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Posted by: Sphynx Oct 24 2003, 08:49 AM

It's been awhile since a request for House Rules has gone out. Anyone have links, or feel like posting, their House Rules?

Ours are located at: http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/HouseRules.htm if you're interested in looking. There is also included there, a link to our House Rule for the BuildPoint System that alot of people had interest in some time ago.

Sphynx

Posted by: mfb Oct 24 2003, 09:37 AM

for hard cover, i give +1 armor for every +2 TN. it's simpler than determining whether the shot would have hit without the cover, then determining the barrier rating of the cover and figuring out whether the attack would have penetrated.

Posted by: Stonecougar Oct 24 2003, 10:10 AM

We have a very simple house rule:

If it's good for the drama, go with it.

Half the time, we don't know the given rule for any given situation. We make up what sounds fairest and has the most dramatic flair. I've always envisioned SR as being an action-movie-buff's best game. Watch Blade Runner, Ronin, or any of a score of other SR movies and tell me I'm wrong.

We play the games to have fun, and nothing kills fun more than, at the very moment of highest drama, having an inconvenient rule bring everything crashing down. Rules are guidelines. Rules are meant to be tweaked, bent, and yes, even broken.

Posted by: Dr Vital Oct 24 2003, 05:49 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 24 2003, 05:58 PM

Posted by: Dr Vital Oct 24 2003, 06:06 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 24 2003, 07:00 PM

The other sensing powers are much cheaper because they're mainly modifications and enhancement of other senses. Their only real game effect is to cancel out penalties to rolls. Astral perception gives you a whole new sense as well as:

• The ability to detect magical potential in other people.
• The ability to assense people.
• The ability to set up wards.
• The ability to fight unmaterialized spirits.

Posted by: Mongoose Oct 24 2003, 07:14 PM

Not to mention the ability to get you ass killed by unseen threats that move 3-4 times the speed of your meat body....

That's gotta be worth a lot.

Posted by: Dr Vital Oct 24 2003, 07:25 PM

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 24 2003, 07:25 PM

I really like the 'magic build points' system; I've been working on house rules to encorporate it into BeCKS.

In the meantime, here's an alternate Skill Defaulting system I've been advocating for awhile:

SKILL DEFAULTING (pp.84-85, SR3)
Skill defaulting is replaced with the following rule: Each skill gains a ‘base’ number of dice equal to its Link Attribute ¸ 3 (round .33 down; round .66 up). This is the minimum number of dice that may be rolled in a Skill test for that skill, but do not count as actual Skill Levels – thus, they cannot allow Combat Pool to be spent, and do not count against the Karma expense of new Skill Levels. Until a character raises his Skill Level beyond this minimum threshold, the only bonus gained by having the skill is the ability to spend Combat Pool dice to augment the roll. For example, if the character has a Quickness of 6, and a Pistols of 1, he may roll 2 skill dice for all Pistols tests – but may only augment his skill with a single Combat Pool die. If he later raises his Pistols skill to 2, he still rolls 2 dice, but may augment his roll with up to two Combat Pool dice per roll. Skill defaulting is possible regardless of the target number.
Likewise, when defaulting from skill to skill, use half the Skill Rating of the new skill (round down). This does count as actual Skill dice, after a fashion – while it does not affect Karma costs, it does allow the player to allocate Combat Pool dice up to its rating. If the character possesses the Skill being rolled, but wishes to use a higher-rated linked Skill, take the average of the two Skills (round down). If the computed number is still below the minimum (the default Attribute ¸ 3), then the minimum number of dice rolled is computed from the default Attribute, as above. Specializations of the actual Skill being rolled may be used in lieu of the generic Skill, but Specializations of the Skill being defaulted to may not be used – only base Skills are generic enough to lend cross-disciplinary expertise.

