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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ A few question about the Ares Redline

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 07:38 PM

I want one of my characters to acquire an Ares Redline, I know it might be munchie in your game but our games are different.

Any way I was thinking (dangerous) now I don't know a lot about lasers and the physics behind them. How much noise and light do you think the Redline would make. The character I am playing is a cat burglar style guy and a beginning face. He has a intense love with high tech junk, and keeping his stealth high.

My point being is the laser really isn't visible on the human eye level, it may show up on the IR or UV not sure which, but how long will it be there. The laser isn't going to be on for all that length of time, so how perceptable will the beam be. I know it is dangerous trying to apply real world physics to SR but I like to be real in our games. Also, how much noise will it make? Will it cook the air and make a sizzle noise, and how much sizzle will it make when it hits the target? Just curious as to how stealthy this laser will be. As far as my knowledge about lasers go, I don't think it will be very perceptable in either areas. First of all the light in the laser isn't perceptable unless a lot of particles are in the area, and the only noise I think would come out of it would be the click of the trigger and maybe the sizzle of human flesh as the target hits the ground. But that is just me I want it to be ultra stealthy, when in reality it might be really noticable. I just don't think the Redline or MP III and Firelance for that much would be very perceptable, it is not like this is a G.I. Joe cartoon, I mean my laser isn't going to be red while the Lone Star will be shooting blue lasers.

Posted by: Shadow Oct 29 2003, 08:00 PM

I think the redline lasers are tagged red for safety. In other words they purposely make them visible. As for noise, there would be no need for a trigger, just a pressure plate to fire it. There would be the discharge of the capacitor, the sizzle.

Technically, your target would be hit before you ever saw the beam of light. It would go like this.

Pull the trigger
Target is hit
Beam of light shoots out.

It has to do with the fact that a laser moves at the speed of light. And your brain does not.

Posted by: nezumi Oct 29 2003, 08:03 PM

First point, why is a cat burglar running around with a laser?? It seems totally unnecessary. No self respecting cat burglar packs 15lbs of heat (because that means he obviously isn't a very good cat burglar).

That said... from what I understand, lasers shoot visible light. Unless it's going through something that'll defract the light (fog or lots of dust) no one would see it unless he or she were looking straight into the beam (in which case, the person wouldn't see it for want of an eyeball).

Would it show up on UV or IR? I don't believe so. UV and IR are still both electromagnetic radiation, and the point of the laser is all of the radiation is going in one direction, not bouncing around (plus, the laser blocks all but a certain range of wavelengths from leaving the 'muzzle'). Would you see the heat left by the trail? Maybe, but not for very long at all, and it would be so small that unless you were looking for it, you probably wouldn't notice.

Would it make noise? In fog I guess it would make noise, as water particles are suddenly accelerated. I don't believe that normal air would, especially with a laser pistol of low power. I would assume that the firing mechanism would make some sort of noise, but it's really not necessary that it does. That's really up to GM's call. Personally, i'd set it to about the same amount of noise as a suppressed pistol.

Posted by: Req Oct 29 2003, 08:19 PM

Lasers don't necessarily lase in the visible light range. IR lasers, x-ray, even microwave radiation can be used. Most of the cutting/burning lasers around now are IR. In fact any electromagnetic radiation can be used if you can find an appropriate material to lase at that frequency.

Also it's not that the laser "blocks" certain wavelengths from leaving the "muzzle," but that the laser only generates a very specific wavelength (or two) of energy and projects it as a coherent beam. The ion laser in the high-speed cell sorter I operate projects only 488nm (visible blue) and UV, with the lion's share of the energy coming out as visible, but that's just because of the composition of the gas in the plasma tube. A different gas (or solid-state material or whatever) would produce a different wavelength.

Visible or not, you wouldn't see a "beam" except if there was a lot of crap in the air, dust or smoke or fog or whatever. I'd be surprised if there was any noise at all other than the sizzling/burning/whatever that happened to the target. Even if you did I presume the Redline is supposed to be a pulse laser, triggering a beam for a tiny fraction of a second, so it might not be the sort of thing you'd notice anyway.

Posted by: TheOneRonin Oct 29 2003, 08:42 PM

Here's some info I've gathered on laster weapons out on the web. YMMV.

