Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Urban Brawl

Posted by: 6thDragon Jan 3 2007, 01:39 AM

I was reading through the rules for Urban Brawl and I noticed it mentioned about criminals playing. I was wondering how this would work. Would your average criminal be given a choice or would Lonestar just contract the criminal out to a UB team against their will? I think it would be reasonable for them to be given a choice about it. I think if given a choice between having any illegal cyber removed or playing UB the average person would choose to play UB. I also wonder if they are given a choice to play, what other incentives would they be given? Would they stay in a sort of halfway house where they train for games and travel to the games? Would they be able to earn any money from playing? I think it would make sense for criminals to play just for a chance at greatness expecting to earn a nice contract with a team as a professional player if they survive until their sentence is over. Has anyone added things like this in their game? I was thinking of having a Mr. J hire the team in my next game session to break a convicted criminal out that chose to play UB instead of serving his time in jail.

Posted by: OneTrikPony Jan 3 2007, 02:09 AM

Found an interesting article about prison rodeo and posted it in this http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=15805&hl=

Basicly the prisoners participated in the rodeo for pride and a change of pace from dayly prison life.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 3 2007, 02:32 AM

I don't know if it says anywhere for sure, but I figure they usually have a choice, probably for reduced sentence. I could see some of the serious crazies wanting to brawl to alleviate boredom, or solitary confinement. But although brawl is designed to allow it, killing isn't exaclty encouraged. So who knows what the league would require. I doubt that as many criminals would want "professionals" shooting at them as you may have for something like riding a bull though.

Posted by: ChicagosFinest Jan 3 2007, 03:11 AM

Does the "Longest Yard" ring a bell? Prison Leauges Baby!

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Jan 3 2007, 03:22 AM

I was actually thinking about that as I put in that post. My favorite part of that movie (the newest version) was the Behind the Scenes stuff going over all the crap they had to go through to feed all those huge guys. Made me hungry.

Deifference is, you don't (generally) get shot it while playing prison football. Especially with an LMG.

Posted by: ChicagosFinest Jan 3 2007, 03:00 PM

Which movie was it Die Harder or Lethal weapon that had the guy on the football field pull out a gun and start smoking people? It reminded me of SR in a couple ways.

Posted by: Faelan Jan 3 2007, 03:15 PM

Last Boyscout

Posted by: ChicagosFinest Jan 3 2007, 05:14 PM

Thanks

Posted by: Aaron Jan 4 2007, 09:20 AM

I figure that in 2070, with the availability of gel rounds, Urban Brawl games can be a lot less deadly. Plus you get the extra spectacle of watching people get knocked over by gel rounds.

The rest of this post is a bit of a rant, but at least I offer an alternative, so it's not just bitching. Skip it if you like.

[ Spoiler ]

Of course, I actually dislike Urban Brawl as it's written. I mean, games with guns and a motorcycle are cool, sure, but they wouldn't really be such a great spectacle, especially in the United States. In most spectator sports, there is a lot of movement and, well, spectacle: American football players flying through the air, rest-of-the-world football players maneuvering around one another, basketball players leaping and dunking, hockey players gliding all over the ice.

As it's written, Urban Brawl is a game where each team dashes for cover, and then has part of their team maneuver from cover to cover, until they can find and pin down the opponent. It's a game that would require heavy editing to be interesting. Don't just take my word for it, either. Do a search on YouTube for paintball tournaments. Almost all of them have some sort of energetic techno music over them to make them more interesting, and all of them have been time-compressed, with the boring parts removed. Even the face-shot montages are pretty dull.

Additionally, most Urban Brawl players in the fluff are described as athletic, which is unnecessary for urban warfare. The first special forces guy I met was healthy, sure, but shorter than me (which is saying something) and kinda scrawny; I wouldn't field him on an American football team. The other two I've met are big, sure, but not up to professional athlete standards, even when they were still serving. I mention these men on the assumption that the U.S. wants its Special Forces in top shape for their mission.

In most of my games, Urban Brawl is something different. Most sports were started in a neighborhood of some sort, just a few people passing the time with a new game they'd invented. So I came up with a game that could have started in the Barrens (pick your fave) among Ork and Troll children. They're poor, but they have room to play, so the game would involve a field (which could be a street, a couple of back yards, whatever), and not require any equipment, so no ball.

The rules would also be relatively simple as well. There are two teams, and they both start in a line in the middle of the field. The line of play (let's call it) has one team on either side of it, one of which is on offense, one on defense. The offensive team tries to get one player across the end line of the field (marked off by whatever is handy). Players who get knocked down are down for the rest of the play. If the team does not make it, the new line of play is set at the offensive player that got the farthest, and the offensive and defensive roles switch. If it makes it, it scores a point, and the other team starts its offensive turn at the center line. First to three wins, but a team has to win by two.