Suzie Samurai, with Quickness 7, Submachine Guns(5) / Uzi(, and Pistols(1) / Hold-Out(3), gets a total of 3 dice to roll when firing her Ares Predator Heavy Pistol: her Pistols skill(1) + her Submachine Guns skill(5), divided by 2. When firing her Fuchi Ladyfinger hold-out, she gets four dice: her Pistols/Hold-Out(3) + her Submachine Guns(5), divided by 2. She can not use her Submachine Guns/Uzi( skill to allow her to roll 5 dice to fire her Ladyfinger; her understanding of the Uzi simply doesn’t translate well.
If she didn’t have the Uzi skill, she could still roll 2 dice for Pistols, since her Quickness(7) ¸ 3 gives her a 2-dice minimum for skills that default to Quickness. However, she could only allocate a maximum of one Combat Pool die, since her actual skill is only 1. She would roll 3 dice (plus up to 3 Combat Pool dice, if desired) in Pistols/Hold-Out; since it’s above her Attribute Default threshold, the threshold does not apply.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 24 2003, 07:51 PM

Posted by: Bearclaw Oct 24 2003, 08:00 PM

House rule:

A contact from a distant place I give for half price.
If you want a fixer in Lav Vegas and a Bartender in Denver, you get them for 2500 each.
There's exceptions of course. Deckers and such don't lose their usefullness by being distant, and runners and other guys who can and will travel for biz don't get it either. An armorer in NYC is half price. A steet sam in Boston is 5000.

Posted by: Jpwoo Oct 24 2003, 08:01 PM

I have to say that the cost of .5 for astral perception is low. a cost of 1 I could maybe understand in a magic heavy game. I am curious if there are any adepts that don't take astral perception in your game.

Also why did you cut mnemonic enhancers? Not that I disagree I just want to hear your reasoning. I cut monowhips in my world just because I find them distasteful.

Back to the main thread.

I am sure I play lots of house rules I am sure, the most obvious ones come in character creation.

All players get a free armor jacket, tailored how they want it. All guns that players buy in creation come with two free clips. And all players get a zippo lighter. However you cannot buy a zippo in the game world. so you have to take good care of it.

Limit of two pieces of bioware at character creation, or alternately if you have a bioware themed character limit of two pieces of cyber. Anyone taking tech at priority A has to have a damn good background.

Since we don't play lots lowered the cost of skill buying to double current rather than double new. I suppose this could have been balanced by just giving more karma but it has been a rule long enough that it seems right.

Scraped negotiation and interrogation as skills, and handle them with rp. Left in teaching and leadership.

Posted by: Dr Vital Oct 24 2003, 08:09 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 24 2003, 08:45 PM

Posted by: Dr Vital Oct 24 2003, 09:10 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 24 2003, 09:25 PM

Posted by: Bira Oct 24 2003, 09:25 PM

Astral Perception also allows an adept to engage in astral combat with spirits and such, which is great for characters that don't expect the mage to be there all the time.

I don't think it's too expensive, personally. Sure, other magicians get astral perception for free, but the whole point of having adepts is that they're different from run-of-the-mill Awakened characters (tough people may have forgotten that with all these priority A spellcasting adepts roaming around). Also, other magical characters don't get to throw ungodly amounts of dice for their chosen specialty skills, so I think it evens out.

I haven't played an adept with Astral Perception bought at full cost, but that's because I used to be the GM. I've made plenty of them, tough.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 24 2003, 09:32 PM

Unfortunately, magic is one of those things where you got a lot of apples and a lot of oranges and a lot of blue apples and a lot of pears. The cost of astral perception is 33% or 25% (with voluntary geasa) of the adept's total power points. It is a bit harsh, but that is, in my opinion, to restrict it to adepts who really need/want it. At 2 points, it's only taken by those adepts who really want/need it. At a lower cost, it would start becoming commonplace among adepts. It's all in whether or not you want that to be the case.

The general idea seems to be that most adepts simply aren't in tune with astral space enough to see into it. If your adepts are more mystical, then lowering the cost of astral perception (and the powers which are like weaker versions of it, like empathic sense) makes sense. The way the "standard" game world works seems to indicate that it's not all that common among adepts.

Of course, being able to play "geek the mage" with astral perception and Improved Ability (something that kills people) +6 is just nasty. Particularly when your foes try to go to pains to make all of the guards look the same (making picking out the mage difficult).

