand, if I've just captured a high-level mage, I have a strong incentive to try to make him into a good merge, instead.
As a final note, I'd comment that by canon ALL female mantid spirits are good merges. So for that particular scenario you don't need a rationale.
Posted by: knasser Aug 3 2006, 09:21 AM
Thanks for all of the replies. I particularly like the idea of limiting magic by force and I agree with the points about shamans becoming twisted being better in many ways. I do have a specific character in mind for this, however, so a good merge is what is needed.
I suppose an Increase or Decrease Willpower spell would be useful to the Insect Shaman for adjusting the results of the merge.
Cheers,
-K.
Posted by: Masterofthegame Aug 3 2006, 11:31 AM
Wow, I guess I never paid enough attention, because it never occurred to me that you couldn't make a good merge with a magician.
In my last game the group's mage got a call from another party member while spending the night with his new pseudo-girlfriend (long-story). He told him that he had to get out of there. The mage (who had ducked into the bathroom) opened the door to make his excuses and the girl was just standing there in front of him. Finally deciding it was a good idea to assense her, he found out whe was a mantid. Remembering what female mantid do to their mates, he freaked out and ran. She hit him with a force 12 mana bolt and he just jumped over the rail and off the balcony of the third story apartment, and ran down the street... Naked.
He started yelling and screaming, and when the players asked what he was doing, he said he was hoping that he would get arrested by the Star so they would save him...
I guess you had to be there.
Posted by: SL James Aug 3 2006, 11:44 AM
It worked for Jeffrey Dahmer's last would-be victim. Not so much for another one, though. Cops can be capricious.
Posted by: knasser Aug 3 2006, 12:14 PM
| QUOTE (Masterofthegame) |
| In my last game the group's mage got a call from another party member while spending the night with his new pseudo-girlfriend (long-story). He told him that he had to get out of there. The mage (who had ducked into the bathroom) opened the door to make his excuses and the girl was just standing there in front of him. Finally deciding it was a good idea to assense her, he found out whe was a mantid. Remembering what female mantid do to their mates, he freaked out and ran. She hit him with a force 12 mana bolt and he just jumped over the rail and off the balcony of the third story apartment, and ran down the street... Naked. |
You just have to practice safe sex. In this case, that means having a very well-stocked refrigerator before bringing home any insect-spirit girls.
But reading posts here, is it fair to say that most of us have been in a game where a female mantid has attempted to seduce a player character? Just seems that they might be one of those universal character types.
Posted by: Critias Aug 3 2006, 12:22 PM
No female Mantids yet, but I've had two different D&D characters, in two different campaigns, under two different GMs, get attacked by barmaids that turned out to be vampires.
Posted by: SL James Aug 3 2006, 12:33 PM
Not exactly seduce, no. More like attempted to recruit.
Posted by: Charon Aug 3 2006, 01:19 PM
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| No female Mantids yet, but I've had two different D&D characters, in two different campaigns, under two different GMs, get attacked by barmaids that turned out to be vampires. |
Eh. In D&D our party once stepped in a clearly Ravenloft themed inn.
Very, very obviously our DM suggested there was something weird and sinister with the owner, bar tender and waiter(ress). The males were a bit hairy and male and females alike looked feral (in his words).
Okay, so, werewolves.
A 'feral' waitress lay the seduction thick on my PC and to everyone's surprise I respond favorably (But I figured he would, being a low wisdom womanizer). A female PC tries to warn me, a waiter NPC starts laying the seduction on her. She's low charisma as hell and decide she's desperate for attention so she too starts responding favorably (Cue in groans from the rest of the party).
Then my PC exclaim : ''Wait, no one would be interested in her. Maybe this IS a tr...''
But the DM interrupt and says our PC are invited to join the waiters in the back of the inn for some fun...
Me and the other player look at each other in silence for two seconds. Then we exclaim simulteneously :
''WE GONNA SCORE TONIGHT!''
And we joined them, giggling all the while. Another PC said ''I give them five minutes before we hear them screaming like little girls''.
Since that scene had sanked so low into comedy already, the DM decided to simply state that 5 minutes later the rest of the party heard us scream like little girl and they rushed in the back to find us fighting for our life buck naked. Roll initiative.
It was funny.
In SR, it might be a bit less appropriate but then again, fun is fun. Of course, you have to trust the GM not to deal instant death on you just for one bit of comedy so you might ask first.
Posted by: Apathy Aug 3 2006, 01:47 PM
One problem I have with the write-ups of flesh form good merges is that, although they keep the hosts memories and skills, they're still stuck with the bug's mental stats. Combining this with rules which kind of force good merges to only happen with low force spirits, and you end up with mages and faces that have only 1 or 2 in willpower and charisma. Not only does this make them mostly ineffective, it also means that they wouldn't still be able to pass as the characters realistically.
Posted by: booklord Aug 3 2006, 02:16 PM
From the adventures I'd mention that the insect spirits tend to pull off "good merges" a little too often when it comes to high ranking political and corporate officials.
Now it's possible that the wasp queen that invested General Yeats just got lucky. But I doubt it. Nor do I think he was invested with a weak spirit. His mental stats were such that noone caught on.
Even though the rules don't mention it the fluff (especially the stuff about the secret hive) highly suggests that the insect queens and/or shamans can influence the investment process to increase the odds of a "good merge".
Posted by: SL James Aug 3 2006, 03:00 PM
If a Queen/Mother helps, add +2 to the host's TN - from mits. forgot to catch the page number.
But, yeah. All the canon good merges (Desolation Angels, Yeats, Penchyk if necessary, and Agent Cohen) are all ~ Force 5 or 6 spirits.
Posted by: knasser Aug 3 2006, 04:53 PM
| QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 3 2006, 10:00 AM) |
| If a Queen/Mother helps, add +2 to the host's TN - from mits. forgot to catch the page number. But, yeah. All the canon good merges (Desolation Angels, Yeats, Penchyk if necessary, and Agent Cohen) are all ~ Force 5 or 6 spirits. |
Well the usual portrayal of the merge process is that it's a contest of wills between the spirit and the host with the spirit aiming to achieve true spirit status. Strong willed people resist this and the very strongest force the spirit into a semblance of themselves (good merge). Is there any reason why the investing spirit, if it were instructed to by the Queen or Shaman, couldn't fail its roll on purpose? Normally in an opposed contest you could do this if you wished. This would allow high force spirits to achieve good merges. It fits fluff, rules and cannon so why not? It's normally a disadvantage because you've wasted a high force spirit that counts towards your total as a weak incarnation. But if the shaman can persuade the queen that it's necessary...
EDIT: The host still needs to get five successes mind you, which would explain in 2XS, why the insects were scouring for strong willed people.
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