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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ I need cyberpunk novels now.
Posted by: emo samurai Oct 11 2006, 09:47 PM
and Burning Chrome, and the Diamond Age, and Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive. I've heard good things about Walter Jon Williams's Hardwired, but what else is out there?
Posted by: Fortune Oct 11 2006, 10:02 PM
Speaking of cyberpunk(ish) novels, I can never remember the names of the elfpunk books that some people referenced back on the old forums. 
Posted by: nezumi Oct 11 2006, 10:06 PM
Anything by Bruce Sterling. I think you'd like Snow Crash too (a lot of people complain about how the hero is named Hiro Protagonist, but I think you'd appreciate that).
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 11 2006, 10:09 PM
A Scanner Darkly
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Lies, Incorporated
And a lot of other stuff by Philip K. Dick.
Edit: also, since you already have Burning Chrome, reread Dogfight. Then, if you don't mind more magic and less cyber, go find The Iron Dragon's Daughter, by Michael Swanwick (who cowrote Dogfight). I'd recommend his other works, though they vary between cyberpunkish and more straight-up science fiction.
~J
Posted by: Fortune Oct 11 2006, 10:10 PM
I swear he originally listed Snow Crash in his post, because it was the first (and only, other than Hardwired or Gibson) book I would have recommended.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 11 2006, 10:27 PM
http://web.archive.org/web/20031022224852/sfrevu.com/ISSUES/2003/0309/The+User's+Guide+to+the+Postmoderns/Review.htm, to be taken as you will.
http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/~erich/cheaptruth/.
~J
Posted by: Fortune Oct 11 2006, 10:31 PM
What makes you think I actually want to read up on what I want to read? 
Posted by: PlainWhiteSocks Oct 11 2006, 11:02 PM
How about Greg Bear's Slant.
Tricia Sullivan's Someone To Watch Over Me was pretty good. Some of her other works have cyberpunk type elements in them as well.
There's also Trouble and Her Friends by Melissa Scott. Lots of computer/matrix stuff in there. I didn't much like it, but several friends of mine did.
Posted by: Calvin Hobbes Oct 11 2006, 11:06 PM
Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets puts you into the model of old-fashioned crime and grit, with healthy amounts of racism, class warfare, and general criminal behavior.
NOIR, by KW Jeter, is another good book, more cyberpunk (spinal cords as stereo cables!) but less rooted in reality. The other two blade runner books aren't very tied to the movie, but tell some really really bizarre stories at the edge of science fiction.
Posted by: mfb Oct 11 2006, 11:47 PM
Slant, Greg Bear: goddamn fantastic, though it seemed more post-cyberpunk than cyberpunk (if you care to make such divisions). neat nanotech stuff, somewhat more realistic than Diamond Age, as well as being a really neat insight into how AIs might work.
Technogenesis, Syne Mitchell: fairly standard plot, but interesting tech and tech techniques.
Heavy Weather, Bruce Sterling: good story, quite useful as an example of how people deal with advances in technology.
Schismatrix Plus, Bruce Sterling: neat ideas about human augmentation, and about augmentation as a path (or paths, really) to human evolution. if you're interested in post-humanity, start here.
Snow Crash, Neal Stephenson: if you haven't read this, what in the name of God is wrong with you?
Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 11 2006, 11:50 PM
I'd recommend John Courtney Grimwood's Arabesk trilogy - Pashazade, Effendi and Felaheen respectively.
Edit: Uh, guys? Might want to check the thread title before you keep mentioning Snow Crash. Even if it is a cool book. 
Posted by: Backgammon Oct 12 2006, 12:08 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Altered-Carbon-Richard-Morgan/dp/0345457684/sr=8-1/qid=1160610086/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0352758-6912764?ie=UTF8&s=books is some of the best post-cyberpunk you're going to read. The 2 other books of the trilogy kinda slowly slant away from cyberpunk, but once you've read the first one you'll probably want to read the other 2 because they are teh awesome.
http://www.amazon.com/Perdido-Street-Station-China-Mieville/dp/0345459407/sr=1-1/qid=1160610179/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0352758-6912764?ie=UTF8&s=books is fantasy steampunk rather than cyberpunk, but all the themes and elements are there. A fantastic read.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 12:48 AM
We've done this a bit before, but...
Anthologies:
The Ultimate Cyberpunk
Mirrorshades
William Gibson:
Burning Chrome
Neuromancer
Count Zero
Mona Lisa Overdrive
Virtual Light
Idoru
All Tomorrow's Parties
John Shirley:
City Come A Walkin
The Exploded Heart
Eclipse
Eclipse Penumbra
Eclipse Corona
Pat Cadigan:
Mind Players
Synners
Patterns
Dervish is Digital (Not her best, I admit)
Bruce Sterling:
Globalhead
A Good, Old-Fashioned Future
Crystal Express
Islands in the Net
Heavy Weather
Distraction
Visionary in Residence (Verging into ribofunk)
Neal Stephenson:
Snowcrash
The Diamond Age
Also recommended:
Interzone (A British sci-fi mag featuring several prominent Cyberpunk authors, colelctions available)
Hip Flask/Elephantmen (Comic series by Active Image, very technonoir. Think Blade Runner)
Transmetropolitan (Comic series by Warren Ellis, firmly postcyberpunk)
Desolation Jones (Comic series by Warren Ellis, firmly slipstream)
Lazarus Churchyard (Comic series by Warren Ellis and D'israeli, very cyberpunk. Also look for their collaborations in the pages of Unlimited 2099)
The Winter Men (Comic series by Brett Lewis and John Paul Leon, firmly slipstream)
Ghostrider 2099 (First couple issues are good, look for the cyberpunk references.)
The Hacker Crackdown (non-fiction by Bruce Sterling, avalable for free)
Ghost in the Shell (Graphic novel/series/manga by Masamune Shirow)
Shatter (Graphic novel by Michael Saenz and Peter Gillis)
Silent Dragon (Graphic novel by Andy Diggle, Leinil Francis Yu, and Gerry Alanguilan)
The Difference Engine (a collaboration 'tween Bruce Sterling and William Gibson)
Achilles Choice (By Larry Niven and Steve Barnes)
Cryptonomicon (By Neal Stephenson, thought by some the beginning transition to Slipstream)
The Baroque Cycle (By Neal Stephenson, 8 books broken into 3 volumes, Slipstream/steampunk)
Pattern Recognition (A new William Gibson novel, firmly Slipstream)
Posted by: Dale Oct 12 2006, 12:54 AM
Marc D. Giller's
- Hammerjack
- Prodigal
..and maybe even a Shadowrun novel or 50
Posted by: krayola red Oct 12 2006, 01:07 AM
How come people like Snow Crash so much? I don't recall it being all that good a story, although I only read it once, in a superficial manner, and a long time ago at that. I'm thinking about reading it again just to see what the hype is all about.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 01:15 AM
Like with many books, opinion differs. I like it for the characters, the writing style, the plot, and the setting. Others like and dislike it for one or more of the above reasons, among others. <shrug>
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 02:13 AM
- The Long Run ~ Daniel Keys Moran
- Hardwired ~ Walter Jon Williams
- Voice of the Whirlwind ~ Walter Jon Williams
- Kaleidoscope Century ~ John Barnes
- When Gravity Fails ~ George Alec Effinger
- Friday ~ Robert Heinlein
- Battle Angel Alita/Gunnm (Various incarnations and media.) ~ Kishiro Yukito
- All nine volumes of the original manga, and all seven volumes of Last Order that have been released so far.
