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Posted by: kenny26 Oct 26 2003, 10:07 PM

when i first bought the canon companion, i was thrilled 2 see that they'd included the minigun in the statistics!

but then came the following dissapointment... the minigun fires 15 bullets/round, no more, no less, and it doesn't take barrel mounts!
so my question is: how on earth can this gun ever be fired with even the slightest chance of a hit???

the rules state that all uncompensated recoil modifiers are doubled when dealing with heavy weapons, and the minigun only takes a top and under barrel mount.
i've been through every piece of gear in the books, but there was no recoil compensating accesories that could be top barrel mounted. so my conclution was that you could only use one single recoil compensating accesory for the minigon (an under barrel mount), which makes it impossible to get a recoil comensation that would even make a difference!
you can't hit anything with this sucker! how can that be??? there must be some use for this weapon...

help, please...

Posted by: Bearclaw Oct 26 2003, 10:09 PM

The way the SR system applies recoil to the entire burst makes it useless. Sorry, it's just a problem with the game mechanic.
On the otherhand, wouldn't it be a huge pain in the butt to roll the first bullet, then, add 2 to the TN and roll the second bullet, then add 2 more and roll the third bullet, etc etc etc?

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 26 2003, 10:10 PM

A foregrip can be top mounted. Then again, It already has a top grip, so the only time in which it could be used would be with an articulated arm.

Gyro units seem like the most logical way of handling the minigun. If you can get a Troll with a strength of 19, you get an extra -3 recoil comp. SO, cyberarm(19 strength = -3 recoil) + maxgyro (-7 recoil) That gives you 10 points of recoil comp right there. Only 5 more to go.

5 more points lets see.

Articulated arm + foregrip = Hmm the rules dont say you can use an articulated arm for recoil stabalizing on anything larger then a light machine gun. Let me direct you to the picture on page 34 of the CC. What is that I see? An articulated arm gripping a forgrip on the assault cannon?

Hmm lets look at teh other options.

Hip pads. 1 point.

How about mounting it onto a vehicle?

Posted by: kenny26 Oct 26 2003, 10:15 PM

well, i was sort'a hoping for some good advice on how to change these follish game mechanics (at least make an exception for the minigun).

and a foregrip only gives 1 point of RC, so it makes virtually no difference (but thanks for pointing it out anyway).
so with a max gyro, a foregrip and a troll's strength, you can muster a total of 9 points of RC, with the remaining 6 to be doubled...

Posted by: Mephisto Oct 26 2003, 10:17 PM

Use supressive fire...

Posted by: Siege Oct 26 2003, 10:22 PM

Although the "no barrel accessories" makes a certain amount of sense...

-Siege

Posted by: kenny26 Oct 26 2003, 10:22 PM

well, my point is that a minigun kicks major @$$, correct?
but the game mechanics don't display this quallity of the weapon, so i'm looking for creative solutions to make it a more respectable weapon in combat (like it's supposd to be).

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 26 2003, 10:26 PM

I guess you could have barrel mounts, as long as you get 6 of them.... And it would be heavy, 6X the weight. Canon seems reasonable though.

Posted by: Digital Heroin Oct 26 2003, 10:26 PM

Two words: Gyro Stabalization

Next thing you're going to ask to be ableo to run around with it in on hand, and a coffin in the other like the Governator... it's meant to be a big nasty pain in the ass to use my friend, but a gyro harness'll help ease the pain...

Posted by: Siege Oct 26 2003, 10:27 PM

I think the general concensus was the man-portable minigun is a fun toy, but really (really) impractical from a logistics point of view.

The amount of ammo you have to haul around makes it logistically complicated (never mind "Predator").

The weight and while I can't speak to the recoil never having fired one before, I would imagine it proves difficult for a large majority of troops.

The anti-vehicle role it's designed to play can be accomplished better by other weapons.

You might ask Ray for a more informed opinion on the viability of the thing.

-Siege

Posted by: El_Machinae Oct 26 2003, 10:29 PM

If you hose multiple targets, then you will have a chance of hitting the first few you shoot at.

As well, can't you mount it on a vehicle? I was under the impression that vehicle mounting was a superior way of reducing recoil.

Posted by: kenny26 Oct 26 2003, 10:30 PM

i've already mentioned the gyro stabilisation unit, and it doesn't give much recoil compensation compared to the weapons huge firing rate....
that is unless i've overlooked some aspect of the gyro mount...

and i'm not asking for much. in fact, all i'm asking for is to reduce the recoil at any costs. i don't care if the gun has to be mounted on a tank, just as long as it can actually be considered useful in any given combat situation, like all the other weapons in SR...

but i liked the idea buzzed came up with.
and also, i had forgotten that you could spread the rain of bullets among several targets. but still, this doesn't set the weapon much apart in power than so many other cheaper weapons.

and finally, El_Machinae, i've checked the possibilities of mounting one on a vehicle, and the best result is to have the recoil halfed, which still leaves 7 points uncompensated (and i don't think it's plausible to make use of a vehicle mount and a gyro unti at the same time).

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 26 2003, 10:41 PM

Become a rigger and use a drone that you use for legs and stabalizing while you fire at things. A combat wheelchair for miniguns if you will.

Hmm, a mobilized version of the Max-gyro, that moves with you like a 3rd leg on a wheel, to eliminate the movement penalty. SOTA is calling it's name.

