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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Its new to me at least! (Old SR book discussion)
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 12 2007, 08:49 AM
So anyway yeah, since -I- never got a chance to discuss books like these with anyone before. You, dear readers, shall instead bear the burden! (even if it's just telling me to shut up and locking the thread)
I recently got my hands on a lot of 53 SR books. All of which are SR1 or SR2. Of the lot, I was happy to find only about 4 which are duplicates of ones I previously managed to aquire. (So I'll be keeping the copies in better shape. Back to E-bay with the rest of you!)
Anyway, off the bat. I'd definately highly recommend to anyone, that they pick up the Lone Star book. (Especially if, like me you never saw it before).
Prime Runners, I can definately see why people have a beef with that book. Out of the lot, I only recognized 3 names. None of em as anyone 'really big' that wasnt a dragon.
Corporate Security (Which I allready had) is another one I found really nifty and useful. Even though information in it is presented in other books. Corp Sec puts it all in one nice book and it doesnt take much to just update it to what ever version of SR your playing in.
Fields of Fire (Yet another duplicated) was also relatively decent.
Sprawl (Not Sprawl survival) is handy, as it gives various nifty little maps of various locations you can use. And ideas for others.
RAS, another nifty book that one as just about everyone knows.
SR Germany (Yet another dupe) I like it, some dont. Oh well.
There is still this massive slew of other books for me to go through yet, as well as the box sets of DMZ and some other one that I fail to currently recall). There are alot of others too that I allready have, and are mostly well known. Bug City, Threats, Paranormal Critters etc.
I am going to have fun poking at ones I didnt even know existed such as London (I had absolutely no clue this one was ever around). And just ones I havent had a chance to look at yet, such as the Tir books, the old street samurai catalogues and magic grimoire etc. Even the old SR2 book was nifty to poke at. It's interesting to me at least to see how the system changed. Like how between SR2 and SR3 the adept version of wired reflexes went from being two seperate powers (one to boost reflexes, the other to boost init) to just the one that ultimately cost you alot less. (And here I though 5 MP for Reflexes 3 was heafty.. )
I was wondering however, if there are any folk highly recommend overall while I'm still sorting through my new horde? Ones that ultimately are on the 'high recommendations' list for anyone to get ahold of?
I suppose in the end this is abit of a mirror to my earlier thread about recommended SR novels. Overall I -think- now the only book I'm missing is the old SR1 main book. Hell I've even got the old SR GM screens now too 
but certainly looking at gems like the Lone Star book, I cant help but wonder if perhaps I havent actually missed one or two others I dont yet have even now.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 12 2007, 08:55 AM
Aztlan comes to mind.
Oh, and congrats and good readin'. 
Posted by: Nemesis Jan 12 2007, 11:28 AM
If you don't have these already.......
Corporate Shadowfiles (The latest one is Coporate Download).
Underworld Source Book.
Threats (Didn't care too much for Threats 2 though).
Posted by: Grinder Jan 12 2007, 11:34 AM
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| I was wondering however, if there are any folk highly recommend overall while I'm still sorting through my new horde? |
I recommend Lone Star, Corporate Security, Atzlan and Sprawl Survival Guide to read first. They either have a lot of information or flair (or best: both) and are a good read.
Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 12 2007, 12:52 PM
Shadowbeat was excellent i thought. Definately look for that one. Dealt a whole lot with the media and had great flavor and rules for an offbeat kind of game. Or you could use it in your existing game. And it had some neat equipment.
Rigger Black Book was a well done book of toys that made riggers happy back in the day. Its great when you compare that to SR3...youll see some interesting differences.
SSC was a little thin for my tastes. Some of the shadowtalk was nice, nice additions, but i thought the RBB was put together better.
You saw Fields of Fire already, that was probably my favorite of the pure toy books. More in depth than the SSC, tho the SSC was indeed aimed on average at the more street level fellow rather than the 'military' type.
The grimoires were very useful for magical characters, but took a bit of reading, because i swear they were damn near like actual grimoires at times. 
damn, id love to get ahold of more of these again.