- Ghost in the Shell (Various incarnations and media.) ~ Shirow Masamune
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 02:14 AM
| QUOTE (krayola red) |
| How come people like Snow Crash so much? I don't recall it being all that good a story [...] |
Yes, I also strongly disliked Snow Crash.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 02:30 AM
Friday, while a decent novel, is most definately not cyberpunk.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2006, 02:31 AM
| QUOTE (mfb @ Oct 11 2006, 06:47 PM) |
| Snow Crash, Neal Stephenson: if you haven't read this, what in the name of God is wrong with you? |
Taste, possibly.
It was entertaining, but even knowing it was intentional didn't alleviate the pain from the massive doses of stupid the book liked to throw everywhere. It's a very clever parody of cyberpunk, but way, way too heavy-handed about it.
~J
Posted by: emo samurai Oct 12 2006, 02:35 AM
Yeah, I disliked the satire angle; I would have liked more snippets like Bruce Lee's shirt made of human hair.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2006, 02:37 AM
See, that's the problem, though. The snippets like Bruce Lee's shirt made of human hair were the satire. It's been a long time since I've read it, but I can't remember anything significant from the book that wasn't satirical. It's just a matter of how obvious it is.
He took everything in the genre and turned it to eleven. The problem was, he did this even with stuff that was already turned to eleven in serious Cyberpunk, so it just ended up sitting out in the stratosphere somewhere.
~J
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 02:39 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Friday, while a decent novel, is most definately not cyberpunk. |
Ah, but Friday was cyberpunk.
It contained most of the classic elements.
Balkanization of governments.
Chaotic laws.
Supertechnology giving rise to genetic engineering for human enhancement and the creation of artificial lifeforms, and their impact on society and the world.
Cybernetics were mentioned but not showcased on stage.
Prejudice against the enhanced and their problems.
Corporations ruling (or at least strongly influencing) the world.
Small wars fought between nations and groups in covert and semi-covert situations.
Covert missions for various reasons. (Shadowruns. Friday was, effectively, a Shadowrunner working for a man who was, effectively, a Fixer/Mr. Johnson.)
The only thing it did not specifically contain was Virtual Reality/Matrix/Simsense (or equivalent naming), although it most certainly had a global world-wide network of computers with considerable information retreival capability, including fully continuous on demand access to all media from throughout the world in any format (with what seemed to be considerable history available).
Posted by: krayola red Oct 12 2006, 02:43 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| Yes, I also strongly disliked Snow Crash. |
My main beef with Snow Crash is that I found none of the characters to be very interesting or developed, but I wouldn't go as far as to say I strongly disliked it. There were definitely many redeeming qualities about it, enough so that I would read Stephenson again if given the opportunity.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 02:50 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
It's a very clever parody of cyberpunk, but way, way too heavy-handed about it. |
You think it was a parody?
Hmm, I hadn't thought of that.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 02:51 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel @ Oct 12 2006, 02:39 AM) | ||
Ah, but Friday was cyberpunk. It contained most of the classic elements. |
No, Friday was in all respects a typical straight science fiction story of the era. It lacked the cyberpunk attitude and style, no matter how many common (but far from universal) traits it may have shared. Contrast Bruce Sterling's Schismatrix with Larry Niven's Known Space, for an example.
There was nothing new introduced in cyberpunk - only a new method of looking at what had already been introduced in sci fi previously. Cyberpunk was ever a loose genre, and ideally you should restrict it to the output of certain authors during a certain period.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2006, 02:58 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel @ Oct 11 2006, 09:50 PM) | ||||
You think it was a parody? |
It was absolutely a parody. Cyberpunk has balkanization? Snow Crash is balkanized down to the neighborhood level. Cyberpunk has inflation? Snow Crash has, what, million-dollar values being thrown around on a daily basis. Life is cheap in cyberpunk? In Snow Crash, you risk your life to deliver pizza on time.
So on and soforth.
The problem is where cyberpunk is already a bit silly. Take monowire, for instance. Monowire you (or at least I) can squinch your eyes a little bit and take seriously, if only for a minute. Glass knives, while probably only a few orders of magnitude more silly than monowire (where silly is measured in newtons), go beyond that point and into the territory of the just-plain-crazy. So on and soforth.
~J
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 03:00 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) | ||||
No, Friday was in all respects a typical straight science fiction story of the era. It lacked the cyberpunk attitude and style, [...] |
I disagree.
While Friday may not qualify as what would later become classic cyberpunk due to atmospheric concerns, it's whole milieu is cyberpunkish, and I refer to it as quasi-cyberpunk.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2006, 03:02 AM
I don't remember much in Friday that would qualify as "punk", or indeed in Heinlein's writing as a whole, but I do admit it's been at least six years since I read Friday.
~J
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 03:04 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
It was absolutely a parody. |
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was opening my eyes to your viewpoint.
I tend to have a very limited capacity for parody, which may explain why I so unconsciously rejected the whole novel.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2006, 03:07 AM
I was just excited because someone finally gave me the excuse to give the justification I should have given up front but didn't because something about doling information out in small chunks makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Don't mind me 
~J
Posted by: emo samurai Oct 12 2006, 03:10 AM
Yeah, calling the main dude "Hiro Protagonist" and making him arbitrarily the greatest swordfighter was pushing it.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 03:15 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I don't remember much in Friday that would qualify as "punk", or indeed in Heinlein's writing as a whole, but I do admit it's been at least six years since I read Friday. ~J |
I've read Friday several times.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 03:16 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel @ Oct 12 2006, 03:00 AM) | ||||||
I disagree. While Friday may not qualify as what would later become classic cyberpunk due to atmospheric concerns, it's whole milieu is cyberpunkish, and I refer to it as quasi-cyberpunk. |
It's a false categorization. The milieu, in this case, is much less cyberpunk than (for an example) Brave New World, which at least has a classic dystopian atmosphere. There is no "street-awareness" in Friday; the main character is a nymphomaniac artificial super-spy who works for a fully-funded organization - and when that falls out she finds a job almost immediately. She never feels true desperation. I wouldn't discriminate against the novel on account of the space opera elements, but it also doesn't owe any sort of debt to previous cyberpunk or pre-cyberpunk (immediate pre-cyberpunk, like John Shirley) works.
Posted by: Slithery D Oct 12 2006, 03:26 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
|
This one needs to be second and thirded. Good luck with your used copy search online.
Posted by: Fortune Oct 12 2006, 03:26 AM
Y'all are avoidin' the issue. I really wanna know 'bout them there 'elf-punk' books.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 03:31 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 12 2006, 03:26 AM) |
| Y'all are avoidin' the issue. I really wanna know 'bout them there 'elf-punk' books. |
Mercedes Lackey (with others), the SERRAted Edge/Diana Tregarde/Bedlam's Bard series. Also, if you can find it, the Bordertown anthologies edited by Terry Windling.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 03:35 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
It's a false categorization. |
I do not feel it is.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
The milieu, in this case, is much less cyberpunk than (for an example) Brave New World, which at least has a classic dystopian atmosphere. |
Friday's future-Earth was quite dystopian.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
There is no "street-awareness" in Friday; |
There wasn't one in Voice of the Whirlwind, either. That's razor-hot cyberpunk to the core.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
the main character is a nymphomaniac |
Hardly.
Why is it that women who are comfortable with sexuality and sex are labeled with derogatory names (invented by men)? (Yes, that is a rhetorical question.)
Men can have sex as much as they want and that's good (or "playboyish"), but if a women does the same thing, she's a "women of ill-repute".
(Hint: This is one of the "Ms. Grundy" topics of modern anglo-saxon society Heinlein tossed into his novels in order to provide illumination for his readers.)