Posted by: John Campbell Oct 26 2003, 11:00 PM

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 26 2003, 11:10 PM

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, a minigun is a heavy weapon, and as such suffers 2X uncompensated recoil. So sticking it on a vehicule still leaves you with +15 modifier. Otherwise, you're looking at +30. Fun, neh?

Posted by: El_Machinae Oct 26 2003, 11:54 PM

I'm pretty sure the 2x recoil for heavy weapons is only a factor if the weapon isn't on a tripod or mounted on a vehicle.

Posted by: Cray74 Oct 27 2003, 12:14 AM

Posted by: Lilt Oct 27 2003, 12:16 AM

Max Gyro (7) + Troll Str (3) + Foregrip (1) + Hip pad (1)

Where exactly do people say that it already has a foregrip? Am I missing something?

Anyway: with this setup you could quite easily spit out two 16D bursts (on TNs 2 and 4 if you count a smartlink) and let the other three bullets fly wild. You don't have to shoot all the bullets at the same target, you don't even need to shoot all of the bullets at targets. Say you're aiming to get the first 9 on one target and you don't care about the rest; 21D is definately nasty and possible for the meager sum of 30:nuyen: in bullets.

Suppressive Fire is also your friend.

Posted by: Tziluthi Oct 27 2003, 01:44 AM

I don't think that you can fire the minigun in bursts. It's all or nothing.

Posted by: mfb Oct 27 2003, 01:53 AM

mounting a weapon on a vehicle negates the double uncomp recoil mod for heavy weapons, according to R3. if you're silly enough to want to lug it around on foot, i'd reccomend an advanced gyromount (7 RC), a cyberarm gyro (3 RC), hip pads (1 RC), barrel weight (1 RC), and high strength (1-3 RC). this should easily be sufficient.

if you're looking for alternate autofire rules, try this: calculate the TN without recoil mods. then, subtract the full recoil mod from the highest die you rolled, and add the amount of recoil compensation. this tells you how many rounds struck the target (up to the number fired); adjust the damage level accordingly, then stage according to how many of the highest die you rolled.

for instance, if i fire a full-auto burst from an AK-97 with 4 skill and 4 RC, i might roll a 4, a 2, an 8, and an 8 (lucky shot!). 8 is my highest roll; from it, i subtract the full recoil (10 rounds, 10 points of recoil) and come up with -2. then, i add my recoil comp of 4, and come up with 2. therefore, 2 rounds have hit the target; my burst does 10M damage, staged up by successes to 10S.

Posted by: 252 Oct 27 2003, 02:14 AM

You can use the optional rule for trace fire with the gun. Which makes it a suporior hitting tool.

You can mount it on a tripod.

I think it might be possible to apply both a tripod and the gyro stabilizer to the thing as well. I mean using the gyro stabilizer as a top mounted accessory, I see the thing as a surrounding the entire weapon accessory from most pictures and the game calls it a bottom, so I don't know why you couldn't possibly reverse it. It works on gyroscopic motion so being above shouldn't be hard to configure correctly for the weapon, it is not like it works on gravition or some such thing. I guess it is the GMs decision.

Next as people have been saying suppressive fire.

For those that want to know a bit about suppressive fire and searching fire I refer to you to cannon companion pg 106, 107 and103 respectively.

Note: Though I understand some of the physics behind it I'm not pretending or trying to make anyone believe that I have actually used firearms in anyway. Thus I am not a great authority on these matters.

Posted by: mfb Oct 27 2003, 02:18 AM

yeah, tracers are also a big help. -1 TN per 3 rounds fired. you can also use phosphorus ammo, to make up for the lower damage of tracer rounds. nasty, those.

Posted by: Cain Oct 27 2003, 02:20 AM

You're all forgetting about the supressive fire rules. Recoil doesn't matter on that, nor does skill. All that matters is how much ammo you can send downrange, and the miniguns are very good at that.

Posted by: mfb Oct 27 2003, 02:32 AM

skill matters somewhat. after all, you still have to roll, and at +2 TN; even at short range, you still need some skill to hit anything.

Posted by: Lilt Oct 27 2003, 10:32 AM

MFB's system is interesting, but it makes it even less likely that you are going to hit with more than one bullet when unloading large amounts of lead at a target.

I like the idea of using the highest die rolled as this is something ignored in most SR tests. If I'm GMing and a player rolls 6 after 6 after 6 then it feels a bit of a shame to let the roll go to waste. I'd usually just tell them they look particularily cool while they do whatever it is.

Posted by: thunderchild Oct 27 2003, 11:16 AM

In my games (dont know if this is canon or not, been using it so long) if you tripod mount something it no longer counts as a heavy weapon for recoil rules. Well if you use tracers and fire the full 15 thats -5 to the tn, use a tripod (-6), foregrip(-1), custom grips (-1) and a smartlink (-2) HEY YOUR AT EVEN TN TO HIT!.

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 27 2003, 02:40 PM

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 27 2003, 02:47 PM

It all boils down to the Max Gyro. Remember. You dont have to hit alot with it, as long as you hit. So the uncompinsated recoil is really not that much of an issue.

1 success is all you need to turn a target into a swiss cheese pulp pudding. The chances of resisting a 22D damage with 1 success is almost impossible. If they do get 2 successes, it would require ALOT of armor and body to do so. Even then they would be at severe damage.