Posted by: Senchae Oct 24 2003, 09:41 PM

I play an adept who paid 2 points for perception. I can't imagine not being able to assense, though I wouldn't have paid 2 points just for that ability.
But ours is such a magic heavy game I would have been at a disadvantage without astral perception.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 24 2003, 09:42 PM

Link to http://ourteam.home.comcast.net/houserules.htm

And on a similar note, rules we have accidentally played wrong and are working to correct:

Link to http://ourteam.home.comcast.net/rulenotes.htm

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 24 2003, 09:45 PM

Posted by: Dr Vital Oct 24 2003, 09:46 PM

Okay. I stand convinced and the rule is allowed to remain as it is!

So says I!

That said I'm glad that the GM is there to bend the rules to fit the situation, since I'm going to be able toget Astral perception and hang out with that new spirit contact I just got.

And of course, kill hidden mage guards on sight!

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 24 2003, 09:49 PM

I like the rules notes, OurTeam. However, that first one on background skills is an optional rule.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 24 2003, 10:01 PM

Thanks TinkerGnome. I'll update that.

By the way, the page number decimal points refer to where on the page the rule occurs. The left column is numbered, for example, from 90.0 in the top left corner through 90.4 in the bottom left. The right column would be 90.5 (top right corner) through 90.9 (bottom right). I've been doing this for years, and it is very helpful.

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 25 2003, 04:32 AM

Another useful House Rule:

RULE OF SIX (p.38, SR3)
In addition to the standard Rule of Six, an additional success is added to the target number for every 10 levels that each die beats the target number. Thus, if a character rolls 7 dice against a TN of 3, and achieves 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 13, 25, he receives eight successes – one for each 4, one for the 5, two for the 13 (13 – 3 is 10), and three for the 25 (25 – 3 is 22). If the 25 had instead been a 33, it would have been worth four successes (33 – 3 is 30). This solves two problems – one, it is now possible (although unlikely) for a character to achieve more successes than he has dice pool, and two, a TN of 7, 13, 19 and so on are no longer statistically equivalent to a TN of 6, 12, or 18, since the probability of getting additional successes is lowered.
Likewise, target numbers below 2 are now possible – a 1 is still a failure, but the lowered TN determines the threshold at which extra successes are counted. Thus, at a TN of 2, a die roll of 2-11 is one success, 12-21 is two successes, 22-31 is three successes, and so on. At a TN of 1, these thresholds are 2-10, 11-20, 21-30 and so on; at a TN of 0, these thresholds are 2-9, 10-19, 20-29; at a TN of –1 they are 2-8, 9-18, 19-28; and at a TN of –6 they are 2-3, 4-13, and 14-23. With target numbers lower than –7, double or even triple successes are automatic.

Posted by: mfb Oct 25 2003, 09:53 AM

http://www.shadowland.org/Shadowland/Private%20Campaigns/objects/page7838.html for the merc game i'm running.

Posted by: spotlite Oct 25 2003, 11:59 PM

we have some changes to the karma system. Everything works as it does in the books except:

You can buy successes with good karma not Karma Pool, providing you get at least one on the test, up to the number of dice on the main skill/attribute rolled, not including pools. Yes, this means the characters are much more survivable and can do far more spectacular feats - but if they spend them, thats less for character advancement and its a tricky line to walk. And as I always say - Shadowrun is everyone's favorite action movie. If the main characters keep getting killed or screwing up its just not cool...

Also, if you want to re-roll failures more than once, it doesn't just increase incrementally as it does in the book, it doubles each time. This nicely balances out the good karma rule above in my experience. We've been playing it this way since before Sr3, and we found it works. Not for everyone, I'm sure, but it works for us!

Oh, and we have Deadlier Over-Damage, Extra Strength Remedy: in addition to the rule about attacks with a greater power than 1.5xBody, we also have that if the power of the attack causes deadly damage and was greater than 2xBody, it's instant death, only Hand of God rolls will save you, assuming you have it left. So beleive you me, they DO die every now and again!

And I think that's it for major changes.

Posted by: spotlite Oct 26 2003, 01:47 PM

D'OH! I forgot the most major change - all characters get +1KP per 10 GK as per standard rules for humans, up to reaching 5KP, at which point EVERYone earns it at 1 per twenty. Then it goes to one per thirty above 10KP. If they drop below either of these thresholds by burning pool, they go back to the lower rate.