While being a very effective weapon under optimal conditions, the laser drops in effectiveness under adverse conditions. Optimal conditions for a laser are conditions not found within an atmosphere. Environmental factors including particles in the air, humidity, and other common occurrences, when combined, render the laser as a weapon best suited for use in outer space. Particulate matter in the air tends to scatter the beam, reducing the amount of energy that arrives at the target location; this lowers the amount of damage done to the target (no duh). Humidity in the air poses another problem for the use of lasers in an atmosphere. At the front shock-cone (the point where the laser is moving through the air), the temperature is high enough that it can no longer hold humidity and the rapid cooling of the air after the beam has passed through, result in an interesting phenomenon. This causes the humidity in the wake of the laser to condense into a fine line of mist in the shape of the beam in the air for approximately 2-6 seconds afterwards. This is known as a DEW (Directed Energy Weapon) Line, and provides everyone in the area with a straight line between the target and the firing unit.

And...

Energy Weapons: In general, with any weapon powerful enough to vaporize armor and flesh, you end up vaporizing a path through the air as well. There will almost always be a loud crackling sound, and in many cases a localized sonic concussion as the air collapses on the vacuum created by the energy beam/path. Furthermore, the heat trail left behind would be visible to sensitive thermo-imaging optics, possibly giving away the source of the beam.

Lasers: Even a 50 watt laser, like the type used in large scale light shows, starts to vaporize particle in the air if the beam is left stationary for more than a second. Real life weapon grade lasers are actually quite loud. Since most are designed for short duration/pulse, there is a loud "crack" every time weapon is fired as the air is vaporized in a path to the target.

This is not the end-all of info on Laser weapons. However, it should give you some points of reference when dealing with them in SR. If you want more info, use the web, that's what it's there for.

I use the info above in my SR games because Fanpro has remained very quiet on how it's laser weapons work/function.

Posted by: TheOneRonin Oct 29 2003, 08:44 PM

Oh, and if your catburglar wants to be stealthy, a taser is a MUCH better option. IIRC, you don't even need a permit to carry one of those around. That's even better than a suppressed Ares Predator.

Posted by: durthang Oct 29 2003, 08:49 PM

While the Redline might not make alot of noise, don't you think your target screaming would attract some attention?

I'd suggest a Narcojet pistol if you want to be stealthy. I believe that they are considered silenced. Better yet, most GMs will let you get away with the target doing little more than groan when they go down, just like the movies.

Another option is tranq patches.

Posted by: Ed_209a Oct 29 2003, 08:52 PM

Practical laser weapons require extremely high energy levels, with extremely low durations. The beam duration will probably only be a few milliseconds.

That intensity will probably be enough to ionize the air it passes through, giving it a dim glow. It wouldn't be very visible in daylight, but would be visible at night.

Posted by: nezumi Oct 29 2003, 09:07 PM

Question for Ronin... which site did you get that off of? I don't claim to be an expert in lasers, however the idea of vaporizing vapor (turning gas to gas) seems rather redundant and repetitive, and makes me question the entire article.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 09:12 PM

First thanks for your replys, But second I never said he was going to carry the weapon with him on jobs, he has a narcoject pistol for that, or just running. It is a mind set that people live in, he has to sell his spoils and do other dangerous things in the field, the SR world is not very nice. His idea is it is a really cool weapon and it should be stealthy, like a 9mm with a silencer but more cooler.

And all the web sites I found about lasers talk about their tech specs, most people could give a rats ass weither it makes noise when it is fired.

I don't get why a vapor trial would hang around for 2 to 6 minutes though. Wouldn't the wind move it away, unless it is like what jets leave behind, but that would lead to no one wanting to use lasers on the first place, that is why they made smokeless powder for guns, so you can see what you need to for targeting. I have never personally seen a laser fired at White Sands or Livermore labs, but I have seen some footage, and nothing like a vapor trail was left, I heard some noise but how much was filtered I don't know. A heat trial would be the same way, 480 nm wide for a billionth of a second will heat the air but will it heat the air enough for it to be noticed minutes later? or long enough for a guy using thermo to see it righ away and start to think? Not to mention the laser has a better chance of killing a guy at close range any way, it uses half impact at 12M, which is pretty close to killing any body you meet in causual business.