Remember the other drawback though. The knockdown on this gun really hurts the user, so keep some stim patches handy when you use it.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Oct 27 2003, 03:15 PM

Seems the common arrangement would be max gyro (RC 7), Custom Grip (RC 1), Hip pad (RC 1), Foregrip (RC 1, for a troll), Strength 12+ (RC 2). That leaves you with 3 points of recoil, doubling to a +6 modifier. Your tracer rounds drop it to +1. You can't get a tracer benefit with smartlink, so ignore it, the -5 is way better and get vision mag 3 cyberware to compensate.

Now, you're firing a weapon at +1 TN to hit, for 17D and a dodge TN of 9. What else could you want?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Oct 27 2003, 03:21 PM

Mephisto, Cray, and Cain are all correct. Use supressive fire. Miniguns, quite simply, cannot be aimed short of vehicle mounts, gyro stabilization, tracer rounds, high strength, and a whole lot else. In real life, miniguns are not aimed, they are pointed. You don't aim at your enemy, you just point it in his general direction and wave it around a little. This is the tactic that the supressive fire rules represent quite well.
The rules aren't bad, some people just use the wrong one in the wrong situation. The only trick is knowing when to switch over.
Seriously, look at the supressive fire rules, with 15 bullets, you can do pretty effective damage over a VERY wide arc, and in the right situations, geek/wound a LOT of people, WAY more than with aiming (+2/second target)
hmmm, come to think of it, it's been a long time since my players were at the wrong end of one of those things....

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 27 2003, 03:24 PM

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 27 2003, 03:50 PM

small caliber Miniguns are really nice as a micro CWIS for tanks. If they can get the ROF down to around 1000 RPM, it can double as an anti-infantry mount.

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 28 2003, 01:49 AM

Posted by: mfb Oct 28 2003, 02:02 AM

austere, that's true if you're trying to cover a 15-meter area. a better use might be to cover a 3-meter area, 5 rounds per meter. this way, there's almost no way in hell a character will be able to dodge completely (though it's annoying that he'll only get tagged by one round).

Posted by: sidekick Oct 28 2003, 05:30 AM

I got a question about supressive fire. Couldn't I just declare that with said Minigun that I am going to do supressive fire in a 2 meter arc (the meter of the guy I want to shoot, and the meter area next to him) and then hit him (unless he rolls 7 successes on a dodge test), and with a smartlink just roll skill against TN 4 for staging ?

If that is the case, then FA fire is amazing.

Posted by: mfb Oct 28 2003, 05:39 AM

smartlink bonuses don't apply to suppessive fire. the only mods that do, officially, are cover and wounds (note that vis mag is not a modifier per se; it adjusts the base TN, and therefore does apply). unofficially, Rob says that modifiers for defaulting ought to also apply.

Posted by: kenny26 Oct 28 2003, 09:03 AM

ok, now i see quite alot of options that it'd overlooked before...
well, the suppresive fire and many recoil compensators would make the minigun a useful weapon.

and what Austere says about putting a limit to the recoil is also true. i never thought of it that way. how can it be so much more difficult to hit a target than firing blind?
well, this is all useful and i'll take your suggestions into consideration.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 28 2003, 09:55 AM

Motorfirebox, exactly. You'll only every hit with one round. That's why I used the 1 round per sq ft analogy. ~11 sq ft in a square meter, or ~43 in an area 2 x 2 meters square, so there'd still be about 28 square feet of bullet-free area in the average Suppressive Fire area. But, IRL, you could easily have put 4.5 bullets in each sq ft of that area in 3 seconds with any old minigun (though the distribution would certainly not be that even).

Posted by: mfb Oct 28 2003, 10:43 AM

true. that's why i prefer my house autofire rules, though i'll be damned if i can remember exactly how they work. maybe it was: subtract the full recoil mod from the highest die rolled, then add the value of your recoil comp and the original TN?, then, you stage by the number of high rolls you made; if you hit with the maximum number of rounds, all dice that equal or exceed the TN + recoil - recoil comp are used to stage. lemme see:

range Medium, 14-round burst, 8 points RC, 6 skill, smartlink-2. TN is 5 (range) -2 (SL) = 3. let's say i roll 1, 5, 2, 9, 3, 3. that would leave me with (high roll 9 -14 recoil +8 RC +3 TN) = 6 rounds hit. yeah, that makes sense. this way, recoil doesn't interfere with your chance to get the first round on target, and you're rewarded for rolling higher.

as a bonus, i raise the dodge TN based on the total number of rounds in the burst, not just the ones that hit--after all, it's not like the bullets that miss just disappear. this helps mitigate the hit you take on your successes (since you don't often come up with two or more of your highest result).

Posted by: Jonah Oct 28 2003, 11:53 AM

The long and the short of it is Vidicator Miniguns are ment to be mounted on vehicles. 'Old Painless' used in Predator (and the basis of the Vindicator) is a General Electric Minigun off the side of a helicopter.
The USA army looked at making one (they said 'cool what a great support weapon') but found that to hold enough ammo to make the weapon tacticaly viable you had to be Mungo the Super Soldier (not to mention the gun and batteries...).
The other main obstical was that the ejecting shells tended to eviserate the user (not a problem with caseless rounds in SR).
Past that I am a HUGE fan of rotating barrels. If it spin'n I'm grin'n.
If you want a squad based mini gun get a smithy to make one that spews out light pistol or pistol rounds. This weapon would be about the size of an chunky assult rifle and wouldn't have the double recoil rule attached. Geek'n good fun.
I made one called the Viper (following on the 'V' name pattern). A decent helix feed should hold about 80 - 120 pistol sized rounds, heavy but fun.