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
artificial super-spy who works for a fully-funded organization - and when that falls out she finds a job almost immediately. |
Friday does not "almost immediately" find another job. She languishes, unable to find a job, and then eventually has to take what is available, leading to a minor disaster.| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
She never wants for anything |
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 03:38 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) | ||
I do not feel it is. |
Which is really the crux of the dilemma. As much as I like literary arguing, we've come full circle with our arguements, basically. Agree to disagree?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2006, 03:39 AM
Friday's problem is not how much or little sex she has. Her problem is that she was written by Heinlein, which makes her a nymphomaniac.
~J
Posted by: Fortune Oct 12 2006, 03:42 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Mercedes Lackey (with others), the SERRAted Edge/Diana Tregarde/Bedlam's Bard series. Also, if you can find it, the Bordertown anthologies edited by Terry Windling. |
Danke.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 03:42 AM
De nada.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 12 2006, 03:43 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
Which is really the crux of the dilemma. As much as I like literary arguing, we've come full circle with our arguements, basically. Agree to disagree? |
We have reached that point.
Posted by: Glyph Oct 12 2006, 03:55 AM
To me, the trouble with Snow Crash was that it took parody past the point of sly and to the point of ham-handed camp. He also seemed to be a wee bit too impressed with his own cleverness, and the obnoxious stereotypes didn't help, either. All told, it could have been a lot better.
By the way, if you check out Ghost in the Shell, the manga is way better than the movie.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2006, 04:02 AM
The first manga collection is awesome. The second manga collection is kinda like watching a grand-master chess tournament, only you don't know chess and no one's explaining what's going on—there's obviously something happening, someone is making brilliant moves or errors, but damned if you can figure out who, what, when, or why. Oh, and this chess is totally fictional, too, so you can't even learn the rules.
Plus, Shirow is definitely giving in to his dream of being an H artist.
~J
Posted by: Deamon_Knight Oct 12 2006, 04:24 AM
Nailed the Discription Kage. I always wanted to capture GitS SAC atmosphere in Shadowrun, but the complete ignorance the story keeps the viewer in, and the lengths it goes too, simply defy capture in a GAME, where PLAYERS want to know the BASIC RULES. Still, I think Gits:SAC and Full Metal Alchemist (which air about the same time in my area) would make great fodder for a campagin if I were only a bit smarter.
Posted by: emo samurai Oct 12 2006, 05:08 AM
As for Snow Crash being a parody of cyberpunk as a whole, who does Hiro Protagonist make fun of? I know the general idea of "LOL HAXXOR AND KATANA WIELDER," but are there any instances of that cliche?
Posted by: mfb Oct 12 2006, 06:22 AM
while it's certainly true that Snow Crash (and Diamond Age) used satire, i don't think it's fair to simply label them as just satire. it was also good, interesting science fiction whose basic premises actually make a lot more sense than anything William Gibson's ever put out. using sarcasm to make a point doesn't turn the whole thing into a comedy routine.
Posted by: Fyastarter Oct 12 2006, 08:20 AM
I read snow crash, and some of the stuff in it would have seemed ridiculous if the writer wasn't as good i didn't read it thinking 'parody'. When you read it the first time it dosen't come across completely ridiculous, and he was only the greatest matrix swordsman, in the flesh he fucks up several times with his blade.
Oh and yeah and altered carbon etc is great stuff! Market forces should be read by everyone interested in cyberpunk. The genre isn't quite as narrow as a lot of people seem to want it to be. Any and all genres are just pigeonholes to put things in, lets face it if theres one thing everyone should pick up from cyberpunk its that things are rarely neat and tidy in a box on shelf. Things are never black and white, even on a monochrome cctv monitor playing through your imagelink.
Posted by: mfb Oct 12 2006, 08:45 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Y'all are avoidin' the issue. I really wanna know 'bout them there 'elf-punk' books. |
The Last Hot Time, John M. Ford.
Posted by: Critias Oct 12 2006, 08:52 AM
Hammered and Scardown, by Elizabeth Bear, are both pretty cool. They get a little more sci-fi than cyberpunk in parts (especially the second), but I dig 'em. The third in the set might be out by now, I'm not sure.
Posted by: Slithery D Oct 12 2006, 01:18 PM
| QUOTE |
| The Last Hot Time, John M. Ford. |
Second. Also good for magical street doc types.
Posted by: Slithery D Oct 12 2006, 01:20 PM
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Hammered and Scardown, by Elizabeth Bear, are both pretty cool. They get a little more sci-fi than cyberpunk in parts (especially the second), but I dig 'em. The third in the set might be out by now, I'm not sure. |
Worldwired, published months ago and mostly sold out at bookstores I've been in. But that's what Amazon is for. Very much scifi and not cyberpunk, though.
Posted by: Critias Oct 12 2006, 01:45 PM
| QUOTE (Slithery D) | ||
Worldwired, published months ago and mostly sold out at bookstores I've been in. But that's what Amazon is for. Very much scifi and not cyberpunk, though. |
Unfortunate. The first felt like about a 2:1 cyberpunk:sci-fi ratio. The second one felt like about a 1:2 cyberpunk:sci-fi. I guess it just makes sense that the third would continue the (IMHO) decline.
Ah well. I can still dig the first one, though.
Posted by: Fire Hawk Oct 12 2006, 02:33 PM
I'm surprised noone has mentioned Blood Music, by Greg Bear.
Posted by: Critias Oct 12 2006, 04:05 PM
Oh, fine. I mention an author named Bear, and now you have to mention an author named Bear. Stop being such a copycat!
Posted by: Smed Oct 12 2006, 04:50 PM
Svaha by Charles de Lint is an intersting read. My guess is that Shaodowrun was at least partially inspired by it. Its a mix of Native American Magic and High Technlogy
Posted by: lorechaser Oct 12 2006, 07:31 PM
Transmetropolitan is a damn fine comic - I second that. Any time someone can reprogram their nanomachines to get themselves high is just funny, and things like Phone Traits are so very cyberpunk.
But I can't believe none of you mentioned Rudy Rucker in this list, and Phillip K. Dick only showed up once.
Posted by: Fortune Oct 12 2006, 07:51 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| ... and Phillip K. Dick only showed up once. |
Nobody really wants to show Dick too often.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 10:02 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| But I can't believe none of you mentioned Rudy Rucker in this list, and Phillip K. Dick only showed up once. |
A bunch of the books - especially the anthologies - have short stories by both, or partnerships.
Posted by: krayola red Oct 12 2006, 10:10 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Nobody really wants to show Dick too often. |
Mr. Happy is displeased by that statement.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 12 2006, 10:20 PM
| QUOTE (krayola red) | ||||
Mr. Happy is displeased by that statement. |
Mr. Happy needs to keep it in his pants.
Posted by: krayola red Oct 12 2006, 10:22 PM
Pants are for hippies.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 04:12 AM
| QUOTE (Fire Hawk) |
| I'm surprised noone has mentioned Blood Music, by Greg Bear. |
Now there's a novel I would never have thought was cyberpunk.
Please enlighten me as to your thoughts.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 04:13 AM
| QUOTE (krayola red) |
| Pants are for hippies. |
Solomon Grundy want pants too!
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 13 2006, 04:17 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Nobody really wants to show Dick too often. |
I need more Dick, and apparently you need more Dick too. I'd even venture to say that everyone on this board needs a great deal more Dick.
As for maturity, well, that can go stuff itself
~J
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 13 2006, 04:19 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) | ||
Now there's a novel I would never have thought was cyberpunk. [ Spoiler ] Please enlighten me as to your thoughts. |
Greg Bear is recognized amongst the original cyberpunk crowd, even though his stuff tends to be harder on the sci fi angle (or, occaisionally, the fantasy angle.) You can find the first chunk of Blood Music in The Ultimate Cyberpunk, for example. Really, Greg Bear is a good example of a noted cyberpunk author whose stories don't meet the preconceptions of cyberpunk.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 04:29 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
Greg Bear is recognized amongst the original cyberpunk crowd, even though his stuff tends to be harder on the sci fi angle (or, occaisionally, the fantasy angle.) You can find the first chunk of Blood Music in The Ultimate Cyberpunk, for example. Really, Greg Bear is a good example of a noted cyberpunk author whose stories don't meet the preconceptions of cyberpunk. |
Ok . . . what about Blood Music was cyberpunk?