As for the target screaming, hell lets get rid of silencers also. Stealthy means you do not want to draw a lot of attention, if you shot someone they die not much noise. Same goes for silencers, if tap a guy in the head he dies no scream, don't use a silencer tap a guy in the hea he dies no scream but now you have a pistol report wafting through the air. That is what a laser would do. If you shot a guy with a narco ject and he doesn't pass out don't you with him shooting at you with his gun and scraming will dra a lot of attention? or as you sneak up to stick a patch on his bare flesh, he turns and shots you now you are screaming and he is shooting you agian will draw a lot of attention?

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 29 2003, 09:16 PM

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/10/29/laser.cannon.ap/index.html

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 09:20 PM

Nice story but how does this relate to the topic? Is there a clip that shows a vapor trial or how loud it is?

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 29 2003, 09:25 PM

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/asat/miracl.htm (talking in links is fun)

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 09:27 PM

That is a lot of reading I'll get to it later. In fact I may have read it already I have read a lot of the stuff off of that site.

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 29 2003, 09:35 PM

http://members.rogers.com/biglasers/continuous/weapons.html

excerpt: "Such a laser will sound and, to some extent, look like a jet engine"

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 09:37 PM

I just remembered the other reasons I want it. One it has no shell casings, no evidence to pick up. Two no bullet, not evidence for the medical exaiminer to find, and thirdly, no residue on your hands or clothes, so the police can't tell if you fired a laser lately. The third reason may only be good for a while until the police get a lot of laser muders and develope a test for it. But the possible stealth aspect and the lack of evidence it leaves behind are big sellers, the ability to deal death well is another big seller, but it being a security weapon with all the penalties attached and 75,000 multiplyed by the SI which is 3 I think price tag is not good

Posted by: Req Oct 29 2003, 09:48 PM

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)

multiplyed by the SI which is 3 I think price tag is not good

...some of which is countered by the fact that there's probably a much smaller list of people who have laser pistols out there in the world, so less people for the Star to chase down when the laser murders start popping up. One of the reasons people use generic guns rather than custom ones when they're assassinating folks.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 09:51 PM

How do all these relate to the Red Line? I mean all these are huge freakin' weapon systems, how do I relate this to a pistol? A laser the size of a bus, that sounds like a jet, is equal to a laser the size of a pistol sounds like a bee flying? Not to cut anyone down but I have seen a lot of people talk out of their ass, does anyone have laser experience here, I know some of you here do you have admitted it before. What is the duration of the sound? Does it sound like a jet for the millionth of a second it is fired or does it linger and sound like a jet flying away from you? With all these side effects that you guys have proposed why would anyone develope a man portable laser or hand held laser weapon? The size of the weapon and energy it consumes alone is enough of a deterent, but if it has so much noise, vapor trial and othe things you guys have described why do it? The range aspect is nice if you are in space but on earth the range is dropping fast because of the environment, so that can't be a real addition. The armor piercing ability? With smart weapons that are getting even smarter why keep developing lasers?

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 10:05 PM

QUOTE (Req)

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Oct 29 2003, 01:37 PM)

multiplyed by the SI which is 3 I think price tag is not good

I thought of that also but what list is Lone Star going off of? I don't plan on advertising I own a laser or even registering it. In fact chances are I'll be stealing it right out of Ares' warehouse. Really I don't plan on killing anyone, it is more of a show piece, sort of like owning a really big hand gun, I have seen little ladies with .45's and .50's they maybe able to fire it but if they miss the first time chances are they are done as the assailent takes it from them and beats them with it, if he doesn't crapp himself. If I have to bust it out, hopefully I can bluff my way out of the situation, betting most people have never seen one and fall for the Holy Sh*t that is laser effect. My character can't even through a punch let alone shoot a weapon, but he can write software, open a security door (maglock and tumbler) and talk his way out of most situations, but when the drek hits the fan I can run like lightning. In fact two weeks ago was the first time he was shot. Usually he knows when to get lost, but I was sniped. And if they do find you with one they will have a hell of a time proving you did it with out that evidence. My character has plenty of friends and a lot that are upright citizens that like him and think he is a good boy that may lend an aliby. It is good to carry the bags of the little old lady next door or fixing the Trideo for the Urban Brawl fan next door when he spilled some soycaff in it. Making sure your neighbors are taken care of goes along way.