At some point, some clever marketing person who likes sports finds out about the game, and starts a league. With its urban origins, it's the perfect down-home game for the megaplexes. With its simple objective, it can be marketed to a wider fan base. With the great possibilities of each play (in that anybody could be the guy they're trying to push through to the end line), it's visually interesting. With its action-pause-action play style, it's perfect for commercials. And with it's win condition, the teams play against one another to the end, rather than just running out the clock, so the tension of the game keeps until the very end.

The league, of course, would have more specific rules. Number of players per side (I was thinking 12-15, myself), number of players on a team, rules for field dimensions, rules for how many people can be close to the line of play at the start of a play, a rule where each play is started by the referees, rules for safer tackling, rules for defining when a player is down, etc. (I've got some rules bopping around in my head, I should probably write them down at some point) . Plus, players would have to be a lot more athletic than their gun-toting alternate-dimension counterparts.

Posted by: Trigger Jan 4 2007, 09:35 AM

I like that idea Aaron, sounds like a viable concpet for a sports game. I may end up using that in a home game or something.

Posted by: Aaron Jan 4 2007, 09:42 AM

QUOTE (Trigger)

I like that idea Aaron, sounds like a viable concpet for a sports game. I may end up using that in a home game or something.

Thanks. I've been wanting to get a bunch of people and try it out, so see how many people would be good and how big the field should be. Of course, a lot of people would find it too rough (Flag Urban Brawl?). I thought of using statistics from American Football (around 3-yards per run play across the NFL), but it occurred to me that the run play in amefuto is focused on the ball, not spread across the whole team, and you're not allowed to take out (tackle) defensive players, so, back to playtesting.

So, anybody want to try this game? If I get thirty people who want to try it at Gen Con 2007, I'll try to get the dome ...

Posted by: BlacKat Jan 4 2007, 03:32 PM

I kind of figured the way they made Urban Brawl a watchable sport was to run it like the show in "Running Man." Basically check in on the field for full out shoot outs and exceptional moments but have the rest of the show center around something else.

BlacKat

Posted by: ornot Jan 4 2007, 03:49 PM

I shouldn't have thought that Urban Brawl would have to be as dull as watching paintballs dry. It all depends on how much cover you want to allow and how large the play area is. Actually the most exciting game of paintball I ever played had both teams squeezed into a long thin area with less cover than players. Very hectic, although it may have been less fun to watch.

As for your special forces guys, bear in mind that endurance is a lot more important for a soldier, who might have to run for miles, carrying a bunch of equipment on very little sleep. Conversely you have american football players who have to sprint and/or knock down their opponents, but get frequent rests both between downs and when possession changes.

Urban brawl players (as its written) wouldn't need as much endurance as a special forces guy, and extra bulk would allow them to carry bigger weapons, but they would still need to have more stamina than an american football player as the games would last longer, with no guaranteed time outs.

I do agree that urban brawl (as written) would be the kind of thing where you see the highlights and maybe follow particular players around during the games when they're being shot at. Rather like televised golf, perhaps.

Posted by: Banaticus Jan 4 2007, 04:05 PM

I imagine Urban Combat would be incredibly exciting to watch when you can jack in and literally see what the players are seeing, hear what they're hearing, feel the adrenaline course through your body as they fight it out. And, if one person is ever boring, then you flip over to the person getting some action in. Sure, the action is periodically interrupted for a minute while a can of Jolt Cola dances in front of your eyes, but that's just the price you have to pay to be able to watch an enjoyable game like Urban Brawl.

Posted by: ornot Jan 4 2007, 04:12 PM

QUOTE (Banaticus)

That would require all the players to have simrigs installed, but meh... I guess.

Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 4 2007, 04:18 PM

Even without simsense, the POV will be from the Players. Which is very different then the Spectator view of today.

So Urban Brawl may in fact be horrible to watch, but incredibly fun to be in, and you -can- be in it, without the downside of feeling the pain of bullets ripping through your flesh!

Posted by: DireRadiant Jan 4 2007, 04:19 PM

Just like Live Chess wasn't as intersting to watch as to participate in.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 4 2007, 04:21 PM

Simrigs can be worn instead of implanted. No essence cost.

Posted by: imperialus Jan 4 2007, 04:49 PM

It's been a bloody long time since I've read Shadowbeat or whatever book Urban Brawl first appeared in but IIRC it's played across several city blocks and there are considerable penalties that discourage people from simply ducking into cover and staying there.

I also seem to remember that there is a non lethal league out there but it's no where near as popular as the real version. One thing I do see though is perhaps using special bullets that have less powder in them to lower their lethality -2 to the damage code + 2 AP seems appropriate. They'll still put holes in people but those wounds would be less likely to kill a player outright.

Personally I would see Combat Biking as more popular than Urban Brawl just because it is much more fast paced.

Posted by: Aaron Jan 4 2007, 07:50 PM

QUOTE (imperialus)

Personally I would see Combat Biking as more popular than Urban Brawl just because it is much more fast paced.