Lets everyone advance at the same rate because i really didn't like the SR3 way of doing things with regard the different races - though I do understand why they did. It also keeps the pools low enough that re-rolls don't take over the game, which keeps all the characters a bit more in the non-superhuman range a bit longer so low level stuff can still be challenging.

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 26 2003, 08:11 PM

Posted by: spotlite Oct 27 2003, 08:25 AM

Had plenty of Physads with astral perception in my game. Never found 2 points that restricting except in the case of one guy who picked a physical mage, obviously hoping he'd be able to munch out. Bit of a shock when he found he really couldn't without vast quantities of karma. The character spent 4 points on magical power and then bought astral perception with the other 2. He's since initiated twice just so he can apply centering to his unarmed combat and behave a little like a physad once in a while!

But apart from this one failed attempt at munchkinism, I've seen five or six physads in our game with the power and yeah its expensive, but not too expensive. Admittedly, very few adepts buy it except at character gen (because in my experience players just can't wait to improve their powers. If they just spent 20-odd karma initiating I think its genetically bred into them that they spend it immediately cos they hate walking round with that extra point of magic and little else to show for it!), but buy it they do.

When you look at the cost of it and the number of things it lets you do I think its worth two. The other improved senses only reduce target numbers (except sound filters which add extra dice), they don't give the character an ability shared by only 1% or less of the population (that stat i think is from Awakenings, possibly MITS, in the background which states that less that one in a hundred people have magical ability, and only 1 in a hundred of THEM is a full mage. So 99% of Awakened types are what used to be called adepts of one type - sorcerors, conjurors, physads, astral adepts, etc). Giving physads astral perception cheaper puts them on a level with their Awakened peers, but still gives them a massive advantage compared to the rest of metahumanity, and I think that's why its on the expensive side. Considering that physads only take drain on one ability I can think of, they get off easy compared to their Awakened counterparts, so i don't think making it more expensive to bring areas where they lack up to that level should be that cheap.

If it works in your game though, have what you like! I might introduce a limited version which is more 'astral sight' than full 'astral perception'. It'll have all the drawbacks (dual natured etc) but you'll only be able to perceive, not set up wards, do Cleansing and so forth. Astral combat would work as normal though. Yeah, I kinda like that. They can have that version for 1 point, and the full version at 2. Choices, choices...

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 27 2003, 08:42 AM

Well, considering you could effectively have Astral Perception for 0 points via Surge (spend 10 points to Surge and gain 10 points for being Dual Natured, hardly a negative for most Adepts who specialize in combat anyhows), I think 2 points is way too much. But I don't play an Adept, and when I did, I didn't buy Perception, I bought 6 levels of Improved Ability (whip) for my nunchaku's with a Talisman Geasa, 6 levels of Improved Ability Stealth and Athletics, and TracelessWalk/Balance Augmentation. Never had room or concern for Astral Perception, and my thinking had nothing to do with the points actually, it was just un-needed as it's as much a flaw as an edge.

You honestly think most Adepts are wanting to Assense, or setup Wards? Nah, the Adept that takes Perception, 9 out of 10 times, is creating a Spirit Warrior type and it's the only way to fight an astral being. Of course, if a spirit wants to fight me without Astral Perception, it has to materialize and I still kick it's ass.

No, AP isn't worth 2 points at all.

Sphynx

Posted by: John Campbell Oct 27 2003, 10:08 AM

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 27 2003, 11:56 AM

Heh, don't think I was calling other people stupid there boss, it was just stupid not to have one. I mean, hell, take ANY skill from 0 to 3 for 3 ( vs 8 ) karma. And don't exploit the elitist 'character' arguement to explain why not to have something that gives you near photgraphic memory and makes it more than twice as easy to learn skills. There's no character concept (other than the anti-ware concept) that would not want to have both of those potentials. Never once heard of a character concept which included a "I just wanna be a slow learner with a bad memory". It fits into any concept imaginable, and at 0.6 BI, there's not a character out there that wouldn't want it once they see the rules for it.

Sphynx

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 27 2003, 02:42 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 27 2003, 02:56 PM

You're right on the Surge thing, I just remember it was perfectly offset by Dual Natured and forgot that DN was variable dependant on Awakened. So it's spend-5, gain+5 instead of -10/10.