Posted by: nezumi Oct 29 2003, 10:21 PM

Firstly, I'd go with what Reg said waaay back when. It looks like he has practical experience on the scale you're talking about.

Secondly, in regards of legality, no, the Star would not be able to pin laser attacks on you as long as they don't know you have a laser weapon. That said, lasers are few and far between, and carefully watched. They will have a tally of all of the laser attacks in the area and they probably can't tell very much between them (no ballistics testing to speak of). If they EVER connect you with a laser (even if its as vague as getting a picture of you doing something suspicious in a bank and someone that night is shot with a laser there), they will connect you with that cime (because it sucks to be in the shadows) and then with every laser attack that's happened in the past year. If you start flashing it around only for its intimidation factor, they'll get on you even faster.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 10:29 PM

I agree nezumi, I don't plan on using it really that much, it is still just I have a laser thing. Doesn't one of your characters have a minigun in the closet just so you can say a have a minigun? Or is it just me?

Posted by: Phasma Felis Oct 29 2003, 10:49 PM

QUOTE

I don't claim to be an expert in lasers, however the idea of vaporizing vapor (turning gas to gas) seems rather redundant and repetitive, and makes me question the entire article.

You know that loud noise you get after a lightning bolt? It's exactly the same thing, and for the same reason. The laser (or lightning) superheats the air, forcing it outward, and leaving a vacuum behind it; the surrounding air then collapses into that vacuum, creating a explosive report.

The word "vaporize" may or may not be inaccurate in this context; I don't know what the exact scientific definition is.

QUOTE

I don't get why a vapor trial would hang around for 2 to 6 minutes though. Wouldn't the wind move it away,

2-6 seconds, not minutes, and then only in a humid environment.

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 29 2003, 10:51 PM

The only problem is of you have a "laser thing" and not your character. your character should have "a thing for lasers". If it fiits the character its all good, if you want one because you think its cool, then I question the motives.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 11:16 PM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

It fits the character I think, he has the ultra modern house with all the high tech gizmos that his lifestlye can afford. He likes scifi trid and the old flat vids of Star Wars and Startrek, he has the knowledge skills. He is just a wierd scifi guy.

I have had other characters that are the same way about other things. I have a character that could easily get a Redline, but he likes the wild west stuff, so he uses 6-shooters custome made and all the stuff that goes with it.

It is about style, some characters I have like things and not others. That is why it each character is a different character. I don't make clones, some are close in purpose because everyone has a thing that appeals to them in the game, but each should be different enough that when you have OOC conversations people in the gaming group know who you are talking about. Like when thay talk about Ghost they know it is my burglar, or when I talk about Kali they know it is my brothers GF, both without saying their names. Like Ghost has a real short temper when it comes to lazyness, he is always working out to stay in peak physical shape to climb walls and is alway studying electronics and computers to be able to break into places, which leads into direct conflict with another players troll who would rather sit on the couch eating chips and pizza, while drinking beer. It doesn't really cause anger between players but it is funny in game, we I rag on his diet, and while I am gone he fills my bed the cupcakes and other "disgusting" food so we I get in bed for the afternoon I sit into cream filling.

But in honesty I think lasers are cool, but they have never fit any characters style. When I first saw the MP III in the Street Sams catalouge, I thought cool a laser but I never thought of getting one for a charater, first of all it was exspensive, and it didn't fit the character.

But the noise thing still seems not right, thunder off of lightning is loud, really loud if your close to the strike spot. A pistol firing something that would not be practicle. I am just finding it hard that it would be that loud. I have been close to lightning strikes several times, close enough to feel the hair stand up on my head. I damn near urinated on my self, pride or not I'll admit it, that was some scary stuff.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 11:22 PM

QUOTE (Phasma Felis)

QUOTE

I don't get why a vapor trial would hang around for 2 to 6 minutes though. Wouldn't the wind move it away,

2-6 seconds, not minutes, and then only in a humid environment.

