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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Character critique
Posted by: djinni Jan 8 2007, 05:12 AM
I threw out the old Idea and brought this one up, since I can't protect the rest of the group if I'm the biggest scariest ugliest thing there, then perhaps I'll be targetted instead of the group?
Resisting damage with 37 dice, 5 to dodge (rarely if ever full combat dodge)
pretty good pool to attack? morale attraction of "shoot the big one first" should prtect the non combat people right?
(keeping the +20% for being a troll until I get an answer back from the GM about it being in chargen or not)
| QUOTE |
Metatype : Troll Mundane Attributes Body: 9 (13) Agility: 4 Reaction: 4(6) Strength: 9 Charisma: 1 Intuition: 4 Logic: 3 Willpower: 3 Edge: 3 Initiative: 8(10) Essence: 1.925  Knowledge Skills English : N Crook Hangouts : 5 Urban Brawl Odds : 5 Area Knowledge : 3 Military : 4 Spanish : 4 Skill group (Athletics) Climbing : 4 Gymnastics : 4 Running : 4 Swimming : 4 Active Skills Blades (Axes) : 5 Heavy Weapon (Grenade Launcher) : 3 Unarmed Combat (Martial Arts) : 4   Positive Qualities Toughness   Negative Qualities <to be added later>: 20BP [Severe] Allergy (Uncommon)  Cyberwares Wired Reflexes (Rating 2) Biowares Bone Density 4 Orthoskin 3 Platelet Factories  Weapons Combat Axe (+ 20%) ArmTech MGL-12 (+ 20%) 10x Flash Bang (+ 20%) 10x Gas Grenades (+ 20%) Armors Armor Jacket (+ 20%) Ballistic Shield (+ 20%) Helmet (+ 20%)  Equipments Contact Lenses (+ 20%) +Flare Compensation +Image Link +Low Light Vision Glasses (+ 20%) +Smartlink +Vision Enhancement (Rating 3) +Vision Magnification Earbud (+ 20%) + Audio Enhancement (Rating 3) + Spatial Recognizer Fake Sin (Rating 4) |
Posted by: Fortune Jan 8 2007, 05:33 AM
Bone Density and Bone Lacing are incompatable.
The Suprathyroid Gland has an Availabilty of 20.
I'm not quite sure, but it seems as if you are adding the bonus for Enhanced Articulation to your Combat Skills. EA only grants a bonus to Physical Skills (a specific category of Skills) linked to a Physical Attribute.
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 8 2007, 05:40 PM
I had a similar idea, to build the biggest baddest damage soaker around.
Part of the problem, though, is that SR opponents don't respond well to Snap-aggro abilities. They tend to look at the party and go "Huge troll with armor, huge troll with armor, skinny elf, skinny human. I'll shoot at skinnies."
Posted by: djinni Jan 8 2007, 06:52 PM
here's a hopefully fixed version
lemme know where I went wrong.
Posted by: Jaid Jan 8 2007, 09:20 PM
don't think you add the 20% cost at chargen to stuff made for dwarf or troll.
wired reflexes adds to reaction. therefore you have either reaction 4(6) or reaction 2(4), depending on if you added it in or not.
with uneducated in there, gunnery (which you have nothing to use with, only used for firing vehicle mounted weapons) seems weird. i assume it was supposed to be heavy weapons (which includes grenade launchers) which also seems weird with uneducated, though i suppose not impossible (after all, it doesn't take that much to learn the basics of using a gun).
perhaps you should reconsider uneducated as a flaw? in fact, as a general rule, whenever you see a flaw worth 20 points, sit down and really ask yourself: how badly do i really want my 20 points all in one shot, as opposed to splitting them up into smaller (5 and 10 point) flaws? because uneducated pretty much means you've never used a calculator, let alone a smartlink 
anyways, as with before, you probably want something boosting your strength and agi, if you're going to be melee. i would drop that 10th point of body, and use the 25 BP elsewhere... like raising agility to 4, boosting one of your mental stats, or getting rid of uneducated.
Posted by: djinni Jan 8 2007, 09:35 PM
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| don't think you add the 20% cost at chargen to stuff made for dwarf or troll. wired reflexes adds to reaction. therefore you have either reaction 4(6) or reaction 2(4), depending on if you added it in or not. with uneducated in there, gunnery (which you have nothing to use with, only used for firing vehicle mounted weapons) seems weird. i assume it was supposed to be heavy weapons (which includes grenade launchers) which also seems weird with uneducated, though i suppose not impossible (after all, it doesn't take that much to learn the basics of using a gun). perhaps you should reconsider uneducated as a flaw? in fact, as a general rule, whenever you see a flaw worth 20 points, sit down and really ask yourself: how badly do i really want my 20 points all in one shot, as opposed to splitting them up into smaller (5 and 10 point) flaws? because uneducated pretty much means you've never used a calculator, let alone a smartlink anyways, as with before, you probably want something boosting your strength and agi, if you're going to be melee. i would drop that 10th point of body, and use the 25 BP elsewhere... like raising agility to 4, boosting one of your mental stats, or getting rid of uneducated. |
he has Exceptional body so dropping that points would be 30 points (20 for the edge, and 10 to drop it to 9)
yeah Heavy weapons instead of gunnery...oops.
uneducated isn't the same as incompetent
things you don't need a skill for (using a calculator for example) you have the same basic understanding everyone else does. the problem will be not knowing how to do higher things.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 8 2007, 09:35 PM
...careful with that combination of Uneducated and Logic of 1.
KK4.3 has been wrestling with this all her career. She had to learn Computer skill (at twice the Karma cost) just so she could use her commlink effectively. In the old credstick days this wasn't much of an issue, but now so much of a character's day to day existence is dependent on his commlink (like going to the Stuffer Shack for grub, getting a beer at the bar, not getting arrested because it isn't turned on, etc.).
With her it does make for some humorous moments I will admit.
I would put the Image Link on the glasses with the Smart Link & then take the Skinlink modification so your GL cannot be easily hacked. Would be bad if you were in the midst of a fight & the clip suddenly dropped out.
Unless you are always going to shoot from a vehicle, Gunnery is a waste. For the GL you should take Heavy Weapons instead.
To make him a better damage soak, I would ditch the Toughness, and go with Increased Pain Tolerance III. This increases the breakpoint for negative modifiers from wound effect.