Just remember the vidicator basicly takes a similar caliber round to a sporting rifle (both are 7S). These are BIG rounds kiddies, bigger than assult rifle rounds!! Think 7.62 mimimum.

Also be careful of the six barrels with six modifications. Man who fire minigun with six weighted barrels feeeeeeeels the gyroscopic force.

Posted by: Stonecougar Oct 28 2003, 12:13 PM

A'ight, my .02. RL GE Miniguns are 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO in caliber, with a cyclic rate of about 6,000 rounds per minute. NO FRAGGING WAY ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE IT MAN PORTABLE. PERIOD, DOT, END. They mounted the fraggers on Huey's in Vietnam, one on each side sponson, and they visibly slowed the chopper down while firing.

My use for Vindicators? My rigger's got a naval variant of the Stallion (Bigger gas tanks!), with a Vindicator in a chin turret. 2000 rounds of AV in the hopper and the thing becomes a fairly effective anti vehicular weapon. Drop a couple Great Dragons under the belly for good measure. They make wonderful AA or aerially mounted weapons. Occasionally, they're okay when mounted in a turret on a vehicle. For my land vehicles, I just use a pair of Ingram Valiants. Cheaper, just as effective, and easier to feed. Granted, there is something just intimidating about that *WHIRRRRRRRRRRRRR...* that makes enemies soil their britches. But mostly, the Vindicator is an odd curio with little practical value. Go for LMGs, MMGs, or HMGs... If you want serious AV capability, get an assault cannon. Buy an Ares Vigorous, put it in a turret, and smartlink the damn thing. Only one shot at a time, but DAMN it's a big one. And if you're a half decent shot, you'll hit your target...

Posted by: Lilt Oct 28 2003, 12:39 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 28 2003, 01:19 PM

Posted by: Stonecougar Oct 28 2003, 02:34 PM

I still think that even at 2000 rpm the recoil would tear the arms off the average troll...

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 28 2003, 03:10 PM

Wrong. Why would you think so? Loads of LMGs fire 1000rpm, like the KK62 I've fired several times. The M249 SAW can also fire 1000rpm. The minigun in question weighs twice that, and fires twice that. Basically, it's the same as if you taped 2 M249s together and fired them at the same time. There are plenty of stories about trolls firing LMGs single handed. In fact, I bet there are plenty of people in the US army who have fired the M249 single handed (though they probably didn't hit shit).

2000rpm with a minigun firing AR/LMG ammo would NOT tear off the arms of any SR character, except maybe an albino otaku 11-year-old girl with all Phys stats at 1. The average man would be quite capable of firing it. The accuracy would suck, and firing it on the move might be extremely hard. But for a troll, it should present absolutely zero problems. Even at 4000rpm. I mean, they weigh 3+ times as much as average humans (and reasonably they should weigh even more than that, see How Much Did You Say He Weighed in the TSS archives).

Now, if this was a minigun firing cannon rounds, or even HMG rounds, then sure, the troll would be in a world of hurt. But it doesn't, so he wouldn't.

Posted by: Athenor Oct 28 2003, 03:44 PM

Hm. Don't have my books with me, but just wanna check:

The minigun still lets you break shots down into 3 round bursts, right? I thought it was only the high-velocity weapons (with max full auto of 18) that required a minimum of 6 round bursts...

With the minigun, I can picture getting off the +3 and the +6 shot with proper recoil mods.. perhaps even the +9 if you are really good, or vehicle mounted... Beyond that, though, the remaining shots would be wasted walking, or just flung out to lower your magazone, or cause collateral damage...

Ever since going on a minigun-viewing spree with Bull, I've never thought that there is a practical man-portable minigun, especially if one does not at least mount it on a tripod or gyro stabilizer. This is not a weapon you are going to lug around with you to the ultra-secret stealth areas.

Also: hitting a car wouldn't be terribly hard with it, no? I mean, miniguns are meant to shred vehicles first and foremost, right?

*grumbles about not having his rules on him*

Athenor

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 28 2003, 04:55 PM

Posted by: John Campbell Oct 28 2003, 04:58 PM

Posted by: Athenor Oct 28 2003, 06:10 PM

Uhm...

IIRC, every example in the book says that the vehicle halving of recoil cancells out the doubling of uncompensated recoil.. So that 9 would be taken from the 15 total...

Athenor

Posted by: Lilt Oct 28 2003, 06:21 PM

Posted by: Athenor Oct 28 2003, 06:46 PM

*sighs* Fine, let me get the book...

p. 207, "Vehicle Weapon Mounts"

Posted by: Lilt Oct 28 2003, 07:44 PM

P207 of what book? That's in the decking section of the BBB and the remote control record sheet in R3 (I admit I don't have Rigger Revised).

Regardless. The quote I gave explicitly stated that fixed mounts half the recoil before applying compensation. Compensated recoil (IE: Recoil that has been removed by recoil compensation) is not uncompensated recoil thus does not figure in the x2 uncompensated recoil penalty for heavy weapons.

Is that so hard? It is +15, halve it due to the vehicle, then apply the mods, -then- doubble the leftovers.

[edit]The quote you gave is on page 307 and it dosen't really make sense as there is no 'doubble recoil modifier' on heavy weapons, only a doubble uncompensated recoil modifier[/edit]

Posted by: Athenor Oct 28 2003, 08:01 PM

*sighs* I don't know how I can spell it out better. The quote I gave (which is referenced in the index, that's how I found it.. and yes, page 307, not 207) says that you halve recoil. That means you apply it after all other recoil has been figured. That makes it semantic as to whether you apply it before or after the heavy double uncompensated recoil... For thge "uncompensated" part means that you put it at the end.