Ok I mis-read it I don't know why I thought minutes, instead of seconds, well that clears it up. 2 to 6 seconds seems reasonable.

Posted by: Req Oct 29 2003, 11:27 PM

QUOTE

Firstly, I'd go with what Reg said waaay back when. It looks like he has practical experience on the scale you're talking about.

Thanks for the mad props, there - but it's Req. Rhymes with wreck, and all.

QUOTE

A laser the size of a bus, that sounds like a jet, is equal to a laser the size of a pistol sounds like a bee flying? Not to cut anyone down but I have seen a lot of people talk out of their ass, does anyone have laser experience here, I know some of you here do you have admitted it before. What is the duration of the sound? Does it sound like a jet for the millionth of a second it is fired or does it linger and sound like a jet flying away from you?

I'd assume the lasers in those articles "sound like jets" because they're relying on a byproduct of chemical combustion to generate the gases they pass energy through to generate the laser beam. I'm gonna go on a rant here: in brief, lasers rely on the "interger" nature of of electron energy levels to generate their beam. Stop me if you've heard this one:

Everyone's seen the picture of an atom with a nucleus and a couple rings of electrons around it. That's not entirely accurate but it's close. Now, the further an electron is from the nucleus, the more potential energy it contains. If you pump a bunch of energy into an atom, some of that energy gets absorbed by the electrons and they jump "up" to a higher energy state, further from the nucleus. Electrons aren't stable there, though, so they shortly thereafter fall down to their original state, emitting the energy that they absorbed as electromagnetic radiation. Depending on the atom, this "fall" is a different distance, and the further it is the more energy is released.

This is why lasers generate a beam of a single (or very limited number) of wavelengths - there are only so many possible energy-level jumps the electrons of a given atom (or molecule) can make, and there's no "half-way" - the electron either jumps to the next level, or it doesn't. So by pumping a lot of energy (of whatever sort) into a substance, you can convert it all to a specific flavor of electromagnetic radiation. Which could be anywhere in the spectrum.

Now, these big chemical lasers appear to work by combusting a mix of some fuel and oxygen. This gives us both the energy to excite the atoms (in the form of heat) and the proper set of atoms to excite, the byproducts of combustion. IF you're burning a lot of stuff really fast, you're going to make a lot of noise. This is not the case with plasma tube or solid-state diode lasers, which simply put electricity through an existing substance; the loudest noise in my machine's laser is the cooling fan. That said, it won't burn through sheet steel, either.

QUOTE

The size of the weapon and energy it consumes alone is enough of a deterent, but if it has so much noise, vapor trial and othe things you guys have described why do it? The range aspect is nice if you are in space but on earth the range is dropping fast because of the environment, so that can't be a real addition. The armor piercing ability? With smart weapons that are getting even smarter why keep developing lasers?

Uh, we're not. Man-portable laser weapons are not even remotely feasible at this point. There is a "blinding" design but that doesn't take much energy at all. Lasers are really only being considered for theater missle defense, anti-air stuff and shipboard defense. Man-portable lasers won't be able to compete with good old-fashioned slugthrowers for a long while.

They're in Shadowrun because people think they're COOL, but that doesn't mean it's even remotely based on reality.

Rant off.

Posted by: Shadow Oct 29 2003, 11:29 PM

Frag you know how the Fixer system works right? The Redline has an availibilty of 18/3 weeks. And a price tag of 225,000 on the street. That's a lot of money for a pistol and a long time to wait for it.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 29 2003, 11:32 PM

Residual heat is the main side effect of laser usage (80% of the energy used to create a beam is converted to heat waste) and would probably reduce one's signature by a point for a moment or two. SR lasers can be used rapidly without heat build up so they must transfer heat very efficiently.

Let us speak no more of real lasers, they have nothing to do with SR lasers.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 29 2003, 11:55 PM

Yes you call your Fixer and say you want a Redline then you roll your Etiquette skill versus the availibility of the Redline then if you successed your fixer sets up a meeting. Then when you go the meet a price is set 75,000 to 225,000 based street index. Then you take in edges, favors and cost of living, then you negotiate. Who ever wins depending on successes can adjust the price up or down in a GM approved increment, or you can use some successes to reduce the wait time. If you struck a deal you exchange the goods, or shot the bastard down and try to make off with it. That is it right? I am I missing something?