Since he has Running, Climbing, Swimming and Gymnastics all at 4 (total of 64BPs), you could save a lot by just taking the Athletics Skill Group at 4 for 40BPs With these extra points, he could take another weapons skill like Automatics (SMGs, Assault Rifles). THis could also be a good choice since the Ares Alpha has an integrated GL making it rather versatile
I also notice the character also has 6 more BPs worth of Knowledge skill than what his Logic + Intuition give him (should be 15BPs) . Were extra BPs applied above this total?
Keep in mind with the Uneducated Quality, Professional and Academic Knowledge skills are twice the BP/Karma cost.
One thing I will say, unless he gets hit first with a direct combat spell, he most certainly will geek the mage.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 8 2007, 10:54 PM
| QUOTE (djinni @ Jan 9 2007, 08:35 AM) |
| uneducated isn't the same as incompetent things you don't need a skill for (using a calculator for example) you have the same basic understanding everyone else does. the problem will be not knowing how to do higher things. |
Not exactly ...
| QUOTE (SR4-pg.83) |
| Characters with the Uneducated quality are considered “unaware� in Technical, Academic Knowledge, and Professional Knowledge skills they do not possess (see Skill Ratings, p. 106), and they may not default on skill tests for those skills. The gamemaster may also require the character to make Success Tests for ordinary tasks that the typical sprawl-dweller takes for granted. |
Posted by: djinni Jan 8 2007, 10:59 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Not exactly ...
|
I meant "higher" things being like searching the matrix, or programming his VCR.
as was discussed using a commlink will be a painful task of showing him how to open a chat window fifty times. or having the technomancer do it for him and complete all teh settings before the run, as long as he doesn't mess with it he'll be fine. he has a high common sense (intuition) so that won't be a problem.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 8 2007, 11:02 PM
The point being that he wouldn't, as you said earlier, "have the same basic understanding everyone else does" concerning any kind of technical task.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 8 2007, 11:11 PM
Showing this guy how to use a comlink would be like showing my grandma how to use her email program well. He'd be writing down every step and be unsure about the whole process. After a couple months, he'd probably be just fine with sending and receiving email, but opening an attachment? Oh, that's a whole new problem.
Posted by: Jaid Jan 8 2007, 11:16 PM
on a side note, if he has heavy weapons, that means you could buy him an ingram white knight (recommended, imo) or a Stoner-Ares M202 and get some nice recoil compensation in there.
the white knight costs a bunch less, and needs less upgrading, so i'd probably go with that (specifically, you can fire two bursts without needing to even brace it on your shoulder). additionally, it can fire bursts instead of just full auto, and could theoretically take a sound suppressor. though i can't for the life of me imagine that making it *quiet* it should at least make it less loud. this also means you don't have to blow stuff up to kill people far away. furthermore, it's only 500 
more than an M202 to get a white knight with a gyro-mount, which offers, between the integral gas vent, shockpad on the stock, and the theoretical gyro-mount 12 points of recoil comp... 6 of which can be applied to movement modifiers, if you so require.
additionally, i would, now i look at it, recommend a couple more types of grenades: gas grenades (if you're a cheapskate, pepper punch works just fine) and flashbangs (note the damage stays the same out to the full distance, which makes it handy for groups, and firing two flashbangs should be enough to KO most regular sec troops without killing).
Posted by: djinni Jan 9 2007, 12:06 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 8 2007, 06:02 PM) |
| The point being that he wouldn't, as you said earlier, "have the same basic understanding everyone else does" concerning any kind of technical task. |
the same basic understand being that he lives in the same world with all these gadgets. know how they work but maybe not why
the grandma would be an inapetitude in computers, uneducated would be like a highschool graduate. who hasn't gone off into a tech school or something similar.
but that aside whether or not we have different views on how uneducated will be a disability to him, is the rest of it okay?
switching gas grenades instead of explosives seems a better option. as was pointed out in my last attempt a direct shot from a machinegun will be less optimal since his dicepool will be below the expected average or the editors (you guys)
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 9 2007, 12:50 AM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) |
| Showing this guy how to use a comlink would be like showing my grandma how to use her email program well. He'd be writing down every step and be unsure about the whole process. After a couple months, he'd probably be just fine with sending and receiving email, but opening an attachment? Oh, that's a whole new problem. |
..Violet has done this with one of the other PCs on her team. Again kind of amusing now & then.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 12:51 AM
Uneducated is definitely not like a high school graduate -- it's a person who never graduated from high school, let alone had any sort of formal schooling at all. Since you can't default and haven't spent any points on the Computer skill, you have no understanding of "computers and electronic devices, which in the 2070s is just about everything powered by electricity." Since you can't default, you have no Artisan skills -- you can't sing, dance or paint, at all. Since you haven't spent any skill points in Armorer and you can't default, you can't even swap out a barrel mount for some other piece of weaponry -- you have absolutely no idea how guns are put together. You don't know any First Aid, at all, or any medicine -- a bandage? Why use that when you can just piss in the dirt and pack the resulting mud on the wound to stop the blood loss? Bark from the willow tree to stop a headache? Nope, you haven't spend the skill points so you don't know anything about things like that.
| QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 83, Uneducated) |
| An Uneducated character has grown up far away from the modern sprawl and is thus ignorant of modern society in general, possessing only a rudimentary knowledge of reading, writing, and arithmetic. This quality is fitting for characters who grew up in primitive societies or back-to-the-land anti-technological communes (for example, Amazonian primitives, Luddite collectives, or NAN pinkskins). This quality also applies to certain sentient paracritters that have developed their own primitive society (such as shapeshifters, naga, and merrow). Characters with the Uneducated quality are considered “unaware� in Technical, Academic Knowledge, and Professional Knowledge skills they do not possess (see Skill Ratings, p. 106), and they may not default on skill tests for those skills. The gamemaster may also require the character to make Success Tests for ordinary tasks that the typical sprawl-dweller takes for granted. Additionally, the Karma cost for learning new skills or improving existing ones in these categories is twice normal (including at character creation), and the character may never learn skill groups belonging to these categories. |
| QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 206, Using the Matrix) |
| Every Shadowrun character possesses basic computer and electronics skills (unless you possess the Incompetent or Uneducated negative qualities, p. 83 and 84) and has personal experience with networking, searching for data, and using the Matrix in general. Standard denizens of the Sixth World use their commlinks/PANs on a constant basis to make telecom calls, experience augmented reality, search for data, keep in touch with teammates, and manage their finances. |
You do possess the Uneducated negative quality, so you can't do what "standard denizens of the Sixth World" can do, unless you spend the necessary skillpoints.