In my eyes, that particular novel had 0 cyberpunk in it.
If Friday is to be excluded from cyberpunk on technicalities, then I would say this novel should be excluded on core issues.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 13 2006, 04:44 AM
You're not paying attention. Blood Music is primarily considered cyberpunk because the author was an acknowledged cyberpunk author and contemporary of other cyberpunk authors. No, Blood Music (or Petra, for another good example) did not have the 'trappings' of cyberpunk, but it was still cyberpunk because it was recognized as such at the time due to its attitude and approach. Whereas Friday, despite having several of the trappings, did not have the attitude, recognition, or relationship with the acknowledged cyberpunk writers.
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 05:27 AM
indeed. Friday had lots of elements that are common to cyberpunk, but it had no punk. the world of Friday would be a good setting for cyberpunk stories--but Friday, itself, wasn't one.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 05:28 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Blood Music is primarily considered cyberpunk because the author was an acknowledged cyberpunk author and contemporary of other cyberpunk authors. |
That's not a legitimate reason for considering a novel to be cyberpunk.
The contents of the book are the only legitimate things that may be considered when judging the genre and sub-genre of a book. What the author has, or has not done, has nothing to do with it.
It's like saying that Aristoi was cyberpunk because Walter Jon Williams is a master of writing cyberpunk. Aristoi isn't cyberpunk, and nothing I know about Blood Music would make me place it in this sub-genre.
Nothing in the approach or attitude of Blood Music was cyberpunk, in fact it appeared to me as if the approach and attitude of the book were everything but cyberpunk.
--------------------
Also, Blood Music was published quite a few years ago (1985). What other novels had Greg Bear published at that time that made him an acknowledged cyberpunk author in a time when cyberpunk was not yet a fully coined term?
Let us examine his prior novel publication history.
Psychlone (1978)? Not cyberpunk.
Hegira (1979)? Not cyberpunk.
Beyond Heaven's River (1980)? Not cyberpunk.
Lost Souls (1982) Previously published as Psychlone.
Strength of Stones (1982)? Not cyberpunk.
The Wind from a Burning Women (1983)? Anthology of shorter stories.
The Infinity Concerto (1984)? Not cyberpunk.
Corona (1984)? Star Trek novels are not cyberpunk.
Eon (1985)? Not cyberpunk.
Blood Music (1985). Also, as far as I can tell, not cyberpunk.
--------------------
So, Greg Bear as an "acknowledged cyberpunk author"? The available list appears to suggest the opposite. (It may well have come later, but not from the above works.)
I admit I know nothing about the stories in the anthology. Are those the stories where he achieved this acknowledgement?
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 05:29 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| indeed. Friday had lots of elements that are common to cyberpunk, but it had no punk. the world of Friday would be a good setting for cyberpunk stories--but Friday, itself, wasn't one. |
That's why I refer to it as quasi-cyberpunk (and sometimes forget to add the prefix).
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 05:29 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| That's not a legitimate reason for considering a novel to be cyberpunk. The contents of the book are the only legitimate things that may be considered when judging the genre and sub-genre of a book. What the author has, or has not done, has nothing to do with it. |
says who?
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 05:41 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
says who? |
Logic and common sense.
It simply cannot be considered any other way.
Calling a sub-compact a sedan because it was made by Mercedes does not make the sub-compact a sedan.
Calling a book cyberpunk when it isn't just because the author is, supposedly, an acknolwedged cyberpunk author (although as far as I can tell he had written no cyberpunk through the publication of Blood Music), is exact the same as mislabeling car types due to manufacturer history.
I point to my precisely similar analogy with Aristoi and Walter Jon Williams as additional support.
---------------
Oh, and the first novel that appears to be cyberpunk by Gred Bear looks like Queen of Angels (1990).
Does anyone have other information?
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 05:47 AM
And I will ask, specificaly, again: What is it about Blood Music that makes it cyberpunk?
As in, what about the book makes it cyberpunk (pretend the author's name has been obliterated from the book)?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 13 2006, 05:47 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| Logic and common sense. It simply cannot be considered any other way. |
That's… totally not the case. For example, I can make a bunch of dots of paint on canvas depicting the Seine (actually, I can't, not well anyway, but let's ignore that), but that doesn't make the resulting painting impressionist—I am not a part of the Impressionist movement, and that movement has been dead a long time—I cannot join that movement. No matter what, I cannot produce an impressionist work.
Though I'm not sure I would agree that Cyberpunk is totally dead as a movement, nor that it entirely started with the Gibson era, it is very arguable—and if such were to be the case, those writing outside the movement cannot, by definition, be creating cyberpunk. Nothing else makes sense, nothing else is logical.
~J
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 05:52 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| Logic and common sense. It simply cannot be considered any other way. Calling a sub-compact a sedan because it was made by Mercedes does not make the sub-compact a sedan. Calling a book cyberpunk when it isn't just because the author is, supposedly, an acknolwedged cyberpunk author (although as far as I can tell he had written no cyberpunk through the publication of Blood Music), is exact the same as mislabeling car types due to manufacturer history. |
that's malarky. i'm not arguing specifically about Blood Music, here, because i haven't read it. but the basis of your argument is simply incorrect: there are many ways to judge something as ephemeral and indistinct as 'genre'. logic and common sense can't be your only tools, because logic and common sense don't apply the same way to works of the imagination as they do in other areas. there's a lot that can be gleamed by knowing who the author of a given work is, not the least of which is what that author might be trying to say with it--what questions he might be trying to raise, what truths he might be trying to impart, etcetera. for instance, if you pick up a book by Bruce Sterling, you know in advance that it's probably going to raise some points about what exactly it means to be a human--where humanity ends and something else begins, what those "something else"s might be, etcetera.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 06:17 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
That's… totally not the case. For example, I can make a bunch of dots of paint on canvas depicting the Seine (actually, I can't, not well anyway, but let's ignore that), but that doesn't make the resulting painting impressionist—I am not a part of the Impressionist movement, and that movement has been dead a long time—I cannot join that movement. No matter what, I cannot produce an impressionist work. |
You are not constructing a parallel case.
You have stated that if you did a doodle on canvas that it wouldn't be impressionist art.
I agree.
Even if a master impressionist did a doodle on canvas it wouldn't be impressionist art.
I assert the above.
But, according to the current case for Blood Music, it is cyberpunk just because the author (who, apparently, had done no cyberpunk yet* (still waiting for someone to come up with information showing he was)) was an acknowledged cyberpunk author.
This is a case of a *non-impressionist artist doing a masterwork (to some, anyway) in non-impressionist art and having it be called impressionist art.
This is why your case is not parallel.
-----------------------------------
In any event, where and when did Greg Bear pick up this "acknowledgement"?