Edit: And Shadowtech. How could i forget that one. We were happy to get ahold of that, and we were even luckier to have a GM who handed it to us and said that if we needed help, to ask him. 
Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 12 2007, 02:36 PM
Shadowbeat did have some good rules in it for how good a piece of video or a story was. I used those rules, slightly varied, if the runners were doing survelliance or collecting blackmail material. The results would determine if they got a bonus for their efforts, or if they were using the material to further a run of their own, how effective it was as blackmail or whatever. That and it didn't hurt to be able to publish a story now and then to bring in some extra cash.
I've got most of the others mentioned here. I've got a couple of plastic storage crates in the basement: one for SR and, another for D&D. Keeps the material together pretty well, though sometimes they migrate around the house as I pull bit out to read.
Posted by: eidolon Jan 12 2007, 02:46 PM
Another vote for Shadowbeat. I'd add the Neo-Anarchist's books, you already like Lone Star, Universal Brotherhood just to be "in the know", oh man, how could I forget!!!! Your new assignment is to read Cybertechnology, front to back, five times. Only then will you have a proper grasp on what cyber does to a person. 
(Seriously, it changed the way I played and ran games.)
And congrats on the buy. Mind saying what you paid? I buy in lots when I can to minimize cost, but I'm so close to having everything (in English) that I'm better served by scoping out singles, sadly.
Posted by: Ryu Jan 12 2007, 05:21 PM
I´ll second the suggestion of "corporate shadowfiles". Very interesting read, and still good on the business SOP even if most factual information is outdated by now.
Posted by: Drraagh Jan 12 2007, 07:07 PM
One thing I felt that Shadowrun was lacking until the introduction of some of the new books (SOTA, SSG, etc) was the punk aspect of the cyberpunk genre Shadowrun was generally classified under. As such, I loved the Shadowbeat book as it gave a lot of behind the scenes gritty feel to it, much like the Chromebooks did for CP2020, though to this day, I feel CP2020 has more punk than SR in its canon, though each gaming session may be to different levels.
Anyway, other books I liked and feel might be a good read. It's in the SR1 core book, and has also been recreated in the First Run module, Food Fight. Part of me enjoys that because of the fact it actually lists various stuff one might find in a stuffer shack and has rules about breakage. Where else can you have have a Orange and Purple Chunky Powder coat your character because the guy with the shotgun missed you.
Also Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets and Cybertechnology are good reads. Cybertechnology has the Hatchetman writeup about his experiences with cybertech so you can get an idea about how some people might react to having their body replaced, and Portfolio is a great source for run ideas and various other sorts of topics.
Other than that, I would have to agree with the other comments on books.
Posted by: Lindt Jan 12 2007, 08:59 PM
I miss having PUNK in my cyberpunk. I try and add it as much as I can.
I should really try and pick up cybertechnology at some point, I keep being told its such a good read.
Posted by: BookWyrm Jan 12 2007, 09:08 PM
Check http://search.express.ebay.com/__Games-Puzzles_shadowrun_W0QQ_kwZQ22shadowrunQ22QQProductType42be380bZRolePlayingGame5e36a02e?_ipg=90 for any of the above-mentioned reccomendations.
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 12 2007, 09:45 PM
...and yet a third vote for Shadowbeat. For much of the same reasons as already mentioned. We used the performance rules for my character Leela when she was still a PC as well as the pix & punch rules for my reporter Lana Lane. SR3 unfortunately grouped artistic skills under Knowledge, but we went with the old active skills from the 'Beat for both Leela and Lana.
One nice thing in SR4, they made Artisan an active skill again.
My second choice would be the Rigger Black Book. Mine has since fallen apart into three pieces due to the heavy use it received when I was both playing and GMing.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 12 2007, 09:49 PM
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| I should really try and pick up cybertechnology at some point, I keep being told its such a good read. |
You should probably get two, so you have one that doesn't get wrecked when you're rubbing the other one ecstatically on your naked body.
I mean, uh, yeah, you should get that one .... it's really good.