Posted by: Squinky Jan 9 2007, 12:56 AM
Real quick here:
Depending on how your group rules on Cyberlimb armor, you can crank up your armor rating pretty quick with some lower legs both with +2 armor. That also depends on how your group rules on meta cyberlimbs though I guess.
And I see a massive issue with not having muscle toner and augmentation. It's a must.
Posted by: djinni Jan 9 2007, 12:59 AM
as I said...we have differing views you all combine common sense into education, we don't. (example: common sense says urine and dirt is a bad Idea for first aide, education tells you what would be good Idea)
so once again can we put that aside?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2007, 01:05 AM
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| as I said...we have differing views you all combine common sense into education, we don't. so once again can we put that aside? |
Before we put this aside, could you please tell me just what disadvantages your group does assign for the 20 Point Negative Quality, Uneducated? Seems to me that you are brushing aside some of the bigger drawbacks.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 01:08 AM
| QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 206, Using the Matrix) |
| Every Shadowrun character possesses basic computer and electronics skills (unless you possess the Incompetent or Uneducated negative qualities, p. 83 and 84) and has personal experience with networking, searching for data, and using the Matrix in general. Standard denizens of the Sixth World use their commlinks/PANs on a constant basis to make telecom calls, experience augmented reality, search for data, keep in touch with teammates, and manage their finances. |
You do possess the Uneducated negative quality, so you can't do what "standard denizens of the Sixth World" can do, unless you spend the necessary skillpoints.
The rules specifically say that, unless you spend the necessary skill points, you have none, zero, nill proficiency in Technical skills areas (as well as Academic and Professional Knowledge areas). You haven't spent the skill points and thus have no computers ability and thus cannot use anything electronical -- you have zero ability in those areas.
It's not common sense to know how a comlink works. They're far more sophisticated and can do far more things than the most advanced cell phone/blackberry item on the market today. Just spend 4 BP and put a single point in Computers and suddenly you've had enough familiarity with them that you can now use comlinks for basic functions.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 9 2007, 01:09 AM
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| but that aside whether or not we have different views on how uneducated will be a disability to him, is the rest of it okay? switching gas grenades instead of explosives seems a better option. as was pointed out in my last attempt a direct shot from a machinegun will be less optimal since his dicepool will be below the expected average or the editors (you guys) |
....I would still consolidate your physical skills und the Group Skill: Athletics. This will save you 24BPs.
I noticed you stayed with the Toughness Quality. I would again suggest the Increased Pain Tolerance Quality. It would make him more tougher by the fact he wouldn't be taking negative modifiers to his DPs as easily when he does take damage. KK4.3 has level II, and I've seen that it does make a difference.
| QUOTE (Banaticus) |
| Just spend 4 BP and put a single point in Computers and suddenly you've had enough familiarity with them that you can now use comlinks for basic functions. |
Actually with the Uneducated quality, the BP cost is doubled to 8.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 01:17 AM
I don't see an Increased Pain Tolerance. I see a High Pain Tolerance that allows him to ignore wound modifiers, but it's not compatible with any cyber/bioware. As the character progresses, wouldn't Toughness be better when paired with good cyber/bioware that allows him to ignore pain modifiers?
You're right Kyoto Kid. djinni, if you buy the Athletics (group) skill at 4, then buy Computers 1, you'll still have 16 BP to spend on other things. Athletics isn't a technical skill, so your character can buy that skill group.
Posted by: Catharz Godfoot Jan 9 2007, 01:27 AM
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| as I said...we have differing views you all combine common sense into education, we don't. (example: common sense says urine and dirt is a bad Idea for first aide, education tells you what would be good Idea) so once again can we put that aside? |
You mean that education tells you that urine is a good idea when you have no access to sterile water?
Posted by: djinni Jan 9 2007, 01:27 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Before we put this aside, could you please tell me just what disadvantages your group does assign for the 20 Point Negative Quality, Uneducated? Seems to me that you are brushing aside some of the bigger drawbacks. |
the skills were purchased as a skill group I listed them seperatly because I wasn't sure what items/ware added to some skills and not others. but have since removed those ware/gear I'm planning on giving him a pain editor so don't want to spend the high pain tolerance points in chargen.
in our group:
a person with inepptitude is like someone who can't stop calling you because "illegal error" pops up and they are scared they did something illegal.
an uneducated person doesn't know what the error is or means but has the common sense to know it's something with the computer.
he might not be able to operate his commlink but he can perform certain simple functions, answer a call send and outgoing call... not when under duress or in combat but give him 5 minutes and he can get it done.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 9 2007, 01:31 AM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) |
| I don't see an Increased Pain Tolerance. I see a High Pain Tolerance that allows him to ignore wound modifiers, but it's not compatible with any cyber/bioware. As the character progresses, wouldn't Toughness be better when paired with good cyber/bioware that allows him to ignore pain modifiers? You're right Kyoto Kid. djinni, if you buy the Athletics (group) skill at 4, then buy Computers 1, you'll still have 16 BP to spend on other things. Athletics isn't a technical skill, so your character can buy that skill group. |
...ooops, got mixed up with the Adept power (don't have the BBB at work with me)
As to not being compatable with bio or cyber, I could see that if the character had Pain Editor and/or Trauma Damper Bioware (which this character does not). I believe it says in the BBB that you can't have both High Pain Tolerance and the Adept Power Increased Pain Tolerance.
[Edit - Revision]
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| I'm planning on giving him a pain editor so don't want to spend the high pain tolerance points in chargen. |
Ahh, that does clarify things a bit.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2007, 01:34 AM
Fair enough. Not how I'd run it, but it's cool. Thanks for the response, and I'll drop it now, as I promised. 