Oo ... good point. Plus, there are a lot of different formats the games could be in: jousting, derby, brawl, racing. Especially if you put minimum speed limiters in the bikes, so they don't stop until they're knocked over.

Posted by: imperialus Jan 4 2007, 08:13 PM

The other major violent "sport" that I think would get a lot of viewers is coverage of the Desert Wars. Since the wars are usually pretty low key I'd see them as more crazy pay per view extravaganzas where a months worth of combat is distilled down into a 2 hour long gore fest intersperced with soldiers talking to the cameras and the like that you pay 40 or 50 to watch. Might be an interesting way to add flavor to an otherwise mundane meet at a bar if it is packed with rowdy people bellowing at giant trid sets because it's DW PPV night.

Posted by: 6thDragon Jan 6 2007, 06:07 PM

Yeah, Urban brawl would be unrealistic prospect for a spectator sport. It would be difficult or impossible to watch live, and would required extreme amounts of editing when you consider that each team needs to play offense and defense at the same time. There would be two focal points for the action. Then consider the multiple angles for the camera shots. Reading the rules they do include harsh penalties for delaying the game (insufficient offense) which would ensure the game does not get bogged down from someone under fire. It even includes penalties if the ball is dropped and not recovered fast enough. Personally I think the best strategy would simply to put the blaster to cover the goal area in a defensive position. You wouldn't see a lot of scoring then until the offense could manage to suppress the blaster long enough to score.

Posted by: djinni Jan 7 2007, 12:10 AM

QUOTE (6thDragon)

Yeah, Urban brawl would be unrealistic prospect for a spectator sport.

remember the UFC? you never saw the fights that won the tournament. because they were the most boring. you saw the short fights that didn't go to the ground.

maybe they have a bunch of games going on at once you can watch them live because of commercials and interviews etc...

but they only show you the "Action" scenes either live or "while the commercials were going on we recorded this action <playback>"

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 7 2007, 12:24 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen, I http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=15981.

It's faster than Urban Brawl. It's furiouser. It's meaner and rougher. It may not have blood, but it compensates by having explosions.

Ladies and Gentlemen, rig your 'mechs!

Posted by: WhiskeyMac Jan 13 2007, 04:43 AM

What ever happened to the Battletech Mech fights? There was a blurb about them in one of the official books or a netbook somewhere, I think. I thought that sounded cool because the players got into a huge cocoon in a room and fought with their huge mechs out in a physical arena or even over a VR arena.

Posted by: ShadowDragon8685 Jan 13 2007, 09:45 AM

QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)

I think you've confused http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battletech.

Posted by: WhiskeyMac Jan 13 2007, 11:00 AM

Since it was owned by the same company at the same time I'm pretty sure it was in one of the official SHADOWRUN books. Somewhere in a mall description or something about a Battletech VR Arena game in the mention of the arcade. It might have been a netbook release though. I'd have to check my pdfs. I'm not that stupid to confuse Shadowrun and Battletech though.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 13 2007, 11:03 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

I think you've confused Shadowrun with Battletech.

No, he hasn't. I remember that it was mentioned in one of the first edition books ... probably Seattle or Sprawl Sites.

Posted by: WhiskeyMac Jan 14 2007, 01:13 AM

I found it! Seattle Sourcebook 1st Edition Pg. 38 in the description of the Aurora Village. "The "Wolves of the Federated Commonwealth", winners of the last Battle-Mech regional tourney, are frequent visitors to the BattleTech Arena on the fourth floor of the mall." However, I haven't been able to find a mention of it in New Seattle yet. So, has it been removed from canon now?

Posted by: Fortune Jan 14 2007, 01:30 AM

QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)

So, has it been removed from canon now?

No, it just hasn't been mentioned again.

Posted by: SL James Jan 14 2007, 01:51 AM

The coolest part is that the system referred to in the Seattle SB was real, and located in (at least) one Chicago-area mall.

However, like Fortune said, they haven't been mentioned since and probably won't be again. Seeing as though somehow people... Seeing as though it doesn't fit with the SR4 worldview.

Posted by: Aaron Jan 15 2007, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (SL James)

The coolest part is that the system referred to in the Seattle SB was real, and located in (at least) one Chicago-area mall.

Incidentally, those pods still exist. They're living (and working) in Madison, WI.

Posted by: ChicagosFinest Jan 16 2007, 02:55 PM

Oh so they are archade games??

Posted by: Fortune Jan 16 2007, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (ChicagosFinest)

Oh so they are archade games??

They are indeed. Of course, in 2050, they would be just a little more advanced than the ones we have today.

Posted by: ChicagosFinest Jan 16 2007, 03:02 PM

Madison here I come. If I get a chance to go I will post picture links of what it looks like, maybe find an old school reveiw too.