Posted by: Moirdryd Jan 12 2007, 10:21 PM
Still happily digging my way through the vast library granted me by a friend a year or so ago. Lots of stuff from all edits... Though Cybertech is one i`m also looking for still..
Posted by: Tanka Jan 12 2007, 10:57 PM
Oh, man, Cybertechnology. What a book! Read it, love it. It's awesome.
Another vote for Universal Brotherhood. If that doesn't make you double take on a few shadows, then you ain't human, brother.
Bug City and Tir Tairngire are also damn fine reads, if you can get your hands on them.
Oh, and Seattle is far, far superior to New Seattle. And another vote for the Neo-Anarchist... books. You get to meet Cap before he became SysOp of Shadowland!
Ah, the memories... Maybe I should read it all over again.
Posted by: Moirdryd Jan 12 2007, 11:56 PM
Hmm not sure if I have bug City in my collection but I do have Tir Tairngire in PDF.... (which i`ve yet to read properly)
Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 13 2007, 12:20 AM
Tir Tairngire is an ok book, it's not so exciting as TERRIFYING. Immigration and tourism laws to give a runner nightmares.
Was there ever a book on the NAN? You'd think that would be pretty important because the island that is seattle is floating in the NAN.
Lone Star has some good info, for sure. I haven't read in a while. My GM didn't want me reading it because he presumably wanted to throw something or other at me.
Sprawl Guides is good for ideas, but it still can't beat a decent imagination.
Tir Nan Og? Tir Na Nog? I never read it the full way through because I thought "when are any of our games going to go there?" and lost interest.
Corp Shadowfiles was pretty boring. It was good that they went into the workings of corporations, seeing as they are such a large part of the game. But did anyone actually use the rules for determing run effects on fiscal quarters? *yawn*
Posted by: Moirdryd Jan 13 2007, 12:35 AM
Native American Nations Volumes 1 and 2 are both 2nd edit, but actually very info worthy as to the Nations and I think Shadows of North America also covers them with a neater overview if less info in depth.
One of my campaigns was meant to go to Tir Na Nog and I have had a few chars who originare from there. Perhaps the best was Knight who ran briefly in the Living in The Shadows threads here on Dumpshock (before I was a year without connection without warning, which sucked.)
Never used to Fiscal rules from Corp Shadowfiles, but the other info presented, as commented upon by the Chromed Accountant and others, has proved very useful for back stories behind runs and the reasons Johnsons do things.
Posted by: Ophis Jan 13 2007, 12:58 AM
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| RAS, another nifty book that one as just about everyone knows. |
Which one that? It doesn't ring any bells with me.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 13 2007, 12:59 AM
Renraku Arcology: Shutdown.
~J
Posted by: Ophis Jan 13 2007, 01:00 AM
Ah of course my brain appears have fallen out. Which is a shame as i need to make change...
Posted by: Thane36425 Jan 13 2007, 01:16 AM
I used to play heavily cybered characters until Cybertechnology and the Hatchetman write up. Now I mostly play mages or adepts.
Bug City is good too. I've played a couple of campaigns within the walls
The Native Armerican Nations books were hard to track down even shortly after printing, but they had good material. One of them had an adventure where you hunted a toxic shaman. Great transition for bounty hunter type characters into running.
The Elven nations are strict, but so is England. The rules and regulations are just staggering. But they make it so tempting with sky high bounties on things like ghouls and other creatures. They're high for a reason: you pretty much can't have any weapons or magic.
Posted by: Fix-it Jan 13 2007, 02:48 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 13 2007, 12:59 AM) |
| Renraku Arcology: Shutdown. ~J |
FTW. Thread Ovar.
RA:S was the epitome of SR. It is SR between two pieces of cardboard.
It would not be more shadowrun-ey if they had a guy run a marathon with it. at night.
/see what I did there?
Posted by: bofh Jan 13 2007, 03:00 AM
So is there a trading space here somewhere that I'm not seeing? I have a few extras from a couple of e-bay purchases and while I'm running 3rd ed, I wouldn't be adverse to getting the last couple of books to fill out my 1st and 2nd ed shelves (specifically Renraku).