Posted by: djinni Jan 9 2007, 02:19 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Fair enough. Not how I'd run it, but it's cool. Thanks for the response, and I'll drop it now, as I promised. |
don't have to drop it, Ideas or suggestions on how to cope with it are great rather than pointing out how he's incompetent, I'm more concerned with whether or not this character will be survivable in combat, than not being able to use his commlink. will he be sufficiently large in battle to draw attention and enemy fire, since it is impossible to "cover" the whole team the only way I know to do that is make them afraid or looking at something else. any other Ideas on how to do it are much appreciated.
Posted by: toturi Jan 9 2007, 02:26 AM
I think the point was that he is more liable to draw fire because he can't use his commlink properly. Like not turning on his commlink or having it in Hidden when in a high sec area. Or having so much AR spam and not knowing how to deal with it.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 02:37 AM
| QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot) |
| You mean that education tells you that urine is a good idea when you have no access to sterile water? |
I said that an uneducated character would choose the "sterile" urine over the high-tech solution that's 10x bettter and which doesn't pack in possibly infected dirt into the wound (ignoring how difficult it's going to be to clean the wound later on). No to mention that, although urine itself might be sterile, that doesn't mean that the opening to the urethra is sterile. However, this character wouldn't know any of this, as he's uneducated and has spent no points in either First Aid or Medicine. So he'd be choosing the "natural" method over the high tech method that's far better.
Posted by: djinni Jan 9 2007, 02:38 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| I think the point was that he is more liable to draw fire because he can't use his commlink properly. Like not turning on his commlink or having it in Hidden when in a high sec area. Or having so much AR spam and not knowing how to deal with it. |
the resident technomancer can see that he doesn't. and since they will be linked into a party network she'll have ready access to his commlink.
also those issues are outside of combat they aren't going to simply shoot him because he's not broadcasting properly.
Posted by: ornot Jan 9 2007, 03:02 AM
OK. I get that you want to make a big bad troll that can take a great deal of physical abuse. I don't really understand why. Whether he is going to be targeted over the rest of the team will depend very much on the circumstances of the run.
If the NPCs he's up against decide he's the biggest threat the next question they're going to ask is "can we take him down?" If they decide the answer is yes you'd better hope they're poor judges. If they decide the answer is no then they'll pull back and call for back-up, if they're sensible.
All that aside, I'm curious as to how your troll got to be the troll he is. Why has he decided that running interference for the smart squishy runners and getting shot up is a good idea? I'm sure you can give me a reason, I'd just like to hear it.
Posted by: Glyph Jan 9 2007, 03:55 AM
| QUOTE (BBB @ pg. 301) |
(As a rule, we suggest that metatype modification costs not be incurred for any gear purchased during character creation). |
I kind of agree with that, myself. It messes up the whole point of streamlined character creation when you turn around and make a player do math on every piece of gear.
I salute you for actually taking bone density: 4 and orthoskin: 3 - that's a very strong focus on damage soaking. Me, I'd be too daunted by the cost, and too tempted by all of the other goodies out there like muscle toner: 2, reflex recorders, synthcardium, and so on. Hopefully your guy will last long enough to add some of that stuff.
One thing, though. Think seriously about how much of the game involves combat, because your character can't do much of anything outside of that role. For a combat-heavy campaign, he's good, but for a campaign with lots of planning, information gathering, and schmoozing with NPCs, you might find yourself getting kind of bored.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 09:43 AM
Well, even if he wasn't much good outside of combat, I'd sure like him in my team of Shadowrunners. Just go invisible and let him deal with the guards.
Posted by: Jack Kain Jan 9 2007, 11:28 AM
Ok if he's going close combat he needs some agility boosting. The bioware muscle toner if rather usefull in this area.
When you swing and axe, throw a bunch or shoot a gun agility is the applied stat. Concidering the rather high number to rolls linked to agility you'll be making boost it is a very good idea.
I'd advice dropping the Bone Dense all together and getting muscle toner and muscle augmention rating 2. This will up both your strength and agility. (melee damage is strength divded by 2 round up + some number)
One tactic to concider is, boost both your agility and strength via bioware and use your fists for stuning guys down. Many runs require you bring back alive target or worse yet, a run that requries you not kill anybody. If your augmented strength is 11 you deal 10P plus hits with a combat axe. A sweet attack.
Some minor ware you might like
The internal air tank will give you a 2 hour air supply. Its cheep and has a low essence cost.
Perfect for gass attacks or if you happen to fall off a boat. (and being a troll with rating 4 bone dense your going to take some major swim penalties)
Making the wired reflexs alpha, will save you some essence for later.
And ultrasonic sensor can help you deal with those pesky invisible mages.
A Grenade is a grenade, they are one size fits all
I'm fairly sure you need the image link on the same device as the smartlink for the smartlink to work.
If your going for 1 charisma you could go the extra mile and take Uncloth.
Posted by: toturi Jan 9 2007, 11:49 AM
The PC has no Social skills, please do not take Uncouth, unless you are planning(and your GM is allowing you) to act totally out of character.
Uncouth means as a troll with no Intimidate skill, a puny 1 Body human walks up to you and trash talks you, you roll over and cry,"Mommy," because you got absolutely no dice to roll. Please do not get Uncouth unless you plan on taking Social Skills (but if you are going to take Social wth are you doing with Uncouth anyway?)
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2007, 01:23 PM
| QUOTE (Jack Kain) |
| I'd advice dropping the Bone Dense all together and getting muscle toner and muscle augmention rating 2. This will up both your strength and agility. (melee damage is strength divded by 2 round up + some number) |
Then throw Bone Lacing in as well.
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 9 2007, 05:42 PM
| QUOTE (ornot @ Jan 8 2007, 09:02 PM) |
| OK. I get that you want to make a big bad troll that can take a great deal of physical abuse. I don't really understand why. Whether he is going to be targeted over the rest of the team will depend very much on the circumstances of the run. If the NPCs he's up against decide he's the biggest threat the next question they're going to ask is "can we take him down?" If they decide the answer is yes you'd better hope they're poor judges. If they decide the answer is no then they'll pull back and call for back-up, if they're sensible. |
That's my question as well.
Some of the time, people will go for the biggest, baddest target. But if you're only the biggest baddest because you're a big guy, people are going to quickly realize that they can remove 4 of your team mates, or you, and make the efficient choice.