Basically, it comes down to this: In your view, you can fire every bullet out of a minigun with a 4 TN, theoretically -- no recoil applies. In mine, holding down the trigger will give you at least some recoil, no matter what.. I guess if we both interpret this differently, then so be it.

Athenor

Posted by: Lilt Oct 28 2003, 08:24 PM

The minor fact is that it's impossible to 'let-go' of the trigger on the minigun.

Posted by: Athenor Oct 28 2003, 09:42 PM

You are also thinking that you only get one burst.

Let's compare -- 9 points of recoil, shall we?

first grouping: +3 recoil, - 9 RC -- easy, standard TN.
next shot: +6 recoil, see above
next shot: +9 recoil, see above
next shot: +12 recoil.
---In yours, reduce by half (to 6), reduce by 9 to nothing.
---In mine, reduce by 9 (to 3), double uncompensated (6), halve (3)
next shot: +15 recoild
---In yours, reduce by half (7.5), reduce by 9 to nothing.
---In mine, reduce by 9 (to 6), halve and double, to 6.

Just because you can fire no less than 15 bullets, doesn't mean they have to be grouped into a single burst. So you get 5 10-D bursts (someone mentioned the damage code was 7s, right?).. In yours, all 5 of those go with no penalties, in mine, you start getting penalized after the 3rd burst. Which seems more accurate?

I'd like to point out at this fact that firing an A-10's Avenger cannon actually makes the jet slow down, as well as buck upwards a bit, when fired... and that is one hell of a recoil compensated hardpoint...

Athenor

Posted by: Shadow Oct 28 2003, 10:02 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 28 2003, 10:08 PM

That is also a 30mm cannon firing 4200 rounds per minute. That's, what, a hundred times the muzzle energy of a weapon like the VIndicator? A few hundred? And with a RoF 7 times as large. [Edit]Make that 14 times, 4200 vs 300...[/Edit] Translated to SR, that's 20D in a 210 round burst (230D+70, AV). It should in fact be more, because the 30mm rounds certainly have a greater advantage over your average assault cannon rounds than +2 Power.

It certainly shouldn't buck the A-10 UP however, seeing as how the cannon is located below it's center mass. But what do I know, physics work in mysterious ways sometimes, and I'm certainly no physicist.

On the other hand, the M61 Vulcan doesn't slow down F14s, F15s, F16s or F18s, and that's still a 20mm cannon firing 6000 rounds per minute (or is it 4000rpm these days?). It doesn't turn those aircraft in any direction, either. The "shotgun" pattern stays the same all through the 500+ rounds that the aircraft carry. But then the 30mm rounds the GAU-8 fires weigh a lot more (twice as much?) than the 20mm ones, and the muzzle velocity is greater. The 30mm projectile weighs ~100 times as much as an assault rifle bullet, and leaves the barrel just as fast if not faster.

So, comparing that 6.4 meter, 300kg monster to a 5.56x45 or 7.62x51 minigun weighing 15-20kg hardly makes sense. It's like comparing full-auto Assault Cannons with Assault Rifles.

Posted by: Lilt Oct 28 2003, 10:33 PM

Don't Forget that with each of your extra bursts you'd be strafing to a new target (adding +2 TN each time).

Your TNs for that (assuming you have a smartlink) would go 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or under your system 2, 4, 6, 11, 16.

This weapon is also not the A-10's minigun which, if my memory serves me correctly, is an anti-tank weapon. The victory assault cannon (at 7s base damage) is nowhere near. (I think Austere Emancipator said it best)

Anyhow. I might house-rule it when I'm GMing that recoil is neither halved nor doubbled when dealing with heavy weapons on fixed mounts... A 30D full-auto shot from a minigun is somewhat fearsome.

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 28 2003, 11:10 PM

Posted by: Shadow Oct 28 2003, 11:54 PM

Earlier in the thread somone mentioned firing 6 round bursts. I understand walking to targets but they were refering to firing bursts.

Posted by: Lilt Oct 29 2003, 12:14 AM

Bursts are definately not possible. Walking fire is but you'd take a +2 on each target after the first.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 29 2003, 12:31 AM

When you walk autofire from target to target, the book refers to them as bursts. There will be less confusion here if people refer to "burst-fire bursts" and "auto-fire bursts".

Posted by: John Campbell Oct 29 2003, 12:33 AM

Posted by: Phaeton Oct 29 2003, 12:34 AM

Given that the thing spews out fire at an insane rate, and that the Ruger T-bolt heavy pistol has low recoil because of the fact that it doesn't experience recoil til after the third round in a burst, I'd say the canon rules as applied to the Vindicator are semi-screwed up. But that's just me.

Still good for suppressive fire, though.

Posted by: Siege Oct 29 2003, 12:55 AM

Never mind the insane pucker factor.

Let's face it, if you hear the whirrrr of a minigun the next coherent thought to pass through your head will be "ohdrekohdrekohdrekohdrekohdrekohdrekohdrek".

-Siege

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 29 2003, 04:00 AM

Which is why one of my characters carried an audio player with a recording of the whirrrr of a minigun.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Oct 29 2003, 07:59 AM

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 29 2003, 02:27 PM

Revamped autofire rules

I was bored so I decided to add my contribution to the FA discussion. Most of this idea is something I ripped out from the top of my head. My main concern with the FA rules is that it should be EASIER to hit your target with a shitload of lead instead of impossible due to recoil modifiers through the roof.