I have a listing of all the books over here: http://shadowrun.schelin.org/php/listing.php
The extras are:
7105 - Paranormal Animals of NA
7109 - Shadowbeat
7204 - Germany
7208 - Guide to Real Life
7211 - Tir na nOg
7219 - Target Matrix (x2)
7325 - Missions
7330 - Corp Punish
7903 - Grimoire
7904 - VR 2.0
7909 - Matrix
10664 - SotA 2063
Carl
Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 13 2007, 03:25 AM
| QUOTE (Fix-it) |
| RA:S was the epitome of SR. |
A sealed complex, run by an insane AI, where the inhabitants have been placed into a hierarchy of color-coded groups, and strange robotic deathtraps roam the corridors at random?
That's http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=19, not Shadowrun.
The Computer Is Your Friend.
Are You Happy?
Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 13 2007, 03:37 AM
| QUOTE (Tanka) |
| Another vote for Universal Brotherhood. If that doesn't make you double take on a few shadows, then you ain't human, brother. Bug City and Tir Tairngire are also damn fine reads, if you can get your hands on them. |
...agreed, UB and Bug City rock, excellent settings for really scary runs.
TT...neyah...but I have my reasons, particularly since the "City of Roses" became the "City of Pointy Eared Hosers".
(I liked my version of P'Town better).
On the flip side, I also liked Corporate Shadowfiles. some pretty good info on the 2050's Corp scene. THe detailed profiles and ratings of the AAA Megas was nice as was the structure for designing Megacorps of your very own.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 13 2007, 04:17 AM
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Jan 12 2007, 10:25 PM) | ||
A sealed complex, run by an insane AI, where the inhabitants have been placed into a hierarchy of color-coded groups, and strange robotic deathtraps roam the corridors at random? That's http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=19, |
Fixed that for you.
Some day, I will run Yellow Clearance Black Box Blues in Shadowrun.
~J
Posted by: Fix-it Jan 13 2007, 05:11 AM
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) | ||
A sealed complex, run by an insane AI, where the inhabitants have been placed into a hierarchy of color-coded groups, and strange robotic deathtraps roam the corridors at random? That's http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=19, not Shadowrun. The Computer Is Your Friend. Are You Happy? |
that's how it ends up. how it gets that way is part of what I meant.
/also like paranoia.
//anyone wanna play a game?
Posted by: Grinder Jan 13 2007, 07:05 AM
| QUOTE (Moirdryd) |
| Native American Nations Volumes 1 and 2 are both 2nd edit, but actually very info worthy as to the Nations and I think Shadows of North America also covers them with a neater overview if less info in depth. |
Are you sure? Thought both were released during SR1-times.
Posted by: SL James Jan 13 2007, 07:11 AM
They were. Published in 1991.
Posted by: Moirdryd Jan 14 2007, 01:20 AM
I wads fortunate enough to be gifted both NAN books, they are very lovely.
Posted by: SL James Jan 14 2007, 01:48 AM
Bradstreet artwork will make anything lovely.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 16 2007, 05:43 AM
| QUOTE (eidolon) |
| And congrats on the buy. Mind saying what you paid? I buy in lots when I can to minimize cost, but I'm so close to having everything (in English) that I'm better served by scoping out singles, sadly. |
Yeah i"m abi tlate on the reply to this, I know. Been quite sick IRL lately with the flu. Mostly over it now though..
Eh, after shipping, import tax, conversion rate etc was all out of the way bout 10 CND a book. Not the best of deals perhaps. But I sure as hell wasnt going to find any of this stuff locally. Not to mention one important fact. Almost everything is in good to mint condition.