That is why I said I will most likely have to steal it myself out of the Ares warehouse.

I can't remember where I'll look later but they have a optional rule that says if you pay extra you can reduce the availibility but increase the walls have ears. Supposedly paying more means people will beat more bushes looking for what you want but a lot of potenial problems will arise since even grand ma knows what you are after.

I know lasers in SR are not real, I even stated that in the opening post. I am just trying to get a feel for how they would work in RL. Whats wrong with trying to put a little realism in the game? If Req says they would knock a building down with the thunder clap then since he seems real knowlegable about lasers then I'll take his word. But I just wanted to get a wide spread of info because if you take the first answer to a question on a public board chances are you will get it wrong. I am not saying people are lying to me on purpose they may be just misinformed, I know I am a fair bit of times or I just remember things wrong. Like I have said before I have never seen a laser in real life that could destroy things, so I have idea what it feels like, sounds like, or looks like, I just find some stuff hard to believe.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 30 2003, 12:13 AM

To actually do what SR proposes would require a radical leap in laser technology. So comparing them is near worthless because we do not know what they did to solve all the impossibilities.

Leave a slight vapor tail? Sure.

Leave a heat residue? Sure.

Ionize the air? Sure.

Thunder? Not really loud until the range gets very long. See, the beam is very small so the volume of air moved is small as well, meaning that the volume should be low. Real life damaging lasers are loud because the beam size and power both have to be enormous (though the focus point can be small).

There will be a bright flash as the beam hits the target, fire is a very likely after affect including the target's skin (seriously), and smoke. If you're close to the target residue from the reaction will be a danger.

Fire will be localized and not spread unless conditions are ideal for such (like hitting paper or an accelerant).

Posted by: Rev Oct 30 2003, 12:23 AM

QUOTE (Phasma Felis)

The word "vaporize" may or may not be inaccurate in this context; I don't know what the exact scientific definition is.

I think that plasma is what you find inside a lightning bolt, maybe high powered lasers can make plasmas as well.

A rough definition I found on google is "a hot ionized gas", but it says that that is not a completely accurate definition. The plasma you are probably most familiar with is the one inside neon lamps.

Anyway plasma is another state of matter. Like solid, liquid, gas, and various other obscure ones.

Interesting discussion anyhow. A lethal laser sounds like a particularly non-stealthy weapon.

Posted by: Shadow Oct 30 2003, 12:44 AM

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)

to 225,000

based street index. Then you take in edges, favors and cost of living, then you negotiate. Who ever wins depending on successes can adjust the price up or down in a GM approved increment, or you can use some successes to reduce the wait time. If you struck a deal you exchange the goods, or shot the bastard down and try to make off with it. That is it right? I am I missing something?

Yes you are.

In this particular situation you contact an appropriate fixer (for a redline, a weapon fixer or milspec fixer should do) roll your etiquette skill versus the availability of the item.

IF you get a success you divide the time (3 weeks) by your successes to determine how long it takes your fixer to get it.

Example:

Viper wants an Ares Redline for his birthday and happens to have the base street price of 250K laying around. He locates a fixer to buy it for him. Viper rolls his etiquette, and since he is mister smooth he has 6 dice. Viper gets...
04 05 03 09 04 02 no successes. Too bad the Fixer doesn't have a Redline and can't locate one for a while.

Now for some reason you can get these, the base price is 250K. A opposed negotiation check comes next, who ever gets the most successes can modify the base price by +or- %5 per success.

Now I have seen few street sams with an etiquette of 6. In fact, I have only ever seen faces with 6's in etiquette. So you may want one, but I doubt your GM is ever going to just give it to you. So I think you should spend your energies trying to locate someone who has it, and then steal it from them.

Posted by: Shadow Oct 30 2003, 12:48 AM

As a side note I rolled 6 dice with a TN of 18, using the NSRCG dice roller. I rolled 30 times and never got an 18.