That being said, the addition of a medium machine gun will make a lot of difference, especially with Autofire or Suppressive fire being used. So I'd recommend swapping your specialization from GL to Machine Gun, and picking up a Stoner. GLs don't require nearly as much precision - you can afford to drop the 2 dice.
| QUOTE |
All that aside, I'm curious as to how your troll got to be the troll he is. Why has he decided that running interference for the smart squishy runners and getting shot up is a good idea? I'm sure you can give me a reason, I'd just like to hear it. |
Heck, that's simple. It's what he does. It's *all* he does. He realized early one he was big, and he was tough, and he was dumb. Once he got in to running, his first several teams shoved him in to the role of meatshield, and he was pretty good at it. It doesn't require a lot of planning, it doesn't require complex interactions. It requires "Get between me and bullets."
It's all a "big dumb troll like you" can do.
It also creates some very interesting self-esteem issues, in my mind. And a giant troll with self-esteem issues is kinda funny."Why you not like Mongo? Mongo try hard be nice. Mongo not smell nice? Mongo use Toilet Water like you say to smell good, Mongo do hair, Mongo buy everyone rat pizza. But still, it 'Mongo. Go get shot. Mongo. Here come grenade, you jump on it.' Poor Mongo."
Posted by: djinni Jan 9 2007, 06:04 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| It's all a "big dumb troll like you" can do. It also creates some very interesting self-esteem issues, in my mind. And a giant troll with self-esteem issues is kinda funny. |
yeah that was kinda the reason, (guess it's obvious) I was going to use the roleplay interaction of the group (the motherly technomancer) to help him cope, and possibly become better at other things too. but underneath it all he's insecure about everything except the physical nature of what he is.
I wasn't going to talk like that, was going to keep his mouth shut alot of the time, so I could think up the stuipdest things to interject. but I might just use that voice.
I don't have enough money to get alpha Wired reflexes 2.
Bone density doesn't set off security as much as bone lacing, and you roll the same number of dice for resistance. I'll see about tweaking it to get the toner,a nd aug in there.
on a side note, how much could cosmetic surgery cover dermal plating?
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 06:49 PM
Not at all. How difficult would it be to cover up a full body kevlar coat so that the coat looks "natural", like your real skin? Dermal plating consists of plastic or metal plates overlayed on your body. Plus (probably due to nutrient problems or just bonding with the plastic or metal in general), you can't have orthoskin laid down on top of dermal plates anyway.
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 9 2007, 06:59 PM
I thought dermal was just under the skin?
I think you could get cosmetic surgery that didn't look like dermal armor.
It wouldn't look like natural skin, though. It would look like rhino plates, or wearing a monkey suit, or some such. Clearly not your natural skin, but also not necessarily dermal armor.
Trying to get realistic skin would look like wearing a skin suit, I think.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 07:18 PM
How much essence is your current cyber/bioware costing right now? Subtract how much you're spending on your wired reflexes. Is it less than 3 points? Because then you could drop the wired reflexes and buy the adept merit for 5BP and spend your three magic points on Increased Reflexes 2 (since you'd already have lost three magic points from the cyber/bioware). And that would give you a great deal more BP to spend on other stuff, instead of the nuyen cost of wired reflexes.
As to dermal plating:
| QUOTE |
| Dermal plating consists of hard plastic and metal fiber plates bonded to the user’s skin. The plates are clearly visible and can be stylized for surface texture and color. Dermal plating confers a bonus to both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating. Dermal plating cannot be combined with orthoskin. |
Posted by: psykotisk_overlegen Jan 9 2007, 07:23 PM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) |
| Because then you could drop the wired reflexes and buy the adept merit for 5BP and spend your three magic points on Increased Reflexes 2 (since you'd already have lost three magic points from the cyber/bioware). And that would give you a great deal more BP to spend on other stuff, instead of the nuyen cost of wired reflexes. |
Did you include the BP cost of raising the magic attribute high enough to afford Increaed reflexes 2 after 3 lost points of essence? I'm betting that's gonna cost a lot more than the Nuyen the wired reflexes cost.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 07:57 PM
Well, after you lose permanent points of Magic because of lost essence, funnily enough it suddenly becomes easier to buy new points of Magic, as the cost of raising an attribute is [new rating * 3]. If you can start with a low rating, then it doesn't cost very much to raise it back up. So you buy cyber/bioware, spending all the way up to six essence on it. Your Magic rating becomes zero.
For a mage to initiate five times and raise his magic by five points (from 6 to 11), it would cost 382 karma. For wired adept to initiate five times and raise his magic by five points (from 0 to 5), is only 93 karma.
Now, wired reflexes 2 already costs 3 essence. So, since you can't spend more than six essence anyway, that 3 essence that you would have spent on wired reflexes 2 allows you to buy the adept power Increased Reflexes 2, for three magic points. Then, you only need to initiate twice and buy two additional points of magic (going from 3 to 5) to get your adept Increased Reflexes up to level 3 (the max it can be) -- which would only be 18 karma. Compare 18 karma to the 70k that it'll cost just to buy the third level of wired reflexes, let alone paying someone to install it in you and also finding an additional two points of essence somewhere, which would likely require a higher grade of cyber/bioware anyway and you can see that it's prohibitively expensive to solely go cyber/bioware when you could combine the two and spend your karma on initiation and points of magic, wherever it makes the most sense and where you can get something for either a cheaper magic point cost or a cheaper essence cost.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 9 2007, 08:08 PM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) |
| For a mage to initiate five times and raise his magic by five points (from 6 to 11), it would cost 382 karma. For wired adept to initiate five times and raise his magic by five points (from 0 to 5), is only 93 karma. |
But if your magic rating ever hits zero you lost all magical ability and are permanently and forevermore mundane. There is no buying it back up. So during character generation you have to buy sufficient magic attribute such that when you then get your cyber you still have a magic rating of at least 1.
Once you begin play, you can cheaply raise it to 2, then get more cyber dropping it back to 1, and repeat. But if you drop it to 0 you can never raise it again, ever.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2007, 08:27 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jan 10 2007, 07:08 AM) |
| So during character generation you have to buy sufficient magic attribute such that when you then get your cyber you still have a magic rating of at least 1. Once you begin play, you can cheaply raise it to 2, then get more cyber dropping it back to 1, and repeat. But if you drop it to 0 you can never raise it again, ever. |
Is this seriously how you run things? If I had an Adept with a Magic Attribute of 4 and 3 Points of Wares (making my Magic Attribute 4 [1]), would you only charge me the 6 Karma to raise it to 2, or would you charge the normal Karma cost (15) to raise it to 5 [2], which is what it technically should be?