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 06:24 AM
i don't think Kagetenshi was specifically talking about Blood Music. i certainly wasn't. i was talking about--and i believe Kagetenshi was talking about--the reasoning you're using to arrive at the conclusion that Blood Music isn't cyberpunk, which is faulty. therefore, the cases don't need to be parallel, because i'm not (or maybe we're not) disputing the specific case of Blood Music.
as for Blood Magic specifically, i'd like to point out that Greg Bear's work since that novel has certainly delved into cyberpunk. again, whether or not Blood Music is or isn't cyberpunk, i can't say--but i can say that, based on the whole of Bear's work, i don't have a hard time believing it could be.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 06:26 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
but the basis of your argument is simply incorrect: there are many ways to judge something as ephemeral and indistinct as 'genre'. |
Not really. Genre and sub-genre are fairly well understood terms.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
logic and common sense can't be your only tools, |
But they're the primary ones that matter.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
because logic and common sense don't apply the same way to works of the imagination as they do in other areas. |
We're talking about connoisseurship at this point. That is a factor in genre determination.
No one has yet presented any evidence that Blood Music has any cyberpunk sub-genre elements.
The author was not a cyberpunk author when Blood Music was published as far as I can tell, and possibly may not have been one until years later.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
there's a lot that can be gleamed by knowing who the author of a given work is, not the least of which is what that author might be trying to say with it--what questions he might be trying to raise, what truths he might be trying to impart, etcetera. |
All absolutely true.
And all having absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand (i.e. the classification of the sub-genre of Blood Music).
| QUOTE (mfb) |
logic and common sense can't be your only tools, |
I can't agree entirely with that. While they may not be the only tools in existence, they are very, very good ones and not to be dismissed out of hand.
If you want to say that labeling books under various genres and sub-genres by the author's overall genre publication history is okay, then I don't really have a response to that. I can only say that I believe if you ran a bookstore, a lot of people would be complaining.
If you want to say that your reasoning for a book to be placed under a certain genre or sub-genre is better than mine, I could accept your statements (even though I might disgree with them). This is because it is connoisseurship that effectively decides this.
I say that genre and sub-genre aren defined by the content of a book.
You don't find any shelving system for cyberpunk itself (being a sub-genre), but if you did, having Aristoi appear in that section because it's author was an acknowledged master of cyberpunk (and he most certainly is) would be a definite shelving error.
EDIT----------------
Corrected a few typos.
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 06:30 AM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| Not really. Genre and sub-genre are fairly well understood terms. |
...you're joking, right? you may have fairly clear ideas about how to define genres and sub-genres, but that hardly means that your particular definitions are shared by the majority, or even a minority. want to start a bloodbath? get ten people together and ask them whether they think Star Wars is sci-fi or fantasy.
i agree that authorship history (both prior to and following the work in question) is not the only way to determine genre or sub-genre. but you're claiming that the identity of the author has nothing to do with defining genre and sub-genre, which is ridiculous. the labels one applies to a thing has a lot to do with how people perceive that thing. for instance, if http://www.imaginistix.com/details.cfm?Id=50 were called "The Monster who Eats Girls", you wouldn't think that the monster in question is held in thrall by the girl's flower. but because it's titled "The Sorceress' Flower", we see that the girl has control of the monster by virtue of the flower she's holding. authors, and specifically the types of writing a given author often engages in, are labels that can help define fiction.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 06:41 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
...you're joking, right? |
You know, that is exactly the phrase I deleted out of my response that I had inititally typed for your quote:
"[...] logic and common sense can't be your only tools, because logic and common sense don't apply [...]"
--------------------------
In any event, you've now switched arguments.
What belongs in what genre or sub-genre may be argued until the cows come home, but that doesn't mean the terms aren't well understood.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 06:53 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
but you're claiming that the identity of the author has nothing to do with defining genre and sub-genre, which is ridiculous. |
But I am not claiming that at all.
You've switched terminolgy ("identity" vs. "contents of prior publications").
I'm claiming that the contents of prior publications of the author has nothing to do with the genre or sub-genre designation of a newly published book from that author.
When David Drake published his first Fantasy, should it have been dropped into the Military SF sub-genre?
That is what you are arguing for from where I am standing.
(And David Drake was most certainly an acknowledged master of Military SF, starting with Hammer's Slammers.)
| QUOTE (mfb) |
the labels one applies to a thing has a lot to do with how people perceive that thing. [...] authors, and specifically the types of writing a given author often engages in, are labels that can help define fiction. |
The labels you are now discussing aren't genre and sub-genre. The viewer impressions of the artwork in question based on the hypothetical title and the real title of the artwork change the ideas of what is happening in the artwork, not the genre or sub-genre the artwork belongs to.
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 07:04 AM
the argument hasn't changed at all. we're discussing what methods should be used to classify fiction into different genres and sub-genres. the definition of what defines a given genre or sub-genre can't be disassociated from that argument, because the body of work that is classified into a given genre is what defines that genre.
i'm not dismissing logic and common sense, as you seem to think. you misquoted me: what i said was that logic and common sense don't apply the same way to fiction as they do to other matters. this is because fiction--and art in general--is necessarily linked to how the viewer percieves the material. it's subjective; different viewers think different things about the same piece of work. an author strives to create a specific set of perceptions within his readers, and one good way of shaping those perceptions is by shaping their expectations.
and if that doesn't convince you, how about this: it's common sense, and quite logical, to assume that if the last five books you read by an author were cyberpunk novels, then the next one you pick up will also be cyberpunk. this assumption might be incorrect, but that doesn't make it illogical.
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 07:05 AM
actually, since David Drake's first story was (i believe) a horror story, perhaps Hammer's Slammers should be re-classified! certainly, he published a work of fantasy (The Dragon Lord) before his first work of science fiction (Time Safari). sorry, you picked a guy i've been reading for over a decade, had to show off.
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| I'm claiming that the contents of prior publications of the author has nothing to do with the genre or sub-genre designation of a newly published book from that author. |
but it very much does. it's certainly not the only factor to consider, and you'd make some bad choices if you used it as your only criteria for classification. but it is a factor that should be considered. and i'm very much discussing genre and sub-genre--specifically, cyberpunk. one of the things that sets cyberpunk apart from other sub-genres of science fiction is that its authors declared, in many cases, that they were cyberpunk authors. they were revolting against the dead weight of 'normal' science fiction, and that sense of revolution and the anti-establishment is part and parcel of the cyberpunk sub-genre.
to answer your question, no, the Lord of the Isles shouldn't go on the sci-fi shelf. but that doesn't mean it's illogical to consider David Drake's long history as a military sci-fi writer before placing Lord of the Isles in the fantasy section, where it belongs.
Posted by: krayola red Oct 13 2006, 08:22 AM
mfb: I'm definitely with you in that an author's reputation has a significant impact on how a reader perceives a given work of fiction, but shouldn't the perception itself, rather than the various factors that influence that perception, be the determining criteria for genre? I mean, there are a huge amount of different variables that could sway a guy towards seeing a book one way versus seeing it another way, and authorship is only one of them. In the end, it's what he sees in it that really matters. That means that if he's challenged to explain his labeling, he should be able to provide the interpretation that drew him towards that labeling, which would be partially influenced by authorship - however, just flat out saying something belongs in a certain genre just because so and so wrote it doesn't really cut it.
Am I making any sense here? It's late, I'm tired, and I've got zombies after my ass (long story), so I wouldn't be surprised if I end up making no sense whatsoever.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 13 2006, 12:40 PM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel @ Oct 13 2006, 01:17 AM) |
| You have stated that if you did a doodle on canvas that it wouldn't be impressionist art. |
No, I'm not. I'm hypothesizing a parallel universe where I'm somehow capable of producing a painting similar in quality and construction to, say, the level of quality of Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, done in impeccable impressionist style, it would still not be impressionist, because I am not and cannot be an impressionist.