You're wrong on the Astral Perception though, as the book says, anyone who is Dual Natured can even start learning to Aura Read.

Sphynx

Posted by: spotlite Oct 27 2003, 05:00 PM

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 27 2003, 11:25 PM

yeah, he's a nutbag. You use Str for damage if you're dual, and Chr if you're projecting. Still, dual nature kicks ASS for adepts, who can buy up Improved Attribute: Strength and get a Strength of 15 as a human.

Posted by: Kurukami Oct 28 2003, 12:48 AM

There is, of course, the unusual alternative for physads of taking magic as their first priority, becoming magician-adepts, and getting all the benefits of astral perception plus spellcasting and conjuring for a minimum cost of 1 power point. I'd probably take 2 points in it, just to be on the safe side if I got hit with deadly damage, but...

Posted by: Zazen Oct 28 2003, 01:22 AM

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 28 2003, 01:22 AM

I thought they couldn't do conjuring, only sorcery?

Posted by: Zazen Oct 28 2003, 01:27 AM

They can use both, but they don't get astral perception for free. They have to buy it for 2 power points like every other adept.

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 28 2003, 02:53 AM

I thought that was changed in SR3? And how can they cast if they can't perceive?

Posted by: tisoz Oct 28 2003, 02:57 AM

If they perceive while casting, it would raise the TN by 2. You no longer sinchronize auras, or whatever to cast. They no longer mention auras extending beyond armor, etc..

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 28 2003, 03:00 AM

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 28 2003, 03:02 AM

Wow. That kinda sucks. That was what I liked most about SR1/2 - how detailed and consistent the magic was.

Posted by: tisoz Oct 28 2003, 03:13 AM

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 28 2003, 05:48 AM

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 28 2003, 06:25 AM

I have two adept characters playing my game out of two characters. One purchased astral perception in game, for 2 points and has never regretted it.

The ability to spot Bug spirits and mages alone...

Posted by: mfb Oct 28 2003, 06:40 AM

i may eventually pick up astral perception, but there are more important things my adept needs. when he started out, i spend 5 points on Imp Reflexes and a point on senses; for all intents and purposes, he's a street sam without cyber. i grabbed killing hands with my first 20 karma, then initiated three times and picked up pain resistance each time. my next purchase will be a custom power that gives me -1 to dodge tests for 2 power points; after that, i'll probably pick up another point's worth of senses. then, if something else hasn't caught my eye, i might get astral percep. or maybe not.

Posted by: Siege Oct 28 2003, 07:10 AM

Mfb:

Instead of blowing two points on that power, but try pitching "balance augment" (sense power. 25) and apply it to gymnastic tumbling (Athletics).

Then use Athletics with all your enhanced skill dice to substitute for Dodge.

-Siege

Posted by: mfb Oct 28 2003, 07:14 AM

that will be one of the sense augs i pick up, actually. along with ultrasound, select sound filter, and... crap, what's the one that helps you locate the direction a sound's coming from, or somesuch?

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 28 2003, 09:16 AM

The blood splatters generally tell me what direction the sound came from.

Posted by: Dr Vital Oct 28 2003, 09:18 AM

Well, for all the trouble I've caused, I'm probably not going to take it right away. I'm looking to get my Acrobatics rolls up to some spectacularly high levels, and right now I have none...

Posted by: michaelius Oct 28 2003, 02:54 PM

as far as astral perception goes (and some house rules too), i have some physads who find it indispensable. it's kind of important to know that most of my gaming sessions (when i'm GMing...or playing too actually) tend to not be very combat heavy, so skills that help me avoid combat and such are more useful. i think there's a lot to be said for AP helping with people skills (negotiation, interrogation, assensing truthfulness) and recognizing someone (may not come up often in some games, but it makes the disguise skill useless).

as far as house rules go, i've got two that may set off a powderkeg of replies:

a new power called "bullet sight". it costs two Ppoints and essentially shows the physad the path a bullet will take via a "laser-like" line in his field of vision. however, it's also sensing the person's firing so that the lines are of actual bullet paths, not theoretical. that may make no sense at all, but all it really does is give an added dodge check. currently it's only applicable to an NPC, so i haven't figured exact rules yet, but it just evens out the fact that he fights without any weapons.