Posted by: mfb Oct 30 2003, 12:58 AM

in my game, at least, a laser weapon is not silent--mainly because something important like that would probably be mentioned in the rules, if it were. most of what i know about lasers came from watching Real Genius once, so i've never bothered with an explanation of the noises they make--or, rather, i won't bother, when and if i GM someone who uses them. i think the thunderclap idea is interesting, though.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 30 2003, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (Shadow)

As a side note I rolled 6 dice with a TN of 18, using the NSRCG dice roller. I rolled 30 times and never got an 18.

If you had rolled 6 more times odds are you would of got 1 success ( i think).

The odds of passing that test being 216 -1

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 30 2003, 01:14 AM

I have an etiquette of 6. I can't fight, so I bluff or bribe. In fact I am going to raise the next Karma award I need some good electronics toys, my maglock passkey 4 has almost gotten me busted for the last time. I was about to get my butt kicked by a group of Marines, then I convienced them they can have "my" car if they just let me walk home and not kick my butt. Then as I walked home I called the LS to report "my" car stolen. I can't fight I have no combat skills, or anything. I had to defualt to through a punch one game, I won the fight but broke my wrist.

We usually give bonuses for having the contact that is right or penalties for contacts that are wrong. One of the fixers my character currently uses has two or three military "friends" but is far from a mil spec fixer, the other one problably couldn't get me cigarettes, the bastard. But the GM really wouldn't penalized me for a Redline, in the description I believe it says Ares developed it for "Security" not for "Military" purposes. So as a security weapon it gets hard to find but I don't think you would need a fixer any more important than a guy who can get assualt rifles or LAWS. I mean do you have a fixer for every piece of equipement or grade of equipment?

I was basically right, in truth we do fixing a little different then the book, so what I said was from memory of what I read in the BBB. We have the fixer roll his acquisition skill to see if he has it in stock, then we roll etiquette to see if he will part with it, to us any way, then we negoitate the price. The time is if he says he has it, that means that is when he expects it to be delivered from the smuggler or who is bringiing it in, then the negotiations is to determine price and if we talk him into putting a rush on it. Sometimes the time represents him tracking one down for us and getting it to us. If he fails then that means he can't find one or has it marked for someone else.

For the third time, I will more then likely steal it from the Ares warehouse myself. It is much cheaper and slightly easier to pay a decker friend tell me where they are being stashed, an going to get it myself. I know my GM he is going to be a hard case about it, but in our games the PC's drive the game. Most of our runs come from the runners. We tell the GM what we want from our characters. 90% of the time the characters are setting off the action and the fixer calls us once in a while looking for us to take some work. The character I am playing now breaks into corp compounds just to map the security system, were guns are, doors, equipment type and maker, then puts together security porfolios to sell to fixers for their runner stables.

I have the ability to roll fantasic numbers, I regularly roll 40 and higher. Even though I can stop after 12 or 14 what ever the TN is but I usually keep rolling to see what I get.

Posted by: Shadow Oct 30 2003, 01:16 AM

Well what I was saying was from the book, if you have a house rule that makes it easier, or your GM is Monty Haul, then don't worry about. Hell, get two and off-handed weapons skill!

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Oct 30 2003, 01:37 AM

I understand that is from the book,I even said what I recited was from what I remembered from the book rules, but when our GM took over from the old GM we had two or three of the books, none of them had the offical availibility rules. So when he took over as GM we had to go by the way the old GM showed us how to play. Then we noticed the Fixer was had a acquisition skill but we culdn't find any where were he would use it. So we developed our own version of acquisition. In fact I think It makes it harder to get what you want, because the Fixer has to see if he has it, the 18, then we have to convince him we are the guys he should sell it to another 18, then we negotiate, it is also another fail safe to make sure lucky rolls don't screw the GM. So we are far from Monty Haul which I assume means he gives what ever we want. Now if the Fixer has what ever it is we want but he refuses to sell it to us, we can also try to bribe him to sell it to us. So after some playingand buying up the books we didn't have when the old GM took off, and reading the rules we slowly fixied what we thought was wrong in our way of playing ompared to the offical rules. We liked our fixer rules.

Two weapon style doesn't fit my idea of the character's style or personality so that is out of the question.