As for Greg Bear, one opinion can be found in the article I linked to in the beginning of this discussion.
| QUOTE |
| Genre and sub-genre are fairly well understood terms. |
As far as it goes, yes. Well understood, though, not (absolutely not) well-defined.
| QUOTE |
| No one has yet presented any evidence that Blood Music has any cyberpunk sub-genre elements. |
Mostly because, as far as I can tell, most of us haven't read it. Swanwick certainly thought it was cyberpunk, for what that's worth.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| get ten people together and ask them whether they think Star Wars is sci-fi or fantasy. |
That's no bloodbath. Ok, there might be some burnings at the stake if anyone actually argues that Star Wars is sci-fi, but the classification is obvious.
~J
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 13 2006, 01:11 PM
I'm not wading through all this for a point-for-point rebuttal, so let me just hit the highlights:
Greg Bear has had short stories (Petra and an excerpt from Blood Music) in both Mirrorshades, the definative cyberpunk anthology of yesteryear, and the more recent The Ultimate Cyberpunk. While we commonly associate cyberpunk with certain elements, this does not mean that every cyberpunk story has all of those elements.
Even cyberpunk authors have differing views of what is cyberpunk, and some of those definitions are pretty broad.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 02:44 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the argument hasn't changed at all. |
The argument did not change in general.
You just switched using one sub-argument to using a different one.
At first you at appeared to be talking about the defintion of genre itself:
| QUOTE (mfb) |
there are many ways to judge something as ephemeral and indistinct as 'genre'. |
When I tried to assert that the meaning of the term was well known, you then appeared to be talking about what fell into what genre (a quite different thing):
| QUOTE (mfb) |
you may have fairly clear ideas about how to define genres and sub-genres, but that hardly means that your particular definitions are shared by the majority, or even a minority. want to start a bloodbath? get ten people together and ask them whether they think Star Wars is sci-fi or fantasy. |
| QUOTE (mfb) |
i'm not dismissing logic and common sense, as you seem to think. you misquoted me: what i said was that logic and common sense don't apply the same way to fiction as they do to other matters. |
You are not recognizing that I have already conceded your point.
Your point is that connoisseurship defines what falls into what genre or sub-genre.
I never said otherwise.
However, as I will point out below, I assert that it is connoisseurship of the contents of the book, and not connoisseurship of the author that determines genre or sub-genre.
----------------------------------------
If the assertion you are supporting is true, that what book falls into what genre or sub-genre is decided upon based upon factors other than the contents of the book (i.e. connoisseurship about the book), would cause the entire publication and book selling industry to go into convulsions.
It is, essentially, saying that there is a connoisseurship about the author. I'll agree that this is true, as many people prefer one car or alcohol manufacturer over another. But if Jack Daniels made wine, no one would call it beer, especially when Jack Daniels has never made either.*
(* No, I am not saying that Jack Daniels has never made wine or beer, I'm just using that as an example in general, related to this dicussion based on the fact that I personally have never heard of them doing so.)
That is why I assert that the above is false (i.e. "connoisseurship" of the author determines the genre or sub-genre of a book) in general for the actual publication industry. (People's individual opinions are another matter entirely.)
This is largely not the way the actual genre classification system in actual use in the publication industry works.
It's generally known that books are miscategorized from time to time. I've discussed with various authors the problems of switching from writing SF to Fantasy, or say from Horror to SF. There is always a risk of this because a publisher may print whatever it wants on the book (sending readers for a loop if they should buy the book). In the second case, large chain bookstores may miscategorized an SF book from a known Horror author and shelve it with Horror, again throwing readers for a loop if they should see this.
These things generally cause books to severely undersell. It is a fear any author has if they publish a book out of their known genre history of prior publication.
However, if Author X writes SF book 4 (Blood Music), and someone else thinks that book 4 is, in fact, cyberpunk, they are free to think so, and they would not be wrong, exactly. In the way that no one is specifically wrong about their opinion of art.
However, those with this opinion should be prepared to state whey they think that book 4 is cyberpunk when it appears to contain no cyberpunkish elements at all.
In this dicussion so far, no one has actually done so other than to point to contents of books labeled "cyberpunk" or the opinions of others.
How about resting opinion upon the actual contents of the book? (Oh, wait, that's effectively what is under challenge here, sorry.)
| QUOTE (mfb) |
it's common sense, and quite logical, to assume that if the last five books you read by an author were cyberpunk novels, then the next one you pick up will also be cyberpunk. this assumption might be incorrect, but that doesn't make it illogical. |
That depends. Do we know that it is possible that authors may write a new novel in any genre they choose? Yes, we do know this.
Therefore, making the automatic assumption that any author's next new novel will be in the same genre as the previous novel is an assumption with a certain probability of error.
And yet that (the above assertion) has nothing to do with calling a sub-compact a sedan because it was made by a sedan-making car company (that might, in fact, have never made a sedan up to that point in time).
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 02:48 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
Greg Bear has had short stories (Petra and an excerpt from Blood Music) in both Mirrorshades, the definative cyberpunk anthology of yesteryear, and the more recent The Ultimate Cyberpunk. While we commonly associate cyberpunk with certain elements, this does not mean that every cyberpunk story has all of those elements. |
I'm going to have to go out and read Petra, somehow. I'll see if I can hit Sam Weller's later today (ouch, probably not). <crosses his fingers that they have one of the anthologies that contain it />
Be aware that Blood Music was originally a novelette, and was developed into a novel. In anthologies, it is usually the novelette that appears.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
Even cyberpunk authors have differing views of what is cyberpunk, and some of those definitions are pretty broad. |
And I would be happy to discuss, and if necessary concede the point of, Blood Music being cyberpunk. (The book itself. I can't specifically discuss the novelette as I have never read it.)
I have stated a series of fundamental reasons why I think it is not.
I will point out that the Blood Music novelette appears in nanotech related anthologies, Nanotech and Nanodreams, which is its own particular sub-genre.
(I am also not saying that what appears in the nanotech sub-genre cannot be cyberpunk, I'm just laying out another fact/element that I feel points away from Blood Music being cyberpunk. That is, if we are to accept at all that what label that appears printed on a publication is to be considered in determining its genre/sub-genre in a world where we all know that mistakes of both categorization and inclusion can occur. Also, it is quite possible that an anthology editor will reach for something that will sell the anthology, even if it might not strictly fit into the concept of the anthology. That happens all the time.)
-------------------------------
Further uptopic it was stated that Friday had no punk and therefore was not really cyberpunk. I admitted this was correct (for the most part). However, Blood Music (the novel) also has no punk (or at least none that I found).
Posted by: Fire Hawk Oct 13 2006, 03:02 PM
Blood Music involves a corporate scientist developing a nanite blood serum (for whatever purpose) that inevitably becomes an entity all on it's own, yes? And then the poor bastard goes and injects himself with it to keep it safe (IIRC - I've got a hardcover copy sitting on my shelf that I still need to read). While the entirety of the book may (or may not) be Cyberpunk per se, there are definitely enough elements right there that would fit very well within the setting.
But RainofSteel just had to go and make a strawman argument out of it.
Posted by: Ancient History Oct 13 2006, 03:30 PM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel @ Oct 13 2006, 02:48 PM) |
| Also, it is quite possible that an anthology editor will reach for something that will sell the anthology, even if it might not strictly fit into the concept of the anthology. That happens all the time.) |
I'd go with you on this one except that the editors were Bruce Sterling and Pat Cadigan, respectively.
[/edit]While a bit basic, http://www.sfsite.com/12a/uc141.htm covers some basic ground which might prove helpful.
Posted by: RainOfSteel Oct 13 2006, 03:50 PM
| QUOTE (Fire Hawk) |
And then the poor bastard goes and injects himself with it to keep it safe. |
Not quite. He did that so he could keep his project alive, he had no idea it was an intelligent organism when he did that.