If it's the former, then I definitely would choose to play awakened characters almost exclusively in your games.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 9 2007, 08:31 PM
Whoa whoa, Fortune, settle down. I was stating my understanding of how the book describes it. The "RAW". (god I hate that acronym)
Personally, I agree with you that it should be treated as 5(2), and if there's a book or FAQ quote that makes that explicit I'd like to see it.
Posted by: Butterblume Jan 9 2007, 08:48 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| If I had an Adept with a Magic Attribute of 4 and 3 Points of Wares (making my Magic Attribute 4 [1]), would you only charge me the 6 Karma to raise it to 2 |
That's what the rules say. I'm not having really a problem with that, because once you hit magic 3 again, you have to start to initiate to be able to increase magic further.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 9 2007, 10:24 PM
So, I didn't believe you, and had to check with the man upstairs ...
| QUOTE (Me) |
| Let's say I have an awakened character with a Magic Attribute of 4. He gets 3 full points of 'ware installed, binging his effective Magic Attribute down to 1 (technically 4 [1]). If I then choose to use Karma to increase his Magic Attribute, would it cost me 6 Karma or 15 Karma to raise his effective Magic Attribute to 5 [2]? |
| QUOTE (Rob Boyle) |
| I could have sworn I covered this in the FAQ. Hrm. The answer is: it would cost you 6 (ie, you're buying from 1 to 2). Note that Magic lost from Essence loss is (semi-)permanent. If you get 3 Essence points of 'ware installed, your Magic goes from 4 to 1, not 4 (1). Your max. natural Magic rating also drops from 6 to 3. |
Excuse me now while I go and retroactively twink out my 'ware-bearing awakened characters.
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 9 2007, 10:58 PM
This is the first time in SR I've said "I'm going to ignore the official clarification."
But jebus, that's a bad bad bad idea. Anything that sets up a routine where it's better to do things in a convoluted method (1->2, install 1 point of ware, 1->2, install 1 point of ware, etc) doesn't work for me.
Posted by: tisoz Jan 9 2007, 11:00 PM
I'd add some stuff to protect from gas attacks. Also armor mods to protect from shock weapons and chemical attacks.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 9 2007, 11:47 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| Anything that sets up a routine where it's better to do things in a convoluted method (1->2, install 1 point of ware, 1->2, install 1 point of ware, etc) doesn't work for me. |
It doesn't quite work that way. You only have six points of essence, so you still have that hard cap on how much cyber/bioware you have. When you go from 1 to 2, then add another point of cyber/bioware, you lose that point of magic. Essentially, you paid all that karma to only temporarily have its benefit. If you want the benefit back, then yes you have to pay the price again and raise it from 1 to 2.
As I see it, it's not convoluted. If you pay the price, you get the benefit. If you try to double up on it, you lose the benefit and will have to pay the price again in order to once more receive the benefit. This continues until you hit that hard Essence cap and can't spend any more Essence (at which point you can go Beta/Delta to use that Essence more efficiently and can initiate and buy more magic points, but your magic will never decrease again from cyber/bioware as you're already at your Essence cap).
Posted by: ornot Jan 10 2007, 12:04 AM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) |
| It's all a "big dumb troll like you" can do. It also creates some very interesting self-esteem issues, in my mind. And a giant troll with self-esteem issues is kinda funny. "Why you not like Mongo? Mongo try hard be nice. Mongo not smell nice? Mongo use Toilet Water like you say to smell good, Mongo do hair, Mongo buy everyone rat pizza. But still, it 'Mongo. Go get shot. Mongo. Here come grenade, you jump on it.' Poor Mongo." |
Poor Mongo indeed! I could't read that without laughing.. Brilliant!
As for buying up magic after 'ware addition, I can scarcely understand why you'd want to. 'Ware is easiest to justify at character creation, so you'd need to sink enough points into magic to offset the 'ware you were planning on picking up. After that your essence is still limited to 6, so you can't add more 'ware indefinately. And without initiating your max magic rating is going to drop to 0 once your essence drops below 1.
Frankly if I was going to go through all the trouble of initiating I'd rather be able to have an enhanced magic cap (and presumably magic rating). Else you're cybered up, intiated up the whazoo street sam/mage is no more magically powerful than a starting mage can be. If you've got the karma to waste then fair enough, but if you've got that much karma why not be a kick ass magic 8 or 9 mage?
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 10 2007, 12:17 AM
What else does your average street sam spend the karma on? Sure, you can max out Body/Strength and your Ares Predator skill. But you have a hard essence cap. You can just keep on initiating.
The thing about adepts is that their magic attribute really doesn't matter. They don't have the strong correlation between a high magic attribute and high force spells that mages have. If an adept only really wants powers that cost two magic points, then he only needs two magic points.
Most street sams just care about nuyen so they can buy better grades of 'ware -- karma is nice but most really don't care. Being an adept street sam actually gives them goals that they can work towards and a reason to care about karma.
Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 10 2007, 12:24 AM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) | ||
I said that an uneducated character would choose the "sterile" urine over the high-tech solution that's 10x bettter and which doesn't pack in possibly infected dirt into the wound (ignoring how difficult it's going to be to clean the wound later on). No to mention that, although urine itself might be sterile, that doesn't mean that the opening to the urethra is sterile. However, this character wouldn't know any of this, as he's uneducated and has spent no points in either First Aid or Medicine. So he'd be choosing the "natural" method over the high tech method that's far better. |
By high tech solution you mean maggots, right?
Posted by: ornot Jan 10 2007, 12:59 AM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) |
| What else does your average street sam spend the karma on? Sure, you can max out Body/Strength and your Ares Predator skill. But you have a hard essence cap. You can just keep on initiating. The thing about adepts is that their magic attribute really doesn't matter. They don't have the strong correlation between a high magic attribute and high force spells that mages have. If an adept only really wants powers that cost two magic points, then he only needs two magic points. Most street sams just care about nuyen so they can buy better grades of 'ware -- karma is nice but most really don't care. Being an adept street sam actually gives them goals that they can work towards and a reason to care about karma. |
I can't help feeling that if you've gotten that much karma you're either earning it too quickly, or you've been playing the same character long enough that retirement might be in order.