That wasnt even stated. That supprised the hell out of me. Only one book has any serious damage (The cover has come comipletely loose). The SR1 and SR2 GM screens are rather worn around the edges etc. A few covers have seen abit of wear. But as it was, the few duplicates I wound up with, I wound up keeping from this lot and using them to replace my own copies. Which were not quite in as good shape for the most part.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 16 2007, 05:53 AM
Anyway, I'm -still- wading through everything. I've pretty much shunted every mission book ever made for SR to the side for now (if i'm missing one or two I might actually be supprised)
Also when you really take into account -all- the books. Its alot more than the stated 53+2 box sets. Course I didnt expect the second box which was for Denver, to actually have so much information on Dever, I thought it was more like the DMZ box.
Its really abit of an information overload. And I'll definately make sure to read the books folk mentioned. Since I figgured i'd leave the stuff like shadowbeat and the old cyber/magic books for much much later. I'd sortof assumed they were abi tmore like the SR2 core book I got with the lot, where it was really mostly just rules (Though I still loved the fluff that was in the SR2 core book)
I think now I"m just missing SR1 core and a small handful of others. If anyone's interested though I can do up a list of all the doubles i've got now. Had a few more than I thought I would but off the top of my head they include:
Ivy and Chrome
Germany
Underworld
and I THINK I wound up with two copies of Dunkies secrets. I coulda sworn I did though Icant seem to find the other atm. So I'm either immagining it or the drop bears have stolen it.
Posted by: Grinder Jan 16 2007, 10:10 AM
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| So I'm either immagining it or the drop bears have stolen it. |
Our Ninja Drop Bears need training, sorry.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 16 2007, 10:20 AM
| QUOTE (Grinder) | ||
Our Ninja Drop Bears need training, sorry. |
*shakes fist* Damn you Drop Bears!
Hmm this also makes me think. I really should check out what if any difference there is in critters presented in Paranormal Critters and Paranomals of Europe.
I'm also supprised that that kinda stuff was never really fully converted. Hopefully, especialy given the fact that the systems are considerably different now, they'll do a whole new paracritter book for SR4. That was the one thing I allways hated. I wanted to throw in the odd paras at runners. But... you only ever had a small handful to work with (Or at least I did, lacking the para book previously)
And now it's the same thing again in SR4. Granted I could make em all up as I go along but thats really a crapload of work I'd rather buy a book for. Now and then I'll still cook up 'something special'. But I do like books like that where I can decide.. I want paras! and be able to pull a few nasties out of a book. Especially if say.. I have to do it on the fly because I put in a 'Paranormal Research' wing on the blueprints. ANd the runners on the fly suddenly decide they want and are going to check it out. Even though it's not actually having anythign to do with the run at all.
It's like having "Massive military arsenal' on the building blueprints... without the arsenal book to go along with it. Sure you can fill it up with the generic crap out of the book. But then one starts to wonder just why the hell all these megas that make their own guns are buying all their stock from Ares. And why Ares doesnt as a result rule them all?
Posted by: Grinder Jan 16 2007, 10:23 AM
Don't yell and shake your fists when Drop Bears are around, as a friendly advice.
Iirc, Running Wild will become the new critter book for SR4. Don't know when it will be released, possibly some time in the future. But it shouldn't be a big problem to convert some critters from the Paranormal books (which have different ones, look out for the windlings in Europe, btw) and use them in SR4.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 16 2007, 11:06 AM
Might not be a big problem. What with the SR3 to SR4 conversion guide. But it is a fair bit of work. And I'm too lazy to do it all myself
Posted by: SL James Jan 17 2007, 02:04 AM
| QUOTE (Grinder @ Jan 16 2007, 04:23 AM) |
| Iirc, Running Wild will become the new critter book for SR4. |
Maybe. It was supposed to be the third edition critters book.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 17 2007, 02:14 AM
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| It was supposed to be the third edition critters book. |
Not quite. The SR3 Critter book was included with the GM Screen. Running Wild was not intended to be a Critter book as much as an expansion that opened up more options for Players as well as GMs as far as Critters are concerned.