In fact, it wasn't intelligent when he did that. It rapidly evolved, somehow, from exposure to strontium bromide (IIRC).
| QUOTE (Fire Hawk) |
While the entirety of the book may (or may not) be Cyberpunk per se, there are definitely enough elements right there that would fit very well within the setting. |
And what would those elements have been?
The existence of genetically engineered and randomly mutated organisms? (They really weren't nanotech, even if they had the overall appearance of it.)
The existance of a corporate scientist trying to save his project and his career?
That's it?
| QUOTE (Fire Hawk) |
But RainofSteel just had to go and make a strawman argument out of it. |
Not at all. That would be what was done to me.
http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Strawman
Posted by: nezumi Oct 13 2006, 04:30 PM
Perhaps it's time to crack ye olde dictionary.
Cyberpunk:
science fiction featuring extensive human interaction with supercomputers and a punk ambiance. - Random House unabridged dictionary
Fast-paced science fiction involving futuristic computer-based societies.
- Heritage unabridged dictionary
a writer of science fiction set in a lawless subculture of an oppressive society dominated by computer technology 3: a genre of fast-paced science fiction involving oppressive futuristic compterized societies
-Princeton University
/si:'ber-puhnk/ (Originally coined by SF writer Bruce Bethke
and/or editor Gardner Dozois) A subgenre of SF launched in
1982 by William Gibson's epoch-making novel "Neuromancer"
(though its roots go back through Vernor Vinge's "True Names"
to John Brunner's 1975 novel "The Shockwave Rider"). Gibson's
near-total ignorance of computers and the present-day hacker
culture enabled him to speculate about the role of computers
and hackers in the future in ways hackers have since found
both irritatingly na"ive and tremendously stimulating.
Gibson's work was widely imitated, in particular by the
short-lived but innovative "Max Headroom" TV series. See
cyberspace, ice, jack in, go flatline.
Since 1990 or so, popular culture has included a movement or
fashion trend that calls itself "cyberpunk", associated
especially with the rave/techno subculture. Hackers have
mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, self-described
cyberpunks too often seem to be shallow trendoids in black
leather who have substituted enthusiastic blathering about
technology for actually learning and *doing* it. Attitude is
no substitute for competence. On the other hand, at least
cyberpunks are excited about the right things and properly
respectful of hacking talent in those who have it. The
general consensus is to tolerate them politely in hopes that
they'll attract people who grow into being true hackers.
-On-line dictionary of computing
Only one of these definitions specifies a date for the period of cyberpunk. None specify an end date for the cyberpunk period. All specify cyberpunk includes human interactions with computers and a punk ambiance. Hence, Snow Crash would be cyberpunk (it came after 1980, includes human interactions with supercomputers and a punk ambience), Blood Rain likely wouldn't be because it lacks both of those, or at least the punk ambience.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 13 2006, 05:03 PM
I reject the attempt to use the dictionary to arrive at a meaningful definition of cyberpunk.
~J
Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2006, 05:12 PM
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| At first you at appeared to be talking about the defintion of genre itself... When I tried to assert that the meaning of the term was well known, you then appeared to be talking about what fell into what genre (a quite different thing)... |
miscommunication and misunderstanding on both our parts.
| QUOTE (RainOfSteel) |
| You are not recognizing that I have already conceded your point. Your point is that connoisseurship defines what falls into what genre or sub-genre. I never said otherwise. However, as I will point out below, I assert that it is connoisseurship of the contents of the book, and not connoisseurship of the author that determines genre or sub-genre. |
how can you seperate the author from the work? who wrote a given piece of fiction is often an important piece of information, if you expect to get more out of the work than the basic events it describes. granted, differing between Lord of the Isles and Paying the Piper doesn't exactly require close study. but how about differing between Paying the Piper and, say, The Sharp End? The Sharp End is classified as military sci-fi because it's written by David Drake and it involves Hammer's Slammers. but it's based on Red Harvest, by Dashiell Hammett; the action it contains is only peripherally military. it lies really close to the line between military sci-fi and standard sci-fi--but which side does it fall on? well... it was written by David Drake. so anyplace that has a seperate military sci-fi section is going to put The Sharp End there, right next to all the other David Drake military sci-fi books.
Posted by: Critias Oct 13 2006, 05:14 PM
Mommy, Daddy, stop fighting! Stop fighting!
Posted by: Dog Oct 14 2006, 03:25 PM
We could have a whole 'nuther discussion trying to pin down what "punk ambience" is, or just agree that it (and cyberpunk) are subjective terms.
I like Connie Willis, sometimes.
Posted by: Protagonist Oct 16 2006, 03:52 AM
There's already been quite a bit here recommended to read, so I'll recommend what not to read.
Nylon Angel by Marianne de Pierres is total shit for cyberpunk (not to mention just total shit for all of writing to begin with; how this crap got published to begin with and actually managed to get a sequel is beyond me).
There are only two books that I have ever stopped reading in the middle of do to how atrocious they were (I've read hundreds and hundreds of books), and this was one of them. The pacing and lack of solid construction of it gave me a headache. It's like if you had a down syndrome child who was a professional auctioneer fast-talking at you about nothing as fast as they possibly can for hours on end.
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM
Some other suggestions, there's several novels recently released by the same writer for the Ghost in the Shell tv series. Two novels out so far, with one more on the way. They're called, 'The Lost Memory' and 'Revenge of the Cold Machines'. Both are written by Junichi Fujisaku, one of the show's writer if I recall correctly. There's also another novel that sets place between the two movies called, 'After the Long Goodbye' written by Masaki Yamada, another writer. This one focuses on Batou and his feelings of loss now that the Major is gone and also his feelings/thoughts if he is even human anymore.
Posted by: Fyastarter Oct 16 2006, 03:29 PM
I don't think the plessis books are that bad, certainly not the best books out there, pulpy? IMO readable so he should take a look if he is starved for cyberpunk as he is i would say they fit the cyberpunk tag way better than a lot of the books on the list, quality is an issue but some of the shadowrun books wern't exactly worthy of award nominations, hell the plessis books even have actual magic in, reminds me of the shadowrun universe in a few other ways. Once i got passed the writing i enjoyed the story a bit like a b movie i guess.
/duck & cover
Posted by: PBTHHHHT Oct 16 2006, 03:48 PM
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Mommy, Daddy, stop fighting! Stop fighting! |
So which of the two wears the pants?
Posted by: krayola red Oct 17 2006, 02:57 AM
Couples who wear pants together stay together.
Posted by: eidolon Oct 17 2006, 03:20 AM
I also wasn't a huge fan of Snow Crash. Just...too silly for me.
And while I love early Gibson, and think it was plenty coherent enough, I've recently read Idoru and Pattern Recognition, and I think I could have shat less heavy-handed, deus ex machina reliant, over wrought "look mommy I'm an important author" crap without trying too hard.
Lots of good suggestions here though, I'll have to remember to come back and copy them into a notepad file.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 17 2006, 03:41 AM
I liked Idoru, though I read it when I was much younger and less critical, but I've stayed away from Pattern Recognition. I have yet to see good things happen when a cyberpunk author starts writing about the present (or, even worse, the past).
~J
Posted by: Protagonist Oct 17 2006, 04:14 AM
I enjoyed Pattern Recognition quite a bit, even though it basically just rehashes part of the plot from Count Zero.
Posted by: mfb Oct 17 2006, 04:28 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I have yet to see good things happen when a cyberpunk author starts writing about the present (or, even worse, the past). |
you didn't like the Baroque Cycle? heathen.
Pattern Recognition had a lot of unintended sillyocity to it, and Gibson still hasn't learned how to write about technology without just randomly stringing together a lot of buzzwords. still, it was a decent read, and if Gibson's grasp of tech isn't as tight as, say, Sterling's, he's at least greatly improved. it also had one of the best 'just desserts' scenes in recent memory.