i've also allowed this NPC to use a form of astral percep in the matrix. i figure astral percep is seeing a person's aura and i extrapolate that a person puts pieces of themselves in their icon programs and that since the programs are directly connected to the person's brain, some of their aura will bleed into the matrix.

neither of these things are player usable yet, as they can be very unbalancing, but it fit the story-line for this NPC very well.

also, a great way to start a campaign is to play a shadowrunner before they became a shadowrunner. it give incredible background to use and also creates enemies/emnity without any legwork other than roleplaying. it's also a lot of fun for the player to go from being a relative mundane to having these new "things" (cyber, magic, guns) that they've never had before and what they are going to do with them. anyhow...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2003, 05:22 PM

If you mean that he can see the path the bullet will take from the gun, that could be reasonable, if potentially gamebreaking.
If you mean the path a bullet in the air will take, it doesn't matter. Even if his brain processes the info fast enough, he won't be able to dodge.

~J

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 28 2003, 05:41 PM

Specializations
Skill Specializations may be purchased at arbitrary levels with Karma. However, a character may not have more separate Specializations in a single base Skill than the base Skill’s rating. Thus, a character with Edged Weapons(3) could not possess more than three separate Specializations of Edged Weapons, although each Specialization could be arbitrarily high. When increasing the level of a base Skill, subtract 1 from the Karma Cost for each Specialization in that Skill, as this knowledge is ‘absorbed’ back into the new level’s enhanced general understanding.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 28 2003, 06:05 PM

Posted by: Zazen Oct 28 2003, 10:24 PM

I think he's offering his house rules, considering that this is the "house rules" thread

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 29 2003, 12:35 AM

Ah, my bad. Thanks.

Posted by: Siege Oct 29 2003, 12:52 AM

Posted by: Morphling The Pretender Oct 29 2003, 02:39 AM

Yikes, I feel into this topic late. This might have already been said.

To Sphynx:

I think that nearly everything you changed has a reason for being that way (I.E. not needing to be particularly awesome).

Adepts (washouts/groggies) should need to spend more than .5 points on Astral Perceptions. Maybe 2 is too much, but 1.5 should be the least (w/o a geas). Why? Because the force is weak with them; the astral plane is just not that easy to access for someone who is only accustomed to magic in a homeopathic way. The physical does not translate so easily over to the emotional.

Why not give drones hardened armor? If it's because Drone Riggers are running riot, remember: it works both ways; enemy drones have it too. If it's because Drone Riggers are butchering PCs, don't send good drones after them untill they get AV ammo. Sure, an Ares Predator can take down a light drone, but my Uzi III should have nothing but a hard time cutting into a Steel Lynx, even with Full Auto.

My goodness, those costs for Cyberlimbs are certainly forgiving. They aren't realistic (it's not just adding one or two things; it's an involved process to make a cyberlimb faster/stronger.)

Increased Reflexes isn't supposed to be able to compare to WR3 or BR3+SA or MBW4 or any of that. It's supposed to be just alright, not awesome. The ability to geek 5 guys in one shot is enough of an advantage, in my book.

I wasn't aware that Cyberguns used CyberImplant Combat. If it does, I agree with that change. THAT makes no sense.

As far as mixing drugs, I'd let then get all the affects, but give them the GM discretionary side effects after the fact. Much more fun and evil and wrong that way.

Sorry to sound like Mr. Negativity here, but I just wanna add my $.02. I'm not gonna come to your house and make you play canon. I welcome your defenses and tomatoes.
--------------------
beauty
was the allure that brought me close to you
loneliness
was the bond that made me stick like glue

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 29 2003, 02:50 AM

The sound location cyberware is called Spacial Recognizer, IIRC, and is in M&M towards the front.

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 29 2003, 08:01 AM

Posted by: DIABLO@magenet.org Oct 29 2003, 10:48 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2003, 04:15 PM

With a shock hand it'd make perfect sense to use CI Combat, as you're learning how to bring your hand into contact with people in a very specific way.

~J

Posted by: Sphynx Oct 29 2003, 04:25 PM

Is that 'way' different than using Shock Gloves?

Is the way to use CyberSpurs different than Forearm Snap Blades (before you say yes, read the description)?