I guess the GM could design a run that'll really stretch you, but by the time you're rolling 14 dice for every skill it's going to be a pretty bloody tough run.
I would also draw your attention to the last paragraph describing the adept quality.
Posted by: Glyph Jan 10 2007, 03:48 AM
Starting out with a cybered-up adept is not really that cost-effective. I mean, if you take 4 Essense points worth of 'ware, you have to buy a 5 magic to have 1 point of it left afterwards. So you are paying 45 points (adept quality and Magic of 5) in addition to the high resources that you needed in order to get the cyber in the first place.
If you are going to be an adept anyways, you will find that a few items are cheaper to get as 'ware (muscle toner, synaptic accelerator, synthcardium, some others), but most of the time adept powers are more effective. Mystic armor and combat sense are both pretty cheap to get, not to mention things like critical strike. Generally, your best bet, if optimizing a combat build, is to take one or two points of cyber or bio, and the rest in adept powers.
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 10 2007, 05:00 PM
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Starting out with a cybered-up adept is not really that cost-effective. I mean, if you take 4 Essense points worth of 'ware, you have to buy a 5 magic to have 1 point of it left afterwards. So you are paying 45 points (adept quality and Magic of 5) in addition to the high resources that you needed in order to get the cyber in the first place. If you are going to be an adept anyways, you will find that a few items are cheaper to get as 'ware (muscle toner, synaptic accelerator, synthcardium, some others), but most of the time adept powers are more effective. Mystic armor and combat sense are both pretty cheap to get, not to mention things like critical strike. Generally, your best bet, if optimizing a combat build, is to take one or two points of cyber or bio, and the rest in adept powers. |
Agreed. The break points seems to be at 2 essence. Beyond that, and it's not worth being an Adept.
As for the convoluted method, consider this.
I have an Adept. He wants to eventually have 5 point of ware and 1 point of magic. For whatever reason, I started with 1 magic and no ware.
So, I'm in game, and now want to spend Karma.
Magic costs new rating * 3.
I can go to 2, to 3, to 4, to 5, to 6. That's 6+9+12+15+18 karma, or 60 karma. Then I buy 5 points of ware.
Or I can go to 2, and spend 6 karma. Then I can get 1 point of ware put in. Then I go to 2 again, and spend 6 karma. Then I get 1 point of ware put in. Rinse and repeat. 36 karma, versus 60. 24 karma difference is pretty significant. Granted, it's weird, and I can't pick up wired 3 with ware, but I wager I could wrangle it pretty well.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 10 2007, 05:34 PM
I will grant you that 24 karma is non-negligible, but it's hardly game-breaking either. And considering you survived as a 1-magic Adept for several sessions to accumulate all the money and cyber and karma, well, I'd say you've earned it.
Posted by: ornot Jan 10 2007, 05:59 PM
I'd also be inclined to suggest that a player doing that was not "intending to play as an adept" and would feel little or no remorse in having them lose their magic as a result.
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 10 2007, 07:57 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| I will grant you that 24 karma is non-negligible, but it's hardly game-breaking either. And considering you survived as a 1-magic Adept for several sessions to accumulate all the money and cyber and karma, well, I'd say you've earned it. |
Not really. You invested 1 magic point. That's 5 BP. And you got 1 magic point worth of skills - probably +2 to a gun skill. Which is 8 bp.
So you actually saved 3 bp.
Granted, it's not a great use of karma over all.
But the main point is that any ruling which encourages weirdness like this is a bad ruling, to me.
The other situation is someone playing a 400 point, 100 karma game. I'm fairly certain that you can use this ruling to abuse it as well. It won't be a huge gain - probably on the order of 8-10 karma or bps. But still, simply by saying "Oh, no, I bought things in *this* order, so I have more karma" is against what I see Shadowrun being about.
In d20? Sure. Par for the course. SR? Not so much.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 10 2007, 08:14 PM
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| I'd also be inclined to suggest that a player doing that was not "intending to play as an adept" and would feel little or no remorse in having them lose their magic as a result. |
Is there a 'right way' to play an Adept? One of the things I like about Shadowrun is the lack (or at least minimalization) of a character class system. I don't feel that players should be punished because they choose to play their characters outside the box.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 10 2007, 08:23 PM
| QUOTE (lorechaser) | ||
Not really. You invested 1 magic point. That's 5 BP. And you got 1 magic point worth of skills - probably +2 to a gun skill. Which is 8 bp. So you actually saved 3 bp. Granted, it's not a great use of karma over all. But the main point is that any ruling which encourages weirdness like this is a bad ruling, to me. The other situation is someone playing a 400 point, 100 karma game. I'm fairly certain that you can use this ruling to abuse it as well. It won't be a huge gain - probably on the order of 8-10 karma or bps. But still, simply by saying "Oh, no, I bought things in *this* order, so I have more karma" is against what I see Shadowrun being about. In d20? Sure. Par for the course. SR? Not so much. |
Okay, so for your example. You now have a completely uncybered character who has two extra dice for one skill. (although really with a magic rating of 1 you can't have any power with a rating higher than 1, so it would have to be two skills each with one extra die, but that's not my point) The point is, while this character has saved 3BP, an uncybered character who's only magical ability is a couple extra skill dice is hardly a broken, munchy, overpowered character.
And if they ARE taking cyberware, then they're paying for magic points that they aren't benefiting from, so I'm not that worried about it.
For your example of the 400BP + 100karma game. It's a good point. I wouldn't want to make a player choose between making an "efficient" choice of character history vs. the background they really want. I'd give them the cheaper price, and let them describe their background however they wanted.
Similarly I'd let the Samurai make his character with all alphaware, but would allow him to describe having other ware that was upgraded or replaced completely in his background without expecting him to pay for it.
Basically, build the mechanics of your character as efficiently as you want. Then describe them however you want, fleshing out their history to make them into the person you really want them to be.
Maybe I'm wrong and this is actually a much bigger problem than I think it is, and if I find that it is becoming a problem in any of my games I'll gladly admit it. But so far? It just hasn't been a problem for me.