Posted by: eidolon Oct 17 2006, 02:01 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I have yet to see good things happen when a cyberpunk author starts writing about the present |
Precisely. The first thought I remember having when I started reading it was "wait...this isn't remotely cyberpunk".
And while for the sake of finding out that it really is a shitty book I'd suggest re-reading Idoru, I can't suggest in good conscience that someone read a shitty book, even if they've read it before. Or something.
I'm so far avoiding All Tomorrow's Parties in the assumption that it's as bad as the other two.
Posted by: nezumi Oct 17 2006, 02:43 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I liked Idoru, though I read it when I was much younger and less critical, but I've stayed away from Pattern Recognition. I have yet to see good things happen when a cyberpunk author starts writing about the present (or, even worse, the past). ~J |
You didn't like the Difference Engine? If you can swallow Gibson's terrible writing style, it's a pretty darn good book.
Posted by: eidolon Oct 17 2006, 03:54 PM
Good point. I loved the Difference Engine. Of course, a lot of that comes from him having help from Sterling I bet. In fact, maybe that's a good reason to go read some Sterling.
Posted by: ES_Sparky Jan 19 2007, 08:45 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I have yet to see good things happen when a cyberpunk author starts writing about the present (or, even worse, the past). |
Wow... an author can't write outside his genre? Really?
I'm new to the genre myself, but I dug Snow Crash and I'm quite enjoying Cryptonomicon, thank-you-very-much. I think anyone who thinks that Shadowrun doesn't have a heavy dose of parody and silliness in it needs to step back a bit.
Turn to Goo? And that was SR1, eh?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 09:39 PM
| QUOTE (ES_Sparky) |
| Wow... an author can't write outside his genre? Really? |
If that author normally writes cyberpunk and decides to write historical fiction, evidence points to no.
~J
Posted by: ES_Sparky Jan 19 2007, 09:41 PM
That is SO subjective.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2007, 09:47 PM
Not at all. It's objective fact.
~J, bathing in the harsh light of reality
Posted by: Backgammon Jan 20 2007, 12:58 AM
To actually add to the orginal topic of the thread:
I saw it mentionned once in this thread, and I don't remember having seen it in the other threads, but George Alec Effinger's trilogy, http://www.amazon.com/When-Gravity-Fails-George-Effinger/dp/0765313588/sr=8-1/qid=1169254412/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6931351-8590246?ie=UTF8&s=books, http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Sun-George-Alec-Effinger/dp/0765313596/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/103-6931351-8590246 and http://www.amazon.com/Exile-Kiss-George-Alec-Effinger/dp/076531360X/ref=pd_sim_b_2/103-6931351-8590246 are some good, pure, cyberpunk novels.
Posted by: mfb Jan 20 2007, 10:12 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 19 2007, 04:39 PM) | ||
If that author normally writes cyberpunk and decides to write historical fiction, evidence points to no. ~J |
i'm curious, what didn't you like about Cryptonomicon and/or the Baroque Cycle? also, a point: you can't really call Stephenson a cyberpunk author, if you're judging soleley on the amount of material he's written that's classic cyberpunk. this, despite the fact that he coined the generally-accepted term for the post-cyberpunk era.
Posted by: SL James Jan 20 2007, 07:26 PM
If it weren't for all the digressions, Cryptonomicon might have made a nice 100-page novella.
Posted by: zephir Jan 24 2007, 03:44 PM
I endorse http://www.amazon.com/Altered-Carbon-Richard-Morgan/dp/0345457684/sr=8-1/qid=1169652982/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7748442-2616047?ie=UTF8&s=books.
I think Backgammon was the one who first mentioned it to me. Thanks!
Posted by: Warmaster Lah Jan 25 2007, 03:46 PM
Has anyone read "The Traveler"? By John Twelve Hawks.
This one really suprised me by its quality story.
It's not cyberpunk. It's more about Information Dystopia, like SR4. Set in the 2000-2010 era. Had a very Shadowrun feel to it.
These people called Harlequins are a secret pact of warriors that "live off the grid" and a sworn to protect the "Travellers." Travellers are special Humans that are gifted with the ability to project out of their bodies into other planes of existance. The travelers usually end up being large forces for change in society, (references are made to people like Jesus, MLK, Saints, etc. probably being travelers.)
Another organization is the illuminati like group that is a shadowy force behind the governments in the world. They want to create a perfectly controlled population through a concept called the panopticon. A type of prison. "The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a "sentiment of an invisible omniscience." - wiki. You know surveillance cameras, centralized databases, RFID-like tags for each citizen. They of course hunt the travellers because they see them as agents of mass chance and chaos.
Really enjoyed the book.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 25 2007, 04:18 PM
(Just FYI: mfb, I'm not ignoring your question, but I don't have my copy of Cryptonomicon on-hand and I want to have it when I respond to make sure my memory is accurate. I'll have access to it in a few weeks.)
~J
Posted by: BishopMcQ Jan 25 2007, 04:22 PM
Most of my reading list has already been posted, a new addition would be Chris Moriarty, Spin State and Spin Control.
You might also try Synne Mitchell's Technogenesis, The Changeling Plague, and The Deathless Series. More Sci-fi than cyberpunk but full of ideas.
Posted by: mfb Jan 25 2007, 05:39 PM
| QUOTE (SL James @ Jan 20 2007, 02:26 PM) |
| If it weren't for all the digressions, Cryptonomicon might have made a nice 100-page novella. |
true. but i tend to view the digressions as being the meat of the book; the actual story is just there as a framework. plus, well, it and the Baroque Cycle form a continuity, and i'm compulsive about continuities.
i really liked Technogenesis, more for the tech than the story. the idea of using psychology to hack brains is really neat.
Posted by: Backgammon Jan 26 2007, 12:25 AM
| QUOTE (Warmaster Lah) |
| Another organization is the illuminati like group that is a shadowy force behind the governments in the world. They want to create a perfectly controlled population through a concept called the panopticon. A type of prison. "The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a "sentiment of an invisible omniscience." - wiki. You know surveillance cameras, centralized databases, RFID-like tags for each citizen. They of course hunt the travellers because they see them as agents of mass chance and chaos. |
The omniscient guardian idea was first coined by Bentham. Why do I mention this? A) Because I happen to know this philosophical piece of information and couldn't resist posting it and B) if you liked the concept in the book, you might enjoy reading what Bentham's idea on the subject were.
Mostly A though.
Posted by: TEKE Jan 26 2007, 03:06 AM
Ok I have some great titles for you. Not all of these are cyberpunk, but they encapsulate some great aspects of the shadowrun world.
Transmetropolitan: an amazing comic book with major AR portrayal.
The Traveler: by John Twelve Hawks: this book is amazing and thought provoking and shows you just how right you are to be paranoid about being watched.
This last suggestion comes with a warning. I recommend any of the novels by Andrew Vacchs concerning his character burke (which is most of them). These novels are so amazing and dark and disturbing. Burke is the current day shadowrunner. A career criminal who does bad things for a living, but along the way does BAD BAD things to the worlds worst people. These books have some very disturbing content concerning crimes against children. Vacchs has worked his whole life protecting kids and he wrote these books as a way to open peoples eyes to the horrors of what goes on in our society. These are some of the best stories I have ever read.
If anyone has read these let me know what you think.
>>>sorry, got so excited that I didn't realize others had already recommended Transmetroolitan and The Traveler
Posted by: SL James Jan 26 2007, 05:05 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
true. but i tend to view the digressions as being the meat of the book; the actual story is just there as a framework. |
I wouldn't call it meat so much as a bunch of sides you eat while the entree (the supposed story it ostensibly tells) gets cold.
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