True, recoil WILL make it harder to hit your target but there must be a limit for how hard. No matter how many rounds you fire in a Complex Action that should only be four 3 seconds (for a non-enhanced human.)

The biggest change is that there is no staging of the damage code for the attack, instead you gain extra D6 for your attack test and the target gains extra D6 for their dodge test due to your characters recoil.

Semi Automatic
As per standard SR3 rules

Burst Fire
Attacker gains 3D6 to their attack roll. Defender gains 3D6 –RC amount of D6 to their Dodge test.

Full Automatic
Attacker gains XD6 to their attack roll. X represents the amount of bullets fired. Defender gains Recoil –RC D6 to their dodge test.

Recoil & Recoil Compensation
Recoil makes it harder to hit ones target and Recoil Compensation makes it easer to aim and thus they cancel each other out.

Firing modifiers
Semi Automatic: Standard Dodge test
Burst Fire: Dodge test at +1 TN
Full Auto: Dodge test at +1TN/3 rounds fired.
Switching target +2TN

Attack test modifier
Semi Automatic: +0D6
Burst Fire: +3D6
Full Automatic: +XD6
Skill: +XD6
Combat Pool: +XD6

Dodge test modifiers
Combat Pool: +XD6
Recoil: +XD6
Recoil Compensation: -XD6


Attacking a single target
Example: A character firing a Vindicator Minigun against a single target with full recoil compensation would have the following attack profile. The defender (just below) would most likely be quite dead.

Attacker D6: 27 TN: 2 D6 / Attack: 27
Defender D6: 4 TN: 9

If the same character used a Vindicator Minigun WITHOUT any recoil compensation the situation would be quite different. The defender would gain the entire uncompensated recoil to his dodge test in ADDITION to his combat pool (since this is a heavy weapon it would be TWICE the bullets fired).

Attacker D6: 27 TN: 2 D6 / Attack: 27
Defender D6: 34 TN: 9

Attacking multiple targets
A Vindicator Minigun with fifteen shots and full recoil compensation against three equal targets the TN and D6’s would look like this. Attacker has a skill and pool of 6. For this example we split the dice evenly amongst the targets.

Attacker D6: 27 TN: 2 / 4 / 6 D6 / Attack: 9 / 9 / 9
Defender D6: 4 TN: 7
Defender D6: 4 TN: 7
Defender D6: 4 TN: 7

The same situation without any recoil compensation for the Minigun.

Attacker D6: 27 TN: 2 / 4 / 6 D6 / Attack: 9 / 9 / 9
Defender D6: 14 TN: 7
Defender D6: 14 TN: 7
Defender D6: 14 TN: 7

Posted by: Athenor Oct 29 2003, 03:56 PM

Just want to add in here:

I never said anything about walking the fire. In the full auto rules:

p. 115

Posted by: Lindt Oct 29 2003, 04:00 PM

Posted by: CoalHeart Oct 29 2003, 04:05 PM

Quoteing Athenor
"Now if you decide to "walk" the gun off of your target, and waste the bullets, so be it -- you are still using 15, even if not all 15 are hitting anything substantive."
End quote


With a Smartgun system you don't waste ammo when you walk fire. I don't know the page reference, but you don't have to fire if you don't have a target. or something like that. I smoked my breakfast so excuse me if I'm wrong.

Posted by: Athenor Oct 29 2003, 04:10 PM

If that applies to miniguns, then something is seriously wrong.. it's not like you can "pause" the barrel, or keep it from firing, like you can a full-auto gun (by stopping the firing mechanism for a split second)...

But I don't have my CC on me either.

Athenor

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 29 2003, 04:11 PM

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 29 2003, 04:16 PM

Posted by: easytohate Oct 30 2003, 06:49 AM

I'm not going to sit here and try to say that I am an expert in automatic weapons but I have wielded just about every model of M16 and 50 cal machine gun, along with a wide asortment of other weapons.

I can say that it is almost impossiable to hit a man size target more than 20 paces away when fireing almost any weapon on full auto. The first three bullets might hit, but then again thats what burst fire is for.
THe BFG that we are talking about though cannot be used on anything but full auto. Lets consider why weapons are even desinged to fire at full auto.

1. Surpression fire/intimidation
If you want to scare the derk out of an enemy let them come face to face with a vindicator. You might not be able to hit an enemy... but I can promise you that the target will not stand in place, nor are they very likely to close on your position. They are going to run, and hide. Which brings me to the next point

2. Stopping power
There are very few things that will protect someone who is faced with a vindicator. The weapon simply does too much damage too quickly. Weapons with fully auto are not always desinged with the applications of a runner in mind. A minigun like this is meant to kill the movement of formations of troops. Preventing them from advancing or even in most cases returning fire.
The logisitcs of the weapon are also desinged with this in mind, it is meant to be used from a hardend location by a trained operator, with adequete ammo stores in place. Most machine guns like this are crew serviced. Now the advents of the awakened world probably don't require this it is still something to keep in mind.

3. Colateral damage
Bullets don't just stop existing just because they don't hit the target. Those rounds will move, and will continue to move until they come in contact with something. Be it the car, the enemy hideing behind the car, the wall, or the family of four behind the wall.
This comes into factor when (provided you have an interesting or playful GM) you fail to hit the initail target, but instead destroy the wall behind them, forcing a rain of masonry and plasteel down on them.