Posted by: tisoz Jan 17 2007, 04:29 AM
| QUOTE (Kesslan @ Jan 16 2007, 04:20 AM) |
| I really should check out what if any difference there is in critters presented in Paranormal Critters and Paranomals of Europe. I'm also supprised that that kinda stuff was never really fully converted. Hopefully, especialy given the fact that the systems are considerably different now, they'll do a whole new paracritter book for SR4. |
I hope they expand the table of normal critters to some the PCs would find useful shapechanging into or transforming the opposition into.
Things like poisonous snakes, various size and characteristics birds, chimps, monkeys, gorillas. Turtles, cows and guinea pigs. Extinct animals if they care to get really creative. Raptors, dodos.
At least cover all the totem animals for those that want to honor the mentor.
Posted by: RunnerPaul Jan 17 2007, 08:22 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| The SR3 Critter book was included with the GM Screen. |
More of a critter pamphlet than a book, really.
Isn't it still available as a free PDF download?
Posted by: Grinder Jan 17 2007, 11:15 PM
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||
Maybe. It was supposed to be the third edition critters book. |
It was never released and instead pushed back to be releases after SR4, so I guess it wil become the 4th edition critter book.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 18 2007, 08:06 AM
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) | ||
More of a critter pamphlet than a book, really. Isn't it still available as a free PDF download? |
Yeah I have it. Both in the free PDF format and the version with the GM screen. But again. It's as Paul said. More of a pamphlet compared to the SR2 books which are actually pretty thick books at that.
And having stats for 'basic critters' woudl be nice. You dont even need to put in fluff for those because if you really want to know. You can just look up the real world beasties. It's just the paranormal animals and anything specific to the 6th world you'd have to put in fluff for.
And that's really what I'd like to see. Even if they broke it up into several books. Paranormals of North America, South America, Europe, Australia, Russia, Orient, Africa etc.
Actually make em decent sized books with stats for basic and common real world critters, then fluf and stats for 6th world paranormal animals.
It would even make creating a realistic hybrid easy. Hmm what happens if you crossed a wolf with a baselisk? Compare the physical stats adjust them to some seeimingly decent half way point or something. Take a few paracritter powers to carry over. ANd voila! Bioengineered freak thing to throw at the PCs. Wooohoo!
Posted by: SL James Jan 19 2007, 01:10 AM
| QUOTE (Grinder) | ||||
It was never released and instead pushed back to be releases after SR4, so I guess it wil become the 4th edition critter book. |
At this rate, my guess is that it will be the Fifth Edition critter book.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 19 2007, 06:28 AM
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||||||
At this rate, my guess is that it will be the Fifth Edition critter book. |
I see your 5th edition and raise you 8th.
Posted by: eidolon Jan 19 2007, 04:30 PM
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1879
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2007, 06:03 PM
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| I see your 5th edition and raise you 8th. |
5.125th edition? Nah, WotC are the only one's with the balls to try that.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 05:28 AM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||
5.125th edition? Nah, WotC are the only one's with the balls to try that. |
No no. I'm saying it wont show up till 8th edition.
Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 05:31 AM
But how do I get a rigger 3 revised PDF?! That's what I wanna know!
Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2007, 06:17 AM
| QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jan 20 2007, 04:31 PM) |
| But how do I get a rigger 3 revised PDF?! That's what I wanna know! |
Well, you might try http://www.fanprodirect.com/index.php. I just checked, and they have it in stock.
Can't access that last link now, but you might also try http://battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1516.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 06:35 AM
The internet is your friend when it comes to old books.
I'm still drooling over all the old hardcopies I manged to get via ebay
Posted by: SL James Jan 20 2007, 07:34 AM
| QUOTE (Kesslan) | ||||||||
I see your 5th edition and raise you 8th. |
Your comment is amusing only insofar as how far out of context it is.
I was being dead serious.
Posted by: Kesslan Jan 20 2007, 07:37 AM
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||||||||||
Your comment is amusing only insofar as how far out of context it is. I was being dead serious. |
I dont doubt it.
Which is why my reply is only partially serious.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 22 2007, 05:24 PM
| QUOTE (Kesslan) | ||||
No no. I'm saying it wont show up till 8th edition. |
I know what you meant.
Hmmm, maybe I need more smileys.
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