As for the mention of pistols, despite the description saying that it combines unarmed techniques with edged weapon techs, we've encountered enough people who 'interprete' that any cyber-implanted-weapon uses the skill to House Rule, if for no reason other than interpretation.

Sphynx

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 29 2003, 04:42 PM

CI and unarmed combat directly default to each other, so the question isn't "is it different" but rather, "is it different enough?"

Posted by: spotlite Oct 29 2003, 06:08 PM

Er, I know this is the house rules thread, but don't drones have hardened armour anyway, if they're armoured at all? Unless something specifically says they're mounting ballistic armour instead of vehicle armour, then its normal vehicle armour which IS hardened. So its not a house rule, its an actual rule!

that's one of the reasons why they all have fairly low armour ratings (load being another biggie). The fact that its a vehicle at all means you divide the power by 2 and drop the damage level then compare it to the armour rating. If the now halved power isn't greater than the armour then unless its mounting AV, not APDS ammo it pings off. If it IS greater, you drop the damage level AGAIN, take off the armour rating, and the vehicle soaks with control pool from the rigger if she's directly controlling it. If its' one of deus' creations then the damn thing could have tried a dodge too.

I think drones are more survivable than you give them credit for just as they stand, Morphling! Of course there's the called shot option that Sphinx gave, but have I missed something? Did I read the rules totally wrong all this time? How come you're suggesting hardened armour as a house rule?

Posted by: Siege Oct 29 2003, 06:08 PM

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 29 2003, 06:21 PM

Posted by: Siege Oct 29 2003, 06:27 PM

If I'm a boxer (for example), I know how to throw punches. Now, if I know I've got a set of brass knuckles on one hand, I can jab and feint to set up a right hook (with the brass knuckles).

Since SR unarmed combat doesn't emphasize individual techniques like punch from kick from knee from elbow, it's reasonable to assume that someone with Karate could focus on landing attacks from a specific body part.

Now, I will grant you that some unarmed combat styles will focus on a specific set of techniques (kicks over punches, or punches exclusively) but to create a combat style exclusively on, say, the left punch is just...absurd?

-Siege

Posted by: spotlite Oct 29 2003, 06:29 PM

There are precedent rules for making a touch attack. Under Spells>Range, P178 SR3, it states -

"to touch an unwilling target, the caster must make a normal unarmed attack as part of the complex action of spellcasting. The attack is made at -1 because the caster only needs to touch the target.One net success is sufficient for the caster to touch the target."

So surely the basics of that would hold true for a touch attack? The attacker makes an unarmed combat attack at -1 TN. If they touch the attacker, net successes will stage up the damage of whatever it is they're touching them with as normal for shock attacks (because the actual touch isn't doing damage, but WHERE you touch them will affect how badly it affects them - bearing in mind its a non-hit location damage system, this is purely a 'game effect' not actually a hit somewhere specific but for dramatic effect purposes a GM could say 'yep, you caught him in the throat. Down he goes!' or something).

one net success - base shock damage minus half impact as normal plus any insulation modifiers.

Does that sound reasonable?

Posted by: bwdemon Oct 30 2003, 01:14 AM

There are a few house rules that I felt really helped my game. Among them are my old autofire rules...

1. Dice Pool = standard SR3.
2. TN = standard SR3 TN for firing, but without recoil penalties.
3. First success = 1st bullet hit.
4. Additional successes tell how many more rounds hit, as per recoil effects.
4a. 1 success/round for compensated rounds.
4b. 2 successes/round for uncompensated rounds.
4c. 3 successes/round for uncompensated rounds from heavy weapons.
4d. compensated rounds are accounted for before uncompensated rounds.
5. Each successful round hitting adds one to the power of the attack.
6. Damage Code is raised through standard staging rules.
6a. Damage Code is not raised once/3 bullets as in SR3's autofire rules.
7. Dodging TN is per standard SR3 rules.

And my alteration of pistol damage to 6M for light pistols, 7M for most heavy pistols, and 8M for the highest-power heavy pistols. This brought pistols inline with SMGs, which share the same ammo and probably should share the same damage codes.