The vindicator is also known by name by every shadowrunner. They know what it is and what it is capeable of under the right circumstances. The threat of the vindicator is as powerful as one of it's bullets. The same can be said about other high profile weapons.

Keep in mind the foundation of attack
Choose your target
Your target determines your weapon
Your weapon determines your motion/action

This applies in every situation from unarmed combat to the deployment of high explosives.
If the target is the eyes, then taking the head will meet your goal... but do you have to take the head?
But then these are just my ideas, how I play the game, or at least how I think about it.

Posted by: TheScamp Oct 30 2003, 07:13 AM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 01:54 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 02:06 PM

I'd imagine that with a high volume-of-fire weapon it'd be somewhat easier to hit at long range due to spread, though if you hit the number of bullets hitting will be, as you say, lower.
Or that could just be the misperception of someone who has never fired anything larger than a pistol.

~J

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 02:17 PM

You're right, and this is partly why I ranted about SR suppressive fire getting nowhere near the actual damage caused with really high volume-of-fire weapons (like miniguns) earlier in this thread.

Even without aiming specifically at it but the area around it, you'd score many, many hits on a man sized target with a minigun, let alone if you really do aim at the target. At long ranges, the latter is not really possible, and you're stuck with attacking just area targets; but a character standing in the area target of a minigun would still get riddled, several hundred meters away.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 04:00 PM

Houserule time... does the following sound reasonable?
Minigun still takes one turn to spin up, afterwards it must be fired at a rate of 200 rounds/turn, divided up evenly amongst all of the initiative passes of a character. All normal recoil modifiers apply, and if used by a character they must make a knockdown test against a TN equal to 1/2 modified recoil (even if used for area denial). Proper mounting (GM discretion as to how much work this is, but it should be immobile for the duration) will prevent the knockdown test.
On the one hand, if you try to point it at someone it should still turn them into swiss cheese, but with rules like this no one is ever going to actually try to aim it. It also makes the weapon a lot less likely to be used by runners, as the minimum cost of firing this weapon once is ¥400 (less street index, but still).
Thoughts?

~J

edit: Or I might just require that firing this consumes all Complex Actions, leaving the character open to make Free Actions but nothing else for the remainder of the turn.

edit^2: I might also increase the power of the round with respect to hardened armor by 1 for every 50 rounds, or possibly for every 40.

Posted by: Raiko Oct 30 2003, 05:36 PM

This is how we houserule autofire & miniguns.

Autofire

1. All autofire uses the supressive fire rules.

2. Max rnds/metre is shooters skill + recoil compensation.
eg UCAS Army Grunt with assault rifles 5 firing M23 (RC 3 iirc) can concentrate a maximum of 8 rnds/m

3. This Number is divided by 2 if the weapon has +2/rnd recoil or by 3 if the weapon has +3/rnd recoil.
eg UCAS Army Grunt with Heavy Weapons 4 firing a Bipod mounted MMG (RC 2) gets (4+2)/2 = 3 rnds/metre.

4. The concentration is per metre at short range, per 2m at medium range, per 3m at long range, and per 4m at extreme range.

5. When making the dodge test against the suppressive fire, each success lets you dodge one of the bullets. No successes means that all the bullets in that metre hit.
eg If the Grunt with the M23 is concentrating his fire on you at short range, you need 8 successes to dodge completely, if you get 3 successes you get hit by 5 bullets for 13S base damage.

6. If you're using tracer rounds the tn to stage damage up is reduced by 1 to 5.

Vindicator Minigun

1. Since it's a LMG scale minigun it's recoil mod should IMO be +1/rnd not +2, but...

2. As minigun ROF in Shadowrun is far too low, instead of 15 shots they now fire a fixed 15 "3 rnd groups."
Each of these "groups" is treated as a separate +2 recoil shot for 9D damage if using tracer/regular ammo or 10D if using regular.

So for example, the UCAS Army Grunts above with heavy weapons 4 firing a Vindicator from a Helicopter door mount (RC 6) could concentrate (4+6)/2=5 "3 rnd groups" per metre at short range.

A troll street-sami with 12 points of recoil comp and skill 6 would get (6+12)/2= 9 "groups"/metre.

Changing miniguns in this way increases their ROF to 900rpm per action which seems more reasonable.

And as it's difficult to dodge all the bullets with short & medium range autofire everybody tends to duck for cover very quickly (especially if they hear minigun barrels start to spin )

What do think.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 05:59 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 06:23 PM

Sorry, I'd forgotten the Suppressive Fire rules didn't account for staging. After CSSE I'll get to working on a way to stage it.
Either that or I might just give miniguns their own initiative, always 40, 50 rounds/pass. 7S damage ought to be enough if it's done 4 times every 3 seconds.
Well, except for trolls... well, I'll post some better thought-out rules later.

~J

Posted by: easytohate Oct 30 2003, 06:30 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2003, 06:34 PM

It may not have horrible shake-the-airplane-apart recoil, but it's still launching quite a bit of mass forwards at high speeds, which means it's going to get pushed back. Do that in the air at too low a speed and you've got problems.

~J

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 06:43 PM

I use a system where the amount of rounds in a meter reduces the TN to hit with suppressive fire, as well as adding damage. Currently, suppressive fire is declared in 2 meter areas, but I think 1 meter/range category (like Raiko put it) might be better. I think it was every 10 rounds in the char's 2 meter area that lowered the TN by 1, and every 15 that added 1 round for damage purposes. However, every dodge success (TN 4) reduces the amount of potential rounds by 4. Using Meter/Category areas, that should probably be 3 potential hits in char's meter for TN reduction and 5 for extra damage round.