Posted by: Banaticus Jan 11 2007, 01:31 AM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| I wouldn't want to make a player choose between making an "efficient" choice of character history vs. the background they really want. |
Now that we've thoroughly hijacked this thread...
We still have that problem of "efficiency" in character creation. It was why BeCKS was created so many years ago. To buy a skill up in game, it costs more and more every time you raise it, it's a factorial difference (*2, *3, *4, *5, etc.). But the first point of a skill during character creation costs exactly the same amount as the fourth point of that skill during character creation.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 11 2007, 08:57 AM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) |
| We still have that problem of "efficiency" in character creation. It was why BeCKS was created so many years ago. To buy a skill up in game, it costs more and more every time you raise it, it's a factorial difference (*2, *3, *4, *5, etc.). But the first point of a skill during character creation costs exactly the same amount as the fourth point of that skill during character creation. |
You might be interested in http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=9901&hl=.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 11 2007, 03:02 PM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) | ||
Now that we've thoroughly hijacked this thread... We still have that problem of "efficiency" in character creation. It was why BeCKS was created so many years ago. To buy a skill up in game, it costs more and more every time you raise it, it's a factorial difference (*2, *3, *4, *5, etc.). But the first point of a skill during character creation costs exactly the same amount as the fourth point of that skill during character creation. |
That is true. And I've never really liked that disconnect between pre- and post-generation. So I completely agree with you that it's a bad thing, but I don't think it really has anything to do with cyberadepts in particular.
Posted by: ornot Jan 12 2007, 12:19 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Is there a 'right way' to play an Adept? One of the things I like about Shadowrun is the lack (or at least minimalization) of a character class system. I don't feel that players should be punished because they choose to play their characters outside the box. |
I would suggest that magic requires a commitment to that magic by the magical character. It's not specified in the adept quality, but I feel that a character who takes the adept quality should also adopt a tradition or paradigm that they follow. I don't much care what it is, so long as they have one.
I personally feel that deliberately thrashing your magic rating with 'ware repeatedly is breaking that commitment to magic.
Posted by: djinni Jan 12 2007, 12:56 AM
| QUOTE (ornot) |
| I personally feel that deliberately thrashing your magic rating with 'ware repeatedly is breaking that commitment to magic. |
but that's assuming they wanted to be an adept in the first place.
it's not DnD, or Gurps.
Posted by: WhiskeyMac Jan 12 2007, 01:38 AM
I agree with ornot on the commitment to magic. It wouldn't make sense to find out that you're an adept and then just slowly put in 1 essence every time you got a new point of magic instead of making yourself a kick-ass adept instead. I think it's up to the particular GM but I fully endorse magic attribute caps for this specific reason. Abuse.
Posted by: farlanghn Jan 15 2007, 07:33 AM
Have you figured out what your Severe Allergy (Uncommon) is going to be yet?
Posted by: lorechaser Jan 15 2007, 04:00 PM
| QUOTE (WhiskeyMac) |
| I agree with ornot on the commitment to magic. It wouldn't make sense to find out that you're an adept and then just slowly put in 1 essence every time you got a new point of magic instead of making yourself a kick-ass adept instead. I think it's up to the particular GM but I fully endorse magic attribute caps for this specific reason. Abuse. |
>>>>>[Chummer, it's folks like you that keep mages in business, and voodoo in the streets. Magic's a tool, bub. Nothin' more, nothin' less. You keep babbling on about 'commitment to magic' and the 'special bond between a boy and his fetish' and it'll be elf poncers and corp-mages from here till the Seventh World. Once ya open yer eyes, and realize that all of us can benefit from a little Mana-infusion (with a mango topper), we'll finally get magic outta the mysterious forests, and in to the hands of the folks that need it.
Imagine it - yer dear ol' gran don't need Wired 3 and a Cerebral booster. But imagine if she could cast herself a couple of low level sustenance spells a day? Maybe a 'relieve aches n' pains' and then a levitate, for high stairs? Not to mention boostin' yer self just a touch above what everyone else has. I swear.]<<<<<
-The Chromed Hermetic (no relation) <03:03:03/09-03-72>
Posted by: djinni Jan 16 2007, 10:20 AM
| QUOTE (farlanghn @ Jan 15 2007, 02:33 AM) |
| Have you figured out what your Severe Allergy (Uncommon) is going to be yet? |
nothing really catches my eye the pregen character templates have "gold" as an allergy though that doesn't much make sense to me for a flaw, how often does one come in contact with it to justify 15 BP. but if I can't think of anything then I'll most likely take it.
I also haven't found anything that fits for those extra 20 BP in flaws.
Posted by: toturi Jan 16 2007, 03:12 PM
| QUOTE (Banaticus) | ||
Now that we've thoroughly hijacked this thread... We still have that problem of "efficiency" in character creation. It was why BeCKS was created so many years ago. To buy a skill up in game, it costs more and more every time you raise it, it's a factorial difference (*2, *3, *4, *5, etc.). But the first point of a skill during character creation costs exactly the same amount as the fourth point of that skill during character creation. |
Karma and how it is gained is a function of "roleplay" and the interaction of the present character with the game world and game mechanics. To start off, you are born - what karma has been "gained" by the PC at birth? What roleplaying was done? So how did you get the karma to get "elf" or "troll"? Are you Awakened? How did you get the karma to "buy" your Awakening(while you Awaken at sometime in your life, whether you have the potential to do so is determined at birth unless your GM is allowing Awakened qualities to be bought with karma)? What's that you say? Karma was accumulated in your PC's previous life? Even if I did believe in karma and reincarnation, then let's go back to the time where the very first metahumans walked the earth, where did they get their karma?
A background that has to be stretched to fit everything in is difficult to roleplay well(the fact that RP karma is only given once and 1 measly point besides is another non-chargen matter). A background that is highly plausible is easier to roleplay. So yes, I think that there has to be different tracks for character creation and character improvement and the efficiencies that the interaction of the different methods generate.
Posted by: Butterblume Jan 16 2007, 05:45 PM
Just a random thought: Fanpro Germany's biggest baby, 'das Schwarze Auge', the Dark Eye, has progressive costs at chargen, so higher skills and attributes cost more. They still fumbled, because they use another mechanic at chargen as during the game.
Still, I was dissapointed that SR4 had that old static system.
I have said it before, SR4 needs official karma based char generation rules.
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