[edit]

I forgot to add that I modify die pools so that if you use dice from one pool, they also come off all other usable pools. So if you use 3 spell pool dice to resist drain, you also lose 3 dice from your combat pool. This was done to balance magic-using characters in combat so they couldn't dodge or resist damage freely while simultaneously using spell pool. Karma pool is exempted.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 30 2003, 01:30 AM

One house rule that i use is -2 Power for heavy handguns.

Cos i feel that a basic human in a vest should stand a good chance of getting away with only a cracked rib from a hundgun. Puts them in line with smgs also. (thank's bwdemon for reminding me)

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 30 2003, 10:41 PM

A bit of a drastic house rule, but one that seems to work a bit better for my games:

Burst-fire and Autofire (p.115, SR3; p.103, CC)
Rather than staging up the Power and Damage Level of an attack, a burst adds a number of dice equal to the number of bullets being fired to the attack test. Thus, a 3-round burst would add 3 dice to the attack test, while a 15-round burst would add 15 dice to the attack test. This makes bursts much harder to dodge, and somewhat easier to hit with ‘spray and pray’ tactics, without having to compute and compare different attack Powers for armor and barriers. Successes from these dice stage damage up normally, and must be overcome by any Dodge test for the target to completely avoid damage.

Recoil (p.115, SR3; p.103, CC)
A character receives a base amount of Recoil Compensation equal to the sum of the Strength of each arm being used to hold and brace the weapon, divided by five (round down). If after firing a burst from a weapon, the total Recoil modifier exceeds twice the Body of the firing character, the character must make a Strength test vs. (½ Recoil – Body) to avoid Knockdown.
Gyrostabilization provides up to the gyro’s level in bonuses for Recoil Compensation and Movement Modifier; add both together before subtracting the amount of stabilization. For every 3 full points of actual compensation (Recoil + Movement) provided, remove 1 from the character’s remaining Combat pool to reflect the gyromount’s inertia counteracting the character. If no Combat pool dice are remaining this turn, there is no further effect. Thus, if a character has 10 points of gyrostabilization available, and runs (+2) while firing a Full Auto Burst that adds +5 Recoil (total +7), the gyrostabilization automatically reduces the To-Hit modifier by –7, and removes 2 dice from the character’s Combat Pool before the shot is resolved. If the character were standing still (-1) while firing a burst that added +12 Recoil (total +11), the gyrostabilization would reduce the To-Hit modifier by –10 and remove 3 dice from the character’s Combat Pool before the shot is resolved. Factor in all other Recoil modifiers before determining the effect of gyrostabilization.

Posted by: Morphling The Pretender Oct 30 2003, 11:53 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 31 2003, 12:35 AM

And even if it doesn't penetrate it'll cause trauma.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 31 2003, 12:48 AM

Posted by: easytohate Oct 31 2003, 12:56 AM

On guns vs body armor

Anyone here ever wear or train with body armor? I think it would be safe to say that we could treat the improvements in technology as scaled up versions of today's military grade. So the AP is going to be a large bore high power handgun. Now colt just started making a 75 cal pistol in today's market, it's a very very special gun because of the recoil involved. So lets assume that the AP is a 75 cal with technical and material improvements.

Match a 75 to today's high end kevlar and steel plate armor and the gun will win most of the time. The damage will be reduced and the trauma spread out but the slug will still make it through the armor. Just like a round from a standard high powered rifle would on a direct hit.

Scale up the armor to 2063 standard and you still have the problem, there is just not enough material in the armor vest to stop the round completely. Unfortunately for cops and military this as been the case for most of history, the armor is never better than the high end weapons that can be brought to bare against it.

In my games I keep the HPstl rules as they are, wits and intelligence will always keep you safer than the armor vest. The vest is just there to help you survive the mistakes.

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 31 2003, 02:07 AM

Finally.

Opinions, please:

http://www.wherethesundontshine.net/rpg/shadowrun/SR3_House_Rules.pdf

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 31 2003, 02:52 AM

That was kinda my point. you would take a light- medium under my rules, but with the basic rules it's a medium to serious. Now granted im not say with BA you would take nothing, But (to me at least) a bruised/ cracked rib is a light - moderate wound.

Even under SR rules the maths back me.

Power 7 minus 3-4 (vest with/ without plates) target is 3-4 depending.

Either way you look at it, it's a light - moderate wound. Slighted depending of cause.