UCAS Army Grunt fires his Vindicator Minigun at full auto (200/CT, 4000rpm) at a bush where he thinks an enemy might be lurking, 500 meters away. That's extreme range, thus the 50 rounds per meter. The unlucky Joe OpFor rolls his 5 CP dice vs TN 4, getting 3 successes, bringing the amount of potential hits down to just 38. UCAS AG now rolls his Gunnery skill (4) against a TN of 6 (the base TN for extreme range suppressive fire in my games) - 12 (38/3 = 12.6666) = 2, getting 4 successes.

Joe OpFor is thus taking 15D+1 damage; 7S (base damage of the Vindicator with FMJ rounds at extreme ranges in my games), 8 rounds (1 + 38/5 = 8.6). Good luck with that.

The A-10 carries 1100 ready rounds, ~300 gram projectiles each, 1067m/sec, 320.1 kgm/s momentum each, 65 per second (3900rpm), for a thrust of 20806.5 Newtons. Assuming a combat weight of 20,000kg, that's 1m/s^2 acceleration backwards, or one tenth of the gravitational pull. Doesn't seem like something that will make the plane stall. But, again, physics work in mysterious ways.

However, put that on a TROLL and you've got a ~900kg creature (225kg + 300kg (GAU-8 ) + ~375kg (half the weight of the 1100 rounds, or the average over the period of shooting)) being pushed back at 23m/s^2, or twice the gravitational pull, for a duration of 17 seconds.

Or think of a KLEINBUS...

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 30 2003, 06:51 PM

CC pg. 26

Posted by: Siege Oct 30 2003, 06:53 PM

Yeah, but the second you crank down on the trigger, the muzzle flashes and the rain of spent ammo will be equally evident.

Besides, allowing for ambient sounds the whirrr may not be that easy to detect.

-Siege

Posted by: Buzzed Oct 30 2003, 06:59 PM

Ignore this post.

Posted by: Raiko Oct 30 2003, 07:22 PM

CC Page 107 (Suppressive Fire):

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2003, 07:27 PM

Whoops, sorry about that success thingy. But I guess it shouldn't shouldn't surprise me that that bit TOO is just a house rule of mine...

Yeah, wasted rounds rock

Posted by: TheScamp Oct 30 2003, 11:58 PM

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 31 2003, 12:20 AM

Two engines at 9,000 lbs each are together less than one counterforce at 19,000.
So, slow the rate of fire or only apply it for short portions of a strafe.

Not hard to work around, but a real problem for the novice.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 31 2003, 09:05 AM

Posted by: TheScamp Oct 31 2003, 01:04 PM

http://www.periscope1.com/demo/weapons/artguns/airguns/w0003596.html

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 31 2003, 01:21 PM

It also says that at 4200rpm, the average recoil force is 9,000lbs (40,000N, not THAT different from what I got, considering that the round weights were also off by up to 50%). That's the actual force that the engines will have to work against, when considering acceleration. Currently, the A-10 GAU-8s are set to 3900rpm, so that force will go down to ~8,360lbs (37,000N, not a significant drop but worth mentioning). That's well under a half of the thrust of the engines.

Now, if the A-10 opened up with the GAU-8 while flying straight up, or when flying very slow (engine malfunction, or simply having the engines powered down), that might cause problems. In the kind of situation where the weapon is supposed to be used, in a dive, the recoil will certainly not stall the plane.

Oh, and thanks for the nice info packet on the GAU-8.

PS. What is it with the "kilogram" force figures you can see on US sites? The rest of the world has NEWTONs (1kgm/s^2) to measure force with. If these guys can't be bothered to do the conversion to a reasonable unit, they might as well not do it at all.

PPS. Yes, I know that kilogram-force is an actual unit of force, but I at least have never seen it used anywhere but on american sites as "metrifications" of their units.

Posted by: TheScamp Oct 31 2003, 01:58 PM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 31 2003, 02:15 PM

Oh, right, so you did. So we agree completely. Wow. That's a rare outcome of discussions like these.

Posted by: TheScamp Oct 31 2003, 08:34 PM

Do we get to snuggle now?

Posted by: ialdabaoth Oct 31 2003, 08:40 PM

How absurd and unbalancing would this house rule be:

Burst-fire and Autofire (p.115, SR3; p.103, CC)
Rather than staging up the Power and Damage Level of an attack, a burst adds a number of dice equal to the number of bullets being fired to the attack test. Thus, a 3-round burst would add 3 dice to the attack test, while a 15-round burst would add 15 dice to the attack test. This makes bursts much harder to dodge, and somewhat easier to hit with ‘spray and pray’ tactics, without having to compute and compare different attack Powers for armor and barriers. Successes from these dice stage damage up normally, and must be overcome by any Dodge test for the target to completely avoid damage.

Posted by: TheScamp Oct 31 2003, 10:15 PM

It's not a bad idea, but how about an extra die every 2 shots or something? 1 per seems a little excessive to me.

Posted by: ialdabaoth Nov 1 2003, 08:02 PM

Well, it's 1 die per shot, and +1 (or even +2) TN per shot, so it does more-or-less even out. It makes dodging somewhat harder (since there's a chance of more attack successes), but resisting somewhat easier (since the attack's Power isn't increased, and the damage is only staged up by successes).

Posted by: Lilt Nov 1 2003, 08:22 PM

... and then it'd still be nigh impossible to hit with even 1 shot from the vindicator.